Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Christ, who is the image of the invisible God, and the word for image is the Greek word EIKON, and it's where we get our word icon from. And it means an exact likeness. It is used to describe what a person sees when they look into a mirror.
You think you're looking at yourself but that's not you. It's your likeness. It's an image. Or you see yourself in the reflection on the water. You're seeing your image. When we get into the book of Hebrews, there's a tremendous assortment of Greek words that talk about the very Spirit of God projecting Himself through the time space factor and taking up residency in the person of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
For by Him, literally in Him, that's the preposition in. In Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, and that's lordships, or principalities, or authorities:
All things were created by Him, and that's the word through. In Greek, it is DIA with the Genitive. All things were created through Him, and for Him: that's EIS.
Colossians 2:5 - For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
For though I am absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying, (more literally rejoicing) and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Those are two military terms, "your order," and the word stedfastness. One means to be in an orderly arrangement or to be lined up properly like a military formation. And stedfastness is the solidity of the strength of that military force. And as far as the order goes, we see that in Chapter 3 Verse 18. He's going to set out the order of this life that we have in Christ.
Colossians 2:7 - Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
The King James says rooted. The word with the "ed" on the end is supposed to give you the sense that it's already happened. Of course that's the Perfect Tense, having been rooted. You have already been rooted in Christ. Once you've received Christ, He is deeply rooted.
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Beware lest any man spoil you, and that's the word for rob, like a robbery. This word for philosophy is the only place in the NT that it's found. PHILEO means love, and SOPHOS means wisdom. It's the love of wisdom. You study knowledge in order to get wisdom.
Don't let anyone spoil or rob you through philosophy, and empty deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (elements) of the world, and not after Christ. Some are very good at presenting scientific facts that they hook together, and they take the logical and reasonable elements of the world and make the presentation sound acceptable. But if it's not according to Christ, it's to be rejected.
Colossians 1:29 - Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working. The word striving is an athletic term, AGONIDZO. It's our word agony but it was used to describe what the athlete goes through. Paul says I'm laboring to the point of exhaustion, agonizing according to His energy, which is energizing in me in power.
What a verse! Paul always gave the credit to Christ. Christ is the one who is energizing in me. And I labor according to His energy which is energizing in me. No human effort. He says it's all the moving and compelling of God's Spirit that makes me do what I do.
Colossians 2:1 - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Paul says for I would that you knew what great conflict I have for you. The word conflict is the word AGONA. It's where we get our English word agony from. And it is an athletic term. When an athlete is told to get involved in the Agona, they're told to strive, or to push.
Paul says I am in this conflict just like an athlete. I have great conflict for you. Paul is in Rome, and he heard what's happening there in Colossae, and he's involved in a great battle with his own self in his heart for these believers.
Colossians 1:19 - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
For it pleased the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell;
Notice I translated this with a definite article, all of (the) fullness, because the Gnostics believe that the fullness was who God is. That was their technical term for God, and this fullness sent out emanations from Him, different angels, and different "gods" to visit us. In Christ dwells all of the fullness of who God is.
Colossians 1:23 - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
It sounds like its conditional. You can be reconciled, have the promise of this position before God in His representation of you, but if you don't continue.
This is the construction in Greek that is known as the First-Class Condition Assumed to be true. He's not saying if you continue on. He's saying since you are continuing in the faith, and listen to this: having been grounded and settled, and not being moved away. There's a lot right there, but basically having been grounded, every Christian that receives Christ has been grounded, and they continue on because of that.
Colossians 1:17 - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is before all things. That's the word PROS, that means in time and importance. He is before all things. And in Him all things consist. The word consist means held together.
Here's what it is saying: In Christ, all things were created, visible and invisible, heaven and earth. All things were created in Him, and through Him, and for Him. Christ created all things. And He created them for Himself. You and I were created by Him for Him, not for us. You can see how far sin has pulled us away from God, and how much we are so self-centered because of sin, and that all day long, I'm living my life like I want to live my life.
I was created by Him, and I was created for Him and His purposes. And most of the day, I live my life not even realizing that He even exists. But that's the damage that sin has done. And He is before all things, time and importance. And in Him all things are being held together.
It's very interesting how the scientists say that because of the structure of the atom, all material things should just blow apart. They say that there's nothing to hold the atoms together. In fact, they are functioning in such a way that they should repel each other. And I find it interesting that scientists cannot explain what holds the atom together. I have even heard of them saying it is due to some sort of "atomic glue."
But in reality, the bible says that Christ is holding all things together. One day He's just going to let go and it will be all over. In Him, all things are held together. Hebrews 1:1-3 tells us that all the ages are being carried along by the word of God. God is propelling history!
Thanks, brother, it's me again. I just wanted to give my understanding. Jesus was the beginning of God's plan and everything that was created was on the account of Jesus. As in Revelation 3:14 Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created and when the fullness of times; Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost born of Mary.
