We have examined the Scriptures and come to different conclusions. This is the beauty of the Word of God. Let us all keep learning and growing in His word.
I will leave you with some final thoughts and questions concerning these particular topics.
The information concerning the two separate and distinct accounts of the creation of man and the separate instructions given in Genesis 1:26-29 from that given in Genesis 2:4-7 can clearly account for the creation of mankind in general and the creation of Adam in particular.
If we are all ancestors of the singular man Adam you say accounts for Genesis 1:26-29 AND Genesis 2:4-7, how have we such distinct and separate races upon the earth after 6000 years of interbreeding?
One race mating with the same race does not produce another race or all the races; neither does migration.
If we are all derived from one man, than we would only have one nation to speak of because we would all be of the same lineage! How then do we in the third dispensation of time (when we are all with God again) still find a distinction between the house of Israel and the other nations? In Revelations 21:24, we find the different Kings of the nations bringing their glory and honour inside the gates? (i.e. they live outside the gates; and we are all with God at this point in time.
We are ALL of the family of God, i.e. of one blood ( Acts 17:26, 1John 1:7); but all are NOT of the same lineage.
If God makes a distinction between the lineage of Adam and the nation of Israel from every other NATION upon the earth, shouldn't we!
D.J., so I understand that you see two distinct accounts of creation of mankind (one for the other races & the other Adam & Even from which comes the Divine line to Christ). Well, I have tried my best, but can only see one account of creation: the Gen 1 account shows what God did during the 'Days of Creation' & the Gen 2 account gives more detail of the creation of man, his placement, his meeting the other creation of animals & also his new companion in life. So I can't take this point further as our understanding is clearly divergent, though your explanation for the 'different instructions' given can now be seen. To restate, I see both creation accounts as pertaining to one creation of man & not multiple; the manner of writing & repetition in part, just doesn't convince me of anything but the one creation.
I can understand & agree with your remarks on the 'Ages' as referenced to 2 Pet 3:5-7. In reference to Satan & specifically to Gen 1:2, I understand it is commonly assumed that the Earth became "confusion & emptiness" as a result of Satan's fall to Earth & that is acceptable. But since it's not specifically mentioned as such, & Satan being found at Eden doesn't necessarily give proof to support that belief, we should allow for some other force, whether from astral bodies or deterioration over the eons, that may have caused this deterioration to this once perfect World. Though, I can see that when evil is joined to something good & perfect, the result is evil (i.e. the absence of complete purity).
Otherwise, your remarks are appreciated & on the whole concurred with. Thank you for your time in these important subjects.
At least, we're referring to the same Book, so one hurdle is omitted, but we have to deal with the evidence from Scripture first.
Then further to your Page 2, in reference to the giants, their survival post-Flood & their progeny would be difficult to comment on, since the foundation is not agreed upon. So with just a quick response to that: Is the mention of giants in those days a direct reference to the sons of God mating with humans or were there giants prior to that occasion? ( Gen 6:4). Did not the offspring of the giant-human mating produce "mighty men of renown'? Even if the whole Earth was not flooded, but only in a specific locale, it remains that God destroyed every living substance from the Earth (Gen7:23). And, how far back can the lineage be traced for the Caananite, Perizzite, Hivite & the Hittite? To Noah or to a post-Adamic race? If to Noah: what's the proof? If to another race of people: which race?
So my point is not to discredit your beliefs but to show that insufficient evidence is given to formulate anything outside the parameters of the Word. We can't assume something because it justifies or gives meaning to something else that may be evident. Why? Because our hypotheses may well be completely out of kilter thereby producing an erroneous outcome. I realize I don't have the answers, but I know for sure, that I would rather declare ignorance than to surmise/assume/calculate on certain 'facts' that cannot be clearly supported in Scripture.
D.J., as always, I appreciate your comments & the time you've given to writing them. Yes, we all seem to have that extra time on our hands especially during these uncertain days.
I won't dispute the use of the word "flesh", as you've shown it in Hebrew, simply because I've never examined this properly. So, I will accept your explanation & application of that word. Yet, in Gen 6:18-20, it is specifically declared who & what were to be carried in the Ark (i.e. the eight humans & two of every animal, male & female). I wonder how you can understand that 'other humans', not of the Adamic lineage, would also be included amongst these, seeing that the whole reason for the 'escape in the Ark' was for the destruction of all remaining, unbelieving humans (vv 5-8)?
When I consider Scripture, as with such accounts that are not fully explained, I try to get to the very first mention of it (as here in Genesis) & progress through the Word to find more detail on the type of people (& animals) in question. Of course, the enquiry can sometimes be fruitless, simply because insufficient information is given, so my search ends as no other material is forthcoming.
Since you too are reading from the same Scripture & I'm sure you are not privy to other material on this subject, could it be that you're viewing the Genesis account the other way, i.e. backwards rather than forwards? To explain: if you have a belief that there must have been other races of (non-Adamic) people in existence since creation, then to support that belief, you would have to also assume that it was not just eight people & animals that went into the Ark, but other humans too, or else how could we have such a diverse range of humanity. I ask, can we make such assumptions when the Scripture gives no further light on them? Are those assumptions even believable then, since we can't see it in Scripture?
