"Once saved always saved? Can a saved person lose his soul?"
That depends on who saved them. If God saved them they can never be lost, if they saved themselves through their choice/free will, it stands to reason that they can then choose or will themselves to be lost.
Staying Close To The Holy Spirit in Your Heart - In Reply on James 2:3 - 3 years ago
Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
BUT he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS , but is in DANGER of eternal damnation:
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
2 Timothy 3:2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
The Work of the Holy Spirit. John 16
"I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I am going to him (Father) who sent me, and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper (HOLY SPIRIT) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when HE comes, HE will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in ME; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world (Satan) is judged.
12"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, HE will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he HEARS, he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
My comment: if the Holy Spirit is not calling you (in your born again spirit), to return to Jesus, you are in danger of blaspheming.
Sorry to tell you, but Paul didn't write the book of James. It was James the Lords' brother and he was writing to Jewish believers who knew the "law" and instructing them on how to 'come out from among her my people.'
James chapter 2 is one of those corner stones in our every day christian life, if you read the rest of the chapter it becomes self explanatory that Paul is talking about having respect (judging) of persons, as to what they wear, in other words he tells us to be aware of our own prejudices to people simply because one is dressed better than the other, we could even think of such things as racial prejudices that we see in today's world, rich and poor, and so on.
James 2:4 "Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?"
James 2:6 "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?"
James 2:8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"
James 2:9 "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
I Believe Paul was speaking simply about the way believers and church folks, And how snooty we can get. The gay clothing is referring to nice clothing and the people that wear them getting more recognition and placement or seating. As opposed to poor clothing and people not being given the same acknowledgement, placement or even seating in church or society. I hope this helps.
Exactly, one can not just believe for salvation. That is a demonic religion.
We must Hear the word of God Roman's 10:17, Believe it John 8 :24, Repent Luke 13:3, Confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Matthew 10:32-33, Be baptized fir the remission of our sins, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:6, and live faithful and obedient. Matthew 10:22, Rev.2:10.
Thou believeth there is one God ; thou doest well : the devils also believe and tremble .
7 times devils spoke to Jesus and called him " Son of God " never God , but they know there is only One God according to James .
Matthew 4.3
Matthew 4.6
Matthew.29
Luke 4.3
Luke4.9
Luke4.41
Luke8.28
They know the truth , but do it not .
The point is that works of faith are what's really important, and it's our works and all men's works that are going to be judged not what we believe alone .
We can do nothing apart from Jesus the Son of God born in Bethlehem died on the cross for the sins of the world , raised up 3 days later seen alive by more than 500 people, taken up into heaven and coming back again as he left but in Glory ... be ready ....
written to the believing jews before the revelation of the mysteries given to paul by THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. The disciples of apostles believed pauls gospel. Check out ken johnson a solid christian historian.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Alan, I wasn't able to receive all your comments sent under "Satisfaction Theories". You wrote about Anselm & that comment didn't finish off completely, as well as no further comment on Calvin & Aquinas. I'm not sure that I am adequately qualified to comment too deeply on anything you put forward as I haven't studied this matter to any great depth; just having a general understanding of our sin nature, God's View of our corruption, the extent of it & separation from Him, our inability to rectify matters & His involvement to adequately & eternally deal with it so that His punishment no longer bears upon us. I had simply responded to your initial question: "What did the early church (Before Augustine) believe?" I saw that as a general enquiry, hence my response, rather than a question to lead into a more in-depth analysis of the matter. However, thank you for your comments - they have been very interesting thus far.
By the time Augustine came on the scene, Western church fathers had departed from the theology of sin of the Eastern Church, with one exception; they still held to the notion of human free will and responsibility. Augustine was quick to pounce on this awkward combination of ideas his western predecessors had left behind; namely, involuntary inherited sinfulness coupled with free choice. In 395 CE he wrote, "We have all become one lump of clay, that is, a lump of sinwe as sinners deserve nothing other than eternal damnation" (74). A few years later, in 397 CE he first "uses the epoc-making phrase, 'original sin' for the first time in the history of Christian thought" (74).
