I've just realised that there are two separate issues that I need to be clear about . It's not that I think that these two issues might be essential for my salvation but non the less , they feel important to me in my understanding .
The first one is : did Jesus exist in heaven before God created everything ? And if he did what form did he take ?
So far I'm thinking that Jesus is the Word ( of God ) made flesh ( by God using His own Holy Spirit ) .
Secondly , is Jesus God Himself and so far I can't see evidence of this . It seems illogical to me . If Jesus is God who was Jesus praying to ? Why does Jesus say to his disciples : I ascend to my Father and yours , to my God and yours ?
I'm starting to realise the importance of metaphor and parables . I have a few friends who really struggle with metaphors . They literally take everything literally ! It's impossible to make them laugh because they have no sense of humour and they certainly don't have any imagination at all . They can be are work to be around . I mentioned to my friend that my dog does exactly the same thing at 9-30 every night , we were talking in the phone and I said : there he goes again ( about my dog ) and my friend said ( very seriously ) but it's only twenty past nine . What could I say to that ?
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in glory and honor equal with the Father, as both are worshipped as such in Rev. 5:1-14;
9:1-8). Only God is rightfully worshipped.
And I believe that in Jesus, though He is fully human and fully God, having two natures that are united in the one Person of Jesus, these natures are not mixed together to form a new nature. Therefore, everything that Jesus did or said was as the divine Person of the Son of God. There are not two persons in Jesus: one divine and one human, nor is Jesus a human Person only, nor a human Person with deity.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14; Jesus is "God with us" "Emmanuel" Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23; Titus 2:13.
I welcome others to discuss this if they feel led to by the Holy Spirit, both respectfully and seriously, not reactively.
As an add on to the discussion with Fuji, Ronald, Chris, Giannis, S. Spencer and any who are following, I was contemplating the assertion of Unitarians of Jesus being only human and if anyone who is only human can ever live a completely sinless life and even if one was born without a sinful nature as Jesus was.
This is what I am thinning on this.
First of all, Adam and Eve were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. Satan and the other angels were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. This is how God ordained things to happen in His eternal decrees concerning creation, redemption, glorification. Romans 1:26-32, 11:37
The Scriptures affirm that every single human have sinned. Rom. 3:10-12, 23; Ps. 14:1-3. 53:1-3. Ecc. 7:20
The Scriptures say that only God is altogether good and sinless. Lk 18:19; Mk 10:18; Ps. 25:8; 1 chr. 16:34
With this evidence of Scripture, I will say that I believe that there never has been nor will there ever will be any person who is only human who will remain sinless in their earthly life. God has decreed this to be so.
In the case of Jesus, He was truly human and truly sinless, but He was not only human as Scriptures attest ( John 1:1-3, 14 and many other Scriptures-see discussion about Fuji's questions on this matter). Scriptures state unequivocally that Jesus is God made flesh. John 1:14.
I believe that Jesus, pre-existed His earthly life eternally as God the Son without beginning at any time (Because God is always eternal in existence) Rom. 1:20, Ps. 90:2, Is. 40:8, 28
I also believe that Jesus is one single Person, the eternal divine Son of God, who took on a human nature at His conception to live a perfect life, sacrifice His life for the sins of the world, and through His death, He took upon Himself God's wrath for sin in our place, and supplied salvation from sin, death, and hell from His life and death and triumphant resurrection from the dead to ascend back to heaven. see Pt. 2
I just thought of a serious question that I haven't seen posted on the site! Unless I missed it. I admit I don't read all the postings.
I haven't read or followed much of this ongoing discussion of the Trinity, mainly because my wife and I just got back from a 4 day cruise today.
Also this has been debated by the same participants several times over the years.
Which is fine.
I believe most agree that belief in the Trinity doctrine is not a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation.
However I've mentioned before and will say it again I believe one would come to that truth as he mature in the word. ORGANICALLY!
MY QUESTION.
Can a ungenerated person come to this truth?
That is a serious question that I never considered!!
You may not have to hold to it to be saved but can it be revealed apart from the Spirit of truth?
The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying! He was claiming to be God. However they couldn't recieve it!
It made them angry as it do some today even though it's clear in scripture.
John 20:30-31 reads "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; (Meaning GOD) and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This is written right after Thomas confession in verse 28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND "MY GOD".
This as well as much of John's Gospel is on the deity of Christ
John 1:1-3 "In beginning" I believe this is how it is written in the Greek. IN BEGINNING! There was no beginning!!
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hi everyone and good evening everyone , this begining of your post is a bit confusing , if it's addressed to everyone why is it in my e mail ? You can't blame me for taking this personally .
I'm not sure what an 'ungenerated 'person is but it doesn't sound much like a compliment to me .
With reference to your reference : John chapter 20 verse 31 , you put it this way : But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; then you put brackets containing the words ' meaning God ' .
Isn't what you did in direct contradiction of Revelation chapter 22 verses 18+19 ?
I'm very sorry to be so confrontational , if your message wasn't just intended for me personally then I apologise for reacting so strongly to it .
I think the crux of the matter to me is that the Bible does not come out and say , plain and simple , unequivocally that Jesus is God . If it does I cannot find it and those two verses from Revelation chapter 22 burn in my heart and , to me , they are extremely important and I can't just discard them .
May God bless us all to be polite and respectful when speaking to our family in our Lord Jesus Christ .
It is clear from how S. Spencer opened his post that it was addressed to everyone who would read it. I am sorry that it went to your e-mail. Please know that this does happen at times when we post. So, be forgiving and do not take it at all personally now that S. Spencer has responded to you and apologized.
As to your question about what is an unregenerated person, this term is for one who has not been born-again by the Holy Spirit and brought to faith and salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the same as being an unbeliever.
I don't thin that an unregenerated person would come to the understanding of what Scriptures attest to as the Triunity of the Godhead because such and understanding is spiritually discerned by one who is made alive in Christ. Those who are not yet regenerated cannot come to the knowledge of the truth in Christ or Scripture unto salvation until they have been made alive and have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.
1 cor. 2:14
Col. 1:13
Unregenerated people have eyes that are blinded to the truth, ears that are shut to hear the truth, and minds that are degenerated and perverse in their thinking about God and His truth. Their hearts are hardened towards God.
Ma k:18
Rom. 1:26-32 describes this state of unbelief in those dead in sin.
I know that you do know all of these things, but I just wished to try to give a sound biblical understanding for your question.
As to the discussion on the oneness and threeness of God, most who have responded to Fuji's questions have discussed these things back and forth many times here. Yet, Fuji is asking questions that truly need true Scriptural answers. He may have not heard or read on these questions before and we should do our best to help him seek what Scriptures do say.
