Q: The city of God is foursquare, so is the altar of incense? In the volume of each believer there must be certain golden ratio so a believer grows from glory to glory, Does it not?
A: Certainly. The altar has a certain position so has the city of God in the new heaven and new earth. What God specified for the tabernacle is after the pattern shown to Moses. (Ex.30:2) Let us consider these. An altar is "A cubit shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof; foursquare shall it be: and two cubits shall be the height thereof." Father and Son as Jesus said, "My Father and I are one. "Two cubits shall be the height thereof" denote the two commandments Jesus taught us. (Matt.22:40). The golden ratio therefore sets these relationship in relation to the world without. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." So how shall we consider the altar, as dress to change for occasions or as a living sacrifice? Paul exhorts,"that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."(Ro.12:1-2)
"And thou shalt put it before the vail" The altar is set before the vail representing the face, "and the firmament sheweth his handywork" and the glory of heaven interfaces with earth so it iis a face; it is in this sense Paul writes here, "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." In short our heart is a kind of glass which adds to our understanding, "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2 Pe.1:4-8)
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."(2 Co.3:18) This liberty has freed us from law of sin.
The same group that tell you that a believer will be judged again for their salvation is often the same group that says you can lose your salvation.
They often ignore scripture such as John 10:28-29 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. and Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
This comes from a lack of understanding the nature of salvation/Justification.
However there are many deceived amongst us in any congregation and will to be judged "by" their works and face condemnation "BECAUSE" they never truly trusted Christ and sought to add their own justification to the gift of Christ.
Read the whole sentence, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Eternal life comes with condition. The sheep has to abide in the hand of Christ.
It is sandwiched between two verses,"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" and the other,"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."(v.29)
Now what have we here?
'My sheep hear my voice," and follow him all the way. My father gave them (the sheep)and it is what the everlasting covenant states. Sheep are entrusted to the Son by Father. St Paul says,"God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:/According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." (Ep.1:3-4) Abraham and you included are thus given over to his Son. Prayer of Jesus ( John 17) also makes it clear. Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him. The other is the voice of robbers and hirelings. They also speak eternal life and line their pockets.
You asked that I read the whole sentence. I posted the whole sentence.
However you added to the sentence when you stated;
(The sheep has to abide in the hand of Christ.)
Bennymkje the sheep is not holding on to Christ.
Christ is holding on to them. That's what a shepherd does!
If a sheep gets lost he go get them! Christ sheep never get lost!
If they get out of line he has a staff!
I suppose you put the same conditions on Jude 1:24, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Bennymkje sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.
As I mentioned in the first ever discussion, you are free to disagree and unless grace is given from above many things to discern the right from wrong can cause divisions. In essentials unity, and in non-essentials charity. You have to determine yourself which is which.
Sheep is likely to go astray and the good shepherd at times shall hold the lamb close and it is for the lamb's safety. Jesus is the true vine and branches are running like sheep saying once saved is saved. The branches abide in the vine drawing nutrients and the goodness of the tree. Third analogy I can cite: God commanded Moses to make the altar of incense. "And two golden rings shalt thou make to it under the crown of it, by the two corners thereof, upon the two sides of it shalt thou make it; and they shall be for places for the staves to bear it withal."(Ex.30:4) The body of a believer is a living sacrifice. You are not to remove the rings ever. You are not free to burn strange mixture of incense therein. Instead the incense has to be of precise mix so you shall be a sweet smelling savour to God. Think it over.
I stand in position with you on eternal security, or the permanency of salvation. Amen! I believe that salvation is something that cannot be taken away or lost. You mentioned that you disagreed with everything that he (Bennymkje) said.
Even though I am not in agreement on everything said, there was something said that I find some truth in. The statement that "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him" does have some truth to it.
Here's why I say so:
When I look at this statement with the key word being "without," it tells me that a person cannot be saved forever (eternally saved) unless they commit their life completely to Christ and are born of God's Spirit. In other words, for you and I and all those who believe in eternal security, once saved is indeed forever saved once we have completely surrendered our lives to Jesus Christ and been born of His Spirit.
Unless that was not the intent of that particular statement, I have to agree that if one completely commits their life to Christ (Surrenders their life to Him), and is born of His Spirit, that person is saved forever. Eternally saved! At least that's how I read that statement.