Another popular theory among Bible students concerning the flood of Noah's time is offered to explain the fact that not only did the different ethnic races of humans survive the flood, but that the "giants" ( Genesis 6:4) that were upon the earth before the flood, also survived the flood. Giants are the product of fallen Angels mating with humans. They survived because Scripture states that they were upon the earth "also after that" ( Genesis 6:4), hence, after the flood of Noah's time occurred. More proof lies in the fact that David fought the GIANT Goliath approximately 2500 years later. This theory explains that the flood of Noah's time was only localized to that particular area in which Noah and the rest of the extended families of Adam lived, and migrated into. The flood was sent unto this specific area that was originally inhabited by the offspring of the fallen angels (rendered "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2, 4), and their families. They initially populated this particular land because their instruction was to come expressly unto the daughters of Adam, to "take them wives of all which they chose" ( Genesis 6:2), so that they could "bare children to them" ( Genesis 6:4), thereby intermixing and corrupting the seed line of the Messiah to the point of no return. These "giants," and their offspring, eventually may have settled outside the flood area, and subsequently were not a part of that destruction, also look at Genesis 12:6, 13:7, 15:19 - 21.
I believe that either, both, or a combination of these, and other possible scenarios that can be backed by Scripture, are the reason why all races are on the earth today.
I did not answer one of your initial questions concerning Noah and the Ark and who we are descendants from if only 8 souls aboard the Ark survived ( 1 Peter 3:20). Disclaimer: This might get lengthy and bring in other topics that may not be a part of mainstream Christian conclusions, so to speak. I am giving you a lot of info. I have a lot of time on my hands lately. Thanks for reading.
There are various ideas about how all races are still on the earth if the flood of Noah's time destroyed all life. What does Scripture say?
I would start by turning to Genesis 6:19. "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female."
Our Father is letting us know that not only were there the eight Adamic souls ( 1Peter 3:20) instructed to enter the ark; Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives ( Genesis 6:18), but the command by God was to also bring two of "every living thing of ALL FLESH," which would include the other races of humans, on to the ark with him. They were to be brought "male and female" so that a seed line or remnant of these different races would remain after the flood.
The word "flesh" is derived from the Hebrew word "basar" (baw-sawr). It is used 27 times in the Book of Genesis. Only once is the word not identified with a human being in the Book of Genesis, look at Genesis 9:4. Of the 271 total times the word "flesh" is mentioned in the O.T., the Hebrew word "basar" (baw-sawr) is utilized for 257 of them, and is almost always representing human beings. When the word "flesh" does not represent man, it is easily identified as food; hence meat of some sort, whether living, raw, or cooked, as it does for the first time in ( Ex 12:8), also look at ( Ex 16:3, 8, 12, Lev 4:11, 18:7, etc.).
The earth became a ruin, and the heavens ceased to give light, but neither were created by God in that manner because we know that; "as for God, His way is perfect" ( 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalms 18:30), also look at ( Deuteronomy 32:4, Jeremiah 10:12). Everything created by God is flawless and pure in how it was created, and there is nothing that is not subject to this fact. In other words, God would not create an earth void and formless and a black heaven to spend the next six days fixing what He messed up. God forbid!
Concerning the three heaven and earth AGES; reference will again be pointed toward the entire chapter of 2nd Peter chapter 3. This might give you a clearer understanding of these separate DISPENSATIONS OF TIME (not the formation of three separate heavens and earths). For reference I will again state that "the world that then was" ( 2 Peter 3:6) refers to the first dispensation of time. "The heavens and earth which are now" ( 2 Peter 3:7) refers to the second dispensation of time (the time we are presently living in from Adam until now). And "a new heavens and a new earth" ( 2 Peter 3:13) refer to the time period that all God fearing humans are waiting for; also look at Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:12, Revelations 21:1.
My question concerning Satan brings into light the three dispensations of time; as Scripture would be most difficult to understand without comprehension of them.
The fall of Satan happened in the first earth and heaven age and was the reason for the end of that particular time period. Information regarding this can be found (as you stated) in Isaiah 14:12-20, Isaiah 45:18, 19, Jeremiah 4:22-29, and Ezekiel 28:12-19, as they are descriptive figurative statements revealing him to us. Not a page of God's word could be turned without the use of figurative language; which is employed to emphasize a truth and reveal a deeper understanding of the topic being discussed.
Therefore, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1. That was the first earth age.
Found in first half of Genesis 1:2 is the result of the end of the first dispensation of time (due to the rebellion of Satan); hence, the earth was (became) without form and void.
Found in the second half of Genesis 1:2 is the first act of the second dispensation of time; hence, the Spirit of God moving upon the waters.
I will attempt to be less confusing. I apologize for possibly trying to give too much information.
There are two accounts of the creation of man. The first account is found in Genesis 1:26-29. The second account can be found in Genesis 2:4-7.