And for the record, the overwhelming majority of Christians believe God is trinitarian, that Jesus existed before He was incarnated, and that He is both God and Man. I read recently that about 90% of serious believers avow to the trinitarian belief.
This forum is certainly open to anyone to express their beliefs.
I just wanted to point out this statistic because in a discussion like this one on this forum you can have people responding that are 50/50 as to embracing trinitarianism/unitariansim which can give the impression to some that both view are widely held when that is not the truth among believers now, nor of Christians historically over 2000 years. This statistic does not prove the truth though
I will certainly be praying for you in this matter. May God give you direction and discernment through the Holy Spirit as to whether you return to this fellowship or not.
I did this about 20 years ago. I had left a fellowship over deep concerns about the pastor and leadership and was planted in another church of a different denomination. But after a short time the Holy Spirit drew me to attend services at both fellowships for a time. I did not know why I was to do this at first, but in time I knew that the Spirit was teaching me to worship with and love more deeply those who I had parted with and was grieved by. After a year of this, the lead of the Holy Spirit lifted this "assignment" from me and I just attended the new fellowship. I have not had contact with people from the previous fellowship for over 20 but I continue to pray for those the Spirit reminds me to lift up.
I don't know your reasons form leaving the fellowship, but I am sure that the Holy Spirit will guide you, teach you, and help you to exemplify Jesus in the midst of this fellowship or any fellowship He call you to be a part of.
The Scriptures clearly say that God will not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8) but in John 17:5 the Father did and does share His divine glory with Jesus, who is also God.
Many places in Scripture state that God created all that there is, AND that Jesus created all that there is ( John 1:1-3; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) Only a Being can create, not an idea or a plan.
And lastly, Jesus is worshipped as God in Rev. along with the Father. ( Rev. 5:1-14; 19:1-8).
Jesus is our Maker, Creator, Lord, and God. He always has been God, not an idea or plan in the mind of God. He is forever the Son of God because John 1:18 in the Greek call Him the only begotten God who has seen God (the Father) and whom declares who God is as the eternal Word.
What one believes about the eternal existence and deity of Jesus will frame how one views the gospel, His sacrifice, our atonement, and that salvation truly comes only from God in Christ alone. Not from one who is only human who lived a sinless life, as Unitarians profess. Jesus, from everlasting to everlasting is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
God is the only Savior (Is. 43:11; Hos. 13:4; Jude 1:25).
Fuji,
May God bless you with true understanding of how Scriptures answer your two questions.
Heb. 1:6 God instructed the angels to worship the Son.
The apostles worshipped Jesus ( Mt. 28:9; Mt. 14:33;. Jn. 20:28)
And the man born blind worshipped Jesus ( Jn. 9:38
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Was Jesus in heaven before creation? My understanding is no. Many will say Jesus is part of a Triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three distinct persons, all co-equal, and co-eternal so that would put Him in heaven before creation.
God is a Spirit John 4:24, so if Jesus were in heaven His form would be Spirit. Are there verses on their own that would support the Trinity, yes. But we must keep a verse in context and compare it to other Scriptures about the same subject and not start with the answer, or a preconceived idea. We should let the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give us the answer and meaning.
A few thoughts. In John 1:1 what beginning is John referring to, the beginning of creation or the beginning of Jesus's ministry, when He was anointed with the Holy Ghost becoming the Messiah, Matthew 4:16-17. We see the same introduction in 1 John 1:1 and others. In Revelation 19:13 Jesus's name is called the Word of God is that saying Jesus is God?
God was manifested in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, 1 John 1:1, Luke 4:18, John 14:10. The life eternal that was with God was manifested on earth through Jesus that we may fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ 1 John 1:2-7.
I will not go on and on but to me, there is one problem the Trinity doctrine creates I cannot find an answer.
God is perfect and cannot change, in the doctrine that would be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The law was made for man and a man had to fulfill it. A man who could sin had to live a perfect life without sin to pay the penalty. Jesus did and paid the penalties for sin with His death. God cannot die and God cannot sin nor can He be tempted James 1:13, so He could not fulfill the law. Jesus was born without sin as the first Adam but could sin, the first Adam was not obedient and sinned. The last Adam, Jesus, was obedient to the Father and sinned not Romans 5:19. If God sacrificed Himself John 3:16 is not true.
I am trying to understand your belief about the nature of God. So my question is: what do gou believe the Holy Spirit is? A mere impersonal power of God or a separate person within the Godhead?
Thanks, brother, I'm not the best at putting on paper my understanding. I know some Scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as he, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God dwells in us, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and, more. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that does the work of God, Romans 15:19, Jesus did the miracles by the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:28, Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38, Hebrews 2:4.
Jesus said the words He spoke were not His words but the Fathers and God did the works, this was done by the Holy Spirit through Jesus. John 14:10. Jesus said the Holy Spirit/Comforter proceedeth from the Father John 15:26, Jesus said the Holy Ghost will not speak of himself but what he is told, so the Holy Spirit is under the direction of the Father and Jesus, John 16:13.
All the salutations are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is not in any salutations. In Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is the temple of it. No Holy Spirit, what I see in Scripture is the Holy Spirit is the conduit that God works through and now Jesus as well.
I hope this gives you enough info to see how I see the Holy Spirit and I know that is not what many believe. I do not want to offend and I hope I don't, but this is what I see in Scripture. I do not see the Holy Spirit as a person but as the power of God that surrounds this earth by which God and Jesus dwell in us to communicate, guide, and comfort us.
10. 1 Cor 3:16-17, "16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
The grk for "temple" is "naos", that is a place where one lives in eg a house. And the Spirit lives in our bodies, His houses.
John 16:7-11, "7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:..."
11. 1 Cor 12:4-6, "4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."
As seen gifts are given by the Spirit, administrations by Jesus our Lord, and diversities of operations by God.
12. 1 Cor 12:11, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE WILL."
13. Acts 15:28, "FOR IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
14 Rom 18:26-27, "26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
2 Cor 13:13, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
Those are a few I found in the Bible but I think thery are enough to see that the Spirit is a person since it has characteristics of a person and not of an impersonal power.
Rev 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come."
Thank you, I did not start this thread and I should have known where it would lead. I have laid out my understanding of this over the years I have been on this site. I can give you my knowledge on what you replied, like Matthew 3:16-17 You see all three in these verses The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What I see is that this message was given to John. When he sees the Holy Spirit alight on someone and remains, he will know that person is the one God has revealed to him as the Messiah, His Son, the Lamb of God, who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. What else I see is God's Spirit was in Jesus, not on, God gave Jesus His Spirit without measure to do all the works God did.
God manifested Himself in Jesus on earth through His Spirit. God's Spirit did not leave Jesus, that is what Jesus said to His disciples, they know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17, God's Spirit was in Jesus, and If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.