But if the message is that a born-again believer can lose their salvation, then I stand with you in disagreement. I know this is a sensitive topic and I suspect I might take some heat for this, but I know where I stand in my relationship with Christ. We have a salvation that can never be taken away from us and a Savior who has promised to keep us by His power until the day that He comes to redeem us! If our salvation is dependent upon us, we're in trouble.
May the Lord bless you as you continue in fellowship with Him and His Word!
I agree. Salvation requires complete surrender to Christ, making Him the Lord of your life. There is no partial salvation. A person is either fully saved or not saved at all. When Christ saves us, He gives us eternal life, or shall I say He gives us Himself and He is eternal! So, if we have Christ the eternal one in us, and He has promised to never leave nor forsake us, we have eternal life, never to be lost!
My mistake This sentence "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him". It should read as "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be borne by him." I meant in the sense 'abiding' or carried about as the lamb by the good shepherd. Jesus of God has become sanctification. So total sanctification as far as our salvation concerned is our worship. It is due to him. Final salvation is not you or I can say but it rests with Jesus Christ. God looks not as man sees so shall we leave him that privilege, shall we?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Ephesians 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
As S Spencer has said this is not about salvation, through Jesus we have the gift of eternal life. Please do not be confused, the truth is in the Scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Many are looking to be taken to heaven before the great tribulation of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet.
We all will be judged Acts 17:31Hebrews 9:272 Corinthians 5:10
There will be two resurrections; the first is when Jesus returns, after Satan, the beast, and the false prophet have their 3.5 years of tribulation, Revelation 13:1-5Matthew 24:29-312 Thessalonians 2:1-5.
When Jesus returns with His angels, the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Satan is locked in the bottomless pit and Jesus will set up the kingdom, and those chosen, and faithful who are first resurrected will rule with Jesus, Revelation 16, 17, 18, 19. After the battle, in Revelation 20:5 we see Thrones and judgment is given to them who were in the first resurrection and given the honor to reign with Jesus during the 1000 years.
We see in Revelation 20:5-6 the rest of the dead lived not until after the 1000 years and the blessing on those who will be priests of God who will reign with Jesus in the millennium on earth, not heaven. There will be different rewards for the saved who will live in eternity with God and Jesus.
In Daniel 12:2-3 we see some will shine greater than others and also, we see those in this resurrection, there will be those who will awake to everlasting life, and some who will awake to everlasting contempt. We also see in John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46 what we see in the white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 the rest of the dead, some will go into eternal life and some who are not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
There is much more to study, you should study for your conscience, we must not be deceived Matthew 24:4.
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Pelya have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior?
If so, do you think the blood of the God provided Lamb was adequate? Yes it was!
Christ took your place on the cross and God didn't spare him.
Christ was Judged in your place.
For you to be judged again, Christ died in vain!
John 5:24 reads "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Believers will be judged for their works AFTER salvation NOT "for salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.
Pelya Eternal life is something you have NOW, it's not something you get later!
The same Spirit that saves you, it also seals you! Ephesians 4:30.
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24.
2 Corinthians 5:10 says ALL will be judged- everyone. I don't buy into this white throne narrative people are claiming. There's only one judgment day and everyone will be judged on that same day according to what the Bible says. The root of a separate VIP judgment seems to be another attempt to trick people into avoiding moral responsibility- assuming they're in some special VIP club or something. Yeah, right- the first will be last and the last will be first. God opposes the proud. Pride is before the fall. Many will cry Lord, Lord in the end, and they will be so shocked they don't get the VIP treatment they expected, even demanded, because they assumed God existed for them, not them for God.
In these final days people are saying all kinds of crazy untrue things and we are to be on our guard for the enemy's deceptive tricks. He uses people to deceive us and the word says there are many antiChrists who deny Christ but try to trick us through smooth and appealing talk.
When you say you "don't buy into this white throne narrative people are claiming," I gather that you are referring to the narrative I shared, so I felt a need to respond.
First, I want to say that I agree with you when you say that God opposes the proud, pride is before the fall, and that we must be on guard in these final days to the enemy's deceptive tricks. But please know that I am not the enemy!
Now, concerning 2 Corinthians 5:10, in context, when Paul says "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;" he is referring to all believers in Christ Jesus. If we take each verse, beginning with Verse 1, it seems pretty clear that Paul is speaking to the believers in Corinth.