Genesis 1:26-29 is the 6th day account of the creation of the different races that make up mankind, both male and female. The blessings and instructions given in Genesis 1:28 were given to those particular people.
Genesis 2:4-7 is the 6th day account of the creation of the specific man Adam. In Genesis 2:7, God gives us detail as to HOW both Adam and ALL of mankind are formed by Him (from the dust of the ground), but these verses concern only the particular man Adam. Genesis 2:15-17 are the instructions given to the man Adam that are different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind. Adam was that particular man chosen by God to "till the ground" ( Genesis 2:5) and be a farmer in God's Garden; and try to resist Satan.
Genesis 2:21-23 is the formation of Eve FROM Adam. This is not creation of mankind, both "male and female" as found in Genesis 1:28, which concerns all of the races. This particular lineage is very special for all of mankind. It begins with the divine act of our heavenly Father taking a "rib" from Adam and creating Eve (one from one + the Lord God) and ends with the divine act of the Holy Spirit through Mary bringing about the promised birth ( Genesis 3:15) of the Lord and Savior of all the earth (one from one + the Holy Spirit) ( Isaiah 7:14).
And to your question: "If the beginning of the earth was the first seven days of creation found in Genesis 1:2 - 2:4, then when did the fall of Satan occur?" This question is moot. There will always be theories when Satan's fall occurred. It could have been at some time after the creation of the angelic host ( Isa 14:12-15), maybe after God's creative Work had ended. It may have been according to the type given in Ezek 28:12-17, when Satan was already in Eden & from thence he fell into sin; or even in ( Rev 12:7-9) where Satan & his angels were cast out of Heaven to the Earth after Jesus ascended to the Father (though this option wouldn't work, as Satan was already active way before this time on Earth). So, I have to plead ignorance to your question, as the Scriptures don't give me a clear answer, though if compelled, I would lean towards the Isaiah description.
D.J., thank you for your response. I will still go back to Gen 1:28 for clarification, as this verse seems to be where my misunderstanding lies. Since you stated that, "The instructions given to Adam are completely different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind", I could only assume that there were some other instructions given to the rest of us. However, you say that the instructions in Gen 1:28 also applies to us, hence I couldn't work out, & still can't, what these other 'completely different instructions' are, since Gen 1:28 applies to both Adam & Even & us. So this still remains confusing. Hence, my mind got carried away, that if there were other instructions to other people, then who were they, if not the progeny of our first parents? Then the rest of your remarks on your Page 1 I would agree with, if both Adam & us received the same instructions & not different ones.
And I noted your comments in your Page 2. However, my comments to which you referenced, only applied to my wonder as to those 'different instructions given to us', then your further comments (page 2) had no direct bearing to them, & therefore I would agree with them. Your reference to the "three heaven & earth ages", I would say refer to the sky, universe & earth, rather than to the Heaven of God's Abode. Is that what you meant?
In addressing your comment mentioning that God would not properly be representing all races; I will state that God chose Adam and his lineage to bring forth, umbilical cord to umbilical cord, the Savior of the world ( Genesis 3:15). That promise by our heavenly Father made this particular lineage the most important lineage to ever walk on the face of the planet. All other peoples and nations mentioned in the Bible are only due to their interaction, good or bad, ( Isaiah 10:5) with God's chosen people and the nation of Israel.
We are all children of God, blessed by Him, and given freewill to believe whatever we want!
On a side note, you state that Adam and Eve were made "in the image of God." The PLURAL words of God stating "in OUR image, after OUR likeness" ( Genesis 1:27) is the intention of God to make the mortal features of mankind to be a physical reflection of God and the angels. We are to be a representative figure of what we looked like in the 1st Dispensation of time. We are an illusion of that spiritual body, but delivered unto these flesh bodies in order to be tried and tested by God by the very freewill He grants unto us. How could God the Father and His only begotten Son know us beforehand if the first time we came into existence was in these flesh bodies in this 2nd Dispensation of time? The answer is simple; God "did foreknow" ( Rom 8:29) each and every one of us because we were all there in the 1st Dispensation of time. The only One made in the true image of God is His only begotten Son ( John 5:37, John 10:30John 14:7, John 14:9, Colossians 1:14, Colossians 1:15. The clear understanding that there are 3 heaven and earth ages can be found in 2 Peter 3:6, 2 Peter 3:7, 2 Peter 3:13.
Question If the beginning of the earth was the first seven days of creation found in Genesis 1:2 - 2:4, then when did the fall of Satan occur?
I appreciate your feedback concerning the creation of Adam and Eve.
In reply to your first question, I believe that was answered in the original post. Scripture states that God created mankind on the 6th day, both male and female. God then B-L-E-S-S-E-D them, and said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and RE-plenish the earth, and subdue it. ( Genesis 1:26, Genesis1:27, Genesis 1:28). These are the instructions given to the rest of mankind. We are clearly neither insignificant nor are we worthless in His sight. We are all children of God with power given by Him to choose for ourselves who or what we want to believe. God makes the choice even easier: Be a part of His family of everlasting life or be a part of Satan's family of death.