Matthew 28:19 I can say, I have researched this verse and the manuscripts, and many say it is not in the Greek manuscripts but that does not prove anything. I can also say if this was what Jesus told the disciples to do and the method to baptize, we do not see any baptizing done this way. All baptisms recorded in the New Testament is only done in the name of Jesus. Only in Jesus' name, Acts 2:38, Acts 4:12
I love you, brother, if I reply to all you have sent me nothing will change. I feel tensions rising, things are starting to be said, not by you, like I said I did not start this thread, and if you do not mind, I feel it is best if I do not discuss this subject anymore.
I respect your decision to come to an end in this discussion but I think I must clarify something that troubles many christians, which is why there is, or seems to be, such a difference between the gospel of Matthew and Luke's Acts about the name in which christians are baptized. Matthew says in the name of all three and Luke in the name of Jesus. But I will leave that for tomorrow. Just for a hint the key to understand it lies in a detail in the dialogue that Paul had with those disciples in Ephessus. But we will see it tomorrow. GBU
4. John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that HE may abide with you for ever".
The word another (in grk allon) and the word Comforter (Parakleitos) are of masculine gender in grk.".
5. John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (masculine) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you."
Jesus had to go so the Spirit took His place in guiding the church.
6. John 14:13-16, "13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for HE shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." Pay attention please, among others, to that " for he shall not speak of himself"
7. Acts 5:3-4, "3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou GAST NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD " Lie to a thing?
8. Acts 10:19-20, "19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I HAVE SENT THEM" Also 11:12, "And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:"
9. Acts 13:2-4, "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, SEPATATE ME Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus"
I believe that you are aware of the verses I am going to list below and probably you interprete them in your own way but nevertheless.
Verses that show that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal thing, like a mere power:
Firstly it is true that God does everything through His Spirit, but not really everything, we will see it later on. That is why the Spirit is called, especially in the OT, as the hand or arm of God, because as a man uses his hand or arm to do things similarly God uses His Spirit.
1. Matthew 3:16-17, "16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Here we see the Father separate from the Son and the Spirit. The voice from heaven was not the Spirit's voice but Father's
2. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:".
Why is the Holly Spirit included in the name of God if it is a mere thing? And why one name instead of three names?
3. Matthew 12:25-32, "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; ...26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; ...? 28if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.....31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Yes , I see exactly what you are saying and I'm mostly in total agreement . I can see why some people have the idea that Jesus existed in heaven before he was on earth , I don't believe that myself but , I can genuinely see why some people would believe that .
However , so far I have not found good enough , consistent proof , to fix the doctrine of the trinity into my heart or mind . Try as might I just can't see it , for every verse that a person who believes in the trinity quotes , I can find five verses to contradict it . And yes , it also seems to me that some people sometimes start with an idea and then try to find proof to back it up . I'm so sorry if I'm offending any of my brother's or sisters here but I have to speak the truth as I see it , we are all allowed to do that on here aren't we ?
It's a big issue for sure and one that can potentially cause upset , which I don't want to do . I still have some life left to live and throughout all the days of the rest of my life , as long as I am able I shall be studying the Bible . Who knows how I may change my mind ? Any of us may change our minds as we continue to read and study and pray to our Heavenly Father . As long as we all agree , there is only one God , the Holy One of Israel and one mediator between God and man ( and woman ) the man Jesus Christ , who died and was ressurected to eternal life and who shall return to this earth to establish God's Kingdom on it . These things are eternal truth and God does not lie .
May we all do our best to encourage and support each other as we grow together in our understanding of , and appreciation for God's Word and may we exist together in peace and tolerance because none of us in this life , in these bodies of sin , shall be perfect .
Hello Fuji. I would like to further address your statement, "for every verse that a person who believes in the trinity quotes, I can find five verses to contradict it. And yes, it also seems to me that some people sometimes start with an idea and then try to find proof to back it up."
I would be very interested to learn what those verses are that contradict it (the Trinitarian belief). Would these be verses that state that Jesus was simply a man without a beginning in Heaven with the Father? I don't believe that I have read any, but willing to be corrected. But if your verses to prove this belief in error are simply the verses that show Jesus is God's Son and nothing more, then I would hasten to say, that all Trinitarians would believe in the Sonship of Jesus, for so the Scripture states very clearly.
Then it appears to me, that anyone who wants to disprove the Deity of Christ would need to refer to the many Scriptures we've already and frequently quoted that show Christ's Deity without doubt. Until we can examine these other Scriptures, then only can we learn who actually "starts with an idea (or belief) and then try to find proof to back it up". Not one non-Trinitarian has volunteered to expound those verses, except bro Ronald who gave us his understanding of John 1:1, which I believe can be successfully argued if the whole passage is read, i.e. John 1:1-14. So would I be in order to request you to supply us those verses that contradict the Trinitarian belief? I too wish to learn, especially to see what I have missed in my studies. Thank you.
In understanding that there is only one God who exists as three distinct person, Father, Son and Spirit is clearly taught in Scriptures. When you say that you find verses that support the Trinitarian belief and then say there are verses that contradict this belief you are really saying that the Scriptures contradict each other. But we know that this is not true of Scriptures, because God does not contradict Himself in His revelation.
Perhaps a better way to view this is as a paradox or parallel truths. Both are true, one truth (there is only One God) follows one line of revealed truth in Scripture and another truth (the Father, Son, and Spirit, are all God, distinct persons, but unified in one Being) follows another line of revealed truth in Scripture. As humans, we most likely will not be able to fully comprehend that both of these are true of God but this does not permit us to believe one and not the other. We are to believe both ways God has revealed Himself regardless of how well we understand. This is one aspect of believing God (as Abraham did) by faith.
Again, I wish you well and keep searching Scripture, focusing on what it reveals about God, not cancelling one truth out for another. Embrace all that God is as revealed in Scripture. Believers have done this for 2000 years.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.
I would be the first to confess that the Trinity teaching goes against everything my mind tells me is true, for how indeed, can God be divided into three, let alone Him coming to Earth in human form? Yet fortunately, I have two appeals against holding such a belief: firstly, I would have to twist or alter the Word of God to suit my natural understanding, and this I will not do or else what then would I do to the rest of God's Word & how would it then instruct me if I were to change its meaning to appease my conscience & understanding?