If we take every single verse in context from Verse 1 leading up to Verse 10 and examine the words "we" and "us" in each of these verses, how would these verses be applicable to a person who flat out rejects Christ?
When Paul says we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, he is speaking about all believers. That's the "all" Paul is referring to. This judgment seat is called the Bema Seat judgment, and it is for believers only.
There is a difference and a gap between the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ that Paul spoke about in 2 Corinthians 5:10, and the vision of the Great White Throne judgment that was given to John in Revelation 20:11-15.
We do have a different view, but I can assure you that I'm in no way "attempting to trick anyone into avoiding moral responsibility," I don't assume that I'm in "some special VIP club," and I do not "expect VIP treatment" when I stand before God. When I stand before God, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. My only hope of entering in is that He is going to see Christ in me.
We all have things to contribute to this forum. There will be disagreements from time to time, but when disagreement comes, neither side should be considered an enemy trying to deceive others.
Both believers and non-believers will be judged. There is a judgment for believers, and there is a judgement for non-believers. Believers are judged at the Bema Seat judgement of Christ. Non-believers will be judged separately at the Great White Throne judgment.
So, the answer to your question is no, we (born again believers) will not be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. That is reserved for the wicked dead only. Revelation Chapter 20 speaks about the Great White Throne judgment. It seems pretty clear that all those at this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.
Please think about this: You mentioned the rapture and as you probably are aware, this is for believers only. In 1 Thessalonians Chater 4, it tells us that the dead (In Christ) will rise from the grave. It doesn't say anything about the wicked dead rising in the rapture.
So where are the wicked dead after the rapture? While we are with Christ, they are still in Hades awaiting their final judgment which in Revelation 20:13, it says that the sea gave up the dead (wicked dead) which were in it; and death and hell (this is actually Hades, not Hell), delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Please know that these are the wicked dead, not believers. Revelation 20:14 gives us their fate. It says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Again, this is Hades. Right now, no believers are in Hades. They were released with the Lord's message to them.
But the non-believers were left there. And that's where the non-believers go today, until the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ, which after that they will be judged (at the Great White Throne) and cast into the lake of fire. So, this judgment (Great White Throne) cannot be for believers.
Dear Peyla: This question typically involves Post Millenial and often Reformed believers who don't believe in the Millennial rule of Christ as coming after the Tribulation; they believe Christ returns instead and the new heaven and earth immediately commence.
There are many reasons that I disagree with that eschatological viewpoint but I won't elaborate here except to say that a literal interpretation of passages in Isaiah and Revelation in particular should make it clear enough that a literal 1000 year rule and reign of Christ will occur on the earth; as many allude to being like the seventh day of creation in the seventh millenium of earth which according to the Jewish calendar is near 6000 years at present (and supposedly off by about 200 years).
Anyway; the principal difference is that those whose works are judged are cast into the lake of fire which would indicate the unsaved status of those in that judgment from all the lost dead from all ages of earth. I have pointed out that the exception to those whose names weren't in the Book of Life would be the physical survivors for the entire Millennium period; who no doubt would live as Methuselah and Noah did over 900 years. Those who would die at 100 are considered accursed ( Isaiah 65:20).
This group would likely enter heaven as the old heaven and earth pass away.
As for those mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10 we see a purging of believers based on their works whether they were good or bad. This is not a salvation issue; but a reward one. Loss of rewards will no doubt be painful and the effects particularly pronounced during the Millennium when we rule as kings and priests on the earth ( Rev. 1; etal). This fire is for our final purification not hellfire which is eternal and doesn't bring any purification.
Let us be open to pruning and purification now ( John 15:2). This comes with sufferings and trials which all true believers are promised according to numerous scriptures.
The Bible describes a sequence of events related to the rapture and judgment, and there are different interpretations among Christians regarding these events. Here are some key points based on Scripture:
1. **The Rapture**: The rapture refers to the event when believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is described in ** 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
2. **Judgment**: After the rapture, believers will face the **Bema Seat Judgment** (or Judgment Seat of Christ), where they will be evaluated for their works and faithfulness, not for salvation. This is described in ** 2 Corinthians 5:10**: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
3. **Who are Saved**: Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. ** John 3:16** states, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are considered saved and will be with Him.
4. **Final Judgment**: There is also a final judgment for those who are not saved, often referred to as the Great White Throne Judgment, described in ** Revelation 20:11-15**. This judgment is for those who have not accepted Christ and will result in separation from God.