Your phrase "or later" in regards to creation after the 6th day, I would point to Genesis 2:1, Genesis 2:2, and Genesis 2:3, which states that God FINISHED all of His creative work by the end of the 6th day; mankind being the last and greatest (and most confused) creative accomplishment.
I do not account for the existence of "cavemen." Scripture does not leave room for evolution. God states that He "created" ( Genesis 1:27) man. You and I were born, not created, as Adam, Eve, and the other Patriarchs and Matriarchs of the races (i.e. genealogy, Luke 3:23 - 39). Have we evolved from Adam?
Concerning a race or races of "sinless" people out there in the world I would point to Scripture found in Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22.
DJ, you've got me thinking over this, so pardon my further question: if all this existed as you suggest (i.e. Adam in Eden & the others in various parts of the world), then what happened at the Flood & subsequent to its devastating result? Was the Flood contained locally, or was it a global flood? If global (by all indications it was: Gen 6:17), then what of the future of those 'others'? Possibly, a second Ark? And if I'm here walking the Earth today, who are my ancestors, since I've not come out of Adam, Noah & his descendants? I'm getting more despondent & fearful as I consider this proposition & the possibility of its reality, & this would affect many reading these comments.
DJ, you present an interesting view of creation. You mentioned: "The instructions given to Adam are completely different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind". So assuming that there were 'other creations' of the human species on Earth at the same time (or later), what are these instructions that were given to them? If these are not recorded for us, could we then be just insignificant or worthless people in His Sight, only here for populating the Earth?
If we account for the existence of 'cave men' (& others) via this assumption, then I wonder why Adam & Eve were made in the image of God, with His Qualities & Traits, while these cave people's appearance & lifestyle, as we're led to believe, resembled more like animals?
Also, can we also assume that these 'others' did not sin as Adam & Eve did & so we might in fact have races of people right now who are sinless in the world? If this is so, shouldn't the Bible at least account for these other people, their temptations to sin, & God's dealing with them? It seems rather strange that God would only speak about Adam & Eve (because through them the Saviour would eventually come), but neglect about the state of the others. Then again, maybe God focused on Adam & his progeny for obvious reasons, but cared little for the rest of us. Why should we even need the Gospel to be proclaimed to us, since we may not need it because of our state, or for God's little care for us.
You raise some serious matters that can have frightening impact on our lives present & future.
Lance, Reply to the question concerning the wife of Cain;
Cain found his wife because Adam and Eve were not the only two people living on earth at that time.
( Genesis 1:26 - 28) states that on the 6th day God created mankind, BOTH male and female, blessed them, and told them to be fruitful and multiply, RE-plenish the earth, subdue it, and have dominion over every living thing on it.
God also created Adam on the 6th day. Adam, however, was not told to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. Adam was put in a garden in Eden ( Genesis 2:7, 8) completely by himself ( Genesis 2:18, 1st Timothy 2:13). The instructions given to Adam were to dress the garden and to keep it ( Genesis 2:15). Adam was a farmer, and the animals brought to him in ( Genesis 2:19 - 20) were utilized for that particular purpose. The instructions given to Adam are completely different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind because God chose Adam to stand against the serpent in the garden, and God chose the lineage of Adam to bring forth the Savior of the world. (It is interesting to note that unlike Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc., who are all stated as being faithful or righteous, that is nowhere stated of Adam; but it may be implied, as God did choose him).
The Bible uses translated words such as "peoples," "nations," "heathen," and "gentiles" to define these people as "foreign" or, in other words, a different lineage than Adam. The reason Cain found a wife in the land of Nod, east of Eden ( Genesis 4:16) is because the other races of people created by God on the 6th day were living on the earth, reproducing, and having dominion over it. It is interesting to note that for over 6000 years of marriages between the races of the world, those same races are still very much distinguishable......and ALL are blessed through the perfect plan of God, ( Genesis 1:28 12:2, 3, 26:4)
As to why the earth was being RE-plenished by God, look at ( 2nd Peter 3:5 - 7, 13).
(third comment): So those early sacrifices were only a shadow of the Perfect, Sinless, Lamb of God (Jesus Christ); i.e. an animal's death could never fully atone as a substitutionary payment for sin - it was only temporary till God's provision of HIS Lamb. (see Heb 9:6-28 for this). So Jesus, the Lamb of God (God's Word) became our substitution in death & our separation from God for all eternity. If Jesus had not come we would all go to hell & deserving of it. But "in due time" ( Rom 5:6), He came to give His Life on our behalf, so for ALL WHO BELIEVE, they would not perish in hell but have everlasting life ( Jn 3:16). But if Jesus remained dead in the tomb, then we would have no worthwhile sacrifice & we would still be guilty of our sins. But we know, that Jesus rose from the dead showing His Victory over the power of death & Satan, & God accepted His payment for our sins & so justified us ( Rom 4:25). Justification = Just as if we had never sinned. This only can come through Jesus.