Satisfaction theories start from the idea that human sin constitutes a grave offense against God, the magnitude of which renders forgiveness and reconciliation morally impossible unless something is done either to satisfy the demands of justice or to compensate God for the wrong done to him. These theories go on to note that human beings are absolutely incapable on their own of compensating God for the wrong they have done to him, and that the only way for them to satisfy the demands of justice is to suffer death and eternal separation from God. Thus, in order to avoid this fate, they are in dire need of help. Christ, through his death (and, on some versions, through his sinless life as well) has provided that help. The different versions of the satisfaction theory are differentiated by their claims about what sort of help the work of Christ has provided. Here we'll discuss three versions: St. Anselm's debt-cancellation theory, the penal substitution theory defended by John Calvin and many others in the reformed tradition, and the penitential substitution theory, attributed to Thomas Aquinas and defended most recently by Eleonore Stump and Richard Swinburne.
According to Anselm, our sin puts us in a kind of debt toward God. As our creator, God is entitled to our submission and obedience. By sinning, we therefore fail to give God something that we owe him. Thus, we deserve to be punished until we do give God what we owe him. Indeed, on Anselm's view, not only is it just for God to punish us
Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given for the remission of sin; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3)
The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 AD):
If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old Death from his first being born. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus)
Here are some excerpts from these early Church fathers. Origen & Cyprian seemed to veer off in relation to baptism & infants.
Irenaeus (c. (late) 100 AD):
Having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man. We, however, are all from him; and as we are from him, we have inherited his title [of sin]. Indeed, through the first Adam, we offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment we transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3)
Tertullian (c. 200 AD)
Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom Man was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On account of his transgression Man was given over to death; and the whole human race, which was infected by his seed, was made the transmitter of condemnation. (The Testimony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD).
Augustine (354-430) first shaped the doctrine of original sin,[7][5] seeing it as based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle ( Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22) and the Old Testament verse of Psalms 51:5.[8][9][10][11][12] Tertullian (c. 155 - c. 240), Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster considered that humanity shares in Adam's sin, transmitted by human generation. Augustine said that free will was weakened but not destroyed by original sin.[5] Augustine's formulation of original sin was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good and proposed that original sin involved a loss of free will except to sin.[13]
My question is. What did the early church (Before Agustine) believe? Clearly, they did not have Augustine's view.
Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace we are saved through faith. it is not by faith alone, but by the grace of god and faith in his son that we receive the gift of salvation. by grace, we cannot earn grace. grace is given to us by a loving merciful god. it is freely given, we must only have faith in his word and in his son jesus christ. remember it is by grace through faith. not of works lest any man should boast. but he is telling us that if you truly believe you will also have works.
Original sin is a Bible doctrine, not just Augustine.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Yet ALL does not mean ALL with one exception
Hebrews Chapter 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. WITHOUT SIN Jesus
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Original Sin... Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.
Hasn't the West not changed the Christian narrative?
Alan, from the reading of Scripture, I would say that the early Church & the present Bible believing Church viewed Christ's salvation, its operation & its application in the very same way. However, there were those in that early Church, Gnostics included, that wanted to corrupt its meaning, to which Paul was pained to address that important issue. And specifically, some would have the keeping of the Law, circumcision & traditions as part & parcel of this new faith. Galatians chapter 2 gives a clear demonstration of Peter's hypocrisy in this matter, to which Paul had to take him 'over the coals', as what Peter was requiring of the Gentiles was in direct conflict with the meaning of the Gospel of Salvation, i.e. that the Cross has set us free from the bindings & consequences of the Law. If then, from your question, "the early Church did not view salvation as the western Church does" is your belief, then if you could provide some evidence of this please?
As well, I did not understand your other question: "where did the doctrine of original sin come from?" If it's not from the Bible ( Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21,22), then I don't know from where else.
Is it true, the early church did not view salvation as the western church does. If that is correct how can we say today faith alone(if that was never heard of in 20AD)
Also, where did the doctrine of original sin come from?