And secondly, my conversion to Christ was very dramatic, requiring a full conversion (so to speak), than just the verbal assent given before my godly parents with maybe my limited childhood understanding. Not only did the Spirit of God come upon me (in Oct 23, 1979), arresting me in my sinful tracks, showing me the awful consequences of my sin & eternal hell, but as I then read the Bible with a regenerated spirit, I wondered 'why would such an Holy God send His only begotten Son to be the payment for my sin, and that I could make no acceptable sacrifice to Him to absolve my sin & guilt'? Couldn't He just provide a spotless heavenly lamb or bullock, where all Israel could see descending from the clouds & hear God's Voice say: 'this lamb is my great provision as sacrifice for your sins & by believing, you will be forgiven and received as my special children'? I thought, wouldn't that be more preferable, than creating another human just to put Him to death for no sins of His Own? We know "that greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" ( John 15:13). And this spoke to me as well; here we have a picture of one laying down his life for another, not having an iota of a chance of escaping death - but that through his death, another life (of someone that he loved) would be spared & given a chance to live. Onto Page 3.
To me, God's Love is overpoweringly expressed & seen, as when God gave His Own Life for us because He loved us so much to do so, rather than bringing forth an animal or even another human being to be slaughtered for us. There's no love in this - at least not the indescribable Love of God. I could easily urge someone else to run into a burning inferno to save a child from certain death rather than do it myself: is that love? - maybe a genuine concern & anguish, but not the Love the Bible speaks of. It took God to send forth Himself (& He chose to send His Word) to instruct & warn His people Israel & then to ultimately to lay down His Life for us. Had Jesus refused or failed to complete this Work, because of sin or fear of people or death, God had no other plan for salvation - this was His only Plan that could save sinners; or else we all remain condemned & destined for the punishment we deserve - eternal separation in agonizing pain.
When I see Jesus in the Bible, I see Him as God Himself, as the Word made flesh, for the suffering of death; for God is Spirit & can never be affected by the limitations, weaknesses, & death that the flesh can be. To be our Sacrifice, the supreme Sacrifice, God had to reveal Himself in Jesus His begotten Son, for the purpose of displaying His Love for us & then executing that Love in Sacrifice. And Paul reminds us clearly in Philippians 2:5-11, that this Jesus was in the very Form of God, i.e. in the Personhood of God, having God's Nature, His Power, His Will, etc; but in receiving human flesh, did not cling onto that Divine Nature, rather laid aside His Divinity, taking on human form, becoming a servant of men humbling Himself (how great must have been that humbling?) to even allow His Life to be put to a most horrifying ignoble death. God didn't deserve this - but His Love compelled Him to go all the way to the Cross for us. I well up in tears just thinking of such undeserved love for a wretch as me. Onto Page 4
As a man, yea as a Son, Jesus now talks to & prays to His Father in Heaven. He also said that He came to only do His Father's Will ( John 6:38), so in every respect, Jesus laid aside His Glory that He enjoyed with & in God, & as a Man waited upon His Father continually.
To the natural mind, how could Jesus be God & then be found praying to & worshiping Him? My answer is that Jesus laid aside that Glory & Position to become a Man, a Man Who came to be sacrificed ( John 12:27), and now a Son, subservient to His Father in all things. So how does God then become a Son? That is why God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son & Holy Spirit - if one aspect of His Nature is removed, I believe that God ceases to be God. Just as if our spirit or soul or body is removed or put to death, we instantly cease to be the person that was once born into the world. God exists as a Tripartite God - He can't exist as any other - that is Who He is (as revealed to us). For our sakes, God chose to take that part of Himself & give it flesh (what we otherwise understand as and called, His Word). This act doesn't render God speechless or in any way deficient in knowledge, for His Word is still active in Christ & by His Spirit. And He has given us His Word (both in Christ & the written Word) & His Spirit, thus causing us to truly become new creatures, alive in Jesus & to be lovingly called, the children of the Most High. What a great privilege - what an undeserved position we have been granted, as those already seated in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST ( Ephesians 2:4-7). And that is how our Father sees us & receives us - His blood-bought, His special children, His Spirit-sealed, forever His - because of His Work alone to ransom us. Onto Page 5.
And finally to this last page, you asked, "what form did Jesus take in Heaven?" In spite of the many answers that we have heard (e.g. He is the archangel Michael, or the Angel of the Lord, the Word of God, etc.), we must only go by what the Bible clearly shows us. I have heard of pre-incarnate appearances of Christ, and while I can't dispute such encounters with Abraham, Lot, Jacob, etc, I can't say with all certainty that Jesus (Who doesn't seem to be called Jesus in Heaven - Luke 1:31), was given a Form in Heaven or was sent out performing God's Will in such manner as angels are sent. I don't believe the Bible clearly states this, but Jesus is revealed as the Word of God involved in creation, He is seen, as God, doing the Will of God in unison with the Spirit. I am happy to just believe that Jesus is God's Word, unseen in any physical Form, but made human for our sakes. Any other belief on my part, would just not sit well, as I can't find clear support in the Word of God.
I apologize for the length of this response, but hopefully it will give you further thoughts for your consideration; serious consideration for such an important doctrine - a doctrine that ranks very high amongst other doctrines that are seriously challenged by others. Blessings.
4rth question:If Jesus is God who was Jesus praying to?
Answer: The Word, a part of Godhead, became a man like us, named Jesus. He was born by the Holy sprit and Mary so His father was God and His mother was Mary. So He was a Son of God but also a Son of Man. Now we have to understand that Jesus' aim was to represent humanity on the cross, that is to be punished by death instead of all of us who commit sins. So He had to be a man, a perfect man, like any other man. That means that he could NOT use His divine powers to do anything but He had to pray to His Father God to do all the miracles. He had to live like any other common man. So that He did. This is what is meant in Philippians 2:5-8, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6Who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery (like satan tried to do) to be equal with God:7But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:"
1st question: Did Jesus exist in heaven before God created everything ?
Answer: John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
2nd question: Is Jesus God Himself?
Answer: John 1:1-15, "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.2The same was in the beginning with God.3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.10He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.11HE CAME UNTO HIW OWN, and his own received him not.12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14And the WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory AS of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Isn't the above passage adequate to see that Jesus is God?
3rd question: Why is Jesus is also called the Word?
Answer: God hasn't got names like humans. Through His names God reveals certain characteristics of Him to people, eg Father, Allmighty God, YAHWEH which means the self existing God, etc. Jesus is called the Word because the word of God, the absolute truth about God, was revealed to mankind through Him. He is also called other names like, The Light, The Eternal life, The Truth, The Resurrection, etc.
The first one is : did Jesus exist in heaven before God created everything ? And if he did what form did he take ?
So far I'm thinking that Jesus is the Word ( of God ) made flesh ( by God using His own Holy Spirit ) .
Secondly , is Jesus God Himself and so far I can't see evidence of this . It seems illogical to me . If Jesus is God who was Jesus praying to ? Why does Jesus say to his disciples : I ascend to my Father and yours , to my God and yours ?