Colossians 1:16 starts with the Greek word hoti which means because, to explain reasons, and ev meaning in, because in him were all things. Also, the same Greek word ev, all things were created in him and for him, same in verse 17 Jesus was before, the Greek word pro, meaning in front of, in him all things were created. My understanding is that Jesus was the reason and purpose of all creation, to me this ties to Ephesians 1:9-11. The mystery of God's will in the fullness of times all things in Christ that were in God's plan that Jesus was the beginning of.
I know some believe Jesus created all and some believe Jesus is the tool that through Him God created all. To me, all of Scripture shows God the Father the one and only God created all. Jesus was the beginning of God's plan and all was for the sake of Jesus who is God's only begotten Son who was not until the fulness of times conceived by the Holy Ghost in Mary.
Ephesians 1:19-23 We have seen and are now seeing God's plan being fulfilled in Jesus all in heaven and earth until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:23. Jesus did not have the authority He was given the authority. We were created for Jesus for the glory of God.
Always nice to hear from you. Sorry for the late reply. I do want to thank you for sharing your understanding on this. I also want to thank you for continuing on in the studies that I am putting together and sharing. If I remember correctly, you have shared your view on this before with me so I don't see anything new that would warrant a response, at least nothing that we haven't already discussed in the past. We do have a different understanding, but that's okay. I will always respect your view and the things you have to share. Right now, I am not able to agree with what you are telling me while at the same time believing in the deity of Christ. It would be contradictive of me to do so.
If the above interpretation troubles you, we can see another verse, Hebrews 1:5, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
What is meant by "this day I begotten you"? Does it refer to Jesus' physical birth? Lets see how Paul explains it in Acts 13:32-33, "32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" So it is obvious that Paul considers that that birth" refers to Jesus' resurrection and not to His physical birth.
So lets go back to that "firstborn from the dead". I think it gets quite clear that it means that Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead. The rest to be resurrected is God's people, either now spiritually or later physically.
Thank you, you definitely can contribute I do not doubt your knowledge of Greek. I understand Greek words have several meanings in English like ev can mean in, by, and through. I may have misunderstood but I must say Revelation 3:14 makes more sense to me, the beginning of the creation of God rather than the principalities of the creation of God. Forgive me if I misunderstood.
Do we see in these verses if Jesus is the creator or God? If Jesus is the start of God's plan, all creation was done for what Jesus would become. Who would gather together all things in Christ in heaven and earth, the new creation?
I agree, this day I have begotten you, refers to Jesus's resurrection, not His conception. He is the first begotten of the dead. I believe His conception was at the fulness of times, Ephesians 1:9-11 when God would send His Messiah to do His will. Jesus at the right hand of the Father putting things in order in heaven, earth, and things to be.
So, if the plan of God is based on who Jesus would be it is understandable that things would be done in, by, or through who Jesus would be.
I know I probably don't make sense, thank you for your knowledge of Greek.
I hope you will please excuse me for commenting on your messages that were not addressed to me , I enjoyed reading them and I am in total agreement with what you professed in them . However , what you say in your messages is not evidence or proof of Jesus bring co eternal with God Himself . I cannot come to that conclusion based on what you have said in those messages . If Jesus is co eternal with God then God can't have created Jesus can He ? Jesus is now immortal for sure and God has placed everything under Jesus's Kingship .
Is Jesus self sustaining , able to exist outside of God's power ? Was Jesus always self sustaining and able to exists outside of God's power ? If Jesus is co eternal and self sustaining why is he referred to as God's Son ? Father's ( and mother's ) bring sons into being , therefore at some point their sons don't exist . However remember Romans chapter 4 verse 17 ? God calleth those things which be not as though they were . Keep in mind that this is not a new thing that God suddenly starts doing , why would that be the case ? It stands to reason that Paul is talking to people who already understand this concept . God is beyond space and time but He speaks to us in ways He knows we will understand . He lowers Himself for our benefit because He loves us and wants us to understand as much as we are able .
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Please forgive me, I believe all that I posted, I just do not want anyone to believe what I do unless they study for the truth on their own. I am sorry if I have placed any doubt in you, I just wanted for you to study where you know the truth, not just take what I believe as truth. I enjoyed and agree with all you replied to me. The division on this subject is harsh, I believe God the Father is the one and only God.
Jesus is God's only Son, as John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus our Lord whom God has placed above all that is in heaven and earth. Everything is reliant on God the Father and His glory including Jesus. Jesus did the will of the Father, not His. Jesus was first in God's plan before anything was created. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.
Jesus had no earthly father therefore He was born without sin same as the first Adam. Is He self-sustaining, all are reliant on God, without God nothing exists including Jesus. My understanding is God the Father is the only eternal being and only in Him is immortality.