(from previous comment No 1). You may know that in the Old Testament, God's people, the Israelites (Jews), had to perform various sacrifices, along with observance of days & various other instructions (see Book of Exodus & Leviticus). Normally, payment for our sin (any sin) against God is death, but in His Mercy, God instituted these sacrifices and given to remind the people that for their sin, they had to make offerings by sacrificing an unblemished animal (lambs, bulls, sheep, doves, etc.) to God. The priests did this on behalf of the people. God accepted their sacrifice but we know that this system was temporal until the appearing of God's Gift of His Word made human ( Jn 1:14). (see next comment No 3).
Felix, so I've given you the meaning of Jesus Christ's Name & His incarnation (i.e. Word of God coming to Earth as a man to give God's Message & to give His Life for man's sins). You ask for more info, but you don't mention specifics. So I'll write further: Many people of different religions understand that Christians believe in three gods because they don't understand (& we ourselves can't fully comprehend the mystery of Almighty God). But in the Bible, God has shown us Himself throughout the ages as only One God ( Isaiah 43-45 often mentions God speaking as being only One). But God has revealed that He brings forth Commands & Words for His people, & He also sends out His Spirit to do His bidding on Earth (e.g. empower the prophets to prophesy, to direct worship to God, to work miracles, etc). So this is ONE God, but revealed to us in His Fullness: God, His Word & His Spirit. If one aspect of God is missing, then God wouldn't be God. (see next comment).
(Rest of comment). Thus Jesus Christ = The Saviour Who is Anointed. Only Jesus could be given this Name & Title together: no one else could ever fill this role of giving of His Life for the sins of mankind. Even though, the word 'Yeshua' or Joshua, is the Hebrew word for 'Jesus", a Joshua of any period of time could never have the 'Christos' attached to his name. So, Jesus Christ is referred to as the Son of the Living God. We know that God is One & is a Spirit Being, so He can't bear offspring; so by offering of Himself for the payment of mankind's sins (as man can't pay at all for his sin), He sent forth His Word ( Jn 1:1-14) clothed in humanity for our sakes. Need more info?
Felix, I'm unsure whether you want to know more about the One called Christ, or the origin of the name. So, the latter first, the word Christ is Christos in Greek; & Masiah (Messiah) in Hebrew & both mean, "one who is anointed". Jesus, of course, means "he who delivers/rescues; Mt 1:21 "He shall SAVE His people from their sins". (Rest of this comment next)
We have examined the Scriptures and come to different conclusions. This is the beauty of the Word of God. Let us all keep learning and growing in His word.
I will leave you with some final thoughts and questions concerning these particular topics.
The information concerning the two separate and distinct accounts of the creation of man and the separate instructions given in Genesis 1:26-29 from that given in Genesis 2:4-7 can clearly account for the creation of mankind in general and the creation of Adam in particular.
If we are all ancestors of the singular man Adam you say accounts for Genesis 1:26-29 AND Genesis 2:4-7, how have we such distinct and separate races upon the earth after 6000 years of interbreeding?
One race mating with the same race does not produce another race or all the races; neither does migration.
If we are all derived from one man, than we would only have one nation to speak of because we would all be of the same lineage! How then do we in the third dispensation of time (when we are all with God again) still find a distinction between the house of Israel and the other nations? In Revelations 21:24, we find the different Kings of the nations bringing their glory and honour inside the gates? (i.e. they live outside the gates; and we are all with God at this point in time.
We are ALL of the family of God, i.e. of one blood ( Acts 17:26, 1John 1:7); but all are NOT of the same lineage.
If God makes a distinction between the lineage of Adam and the nation of Israel from every other NATION upon the earth, shouldn't we!
I can understand & agree with your remarks on the 'Ages' as referenced to 2 Pet 3:5-7. In reference to Satan & specifically to Gen 1:2, I understand it is commonly assumed that the Earth became "confusion & emptiness" as a result of Satan's fall to Earth & that is acceptable. But since it's not specifically mentioned as such, & Satan being found at Eden doesn't necessarily give proof to support that belief, we should allow for some other force, whether from astral bodies or deterioration over the eons, that may have caused this deterioration to this once perfect World. Though, I can see that when evil is joined to something good & perfect, the result is evil (i.e. the absence of complete purity).
Otherwise, your remarks are appreciated & on the whole concurred with. Thank you for your time in these important subjects.
At least, we're referring to the same Book, so one hurdle is omitted, but we have to deal with the evidence from Scripture first.
Then further to your Page 2, in reference to the giants, their survival post-Flood & their progeny would be difficult to comment on, since the foundation is not agreed upon. So with just a quick response to that: Is the mention of giants in those days a direct reference to the sons of God mating with humans or were there giants prior to that occasion? ( Gen 6:4). Did not the offspring of the giant-human mating produce "mighty men of renown'? Even if the whole Earth was not flooded, but only in a specific locale, it remains that God destroyed every living substance from the Earth (Gen7:23). And, how far back can the lineage be traced for the Caananite, Perizzite, Hivite & the Hittite? To Noah or to a post-Adamic race? If to Noah: what's the proof? If to another race of people: which race?