In summary, after the rapture, believers will be with the Lord and will face the Bema Seat Judgment based on their works, while salvation is granted to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. If you have more questions or would like to explore this topic further, feel free to ask!
Much of the confusion arises from approaching the Bible piecemeal. Instead of understanding the covenant blesses a believer in his Son; instead some see it arising from Abraham. So helter-skelter matters arising from the text present judgment. There is only one salvation and judgement."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (He.9:27) This is with regards to the sons of Adam. Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."(1 Co.15:22) This living soul of Adam has death for his disobedient. In the day he ate the fruit according to the literal meaning of God's commandment Adam should have died. No his death was to come before the white Throne Judgment. "and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."(Re.20:12)
"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Col.3:3-4) Here ye are dead because you have entered into the fellowship of God with Man, the covenant under seven days and are blessed.(Ge.1:28) You have come under the Law of the Spirit so the flesh is dead, and the law of sin has no hold over you. There is therefore no condemnation over you.(Ro.8:1) You live in heavenly places already, your soul and inner man in His safekeeping. In the rapture when Christ appears in mid-air then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Millennial reign is with in heavenly places. Christ is not coming for the honour of lording over the earth purged by fire, contaminated by nuclear fall out. It is for the mingled people, the heathen, and they are consigned to the outer dakness. Ezekiel at the end of the books telling where to look for, "The Lord is there." (Ez.48:35)
In addition to the above consider this verse,"whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."(2 Co.5:6). This is about believers who died to sin so they walk by faith and not by sight. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Col.3:3-4) Here ye are dead because your faith arises from believing that you are blessed according to the covenant under seven days.(Ge.1:28)
Much of the confusion arises from approaching the Bible piecemeal. Instead of understanding the covenant blesses a believer in his Son some see it arising from Abraham. There is only one salvation and judgement."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (He.9:27) Christ as promised has gone to prepare a place for us. This is what ark of his testament signifies and it is heaven. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven," (Re.11:19) So St Paul groans "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:/If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."(2 Co.5:2-3)
. In the rapture when Christ appears in mid-air then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Millennial reign is with in heavenly places. Christ is not coming for the honour of lording over the earth purged by fire, contaminated by nuclear fall out. It is for the mingled people, the heathen, and they are consigned to the outer darkness. Ezekiel at the end of the books telling where to look for. The Lord is up there and not in the outer darkness which is for the mixed people, Jews and Christians alike.
" For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." For good and the bad alike but not at the same time. For its significance see v.9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." Our faith, ministry and works are for "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." Matt.25:21)
Q: The city of God is foursquare, so is the altar of incense? In the volume of each believer there must be certain golden ratio so a believer grows from glory to glory, Does it not?
A: Certainly. The altar has a certain position so has the city of God in the new heaven and new earth. What God specified for the tabernacle is after the pattern shown to Moses. (Ex.30:2) Let us consider these. An altar is "A cubit shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof; foursquare shall it be: and two cubits shall be the height thereof." Father and Son as Jesus said, "My Father and I are one. "Two cubits shall be the height thereof" denote the two commandments Jesus taught us. (Matt.22:40). The golden ratio therefore sets these relationship in relation to the world without. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." So how shall we consider the altar, as dress to change for occasions or as a living sacrifice? Paul exhorts,"that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."(Ro.12:1-2)
"And thou shalt put it before the vail" The altar is set before the vail representing the face, "and the firmament sheweth his handywork" and the glory of heaven interfaces with earth so it iis a face; it is in this sense Paul writes here, "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." In short our heart is a kind of glass which adds to our understanding, "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2 Pe.1:4-8)
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."(2 Co.3:18) This liberty has freed us from law of sin.
The same group that tell you that a believer will be judged again for their salvation is often the same group that says you can lose your salvation.
They often ignore scripture such as John 10:28-29 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. and Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
This comes from a lack of understanding the nature of salvation/Justification.
However there are many deceived amongst us in any congregation and will to be judged "by" their works and face condemnation "BECAUSE" they never truly trusted Christ and sought to add their own justification to the gift of Christ.
Read the whole sentence, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Eternal life comes with condition. The sheep has to abide in the hand of Christ.
It is sandwiched between two verses,"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" and the other,"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."(v.29)
Now what have we here?
