Just some thoughts and questions we may study for understanding.
Jesus is speaking to, His disciples, publicans, and others but mainly to the Pharisees and scribes we see in Luke 16:14 that the Pharisees derided Him, they were ridiculing Him for what He said in Luke 16:1-18. In the context of Luke 16, the lesson was for the Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery, and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had.
Is the same context continuing in Luke 16:19-31? Is this a literal story that happened to these two actual people? Is this a parable? The general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus many times in the Gospels.
The rich man and Lazarus had bodies and were both fully aware of their surroundings. Does Scripture support this? What lesson can we learn from Jesus's story here? Do we miss what is in Luke 16:31? Is this about Lazarus or is Jesus telling them they still will not be persuaded after He is resurrected?
Do we receive our rewards before or after we are judged? When are we judged, is it as soon as we die or after Jesus returns and we are resurrected? What is this great chasm, is it real and people can talk back and forth, or is it because of the hardness and unbelief of their heart after death that the way of repentance and salvation is unpassable?
Some believe in purgatory, is this not a revision of celestial Hades from the writings of Plato? Is this what we see here in Luke 16 the dead go to heaven or hell? Does Scripture support that? Ecclesiastes 12:7 is this for all that has lived, saints and the lost, or just the saints? What is this spirit that goes back to God? Is it us, who we are, or is it the breath of life given to all living beings?
Hi Ronald. Thank you for those thoughts concerning this passage of Scripture. You asked whether the Luke 16:19-31 account was literal or simply a parable. I have tried to recall the many instances of Jesus' parables given us in the Gospels, & I find that in all of them, His parables are as you said, just "a simple story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson". So, even the Luke 16 account also fits that particular description: of a story with a lesson to be learned.
However, why I believe that this account does not entirely fit the description of a parable, is because Jesus is sharing very specifically of what takes place in the afterlife between certain people in a specified place. Apart from maybe Luke 10:30-37 (The Good Samaritan parable), where places are named (i.e. "from Jerusalem to Jericho"), I don't recall Jesus ever indicating where the events in His parables took place (e.g. concerning the lost coin, the sower in the field, ten virgins, the prodigal son, et al). And probably more importantly, in His parables, He never uses the names of people, as He did in Luke 16 (though the rich man's name was not given). Had he done so in any of His parables, His audience (specifically the religious leaders), could well have a good argument against Him as being a liar & a deceiver.
But here in Luke 16, Jesus takes the bold step to name the place (Hades), and the names of Lazarus & Abraham, something He correctly avoided in His other parables, which were, as you stated, just simple stories. Here, Jesus is giving sinners a glimpse into the afterlife (as pertaining to that point in time, pre-crucifixion/resurrection). I know nothing of Plato except what the Bible states & teaches, & to me, this place in Hades was certainly not a time & place of purification (purgatory), but of judgement, probably with those in-waiting for their judgement post-crucifixion. Onto Page 2.
As for Ecclesiastes 12:7, I understand this "spirit" to be the one given to man by God, and one which can never be annihilated. Each person is accountable to God & that person's spirit lives on, even while the body may be decaying in the ground. Man's spirit doesn't linger at the body or some other holding place, for in many instances, there is no body, but the spirit returns "unto God who gave it", for judgement.
Now, if this 'spirit' is only "the breath of life given to all living beings", then the question, is our true self simply a body without any possibility of a connection to God, but to just to age, to die & decay into the ground awaiting the resurrection? Even as the apostle stated in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit (the Holy Spirit) itself beareth witness with our spirit (our God-given spirit), that we are the children of God". If we don't have such a (human) spirit within us, how does the Holy Spirit indwell us, commune with us, assure us, teach us & admonish us? As even Ecclesiastes 3:20,21 reads, "All (man & beast) go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Both will die, but the spirit of the animal (not accountable to God) goes to the Earth while the spirit of man, who is made in the Image of God & accountable to God, returns back to Him. Blessings.
Thank you, brother, I know many have your understanding of this, and defining the difference between the soul and the spirit is difficult, in Scripture they seem to be interchangeable, at least it is for me. Salvation is not dependent on this, we know we are sealed and secure in Jesus regardless of what happens when we die.
In Genesis 2:7 Adam became a living being/soul the Hebrew word nephesh, in the New Testament it is the word psyche. My understanding this is who we are, our senses, desires, affections, appetites, intellect, and memories. The soul, who we are can be killed, Matthew 10:28. My understanding when we die is the soul/who we are, is asleep with our body in the grave, and is resurrected either to eternity with Jesus or is killed in the lake of fire.
Man cannot kill our soul all souls belong to God Ezekiel 18:4. God has offered a way of salvation for souls that are doomed to die, Hebrews 9:27. And we are told we can walk in the world or walk in the Spirit and Jesus told us the consequences, Matthew 16:26.
Spirit both the Hebrew word ruach and the Greek word pneuma translated as spirit have the concept of breath or wind at their roots. This part of us can be alive or dead Ephesians 2:4-5. The most enter part of us that connects or refuses to connect to God, like a radio receiver and it gives life to the body, Psalm 104:29James 2:26.
This is what returns to God when we die, there is no more communication our fate is set after we die our soul is asleep in death until we are resurrected, Daniel 12:2. I know you said you do not know Plato, Greek philosophy, many in those days were influenced, the spirit or soul is immortal and the descriptions of an underworld. I believe Jesus took parts of these fables and used them as subject matter in this parable.
My understanding the spirit does not have a body it gives life to the body, and we are resurrected and given an eternal spirit.
Just some thoughts and questions we may study for understanding.