So my point is not to discredit your beliefs but to show that insufficient evidence is given to formulate anything outside the parameters of the Word. We can't assume something because it justifies or gives meaning to something else that may be evident. Why? Because our hypotheses may well be completely out of kilter thereby producing an erroneous outcome. I realize I don't have the answers, but I know for sure, that I would rather declare ignorance than to surmise/assume/calculate on certain 'facts' that cannot be clearly supported in Scripture.
D.J., as always, I appreciate your comments & the time you've given to writing them. Yes, we all seem to have that extra time on our hands especially during these uncertain days.
I won't dispute the use of the word "flesh", as you've shown it in Hebrew, simply because I've never examined this properly. So, I will accept your explanation & application of that word. Yet, in Gen 6:18-20, it is specifically declared who & what were to be carried in the Ark (i.e. the eight humans & two of every animal, male & female). I wonder how you can understand that 'other humans', not of the Adamic lineage, would also be included amongst these, seeing that the whole reason for the 'escape in the Ark' was for the destruction of all remaining, unbelieving humans (vv 5-8)?
When I consider Scripture, as with such accounts that are not fully explained, I try to get to the very first mention of it (as here in Genesis) & progress through the Word to find more detail on the type of people (& animals) in question. Of course, the enquiry can sometimes be fruitless, simply because insufficient information is given, so my search ends as no other material is forthcoming.
Since you too are reading from the same Scripture & I'm sure you are not privy to other material on this subject, could it be that you're viewing the Genesis account the other way, i.e. backwards rather than forwards? To explain: if you have a belief that there must have been other races of (non-Adamic) people in existence since creation, then to support that belief, you would have to also assume that it was not just eight people & animals that went into the Ark, but other humans too, or else how could we have such a diverse range of humanity. I ask, can we make such assumptions when the Scripture gives no further light on them? Are those assumptions even believable then, since we can't see it in Scripture?
Onto Page 2.
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Another popular theory among Bible students concerning the flood of Noah's time is offered to explain the fact that not only did the different ethnic races of humans survive the flood, but that the "giants" ( Genesis 6:4) that were upon the earth before the flood, also survived the flood. Giants are the product of fallen Angels mating with humans. They survived because Scripture states that they were upon the earth "also after that" ( Genesis 6:4), hence, after the flood of Noah's time occurred. More proof lies in the fact that David fought the GIANT Goliath approximately 2500 years later. This theory explains that the flood of Noah's time was only localized to that particular area in which Noah and the rest of the extended families of Adam lived, and migrated into. The flood was sent unto this specific area that was originally inhabited by the offspring of the fallen angels (rendered "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2, 4), and their families. They initially populated this particular land because their instruction was to come expressly unto the daughters of Adam, to "take them wives of all which they chose" ( Genesis 6:2), so that they could "bare children to them" ( Genesis 6:4), thereby intermixing and corrupting the seed line of the Messiah to the point of no return. These "giants," and their offspring, eventually may have settled outside the flood area, and subsequently were not a part of that destruction, also look at Genesis 12:6, 13:7, 15:19 - 21.
I believe that either, both, or a combination of these, and other possible scenarios that can be backed by Scripture, are the reason why all races are on the earth today.
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I did not answer one of your initial questions concerning Noah and the Ark and who we are descendants from if only 8 souls aboard the Ark survived ( 1 Peter 3:20). Disclaimer: This might get lengthy and bring in other topics that may not be a part of mainstream Christian conclusions, so to speak. I am giving you a lot of info. I have a lot of time on my hands lately. Thanks for reading.
There are various ideas about how all races are still on the earth if the flood of Noah's time destroyed all life. What does Scripture say?
I would start by turning to Genesis 6:19. "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female."
Our Father is letting us know that not only were there the eight Adamic souls ( 1Peter 3:20) instructed to enter the ark; Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives ( Genesis 6:18), but the command by God was to also bring two of "every living thing of ALL FLESH," which would include the other races of humans, on to the ark with him. They were to be brought "male and female" so that a seed line or remnant of these different races would remain after the flood.
The word "flesh" is derived from the Hebrew word "basar" (baw-sawr). It is used 27 times in the Book of Genesis. Only once is the word not identified with a human being in the Book of Genesis, look at Genesis 9:4. Of the 271 total times the word "flesh" is mentioned in the O.T., the Hebrew word "basar" (baw-sawr) is utilized for 257 of them, and is almost always representing human beings. When the word "flesh" does not represent man, it is easily identified as food; hence meat of some sort, whether living, raw, or cooked, as it does for the first time in ( Ex 12:8), also look at ( Ex 16:3, 8, 12, Lev 4:11, 18:7, etc.).
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The earth became a ruin, and the heavens ceased to give light, but neither were created by God in that manner because we know that; "as for God, His way is perfect" ( 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalms 18:30), also look at ( Deuteronomy 32:4, Jeremiah 10:12). Everything created by God is flawless and pure in how it was created, and there is nothing that is not subject to this fact. In other words, God would not create an earth void and formless and a black heaven to spend the next six days fixing what He messed up. God forbid!