'My sheep hear my voice," and follow him all the way. My father gave them (the sheep)and it is what the everlasting covenant states. Sheep are entrusted to the Son by Father. St Paul says,"God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:/According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." (Ep.1:3-4) Abraham and you included are thus given over to his Son. Prayer of Jesus ( John 17) also makes it clear. Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him. The other is the voice of robbers and hirelings. They also speak eternal life and line their pockets.
I disagree with everything you said.
You asked that I read the whole sentence. I posted the whole sentence.
However you added to the sentence when you stated;
(The sheep has to abide in the hand of Christ.)
Bennymkje the sheep is not holding on to Christ.
Christ is holding on to them. That's what a shepherd does!
If a sheep gets lost he go get them! Christ sheep never get lost!
If they get out of line he has a staff!
I suppose you put the same conditions on Jude 1:24, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Bennymkje sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.
God bless.
As I mentioned in the first ever discussion, you are free to disagree and unless grace is given from above many things to discern the right from wrong can cause divisions. In essentials unity, and in non-essentials charity. You have to determine yourself which is which.
Sheep is likely to go astray and the good shepherd at times shall hold the lamb close and it is for the lamb's safety. Jesus is the true vine and branches are running like sheep saying once saved is saved. The branches abide in the vine drawing nutrients and the goodness of the tree. Third analogy I can cite: God commanded Moses to make the altar of incense. "And two golden rings shalt thou make to it under the crown of it, by the two corners thereof, upon the two sides of it shalt thou make it; and they shall be for places for the staves to bear it withal."(Ex.30:4) The body of a believer is a living sacrifice. You are not to remove the rings ever. You are not free to burn strange mixture of incense therein. Instead the incense has to be of precise mix so you shall be a sweet smelling savour to God. Think it over.
I stand in position with you on eternal security, or the permanency of salvation. Amen! I believe that salvation is something that cannot be taken away or lost. You mentioned that you disagreed with everything that he (Bennymkje) said.
Even though I am not in agreement on everything said, there was something said that I find some truth in. The statement that "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him" does have some truth to it.
Here's why I say so:
When I look at this statement with the key word being "without," it tells me that a person cannot be saved forever (eternally saved) unless they commit their life completely to Christ and are born of God's Spirit. In other words, for you and I and all those who believe in eternal security, once saved is indeed forever saved once we have completely surrendered our lives to Jesus Christ and been born of His Spirit.
Unless that was not the intent of that particular statement, I have to agree that if one completely commits their life to Christ (Surrenders their life to Him), and is born of His Spirit, that person is saved forever. Eternally saved! At least that's how I read that statement.
But if the message is that a born-again believer can lose their salvation, then I stand with you in disagreement. I know this is a sensitive topic and I suspect I might take some heat for this, but I know where I stand in my relationship with Christ. We have a salvation that can never be taken away from us and a Savior who has promised to keep us by His power until the day that He comes to redeem us! If our salvation is dependent upon us, we're in trouble.
May the Lord bless you as you continue in fellowship with Him and His Word!
I certainly would agree if Bennymkje would have said a person is not saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him.
However, this is what he said,
"Once saved is not (forever) saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him"
It seems he is saying if you committed to him 50% to being born again then you can be saved but then lose it.
I believe if you don't turn it ALL over to Jesus (100%) then you were never saved.
Hopefully that's not what he meant.
God bless.
I agree. Salvation requires complete surrender to Christ, making Him the Lord of your life. There is no partial salvation. A person is either fully saved or not saved at all. When Christ saves us, He gives us eternal life, or shall I say He gives us Himself and He is eternal! So, if we have Christ the eternal one in us, and He has promised to never leave nor forsake us, we have eternal life, never to be lost!
Hope you have a Christ filled day!
Thanks again Brother Jesse.
come lord jesus
My mistake This sentence "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be born by him". It should read as "Once saved is not forever saved without committing your life 100% to be borne by him." I meant in the sense 'abiding' or carried about as the lamb by the good shepherd. Jesus of God has become sanctification. So total sanctification as far as our salvation concerned is our worship. It is due to him. Final salvation is not you or I can say but it rests with Jesus Christ. God looks not as man sees so shall we leave him that privilege, shall we?
Committing our life 100% to be born "by him" implies you have 0% hope in any other way.
Thanks always and God bless.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Ephesians 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
It is good to hear from you. I prayed last night that you (and others who haven't posted here for a while) would post soon!