Jesus is speaking to, His disciples, publicans, and others but mainly to the Pharisees and scribes we see in Luke 16:14 that the Pharisees derided Him, they were ridiculing Him for what He said in Luke 16:1-18. In the context of Luke 16, the lesson was for the Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery, and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had.
Is the same context continuing in Luke 16:19-31? Is this a literal story that happened to these two actual people? Is this a parable? The general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus many times in the Gospels.
The rich man and Lazarus had bodies and were both fully aware of their surroundings. Does Scripture support this? What lesson can we learn from Jesus's story here? Do we miss what is in Luke 16:31? Is this about Lazarus or is Jesus telling them they still will not be persuaded after He is resurrected?
Do we receive our rewards before or after we are judged? When are we judged, is it as soon as we die or after Jesus returns and we are resurrected? What is this great chasm, is it real and people can talk back and forth, or is it because of the hardness and unbelief of their heart after death that the way of repentance and salvation is unpassable?
Some believe in purgatory, is this not a revision of celestial Hades from the writings of Plato? Is this what we see here in Luke 16 the dead go to heaven or hell? Does Scripture support that? Ecclesiastes 12:7 is this for all that has lived, saints and the lost, or just the saints? What is this spirit that goes back to God? Is it us, who we are, or is it the breath of life given to all living beings?
God bless,
RLW
Hi Ronald. Thank you for those thoughts concerning this passage of Scripture. You asked whether the Luke 16:19-31 account was literal or simply a parable. I have tried to recall the many instances of Jesus' parables given us in the Gospels, & I find that in all of them, His parables are as you said, just "a simple story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson". So, even the Luke 16 account also fits that particular description: of a story with a lesson to be learned.
However, why I believe that this account does not entirely fit the description of a parable, is because Jesus is sharing very specifically of what takes place in the afterlife between certain people in a specified place. Apart from maybe Luke 10:30-37 (The Good Samaritan parable), where places are named (i.e. "from Jerusalem to Jericho"), I don't recall Jesus ever indicating where the events in His parables took place (e.g. concerning the lost coin, the sower in the field, ten virgins, the prodigal son, et al). And probably more importantly, in His parables, He never uses the names of people, as He did in Luke 16 (though the rich man's name was not given). Had he done so in any of His parables, His audience (specifically the religious leaders), could well have a good argument against Him as being a liar & a deceiver.
But here in Luke 16, Jesus takes the bold step to name the place (Hades), and the names of Lazarus & Abraham, something He correctly avoided in His other parables, which were, as you stated, just simple stories. Here, Jesus is giving sinners a glimpse into the afterlife (as pertaining to that point in time, pre-crucifixion/resurrection). I know nothing of Plato except what the Bible states & teaches, & to me, this place in Hades was certainly not a time & place of purification (purgatory), but of judgement, probably with those in-waiting for their judgement post-crucifixion. Onto Page 2.
As for Ecclesiastes 12:7, I understand this "spirit" to be the one given to man by God, and one which can never be annihilated. Each person is accountable to God & that person's spirit lives on, even while the body may be decaying in the ground. Man's spirit doesn't linger at the body or some other holding place, for in many instances, there is no body, but the spirit returns "unto God who gave it", for judgement.
Now, if this 'spirit' is only "the breath of life given to all living beings", then the question, is our true self simply a body without any possibility of a connection to God, but to just to age, to die & decay into the ground awaiting the resurrection? Even as the apostle stated in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit (the Holy Spirit) itself beareth witness with our spirit (our God-given spirit), that we are the children of God". If we don't have such a (human) spirit within us, how does the Holy Spirit indwell us, commune with us, assure us, teach us & admonish us? As even Ecclesiastes 3:20,21 reads, "All (man & beast) go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Both will die, but the spirit of the animal (not accountable to God) goes to the Earth while the spirit of man, who is made in the Image of God & accountable to God, returns back to Him. Blessings.
Thank you, brother, I know many have your understanding of this, and defining the difference between the soul and the spirit is difficult, in Scripture they seem to be interchangeable, at least it is for me. Salvation is not dependent on this, we know we are sealed and secure in Jesus regardless of what happens when we die.
In Genesis 2:7 Adam became a living being/soul the Hebrew word nephesh, in the New Testament it is the word psyche. My understanding this is who we are, our senses, desires, affections, appetites, intellect, and memories. The soul, who we are can be killed, Matthew 10:28. My understanding when we die is the soul/who we are, is asleep with our body in the grave, and is resurrected either to eternity with Jesus or is killed in the lake of fire.
Man cannot kill our soul all souls belong to God Ezekiel 18:4. God has offered a way of salvation for souls that are doomed to die, Hebrews 9:27. And we are told we can walk in the world or walk in the Spirit and Jesus told us the consequences, Matthew 16:26.
Spirit both the Hebrew word ruach and the Greek word pneuma translated as spirit have the concept of breath or wind at their roots. This part of us can be alive or dead Ephesians 2:4-5. The most enter part of us that connects or refuses to connect to God, like a radio receiver and it gives life to the body, Psalm 104:29 James 2:26.
This is what returns to God when we die, there is no more communication our fate is set after we die our soul is asleep in death until we are resurrected, Daniel 12:2. I know you said you do not know Plato, Greek philosophy, many in those days were influenced, the spirit or soul is immortal and the descriptions of an underworld. I believe Jesus took parts of these fables and used them as subject matter in this parable.
My understanding the spirit does not have a body it gives life to the body, and we are resurrected and given an eternal spirit.
Thanks again, God bless,
RLW
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