I'm starting to realise the importance of metaphor and parables . I have a few friends who really struggle with metaphors . They literally take everything literally ! It's impossible to make them laugh because they have no sense of humour and they certainly don't have any imagination at all . They can be are work to be around . I mentioned to my friend that my dog does exactly the same thing at 9-30 every night , we were talking in the phone and I said : there he goes again ( about my dog ) and my friend said ( very seriously ) but it's only twenty past nine . What could I say to that ?
pT. 2
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in glory and honor equal with the Father, as both are worshipped as such in Rev. 5:1-14;
9:1-8). Only God is rightfully worshipped.
And I believe that in Jesus, though He is fully human and fully God, having two natures that are united in the one Person of Jesus, these natures are not mixed together to form a new nature. Therefore, everything that Jesus did or said was as the divine Person of the Son of God. There are not two persons in Jesus: one divine and one human, nor is Jesus a human Person only, nor a human Person with deity.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14; Jesus is "God with us" "Emmanuel" Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23; Titus 2:13.
I welcome others to discuss this if they feel led to by the Holy Spirit, both respectfully and seriously, not reactively.
As an add on to the discussion with Fuji, Ronald, Chris, Giannis, S. Spencer and any who are following, I was contemplating the assertion of Unitarians of Jesus being only human and if anyone who is only human can ever live a completely sinless life and even if one was born without a sinful nature as Jesus was.
This is what I am thinning on this.
First of all, Adam and Eve were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. Satan and the other angels were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. This is how God ordained things to happen in His eternal decrees concerning creation, redemption, glorification. Romans 1:26-32, 11:37
The Scriptures affirm that every single human have sinned. Rom. 3:10-12, 23; Ps. 14:1-3. 53:1-3. Ecc. 7:20
The Scriptures say that only God is altogether good and sinless. Lk 18:19; Mk 10:18; Ps. 25:8; 1 chr. 16:34
With this evidence of Scripture, I will say that I believe that there never has been nor will there ever will be any person who is only human who will remain sinless in their earthly life. God has decreed this to be so.
In the case of Jesus, He was truly human and truly sinless, but He was not only human as Scriptures attest ( John 1:1-3, 14 and many other Scriptures-see discussion about Fuji's questions on this matter). Scriptures state unequivocally that Jesus is God made flesh. John 1:14.
I believe that Jesus, pre-existed His earthly life eternally as God the Son without beginning at any time (Because God is always eternal in existence) Rom. 1:20, Ps. 90:2, Is. 40:8, 28
I also believe that Jesus is one single Person, the eternal divine Son of God, who took on a human nature at His conception to live a perfect life, sacrifice His life for the sins of the world, and through His death, He took upon Himself God's wrath for sin in our place, and supplied salvation from sin, death, and hell from His life and death and triumphant resurrection from the dead to ascend back to heaven. see Pt. 2
I honestly have no Idea how this got addressed to your email!
I am also not getting email notifications from replies to me.
I clicked on the tab "Enter new comment" I never replied to you or anyone when I posted what I posted.
In fact I didn't recieve an email notification on this post or the post from Gigi.
Good Evening everyone.
I just thought of a serious question that I haven't seen posted on the site! Unless I missed it. I admit I don't read all the postings.
I haven't read or followed much of this ongoing discussion of the Trinity, mainly because my wife and I just got back from a 4 day cruise today.
Also this has been debated by the same participants several times over the years.
Which is fine.
I believe most agree that belief in the Trinity doctrine is not a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation.
However I've mentioned before and will say it again I believe one would come to that truth as he mature in the word. ORGANICALLY!
MY QUESTION.
Can a ungenerated person come to this truth?
That is a serious question that I never considered!!
You may not have to hold to it to be saved but can it be revealed apart from the Spirit of truth?
The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying! He was claiming to be God. However they couldn't recieve it!
It made them angry as it do some today even though it's clear in scripture.
John 20:30-31 reads "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; (Meaning GOD) and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This is written right after Thomas confession in verse 28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND "MY GOD".
This as well as much of John's Gospel is on the deity of Christ
John 1:1-3 "In beginning" I believe this is how it is written in the Greek. IN BEGINNING! There was no beginning!!
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
There's no other scripture needed!
More on the topic.
I'm not sure what an 'ungenerated 'person is but it doesn't sound much like a compliment to me .
With reference to your reference : John chapter 20 verse 31 , you put it this way : But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; then you put brackets containing the words ' meaning God ' .
Isn't what you did in direct contradiction of Revelation chapter 22 verses 18+19 ?
I'm very sorry to be so confrontational , if your message wasn't just intended for me personally then I apologise for reacting so strongly to it .
I think the crux of the matter to me is that the Bible does not come out and say , plain and simple , unequivocally that Jesus is God . If it does I cannot find it and those two verses from Revelation chapter 22 burn in my heart and , to me , they are extremely important and I can't just discard them .
May God bless us all to be polite and respectful when speaking to our family in our Lord Jesus Christ .
John 1:1-3 says this. Heb. 1:8 says that God says this to the Son, Jesus.
Perhaps the real questions is this: Are you willing to believe what Scriptures plainly say about Jesus being God?
May you be graced by the Holy Spirit today in your search for biblical answers to your important questions.
It is clear from how S. Spencer opened his post that it was addressed to everyone who would read it. I am sorry that it went to your e-mail. Please know that this does happen at times when we post. So, be forgiving and do not take it at all personally now that S. Spencer has responded to you and apologized.
As to your question about what is an unregenerated person, this term is for one who has not been born-again by the Holy Spirit and brought to faith and salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the same as being an unbeliever.
Grace be to you today.
I just checked and I didn't realize that I was linked to this thread!
I can certainly see how one would be offended.
I attempted to start a new one. I apologize but yet confused,
I'm not getting the email notifications and to the best of my knowledge I have not replied to anyone's post in a week or so.
I am back at work and can't engage further but will furtger elaborate on my post. Hopefully on a separate thread
Blessings.
I don't thin that an unregenerated person would come to the understanding of what Scriptures attest to as the Triunity of the Godhead because such and understanding is spiritually discerned by one who is made alive in Christ. Those who are not yet regenerated cannot come to the knowledge of the truth in Christ or Scripture unto salvation until they have been made alive and have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.
1 cor. 2:14
Col. 1:13
Unregenerated people have eyes that are blinded to the truth, ears that are shut to hear the truth, and minds that are degenerated and perverse in their thinking about God and His truth. Their hearts are hardened towards God.
Ma k:18
Rom. 1:26-32 describes this state of unbelief in those dead in sin.
I know that you do know all of these things, but I just wished to try to give a sound biblical understanding for your question.