As S Spencer has said this is not about salvation, through Jesus we have the gift of eternal life. Please do not be confused, the truth is in the Scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Many are looking to be taken to heaven before the great tribulation of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet.
We all will be judged Acts 17:31 Hebrews 9:27 2 Corinthians 5:10
There will be two resurrections; the first is when Jesus returns, after Satan, the beast, and the false prophet have their 3.5 years of tribulation, Revelation 13:1-5 Matthew 24:29-31 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.
When Jesus returns with His angels, the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Satan is locked in the bottomless pit and Jesus will set up the kingdom, and those chosen, and faithful who are first resurrected will rule with Jesus, Revelation 16, 17, 18, 19. After the battle, in Revelation 20:5 we see Thrones and judgment is given to them who were in the first resurrection and given the honor to reign with Jesus during the 1000 years.
We see in Revelation 20:5-6 the rest of the dead lived not until after the 1000 years and the blessing on those who will be priests of God who will reign with Jesus in the millennium on earth, not heaven. There will be different rewards for the saved who will live in eternity with God and Jesus.
In Daniel 12:2-3 we see some will shine greater than others and also, we see those in this resurrection, there will be those who will awake to everlasting life, and some who will awake to everlasting contempt. We also see in John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46 what we see in the white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15 the rest of the dead, some will go into eternal life and some who are not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
There is much more to study, you should study for your conscience, we must not be deceived Matthew 24:4.
God bless,
RLW
Consider these verses.
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Pelya have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior?
If so, do you think the blood of the God provided Lamb was adequate? Yes it was!
Christ took your place on the cross and God didn't spare him.
Christ was Judged in your place.
For you to be judged again, Christ died in vain!
John 5:24 reads "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Believers will be judged for their works AFTER salvation NOT "for salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.
Pelya Eternal life is something you have NOW, it's not something you get later!
The same Spirit that saves you, it also seals you! Ephesians 4:30.
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24.
God bless you.
In these final days people are saying all kinds of crazy untrue things and we are to be on our guard for the enemy's deceptive tricks. He uses people to deceive us and the word says there are many antiChrists who deny Christ but try to trick us through smooth and appealing talk.
When you say you "don't buy into this white throne narrative people are claiming," I gather that you are referring to the narrative I shared, so I felt a need to respond.
First, I want to say that I agree with you when you say that God opposes the proud, pride is before the fall, and that we must be on guard in these final days to the enemy's deceptive tricks. But please know that I am not the enemy!
Now, concerning 2 Corinthians 5:10, in context, when Paul says "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;" he is referring to all believers in Christ Jesus. If we take each verse, beginning with Verse 1, it seems pretty clear that Paul is speaking to the believers in Corinth.
If we take every single verse in context from Verse 1 leading up to Verse 10 and examine the words "we" and "us" in each of these verses, how would these verses be applicable to a person who flat out rejects Christ?
When Paul says we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, he is speaking about all believers. That's the "all" Paul is referring to. This judgment seat is called the Bema Seat judgment, and it is for believers only.
There is a difference and a gap between the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ that Paul spoke about in 2 Corinthians 5:10, and the vision of the Great White Throne judgment that was given to John in Revelation 20:11-15.
We do have a different view, but I can assure you that I'm in no way "attempting to trick anyone into avoiding moral responsibility," I don't assume that I'm in "some special VIP club," and I do not "expect VIP treatment" when I stand before God. When I stand before God, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. My only hope of entering in is that He is going to see Christ in me.
We all have things to contribute to this forum. There will be disagreements from time to time, but when disagreement comes, neither side should be considered an enemy trying to deceive others.
Blessings!
Both believers and non-believers will be judged. There is a judgment for believers, and there is a judgement for non-believers. Believers are judged at the Bema Seat judgement of Christ. Non-believers will be judged separately at the Great White Throne judgment.
So, the answer to your question is no, we (born again believers) will not be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. That is reserved for the wicked dead only. Revelation Chapter 20 speaks about the Great White Throne judgment. It seems pretty clear that all those at this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.
Please think about this: You mentioned the rapture and as you probably are aware, this is for believers only. In 1 Thessalonians Chater 4, it tells us that the dead (In Christ) will rise from the grave. It doesn't say anything about the wicked dead rising in the rapture.