That depends on who saved them. If God saved them they can never be lost, if they saved themselves through their choice/free will, it stands to reason that they can then choose or will themselves to be lost.
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
BUT he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS , but is in DANGER of eternal damnation:
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
2 Timothy 3:2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
The Work of the Holy Spirit. John 16
"I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I am going to him (Father) who sent me, and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper (HOLY SPIRIT) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when HE comes, HE will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in ME; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world (Satan) is judged.
12"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, HE will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he HEARS, he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
My comment: if the Holy Spirit is not calling you (in your born again spirit), to return to Jesus, you are in danger of blaspheming.
Mishael
James 2:4 "Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?"
James 2:6 "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?"
James 2:8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"
James 2:9 "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
We must Hear the word of God Roman's 10:17, Believe it John 8 :24, Repent Luke 13:3, Confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Matthew 10:32-33, Be baptized fir the remission of our sins, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:6, and live faithful and obedient. Matthew 10:22, Rev.2:10.
Thou believeth there is one God ; thou doest well : the devils also believe and tremble .
7 times devils spoke to Jesus and called him " Son of God " never God , but they know there is only One God according to James .
Matthew 4.3
Matthew 4.6
Matthew.29
Luke 4.3
Luke4.9
Luke4.41
Luke8.28
They know the truth , but do it not .
The point is that works of faith are what's really important, and it's our works and all men's works that are going to be judged not what we believe alone .
We can do nothing apart from Jesus the Son of God born in Bethlehem died on the cross for the sins of the world , raised up 3 days later seen alive by more than 500 people, taken up into heaven and coming back again as he left but in Glory ... be ready ....
How to understand " the law of liberty."
Revelation 22 v 12
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Satisfaction theories start from the idea that human sin constitutes a grave offense against God, the magnitude of which renders forgiveness and reconciliation morally impossible unless something is done either to satisfy the demands of justice or to compensate God for the wrong done to him. These theories go on to note that human beings are absolutely incapable on their own of compensating God for the wrong they have done to him, and that the only way for them to satisfy the demands of justice is to suffer death and eternal separation from God. Thus, in order to avoid this fate, they are in dire need of help. Christ, through his death (and, on some versions, through his sinless life as well) has provided that help. The different versions of the satisfaction theory are differentiated by their claims about what sort of help the work of Christ has provided. Here we'll discuss three versions: St. Anselm's debt-cancellation theory, the penal substitution theory defended by John Calvin and many others in the reformed tradition, and the penitential substitution theory, attributed to Thomas Aquinas and defended most recently by Eleonore Stump and Richard Swinburne.
According to Anselm, our sin puts us in a kind of debt toward God. As our creator, God is entitled to our submission and obedience. By sinning, we therefore fail to give God something that we owe him. Thus, we deserve to be punished until we do give God what we owe him. Indeed, on Anselm's view, not only is it just for God to punish us
Origen (c. 244 AD):
Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given for the remission of sin; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3)
The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 AD):
If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old Death from his first being born. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus)
Here are some excerpts from these early Church fathers. Origen & Cyprian seemed to veer off in relation to baptism & infants.
Irenaeus (c. (late) 100 AD):
Having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man. We, however, are all from him; and as we are from him, we have inherited his title [of sin]. Indeed, through the first Adam, we offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment we transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3)
Tertullian (c. 200 AD)
Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom Man was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On account of his transgression Man was given over to death; and the whole human race, which was infected by his seed, was made the transmitter of condemnation. (The Testimony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD).
My question is. What did the early church (Before Agustine) believe? Clearly, they did not have Augustine's view.
Also, are we saying Jesus was plan B?
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Yet ALL does not mean ALL with one exception
Hebrews Chapter 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. WITHOUT SIN Jesus
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Why do you assume Christians have a narrative? Do you believe the Bible?
Hasn't the West not changed the Christian narrative?
As well, I did not understand your other question: "where did the doctrine of original sin come from?" If it's not from the Bible ( Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21,22), then I don't know from where else.
Also, where did the doctrine of original sin come from?
Many thanks.