As to the discussion on the oneness and threeness of God, most who have responded to Fuji's questions have discussed these things back and forth many times here. Yet, Fuji is asking questions that truly need true Scriptural answers. He may have not heard or read on these questions before and we should do our best to help him seek what Scriptures do say.
And for the record, the overwhelming majority of Christians believe God is trinitarian, that Jesus existed before He was incarnated, and that He is both God and Man. I read recently that about 90% of serious believers avow to the trinitarian belief.
This forum is certainly open to anyone to express their beliefs.
I just wanted to point out this statistic because in a discussion like this one on this forum you can have people responding that are 50/50 as to embracing trinitarianism/unitariansim which can give the impression to some that both view are widely held when that is not the truth among believers now, nor of Christians historically over 2000 years. This statistic does not prove the truth though
God bless you and all that you do.
By the way keep me in prayer.
I'm considering going back to fellowship in a local Church that I recently left.
Blessings.
I will certainly be praying for you in this matter. May God give you direction and discernment through the Holy Spirit as to whether you return to this fellowship or not.
I did this about 20 years ago. I had left a fellowship over deep concerns about the pastor and leadership and was planted in another church of a different denomination. But after a short time the Holy Spirit drew me to attend services at both fellowships for a time. I did not know why I was to do this at first, but in time I knew that the Spirit was teaching me to worship with and love more deeply those who I had parted with and was grieved by. After a year of this, the lead of the Holy Spirit lifted this "assignment" from me and I just attended the new fellowship. I have not had contact with people from the previous fellowship for over 20 but I continue to pray for those the Spirit reminds me to lift up.
I don't know your reasons form leaving the fellowship, but I am sure that the Holy Spirit will guide you, teach you, and help you to exemplify Jesus in the midst of this fellowship or any fellowship He call you to be a part of.
Pt. 3
The Scriptures clearly say that God will not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8) but in John 17:5 the Father did and does share His divine glory with Jesus, who is also God.
Many places in Scripture state that God created all that there is, AND that Jesus created all that there is ( John 1:1-3; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) Only a Being can create, not an idea or a plan.
And lastly, Jesus is worshipped as God in Rev. along with the Father. ( Rev. 5:1-14; 19:1-8).
Jesus is our Maker, Creator, Lord, and God. He always has been God, not an idea or plan in the mind of God. He is forever the Son of God because John 1:18 in the Greek call Him the only begotten God who has seen God (the Father) and whom declares who God is as the eternal Word.
What one believes about the eternal existence and deity of Jesus will frame how one views the gospel, His sacrifice, our atonement, and that salvation truly comes only from God in Christ alone. Not from one who is only human who lived a sinless life, as Unitarians profess. Jesus, from everlasting to everlasting is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
God is the only Savior (Is. 43:11; Hos. 13:4; Jude 1:25).
Fuji,
May God bless you with true understanding of how Scriptures answer your two questions.
Heb. 1:6 God instructed the angels to worship the Son.
The apostles worshipped Jesus ( Mt. 28:9; Mt. 14:33;. Jn. 20:28)
And the man born blind worshipped Jesus ( Jn. 9:38
This is my part 2
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
See Pt. 3
oops, I meant to say:
I have yet to find any Scripture that states that Jesus existed before His conception in Mary as only an idea or plan of God.
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Was Jesus in heaven before creation? My understanding is no. Many will say Jesus is part of a Triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three distinct persons, all co-equal, and co-eternal so that would put Him in heaven before creation.
God is a Spirit John 4:24, so if Jesus were in heaven His form would be Spirit. Are there verses on their own that would support the Trinity, yes. But we must keep a verse in context and compare it to other Scriptures about the same subject and not start with the answer, or a preconceived idea. We should let the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give us the answer and meaning.
A few thoughts. In John 1:1 what beginning is John referring to, the beginning of creation or the beginning of Jesus's ministry, when He was anointed with the Holy Ghost becoming the Messiah, Matthew 4:16-17. We see the same introduction in 1 John 1:1 and others. In Revelation 19:13 Jesus's name is called the Word of God is that saying Jesus is God?
God was manifested in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, 1 John 1:1, Luke 4:18, John 14:10. The life eternal that was with God was manifested on earth through Jesus that we may fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ 1 John 1:2-7.
I will not go on and on but to me, there is one problem the Trinity doctrine creates I cannot find an answer.
God is perfect and cannot change, in the doctrine that would be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The law was made for man and a man had to fulfill it. A man who could sin had to live a perfect life without sin to pay the penalty. Jesus did and paid the penalties for sin with His death. God cannot die and God cannot sin nor can He be tempted James 1:13, so He could not fulfill the law. Jesus was born without sin as the first Adam but could sin, the first Adam was not obedient and sinned. The last Adam, Jesus, was obedient to the Father and sinned not Romans 5:19. If God sacrificed Himself John 3:16 is not true.
God bless,
RLW
I am trying to understand your belief about the nature of God. So my question is: what do gou believe the Holy Spirit is? A mere impersonal power of God or a separate person within the Godhead?
Thanks, brother, I'm not the best at putting on paper my understanding. I know some Scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as he, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God dwells in us, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and, more. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that does the work of God, Romans 15:19, Jesus did the miracles by the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:28, Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38, Hebrews 2:4.
Jesus said the words He spoke were not His words but the Fathers and God did the works, this was done by the Holy Spirit through Jesus. John 14:10. Jesus said the Holy Spirit/Comforter proceedeth from the Father John 15:26, Jesus said the Holy Ghost will not speak of himself but what he is told, so the Holy Spirit is under the direction of the Father and Jesus, John 16:13.
All the salutations are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is not in any salutations. In Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is the temple of it. No Holy Spirit, what I see in Scripture is the Holy Spirit is the conduit that God works through and now Jesus as well.
I hope this gives you enough info to see how I see the Holy Spirit and I know that is not what many believe. I do not want to offend and I hope I don't, but this is what I see in Scripture. I do not see the Holy Spirit as a person but as the power of God that surrounds this earth by which God and Jesus dwell in us to communicate, guide, and comfort us.
God bless,
RLW
10. 1 Cor 3:16-17, "16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
The grk for "temple" is "naos", that is a place where one lives in eg a house. And the Spirit lives in our bodies, His houses.
John 16:7-11, "7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:..."
11. 1 Cor 12:4-6, "4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."
As seen gifts are given by the Spirit, administrations by Jesus our Lord, and diversities of operations by God.
12. 1 Cor 12:11, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE WILL."
13. Acts 15:28, "FOR IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
14 Rom 18:26-27, "26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
2 Cor 13:13, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
Those are a few I found in the Bible but I think thery are enough to see that the Spirit is a person since it has characteristics of a person and not of an impersonal power.
Rev 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come."