Keep studying the Bible and please forgive me if I caused any doubt the truth is in the Bible with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Since you were talking about the grk, I think I can contribute to this discussion.
Rev 3:14, "...the beginning(in grk "arche") of the creation of God;". The word "arche" has many meanings. It may mean "the begining" but it may mean something that is on top of all the others, such as a "principality".
For exmple, Ephessians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities(in grk archae), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.". The grk for "principalities" in this verse is "archae" which is plural for "arche". Similarly Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(in grk archae), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"
So we see that in both verses above the KJB corectly tranaslates the word "archae" as "principalities but wrongly translates it as "begining" in Rev 3:14. The grk "en" in Colossians may mean "in" but also "through". And the later is the right meaning here.
Col 1:17, "kai autos(and He) esti(is) pro panton(before everything), kai ta panta(and everything) en auto(in or through Him) sunesteke(are kept together)"
Lets see another verse that troubles a lot of people. Colossians 1:18, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning(in grk arche), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.". Here the grk "arche" is corectly translated as "begining". The question is: what is really meant by "firstborn from the dead"? Many interpretation of this are given. The one that agrees with all the above verses that clearly show the divinity of Jesus is that Jesus(as a human) is the first child of God who was taken out from the dead (dead people spiritually). Who are the rest of those that are born by God? Us, His brothers and sisters. See pt 2
This all seems so logical to me , if Jesus was co eternal with God Himself then why is Jesus called the Son of God . God is a God of order , we see that in His Word and in His creation . Father's exist before their children do , if Jesus was co eternal wouldn't he be called God's brother ? That sounds ridiculous I know but surely if Jesus was equal and co eternal to God Jesus wouldn't be God's Son , Jesus would have a title that would reflect his status as an equal co eternal being . Father's begat sons , sons proceed from their fathers body , sons bear the image of their father , sons carry in themselves part of their father . Logical progression , this order was invented/ created by God . Children also carry part of their mother in them but ultimately , because of how women were created , being part of the man , it all goes back to the ultimate source of all life male or female , that is God Himself , if God created everything then He really did ! He created everything , everything means everything . He is the only self sustaining entity in the entire universe . Everything in existence only exists because He permits it .
Hello Fuji. If I might share something with you on this very important doctrine. Now this is coming from another aspect of God's Nature; so my question, "Concerning the Holy Spirit, how is God the Father able to send forth His Spirit without Himself becoming deficient in any way? Or, If God is Spirit ( John 4:24), does that mean that God has now come into the world & is therefore absent from His Throne in Heaven?"
Your consideration & response to these questions forms the basis of how God can send forth Himself to fulfil His Will, without suffering deficiency in His Person or thwarting His Plans. Therefore, my belief is that God is able to do this (i.e. sending out His Spirit), just as He is able to send out His Word and give His Word flesh (humanity): John 1:1-14. This is all very mysterious to our human finite minds as we have nothing that we can relate to it, in this world or by human logic. Now, if I could cause my spirit to leave my body & perform my Will elsewhere (which I can't do), then I believe that my body would instantly become lifeless (for the human spirit gives physical life to the body); but not so with God, for He is the Almighty Everlasting One & suffers no limitations in any way, as we do.
Lastly, I appreciated your recent comment & challenge given to us from John 21:20-24: you wrote (in part): "We need to trust what the Bible actually says, not what we think it says". Since both you & I read from the same Scriptures, I find that to trust the Bible in what it says & not what I imagine (or hope) it says, can only first be initiated if we take up the volume of Scripture that speak to us on that subject. If we only had verses declaring the Sonship of Jesus (as you have written about), then I would readily believe that Jesus was a creation of God, through Mary, for the Sacrifice of our sins. Onto Page 2.
But when I read other verses to show that Jesus wasn't created from an earthly platform, but came down from Heaven (e.g. John 3:13), then my long-held belief must be thrown into question & I then submit to the whole of Scripture, or else, avoid/reinterpret those verses that could cause me problems. And that is why your quote of John 21:20-24 would be so important to not depend on what we would like to believe (as it makes sense to mind and logic), but what the Lord (& His Word) are actually wanting me to know & believe. And that can only come when we have all the evidence before us, as given & without human coloring. Blessings.
Thank you for your well-said reply, we must study, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. This site is wonderful as long as we are respectful and honestly care for each other we can discuss anything in the Bible. I hope this inspires you to study, it warrants the study of both sides for your understanding. It is a subject that may take a long time in prayer and study, do it with open ears to the Holy Spirit.
Please do not be upset by me saying these things. I am trying to interact with you in a way that is transparent and honest. I don't think that there needs to be complete agreement on all things on this forum and respect that people differ. But I am glad that now I have a better context to place your viewpoint within the stream of those who claim to be Christian believers.
May God bless you tonight and always. Your postings have cause me to dig deeper into viewpoints I was unaware of before I came on here. I think it is good to be thus informed so that conversations can be surrounded with better understanding and our responses can be more helpful.