Sorry, ended up being long anyway.
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Concerning the three heaven and earth AGES; reference will again be pointed toward the entire chapter of 2nd Peter chapter 3. This might give you a clearer understanding of these separate DISPENSATIONS OF TIME (not the formation of three separate heavens and earths). For reference I will again state that "the world that then was" ( 2 Peter 3:6) refers to the first dispensation of time. "The heavens and earth which are now" ( 2 Peter 3:7) refers to the second dispensation of time (the time we are presently living in from Adam until now). And "a new heavens and a new earth" ( 2 Peter 3:13) refer to the time period that all God fearing humans are waiting for; also look at Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:12, Revelations 21:1.
My question concerning Satan brings into light the three dispensations of time; as Scripture would be most difficult to understand without comprehension of them.
The fall of Satan happened in the first earth and heaven age and was the reason for the end of that particular time period. Information regarding this can be found (as you stated) in Isaiah 14:12-20, Isaiah 45:18, 19, Jeremiah 4:22-29, and Ezekiel 28:12-19, as they are descriptive figurative statements revealing him to us. Not a page of God's word could be turned without the use of figurative language; which is employed to emphasize a truth and reveal a deeper understanding of the topic being discussed.
Therefore, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1. That was the first earth age.
Found in first half of Genesis 1:2 is the result of the end of the first dispensation of time (due to the rebellion of Satan); hence, the earth was (became) without form and void.
Found in the second half of Genesis 1:2 is the first act of the second dispensation of time; hence, the Spirit of God moving upon the waters.
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I will attempt to be less confusing. I apologize for possibly trying to give too much information.
There are two accounts of the creation of man. The first account is found in Genesis 1:26-29. The second account can be found in Genesis 2:4-7.
Genesis 1:26-29 is the 6th day account of the creation of the different races that make up mankind, both male and female. The blessings and instructions given in Genesis 1:28 were given to those particular people.
Genesis 2:4-7 is the 6th day account of the creation of the specific man Adam. In Genesis 2:7, God gives us detail as to HOW both Adam and ALL of mankind are formed by Him (from the dust of the ground), but these verses concern only the particular man Adam. Genesis 2:15-17 are the instructions given to the man Adam that are different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind. Adam was that particular man chosen by God to "till the ground" ( Genesis 2:5) and be a farmer in God's Garden; and try to resist Satan.
Genesis 2:21-23 is the formation of Eve FROM Adam. This is not creation of mankind, both "male and female" as found in Genesis 1:28, which concerns all of the races. This particular lineage is very special for all of mankind. It begins with the divine act of our heavenly Father taking a "rib" from Adam and creating Eve (one from one + the Lord God) and ends with the divine act of the Holy Spirit through Mary bringing about the promised birth ( Genesis 3:15) of the Lord and Savior of all the earth (one from one + the Holy Spirit) ( Isaiah 7:14).
And to your question: "If the beginning of the earth was the first seven days of creation found in Genesis 1:2 - 2:4, then when did the fall of Satan occur?" This question is moot. There will always be theories when Satan's fall occurred. It could have been at some time after the creation of the angelic host ( Isa 14:12-15), maybe after God's creative Work had ended. It may have been according to the type given in Ezek 28:12-17, when Satan was already in Eden & from thence he fell into sin; or even in ( Rev 12:7-9) where Satan & his angels were cast out of Heaven to the Earth after Jesus ascended to the Father (though this option wouldn't work, as Satan was already active way before this time on Earth). So, I have to plead ignorance to your question, as the Scriptures don't give me a clear answer, though if compelled, I would lean towards the Isaiah description.
D.J., thank you for your response. I will still go back to Gen 1:28 for clarification, as this verse seems to be where my misunderstanding lies. Since you stated that, "The instructions given to Adam are completely different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind", I could only assume that there were some other instructions given to the rest of us. However, you say that the instructions in Gen 1:28 also applies to us, hence I couldn't work out, & still can't, what these other 'completely different instructions' are, since Gen 1:28 applies to both Adam & Even & us. So this still remains confusing. Hence, my mind got carried away, that if there were other instructions to other people, then who were they, if not the progeny of our first parents? Then the rest of your remarks on your Page 1 I would agree with, if both Adam & us received the same instructions & not different ones.
And I noted your comments in your Page 2. However, my comments to which you referenced, only applied to my wonder as to those 'different instructions given to us', then your further comments (page 2) had no direct bearing to them, & therefore I would agree with them. Your reference to the "three heaven & earth ages", I would say refer to the sky, universe & earth, rather than to the Heaven of God's Abode. Is that what you meant?
(onto Page 2.)
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In addressing your comment mentioning that God would not properly be representing all races; I will state that God chose Adam and his lineage to bring forth, umbilical cord to umbilical cord, the Savior of the world ( Genesis 3:15). That promise by our heavenly Father made this particular lineage the most important lineage to ever walk on the face of the planet. All other peoples and nations mentioned in the Bible are only due to their interaction, good or bad, ( Isaiah 10:5) with God's chosen people and the nation of Israel.