Blessings.
Thank you, I did not start this thread and I should have known where it would lead. I have laid out my understanding of this over the years I have been on this site. I can give you my knowledge on what you replied, like Matthew 3:16-17 You see all three in these verses The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
What I see is that this message was given to John. When he sees the Holy Spirit alight on someone and remains, he will know that person is the one God has revealed to him as the Messiah, His Son, the Lamb of God, who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. What else I see is God's Spirit was in Jesus, not on, God gave Jesus His Spirit without measure to do all the works God did.
God manifested Himself in Jesus on earth through His Spirit. God's Spirit did not leave Jesus, that is what Jesus said to His disciples, they know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17, God's Spirit was in Jesus, and If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.
Matthew 28:19 I can say, I have researched this verse and the manuscripts, and many say it is not in the Greek manuscripts but that does not prove anything. I can also say if this was what Jesus told the disciples to do and the method to baptize, we do not see any baptizing done this way. All baptisms recorded in the New Testament is only done in the name of Jesus. Only in Jesus' name, Acts 2:38, Acts 4:12
I love you, brother, if I reply to all you have sent me nothing will change. I feel tensions rising, things are starting to be said, not by you, like I said I did not start this thread, and if you do not mind, I feel it is best if I do not discuss this subject anymore.
I care too much for those on this site.
God bless,
RLW
I respect your decision to come to an end in this discussion but I think I must clarify something that troubles many christians, which is why there is, or seems to be, such a difference between the gospel of Matthew and Luke's Acts about the name in which christians are baptized. Matthew says in the name of all three and Luke in the name of Jesus. But I will leave that for tomorrow. Just for a hint the key to understand it lies in a detail in the dialogue that Paul had with those disciples in Ephessus. But we will see it tomorrow. GBU
4. John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that HE may abide with you for ever".
The word another (in grk allon) and the word Comforter (Parakleitos) are of masculine gender in grk.".
5. John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (masculine) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you."
Jesus had to go so the Spirit took His place in guiding the church.
6. John 14:13-16, "13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for HE shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." Pay attention please, among others, to that " for he shall not speak of himself"
7. Acts 5:3-4, "3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou GAST NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD " Lie to a thing?
8. Acts 10:19-20, "19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I HAVE SENT THEM" Also 11:12, "And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:"
9. Acts 13:2-4, "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, SEPATATE ME Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus"
See pt 3
I believe that you are aware of the verses I am going to list below and probably you interprete them in your own way but nevertheless.
Verses that show that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal thing, like a mere power:
Firstly it is true that God does everything through His Spirit, but not really everything, we will see it later on. That is why the Spirit is called, especially in the OT, as the hand or arm of God, because as a man uses his hand or arm to do things similarly God uses His Spirit.
1. Matthew 3:16-17, "16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Here we see the Father separate from the Son and the Spirit. The voice from heaven was not the Spirit's voice but Father's
2. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:".
Why is the Holly Spirit included in the name of God if it is a mere thing? And why one name instead of three names?
3. Matthew 12:25-32, "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; ...26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; ...? 28if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.....31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Why is the Spirit insulted if it is not a person?
See pt2
However , so far I have not found good enough , consistent proof , to fix the doctrine of the trinity into my heart or mind . Try as might I just can't see it , for every verse that a person who believes in the trinity quotes , I can find five verses to contradict it . And yes , it also seems to me that some people sometimes start with an idea and then try to find proof to back it up . I'm so sorry if I'm offending any of my brother's or sisters here but I have to speak the truth as I see it , we are all allowed to do that on here aren't we ?
It's a big issue for sure and one that can potentially cause upset , which I don't want to do . I still have some life left to live and throughout all the days of the rest of my life , as long as I am able I shall be studying the Bible . Who knows how I may change my mind ? Any of us may change our minds as we continue to read and study and pray to our Heavenly Father . As long as we all agree , there is only one God , the Holy One of Israel and one mediator between God and man ( and woman ) the man Jesus Christ , who died and was ressurected to eternal life and who shall return to this earth to establish God's Kingdom on it . These things are eternal truth and God does not lie .
May we all do our best to encourage and support each other as we grow together in our understanding of , and appreciation for God's Word and may we exist together in peace and tolerance because none of us in this life , in these bodies of sin , shall be perfect .
Thy Kingdom come Lord .
I would be very interested to learn what those verses are that contradict it (the Trinitarian belief). Would these be verses that state that Jesus was simply a man without a beginning in Heaven with the Father? I don't believe that I have read any, but willing to be corrected. But if your verses to prove this belief in error are simply the verses that show Jesus is God's Son and nothing more, then I would hasten to say, that all Trinitarians would believe in the Sonship of Jesus, for so the Scripture states very clearly.
Then it appears to me, that anyone who wants to disprove the Deity of Christ would need to refer to the many Scriptures we've already and frequently quoted that show Christ's Deity without doubt. Until we can examine these other Scriptures, then only can we learn who actually "starts with an idea (or belief) and then try to find proof to back it up". Not one non-Trinitarian has volunteered to expound those verses, except bro Ronald who gave us his understanding of John 1:1, which I believe can be successfully argued if the whole passage is read, i.e. John 1:1-14. So would I be in order to request you to supply us those verses that contradict the Trinitarian belief? I too wish to learn, especially to see what I have missed in my studies. Thank you.
In understanding that there is only one God who exists as three distinct person, Father, Son and Spirit is clearly taught in Scriptures. When you say that you find verses that support the Trinitarian belief and then say there are verses that contradict this belief you are really saying that the Scriptures contradict each other. But we know that this is not true of Scriptures, because God does not contradict Himself in His revelation.
Perhaps a better way to view this is as a paradox or parallel truths. Both are true, one truth (there is only One God) follows one line of revealed truth in Scripture and another truth (the Father, Son, and Spirit, are all God, distinct persons, but unified in one Being) follows another line of revealed truth in Scripture. As humans, we most likely will not be able to fully comprehend that both of these are true of God but this does not permit us to believe one and not the other. We are to believe both ways God has revealed Himself regardless of how well we understand. This is one aspect of believing God (as Abraham did) by faith.
Again, I wish you well and keep searching Scripture, focusing on what it reveals about God, not cancelling one truth out for another. Embrace all that God is as revealed in Scripture. Believers have done this for 2000 years.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.
I would be the first to confess that the Trinity teaching goes against everything my mind tells me is true, for how indeed, can God be divided into three, let alone Him coming to Earth in human form? Yet fortunately, I have two appeals against holding such a belief: firstly, I would have to twist or alter the Word of God to suit my natural understanding, and this I will not do or else what then would I do to the rest of God's Word & how would it then instruct me if I were to change its meaning to appease my conscience & understanding?