Thank you, you do not upset me and I hope I do not upset you, I understand how sensitive this subject is. The only way I know is, to be honest and say what is in my heart and what the Scriptures and my prayers have revealed to me. I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or understanding. I have learned a lot since I have been on this site because of the brothers and sisters here who are willing to share their understanding in love and inspire each other to study, not an I'm right and you are wrong attitude.
I hope you feel you can discuss anything with me in love and respect, I am in my 70s and pretty tough-skinned. As long as our discussions are done in love and inspire each other to study even if we differ, we have the same objective to learn the truth.
I was just thinking of you today and considering some of what you have said in the past about viewing God as only one Person and that Jesus is not God in the flesh. I have wanted to better understand your view, as I have not encountered it before in all the years of my life. I found information on sects that deny the divinity of Jesus and these came up:
Jehovah's Witness,
Christadelphians
The Way International
Worldwide Church of God
Church of Christ (some)
I also found information on Socianism and Unitarianism. Perhaps you associate more with these two than the ones listed above. I reviewed the information on the history of Socianism and Unitarianism along with what is generally professed. These beliefs are very similar to what you have put forward in the past and I was able to read the biblical interpretation used to support these views.
And then, here you are tonight responding to Jesse on just the beliefs I was reading about. So all of this is timely. I am glad to find sources that explain your viewpoints more fully as you have not done so here due to limitations of such a forum.
Even so, the information does not change my trinitarian view of God, nor the deity of Jesus and the Biblical texts that show that Jesus is worshipped as God (for only God is to be worshipped). I hope we can continue to discuss these topics over time. I am confident that the Lord will lead us to a more refined truth from His Word.
Please know that I pray for you often along with so many others on this forum. I think of you fondly even though I do not agree with you on these matters and think that someone who denies the Trinity and the deity of Jesus is speaks false teaching that I believe leads to another gospel and another Jesus than what Scripture attests to.
Ronald, I say this not to be harsh with you, nor to berate you, nor to discourage you from presenting your viewpoint. Rather, I just want to convey to you that your view of God and Jesus disturbs me greatly
I did not see your first reply sorry; I do not want to change your trinitarian view of God I do not have the right; I am just a man. I am not a member of any of the sects you have listed, I have not heard of most of them. Just to let you know a little of my past. When I was young, I went to an Advent Christian church. They believed and taught the Trinity, I was there until I was in my early 20s.
I spent most of my life in the world away from church and was not drawn back to God until the mid-90s. My wife was attacked by demonic forces and it was about a two-year battle. I was brought to my knees, and I saw and experienced things I did not believe were real, it would take a book to tell all that happened in those 2 or so years but God got my attention.
I started reading and studying my Bible again and I went to many different churches. I have been alone now for many years; do not have children and my family is all past. All the churches close to me have the same view as yours, if I do not believe in the Trinity, I am not a Christian and am not welcome.
I do not watch blogs or TV preachers so when I post it is only what I have received from the Bible in prayer, not other people's teaching and I am sorry if it disturbs you. Like I said all I know is to tell the truth as I know it. I love God and what He did for me in sacrificing His Son to save somebody like me.
We are not Christians because we have perfect doctrine, but because we have been bought and saved by Jesus. So, I do not think that non-trinitarians are not Christians, necessarily. Rather, I think their unitarian doctrines are false teachings. I am sure you feel the same about Trinitarians. I apologize if you misunderstood me, I may have conveyed something I did not mean. I do not think we are to decide if one who professes Jesus as Savior and Lord is saved or not. But I do think we are to stand what one professes as doctrine against the Scriptures to see if the doctrines are true or not as best as we can tell. But we do not need to necessarily be doctrine police to one another, but we may be compelled to defend our own doctrine vigorously, passionately, and with certitude.
Thank you so much for your response to my post. I do not think at all that you are trying to convince of Unitarianism. And I am not trying to convince you of Trinitarianism, truly. But each of us are presenting our beliefs concerning God's oneness and Jesus' deity or lack of it to the best of our ability.
And I thank you for the background of your life experience. I find it interesting that you have not read any sources explaining Unitarianism as what you have said in many posts echo almost verbatim what the tenets are of Unitarianism and how Scripture is interpreted to support these tenets. Even so, I believe what you say on this matter.
I am glad we have had the opportunity to talk through many of these ideas on this forum, not just you and me, but you and others, and me and others. So, we are "iron sharpening iron" and I appreciate growing in understanding your viewpoint.
I don't think that you need to be a member of any of the sects I mentioned, just as I don't think I need to be a member of any sect that adhere to trinitarianism. As Paul said in Gal. 6:15, it is the new creation that truly matters, as only regenerated people can be considered true believers, as Paul seems to teach.