So where are the wicked dead after the rapture? While we are with Christ, they are still in Hades awaiting their final judgment which in Revelation 20:13, it says that the sea gave up the dead (wicked dead) which were in it; and death and hell (this is actually Hades, not Hell), delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Please know that these are the wicked dead, not believers. Revelation 20:14 gives us their fate. It says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Again, this is Hades. Right now, no believers are in Hades. They were released with the Lord's message to them.
But the non-believers were left there. And that's where the non-believers go today, until the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ, which after that they will be judged (at the Great White Throne) and cast into the lake of fire. So, this judgment (Great White Throne) cannot be for believers.
Hope this helps. God Bless!!!
There are many reasons that I disagree with that eschatological viewpoint but I won't elaborate here except to say that a literal interpretation of passages in Isaiah and Revelation in particular should make it clear enough that a literal 1000 year rule and reign of Christ will occur on the earth; as many allude to being like the seventh day of creation in the seventh millenium of earth which according to the Jewish calendar is near 6000 years at present (and supposedly off by about 200 years).
Anyway; the principal difference is that those whose works are judged are cast into the lake of fire which would indicate the unsaved status of those in that judgment from all the lost dead from all ages of earth. I have pointed out that the exception to those whose names weren't in the Book of Life would be the physical survivors for the entire Millennium period; who no doubt would live as Methuselah and Noah did over 900 years. Those who would die at 100 are considered accursed ( Isaiah 65:20).
This group would likely enter heaven as the old heaven and earth pass away.
As for those mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10 we see a purging of believers based on their works whether they were good or bad. This is not a salvation issue; but a reward one. Loss of rewards will no doubt be painful and the effects particularly pronounced during the Millennium when we rule as kings and priests on the earth ( Rev. 1; etal). This fire is for our final purification not hellfire which is eternal and doesn't bring any purification.
Let us be open to pruning and purification now ( John 15:2). This comes with sufferings and trials which all true believers are promised according to numerous scriptures.
Agape; blessings.
RHP
1. **The Rapture**: The rapture refers to the event when believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is described in ** 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
2. **Judgment**: After the rapture, believers will face the **Bema Seat Judgment** (or Judgment Seat of Christ), where they will be evaluated for their works and faithfulness, not for salvation. This is described in ** 2 Corinthians 5:10**: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
3. **Who are Saved**: Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. ** John 3:16** states, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are considered saved and will be with Him.
4. **Final Judgment**: There is also a final judgment for those who are not saved, often referred to as the Great White Throne Judgment, described in ** Revelation 20:11-15**. This judgment is for those who have not accepted Christ and will result in separation from God.
In summary, after the rapture, believers will be with the Lord and will face the Bema Seat Judgment based on their works, while salvation is granted to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. If you have more questions or would like to explore this topic further, feel free to ask!
"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Col.3:3-4) Here ye are dead because you have entered into the fellowship of God with Man, the covenant under seven days and are blessed.(Ge.1:28) You have come under the Law of the Spirit so the flesh is dead, and the law of sin has no hold over you. There is therefore no condemnation over you.(Ro.8:1) You live in heavenly places already, your soul and inner man in His safekeeping. In the rapture when Christ appears in mid-air then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Millennial reign is with in heavenly places. Christ is not coming for the honour of lording over the earth purged by fire, contaminated by nuclear fall out. It is for the mingled people, the heathen, and they are consigned to the outer dakness. Ezekiel at the end of the books telling where to look for, "The Lord is there." (Ez.48:35)
Much of the confusion arises from approaching the Bible piecemeal. Instead of understanding the covenant blesses a believer in his Son some see it arising from Abraham. There is only one salvation and judgement."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (He.9:27) Christ as promised has gone to prepare a place for us. This is what ark of his testament signifies and it is heaven. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven," (Re.11:19) So St Paul groans "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:/If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."(2 Co.5:2-3)
. In the rapture when Christ appears in mid-air then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Millennial reign is with in heavenly places. Christ is not coming for the honour of lording over the earth purged by fire, contaminated by nuclear fall out. It is for the mingled people, the heathen, and they are consigned to the outer darkness. Ezekiel at the end of the books telling where to look for. The Lord is up there and not in the outer darkness which is for the mixed people, Jews and Christians alike.
" For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." For good and the bad alike but not at the same time. For its significance see v.9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." Our faith, ministry and works are for "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." Matt.25:21)
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