And secondly, my conversion to Christ was very dramatic, requiring a full conversion (so to speak), than just the verbal assent given before my godly parents with maybe my limited childhood understanding. Not only did the Spirit of God come upon me (in Oct 23, 1979), arresting me in my sinful tracks, showing me the awful consequences of my sin & eternal hell, but as I then read the Bible with a regenerated spirit, I wondered 'why would such an Holy God send His only begotten Son to be the payment for my sin, and that I could make no acceptable sacrifice to Him to absolve my sin & guilt'? Couldn't He just provide a spotless heavenly lamb or bullock, where all Israel could see descending from the clouds & hear God's Voice say: 'this lamb is my great provision as sacrifice for your sins & by believing, you will be forgiven and received as my special children'? I thought, wouldn't that be more preferable, than creating another human just to put Him to death for no sins of His Own? We know "that greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" ( John 15:13). And this spoke to me as well; here we have a picture of one laying down his life for another, not having an iota of a chance of escaping death - but that through his death, another life (of someone that he loved) would be spared & given a chance to live. Onto Page 3.
To me, God's Love is overpoweringly expressed & seen, as when God gave His Own Life for us because He loved us so much to do so, rather than bringing forth an animal or even another human being to be slaughtered for us. There's no love in this - at least not the indescribable Love of God. I could easily urge someone else to run into a burning inferno to save a child from certain death rather than do it myself: is that love? - maybe a genuine concern & anguish, but not the Love the Bible speaks of. It took God to send forth Himself (& He chose to send His Word) to instruct & warn His people Israel & then to ultimately to lay down His Life for us. Had Jesus refused or failed to complete this Work, because of sin or fear of people or death, God had no other plan for salvation - this was His only Plan that could save sinners; or else we all remain condemned & destined for the punishment we deserve - eternal separation in agonizing pain.
When I see Jesus in the Bible, I see Him as God Himself, as the Word made flesh, for the suffering of death; for God is Spirit & can never be affected by the limitations, weaknesses, & death that the flesh can be. To be our Sacrifice, the supreme Sacrifice, God had to reveal Himself in Jesus His begotten Son, for the purpose of displaying His Love for us & then executing that Love in Sacrifice. And Paul reminds us clearly in Philippians 2:5-11, that this Jesus was in the very Form of God, i.e. in the Personhood of God, having God's Nature, His Power, His Will, etc; but in receiving human flesh, did not cling onto that Divine Nature, rather laid aside His Divinity, taking on human form, becoming a servant of men humbling Himself (how great must have been that humbling?) to even allow His Life to be put to a most horrifying ignoble death. God didn't deserve this - but His Love compelled Him to go all the way to the Cross for us. I well up in tears just thinking of such undeserved love for a wretch as me. Onto Page 4
As a man, yea as a Son, Jesus now talks to & prays to His Father in Heaven. He also said that He came to only do His Father's Will ( John 6:38), so in every respect, Jesus laid aside His Glory that He enjoyed with & in God, & as a Man waited upon His Father continually.
To the natural mind, how could Jesus be God & then be found praying to & worshiping Him? My answer is that Jesus laid aside that Glory & Position to become a Man, a Man Who came to be sacrificed ( John 12:27), and now a Son, subservient to His Father in all things. So how does God then become a Son? That is why God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son & Holy Spirit - if one aspect of His Nature is removed, I believe that God ceases to be God. Just as if our spirit or soul or body is removed or put to death, we instantly cease to be the person that was once born into the world. God exists as a Tripartite God - He can't exist as any other - that is Who He is (as revealed to us). For our sakes, God chose to take that part of Himself & give it flesh (what we otherwise understand as and called, His Word). This act doesn't render God speechless or in any way deficient in knowledge, for His Word is still active in Christ & by His Spirit. And He has given us His Word (both in Christ & the written Word) & His Spirit, thus causing us to truly become new creatures, alive in Jesus & to be lovingly called, the children of the Most High. What a great privilege - what an undeserved position we have been granted, as those already seated in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST ( Ephesians 2:4-7). And that is how our Father sees us & receives us - His blood-bought, His special children, His Spirit-sealed, forever His - because of His Work alone to ransom us. Onto Page 5.
And finally to this last page, you asked, "what form did Jesus take in Heaven?" In spite of the many answers that we have heard (e.g. He is the archangel Michael, or the Angel of the Lord, the Word of God, etc.), we must only go by what the Bible clearly shows us. I have heard of pre-incarnate appearances of Christ, and while I can't dispute such encounters with Abraham, Lot, Jacob, etc, I can't say with all certainty that Jesus (Who doesn't seem to be called Jesus in Heaven - Luke 1:31), was given a Form in Heaven or was sent out performing God's Will in such manner as angels are sent. I don't believe the Bible clearly states this, but Jesus is revealed as the Word of God involved in creation, He is seen, as God, doing the Will of God in unison with the Spirit. I am happy to just believe that Jesus is God's Word, unseen in any physical Form, but made human for our sakes. Any other belief on my part, would just not sit well, as I can't find clear support in the Word of God.
I apologize for the length of this response, but hopefully it will give you further thoughts for your consideration; serious consideration for such an important doctrine - a doctrine that ranks very high amongst other doctrines that are seriously challenged by others. Blessings.
4rth question:If Jesus is God who was Jesus praying to?
Answer: The Word, a part of Godhead, became a man like us, named Jesus. He was born by the Holy sprit and Mary so His father was God and His mother was Mary. So He was a Son of God but also a Son of Man. Now we have to understand that Jesus' aim was to represent humanity on the cross, that is to be punished by death instead of all of us who commit sins. So He had to be a man, a perfect man, like any other man. That means that he could NOT use His divine powers to do anything but He had to pray to His Father God to do all the miracles. He had to live like any other common man. So that He did. This is what is meant in Philippians 2:5-8, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6Who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery (like satan tried to do) to be equal with God:7But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:"
GBU
[Comment Removed]
1st question: Did Jesus exist in heaven before God created everything ?
Answer: John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
2nd question: Is Jesus God Himself?
Answer: John 1:1-15, "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.2The same was in the beginning with God.3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.10He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.11HE CAME UNTO HIW OWN, and his own received him not.12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14And the WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory AS of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Isn't the above passage adequate to see that Jesus is God?
3rd question: Why is Jesus is also called the Word?
Answer: God hasn't got names like humans. Through His names God reveals certain characteristics of Him to people, eg Father, Allmighty God, YAHWEH which means the self existing God, etc. Jesus is called the Word because the word of God, the absolute truth about God, was revealed to mankind through Him. He is also called other names like, The Light, The Eternal life, The Truth, The Resurrection, etc.
See pt2
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