I cannot imagine for myself, growing up in church community as a believer and then spending decades apart from faith in God, then to come back to Him again. This is because I have believed all my life, read of heard the Bible read all my life, and have had fellowship with other believers all my life. But most of all, I have had an uninterrupted relationship with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all my life. Your experience is just something foreign to me, but many have had experiences similar to yours and many have had experiences similar to mine. God works with humans individually. For me, to be separated from God after knowing Him would be so agonizing. And returning to Him would be so very joyful filled with thankfulness and praise.
Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Christ, who is the image of the invisible God, and the word for image is the Greek word EIKON, and it's where we get our word icon from. And it means an exact likeness. It is used to describe what a person sees when they look into a mirror.
You think you're looking at yourself but that's not you. It's your likeness. It's an image. Or you see yourself in the reflection on the water. You're seeing your image. When we get into the book of Hebrews, there's a tremendous assortment of Greek words that talk about the very Spirit of God projecting Himself through the time space factor and taking up residency in the person of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
For by Him, literally in Him, that's the preposition in. In Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, and that's lordships, or principalities, or authorities:
All things were created by Him, and that's the word through. In Greek, it is DIA with the Genitive. All things were created through Him, and for Him: that's EIS.
Colossians 2:5 - For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
For though I am absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying, (more literally rejoicing) and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Those are two military terms, "your order," and the word stedfastness. One means to be in an orderly arrangement or to be lined up properly like a military formation. And stedfastness is the solidity of the strength of that military force. And as far as the order goes, we see that in Chapter 3 Verse 18. He's going to set out the order of this life that we have in Christ.
Colossians 2:7 - Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
The King James says rooted. The word with the "ed" on the end is supposed to give you the sense that it's already happened. Of course that's the Perfect Tense, having been rooted. You have already been rooted in Christ. Once you've received Christ, He is deeply rooted.
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Beware lest any man spoil you, and that's the word for rob, like a robbery. This word for philosophy is the only place in the NT that it's found. PHILEO means love, and SOPHOS means wisdom. It's the love of wisdom. You study knowledge in order to get wisdom.
Don't let anyone spoil or rob you through philosophy, and empty deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (elements) of the world, and not after Christ. Some are very good at presenting scientific facts that they hook together, and they take the logical and reasonable elements of the world and make the presentation sound acceptable. But if it's not according to Christ, it's to be rejected.
Colossians 1:29 - Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working. The word striving is an athletic term, AGONIDZO. It's our word agony but it was used to describe what the athlete goes through. Paul says I'm laboring to the point of exhaustion, agonizing according to His energy, which is energizing in me in power.
What a verse! Paul always gave the credit to Christ. Christ is the one who is energizing in me. And I labor according to His energy which is energizing in me. No human effort. He says it's all the moving and compelling of God's Spirit that makes me do what I do.
Colossians 2:1 - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Paul says for I would that you knew what great conflict I have for you. The word conflict is the word AGONA. It's where we get our English word agony from. And it is an athletic term. When an athlete is told to get involved in the Agona, they're told to strive, or to push.
Paul says I am in this conflict just like an athlete. I have great conflict for you. Paul is in Rome, and he heard what's happening there in Colossae, and he's involved in a great battle with his own self in his heart for these believers.
Colossians 1:19 - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
For it pleased the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell;
Notice I translated this with a definite article, all of (the) fullness, because the Gnostics believe that the fullness was who God is. That was their technical term for God, and this fullness sent out emanations from Him, different angels, and different "gods" to visit us. In Christ dwells all of the fullness of who God is.
Colossians 1:23 - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
It sounds like its conditional. You can be reconciled, have the promise of this position before God in His representation of you, but if you don't continue.
This is the construction in Greek that is known as the First-Class Condition Assumed to be true. He's not saying if you continue on. He's saying since you are continuing in the faith, and listen to this: having been grounded and settled, and not being moved away. There's a lot right there, but basically having been grounded, every Christian that receives Christ has been grounded, and they continue on because of that.
Colossians 1:17 - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is before all things. That's the word PROS, that means in time and importance. He is before all things. And in Him all things consist. The word consist means held together.
Here's what it is saying: In Christ, all things were created, visible and invisible, heaven and earth. All things were created in Him, and through Him, and for Him. Christ created all things. And He created them for Himself. You and I were created by Him for Him, not for us. You can see how far sin has pulled us away from God, and how much we are so self-centered because of sin, and that all day long, I'm living my life like I want to live my life.
I was created by Him, and I was created for Him and His purposes. And most of the day, I live my life not even realizing that He even exists. But that's the damage that sin has done. And He is before all things, time and importance. And in Him all things are being held together.
It's very interesting how the scientists say that because of the structure of the atom, all material things should just blow apart. They say that there's nothing to hold the atoms together. In fact, they are functioning in such a way that they should repel each other. And I find it interesting that scientists cannot explain what holds the atom together. I have even heard of them saying it is due to some sort of "atomic glue."