We are all children of God, blessed by Him, and given freewill to believe whatever we want!
On a side note, you state that Adam and Eve were made "in the image of God." The PLURAL words of God stating "in OUR image, after OUR likeness" ( Genesis 1:27) is the intention of God to make the mortal features of mankind to be a physical reflection of God and the angels. We are to be a representative figure of what we looked like in the 1st Dispensation of time. We are an illusion of that spiritual body, but delivered unto these flesh bodies in order to be tried and tested by God by the very freewill He grants unto us. How could God the Father and His only begotten Son know us beforehand if the first time we came into existence was in these flesh bodies in this 2nd Dispensation of time? The answer is simple; God "did foreknow" ( Rom 8:29) each and every one of us because we were all there in the 1st Dispensation of time. The only One made in the true image of God is His only begotten Son ( John 5:37, John 10:30 John 14:7, John 14:9, Colossians 1:14, Colossians 1:15. The clear understanding that there are 3 heaven and earth ages can be found in 2 Peter 3:6, 2 Peter 3:7, 2 Peter 3:13.
Question If the beginning of the earth was the first seven days of creation found in Genesis 1:2 - 2:4, then when did the fall of Satan occur?
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I appreciate your feedback concerning the creation of Adam and Eve.
In reply to your first question, I believe that was answered in the original post. Scripture states that God created mankind on the 6th day, both male and female. God then B-L-E-S-S-E-D them, and said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and RE-plenish the earth, and subdue it. ( Genesis 1:26, Genesis1:27, Genesis 1:28). These are the instructions given to the rest of mankind. We are clearly neither insignificant nor are we worthless in His sight. We are all children of God with power given by Him to choose for ourselves who or what we want to believe. God makes the choice even easier: Be a part of His family of everlasting life or be a part of Satan's family of death.
Your phrase "or later" in regards to creation after the 6th day, I would point to Genesis 2:1, Genesis 2:2, and Genesis 2:3, which states that God FINISHED all of His creative work by the end of the 6th day; mankind being the last and greatest (and most confused) creative accomplishment.
I do not account for the existence of "cavemen." Scripture does not leave room for evolution. God states that He "created" ( Genesis 1:27) man. You and I were born, not created, as Adam, Eve, and the other Patriarchs and Matriarchs of the races (i.e. genealogy, Luke 3:23 - 39). Have we evolved from Adam?
Concerning a race or races of "sinless" people out there in the world I would point to Scripture found in Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22.
If we account for the existence of 'cave men' (& others) via this assumption, then I wonder why Adam & Eve were made in the image of God, with His Qualities & Traits, while these cave people's appearance & lifestyle, as we're led to believe, resembled more like animals?
Also, can we also assume that these 'others' did not sin as Adam & Eve did & so we might in fact have races of people right now who are sinless in the world? If this is so, shouldn't the Bible at least account for these other people, their temptations to sin, & God's dealing with them? It seems rather strange that God would only speak about Adam & Eve (because through them the Saviour would eventually come), but neglect about the state of the others. Then again, maybe God focused on Adam & his progeny for obvious reasons, but cared little for the rest of us. Why should we even need the Gospel to be proclaimed to us, since we may not need it because of our state, or for God's little care for us.
You raise some serious matters that can have frightening impact on our lives present & future.
Cain found his wife because Adam and Eve were not the only two people living on earth at that time.
( Genesis 1:26 - 28) states that on the 6th day God created mankind, BOTH male and female, blessed them, and told them to be fruitful and multiply, RE-plenish the earth, subdue it, and have dominion over every living thing on it.
God also created Adam on the 6th day. Adam, however, was not told to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. Adam was put in a garden in Eden ( Genesis 2:7, 8) completely by himself ( Genesis 2:18, 1st Timothy 2:13). The instructions given to Adam were to dress the garden and to keep it ( Genesis 2:15). Adam was a farmer, and the animals brought to him in ( Genesis 2:19 - 20) were utilized for that particular purpose. The instructions given to Adam are completely different than the instructions given to the rest of mankind because God chose Adam to stand against the serpent in the garden, and God chose the lineage of Adam to bring forth the Savior of the world. (It is interesting to note that unlike Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc., who are all stated as being faithful or righteous, that is nowhere stated of Adam; but it may be implied, as God did choose him).
The Bible uses translated words such as "peoples," "nations," "heathen," and "gentiles" to define these people as "foreign" or, in other words, a different lineage than Adam. The reason Cain found a wife in the land of Nod, east of Eden ( Genesis 4:16) is because the other races of people created by God on the 6th day were living on the earth, reproducing, and having dominion over it. It is interesting to note that for over 6000 years of marriages between the races of the world, those same races are still very much distinguishable......and ALL are blessed through the perfect plan of God, ( Genesis 1:28 12:2, 3, 26:4)
As to why the earth was being RE-plenished by God, look at ( 2nd Peter 3:5 - 7, 13).