But in reality, the bible says that Christ is holding all things together. One day He's just going to let go and it will be all over. In Him, all things are held together. Hebrews 1:1-3 tells us that all the ages are being carried along by the word of God. God is propelling history!
Thanks, brother, it's me again. I just wanted to give my understanding. Jesus was the beginning of God's plan and everything that was created was on the account of Jesus. As in Revelation 3:14 Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created and when the fullness of times; Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost born of Mary.
Colossians 1:16 starts with the Greek word hoti which means because, to explain reasons, and ev meaning in, because in him were all things. Also, the same Greek word ev, all things were created in him and for him, same in verse 17 Jesus was before, the Greek word pro, meaning in front of, in him all things were created. My understanding is that Jesus was the reason and purpose of all creation, to me this ties to Ephesians 1:9-11. The mystery of God's will in the fullness of times all things in Christ that were in God's plan that Jesus was the beginning of.
I know some believe Jesus created all and some believe Jesus is the tool that through Him God created all. To me, all of Scripture shows God the Father the one and only God created all. Jesus was the beginning of God's plan and all was for the sake of Jesus who is God's only begotten Son who was not until the fulness of times conceived by the Holy Ghost in Mary.
Ephesians 1:19-23 We have seen and are now seeing God's plan being fulfilled in Jesus all in heaven and earth until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:23. Jesus did not have the authority He was given the authority. We were created for Jesus for the glory of God.
God bless,
RLW
Always nice to hear from you. Sorry for the late reply. I do want to thank you for sharing your understanding on this. I also want to thank you for continuing on in the studies that I am putting together and sharing. If I remember correctly, you have shared your view on this before with me so I don't see anything new that would warrant a response, at least nothing that we haven't already discussed in the past. We do have a different understanding, but that's okay. I will always respect your view and the things you have to share. Right now, I am not able to agree with what you are telling me while at the same time believing in the deity of Christ. It would be contradictive of me to do so.
Blessings to you also, my brother!
If the above interpretation troubles you, we can see another verse, Hebrews 1:5, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
What is meant by "this day I begotten you"? Does it refer to Jesus' physical birth? Lets see how Paul explains it in Acts 13:32-33, "32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" So it is obvious that Paul considers that that birth" refers to Jesus' resurrection and not to His physical birth.
So lets go back to that "firstborn from the dead". I think it gets quite clear that it means that Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead. The rest to be resurrected is God's people, either now spiritually or later physically.
Thank you, you definitely can contribute I do not doubt your knowledge of Greek. I understand Greek words have several meanings in English like ev can mean in, by, and through. I may have misunderstood but I must say Revelation 3:14 makes more sense to me, the beginning of the creation of God rather than the principalities of the creation of God. Forgive me if I misunderstood.
Do we see in these verses if Jesus is the creator or God? If Jesus is the start of God's plan, all creation was done for what Jesus would become. Who would gather together all things in Christ in heaven and earth, the new creation?
I agree, this day I have begotten you, refers to Jesus's resurrection, not His conception. He is the first begotten of the dead. I believe His conception was at the fulness of times, Ephesians 1:9-11 when God would send His Messiah to do His will. Jesus at the right hand of the Father putting things in order in heaven, earth, and things to be.
So, if the plan of God is based on who Jesus would be it is understandable that things would be done in, by, or through who Jesus would be.
I know I probably don't make sense, thank you for your knowledge of Greek.
God bless,
RLW
Is Jesus self sustaining , able to exist outside of God's power ? Was Jesus always self sustaining and able to exists outside of God's power ? If Jesus is co eternal and self sustaining why is he referred to as God's Son ? Father's ( and mother's ) bring sons into being , therefore at some point their sons don't exist . However remember Romans chapter 4 verse 17 ? God calleth those things which be not as though they were . Keep in mind that this is not a new thing that God suddenly starts doing , why would that be the case ? It stands to reason that Paul is talking to people who already understand this concept . God is beyond space and time but He speaks to us in ways He knows we will understand . He lowers Himself for our benefit because He loves us and wants us to understand as much as we are able .
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Please forgive me, I believe all that I posted, I just do not want anyone to believe what I do unless they study for the truth on their own. I am sorry if I have placed any doubt in you, I just wanted for you to study where you know the truth, not just take what I believe as truth. I enjoyed and agree with all you replied to me. The division on this subject is harsh, I believe God the Father is the one and only God.
Jesus is God's only Son, as John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus our Lord whom God has placed above all that is in heaven and earth. Everything is reliant on God the Father and His glory including Jesus. Jesus did the will of the Father, not His. Jesus was first in God's plan before anything was created. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.
Jesus had no earthly father therefore He was born without sin same as the first Adam. Is He self-sustaining, all are reliant on God, without God nothing exists including Jesus. My understanding is God the Father is the only eternal being and only in Him is immortality.
Keep studying the Bible and please forgive me if I caused any doubt the truth is in the Bible with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
God bless,
RLW
Since you were talking about the grk, I think I can contribute to this discussion.
Rev 3:14, "...the beginning(in grk "arche") of the creation of God;". The word "arche" has many meanings. It may mean "the begining" but it may mean something that is on top of all the others, such as a "principality".
For exmple, Ephessians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities(in grk archae), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.". The grk for "principalities" in this verse is "archae" which is plural for "arche". Similarly Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(in grk archae), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"
So we see that in both verses above the KJB corectly tranaslates the word "archae" as "principalities but wrongly translates it as "begining" in Rev 3:14. The grk "en" in Colossians may mean "in" but also "through". And the later is the right meaning here.
Col 1:17, "kai autos(and He) esti(is) pro panton(before everything), kai ta panta(and everything) en auto(in or through Him) sunesteke(are kept together)"
Lets see another verse that troubles a lot of people. Colossians 1:18, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning(in grk arche), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.". Here the grk "arche" is corectly translated as "begining". The question is: what is really meant by "firstborn from the dead"? Many interpretation of this are given. The one that agrees with all the above verses that clearly show the divinity of Jesus is that Jesus(as a human) is the first child of God who was taken out from the dead (dead people spiritually). Who are the rest of those that are born by God? Us, His brothers and sisters. See pt 2
Hello Fuji. If I might share something with you on this very important doctrine. Now this is coming from another aspect of God's Nature; so my question, "Concerning the Holy Spirit, how is God the Father able to send forth His Spirit without Himself becoming deficient in any way? Or, If God is Spirit ( John 4:24), does that mean that God has now come into the world & is therefore absent from His Throne in Heaven?"
Your consideration & response to these questions forms the basis of how God can send forth Himself to fulfil His Will, without suffering deficiency in His Person or thwarting His Plans. Therefore, my belief is that God is able to do this (i.e. sending out His Spirit), just as He is able to send out His Word and give His Word flesh (humanity): John 1:1-14. This is all very mysterious to our human finite minds as we have nothing that we can relate to it, in this world or by human logic. Now, if I could cause my spirit to leave my body & perform my Will elsewhere (which I can't do), then I believe that my body would instantly become lifeless (for the human spirit gives physical life to the body); but not so with God, for He is the Almighty Everlasting One & suffers no limitations in any way, as we do.
Lastly, I appreciated your recent comment & challenge given to us from John 21:20-24: you wrote (in part): "We need to trust what the Bible actually says, not what we think it says". Since both you & I read from the same Scriptures, I find that to trust the Bible in what it says & not what I imagine (or hope) it says, can only first be initiated if we take up the volume of Scripture that speak to us on that subject. If we only had verses declaring the Sonship of Jesus (as you have written about), then I would readily believe that Jesus was a creation of God, through Mary, for the Sacrifice of our sins. Onto Page 2.
But when I read other verses to show that Jesus wasn't created from an earthly platform, but came down from Heaven (e.g. John 3:13), then my long-held belief must be thrown into question & I then submit to the whole of Scripture, or else, avoid/reinterpret those verses that could cause me problems. And that is why your quote of John 21:20-24 would be so important to not depend on what we would like to believe (as it makes sense to mind and logic), but what the Lord (& His Word) are actually wanting me to know & believe. And that can only come when we have all the evidence before us, as given & without human coloring. Blessings.
Thank you for your well-said reply, we must study, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. This site is wonderful as long as we are respectful and honestly care for each other we can discuss anything in the Bible. I hope this inspires you to study, it warrants the study of both sides for your understanding. It is a subject that may take a long time in prayer and study, do it with open ears to the Holy Spirit.
God bless,
RLW
Please do not be upset by me saying these things. I am trying to interact with you in a way that is transparent and honest. I don't think that there needs to be complete agreement on all things on this forum and respect that people differ. But I am glad that now I have a better context to place your viewpoint within the stream of those who claim to be Christian believers.
May God bless you tonight and always. Your postings have cause me to dig deeper into viewpoints I was unaware of before I came on here. I think it is good to be thus informed so that conversations can be surrounded with better understanding and our responses can be more helpful.
Thank you, you do not upset me and I hope I do not upset you, I understand how sensitive this subject is. The only way I know is, to be honest and say what is in my heart and what the Scriptures and my prayers have revealed to me. I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or understanding. I have learned a lot since I have been on this site because of the brothers and sisters here who are willing to share their understanding in love and inspire each other to study, not an I'm right and you are wrong attitude.
I hope you feel you can discuss anything with me in love and respect, I am in my 70s and pretty tough-skinned. As long as our discussions are done in love and inspire each other to study even if we differ, we have the same objective to learn the truth.
My prayers are for you and your family as well.
God bless,
RLW
I was just thinking of you today and considering some of what you have said in the past about viewing God as only one Person and that Jesus is not God in the flesh. I have wanted to better understand your view, as I have not encountered it before in all the years of my life. I found information on sects that deny the divinity of Jesus and these came up:
Jehovah's Witness,
Christadelphians
The Way International
Worldwide Church of God
Church of Christ (some)
I also found information on Socianism and Unitarianism. Perhaps you associate more with these two than the ones listed above. I reviewed the information on the history of Socianism and Unitarianism along with what is generally professed. These beliefs are very similar to what you have put forward in the past and I was able to read the biblical interpretation used to support these views.
And then, here you are tonight responding to Jesse on just the beliefs I was reading about. So all of this is timely. I am glad to find sources that explain your viewpoints more fully as you have not done so here due to limitations of such a forum.
Even so, the information does not change my trinitarian view of God, nor the deity of Jesus and the Biblical texts that show that Jesus is worshipped as God (for only God is to be worshipped). I hope we can continue to discuss these topics over time. I am confident that the Lord will lead us to a more refined truth from His Word.
Please know that I pray for you often along with so many others on this forum. I think of you fondly even though I do not agree with you on these matters and think that someone who denies the Trinity and the deity of Jesus is speaks false teaching that I believe leads to another gospel and another Jesus than what Scripture attests to.
Ronald, I say this not to be harsh with you, nor to berate you, nor to discourage you from presenting your viewpoint. Rather, I just want to convey to you that your view of God and Jesus disturbs me greatly
I did not see your first reply sorry; I do not want to change your trinitarian view of God I do not have the right; I am just a man. I am not a member of any of the sects you have listed, I have not heard of most of them. Just to let you know a little of my past. When I was young, I went to an Advent Christian church. They believed and taught the Trinity, I was there until I was in my early 20s.
I spent most of my life in the world away from church and was not drawn back to God until the mid-90s. My wife was attacked by demonic forces and it was about a two-year battle. I was brought to my knees, and I saw and experienced things I did not believe were real, it would take a book to tell all that happened in those 2 or so years but God got my attention.
I started reading and studying my Bible again and I went to many different churches. I have been alone now for many years; do not have children and my family is all past. All the churches close to me have the same view as yours, if I do not believe in the Trinity, I am not a Christian and am not welcome.
I do not watch blogs or TV preachers so when I post it is only what I have received from the Bible in prayer, not other people's teaching and I am sorry if it disturbs you. Like I said all I know is to tell the truth as I know it. I love God and what He did for me in sacrificing His Son to save somebody like me.
God bless,
RLW
One last thing,
We are not Christians because we have perfect doctrine, but because we have been bought and saved by Jesus. So, I do not think that non-trinitarians are not Christians, necessarily. Rather, I think their unitarian doctrines are false teachings. I am sure you feel the same about Trinitarians. I apologize if you misunderstood me, I may have conveyed something I did not mean. I do not think we are to decide if one who professes Jesus as Savior and Lord is saved or not. But I do think we are to stand what one professes as doctrine against the Scriptures to see if the doctrines are true or not as best as we can tell. But we do not need to necessarily be doctrine police to one another, but we may be compelled to defend our own doctrine vigorously, passionately, and with certitude.
Be blessed Ronald.
Thank you so much for your response to my post. I do not think at all that you are trying to convince of Unitarianism. And I am not trying to convince you of Trinitarianism, truly. But each of us are presenting our beliefs concerning God's oneness and Jesus' deity or lack of it to the best of our ability.
And I thank you for the background of your life experience. I find it interesting that you have not read any sources explaining Unitarianism as what you have said in many posts echo almost verbatim what the tenets are of Unitarianism and how Scripture is interpreted to support these tenets. Even so, I believe what you say on this matter.
I am glad we have had the opportunity to talk through many of these ideas on this forum, not just you and me, but you and others, and me and others. So, we are "iron sharpening iron" and I appreciate growing in understanding your viewpoint.
I don't think that you need to be a member of any of the sects I mentioned, just as I don't think I need to be a member of any sect that adhere to trinitarianism. As Paul said in Gal. 6:15, it is the new creation that truly matters, as only regenerated people can be considered true believers, as Paul seems to teach.
I cannot imagine for myself, growing up in church community as a believer and then spending decades apart from faith in God, then to come back to Him again. This is because I have believed all my life, read of heard the Bible read all my life, and have had fellowship with other believers all my life. But most of all, I have had an uninterrupted relationship with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all my life. Your experience is just something foreign to me, but many have had experiences similar to yours and many have had experiences similar to mine. God works with humans individually. For me, to be separated from God after knowing Him would be so agonizing. And returning to Him would be so very joyful filled with thankfulness and praise.
Talk more tomorrow.
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