Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • GiGi - 4 months ago
    Next, I would like to post on God is VICTOR

    This aspect of God is congruent with His sovereignty, authority, and infinite power. He is the Victor in all circumstances, even when it seems to us that He is not. When I speak of God, I am speaking of God in the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This truth will come to play as I show how God is always the Victor.

    For instance, starting at the beginning. when Satan rebelled, it was no surprise to God. He ordained that this would occur even though Satan chose on his own to rebel. God did not lose anything in this turn of Satan from preferring God above all else to preferring himself. In reality, God won in this situation, not only that He judged Satan and stripped him of his place as the covering cherub and the prominent position God originally chose for him, but in that allowing Satan to fall along with the other angels that did so, too, God wins because this put into time and history the fulfillment of God's eternal plan that was decided and ordained to occur without fail before creation of anything. So, in Satan's fall, God is truly the Victor. Satan suffered great loss in his sin, but God lost nothing.

    When God created Adam and Eve, He chose to make them able to sin, just like Satan and the angels that sinned with him. Like Satan and the angels, Adam was created in a realm where there was no sin whatsoever and no corruption of anything that God had made in the physical realm, as it was in the spiritual realm when God created the angels. When Adam and Eve sinned, God did not lose. Adam and Eve lost, and critically so. Satan lost here, too, because He brought upon himself a more profound curse than when he first sinned. In the Garden before sin entered, God told the first humans He created that they would die if they disobeyed His command concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did not know about evil or about evil beings. cont. to part 2
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 months ago
    GiGi, 3/3

    Now lets go to Jesus' temptations in the wilderness. Was the first thing that satan asked Him to do, turn those stones into bread, a sin? If Jesus did actually that, would He had sinned? Was it something sinful? The answer is no, it wasn't a sin. So why did satan asked Him that? My thoughts (I don't say this is right, just my thoughts) is that it was for reconnaissance. He tried to figure out who was in front of him and what was Jesus capable for, he was trying to learn things about Him. Of course satan knew about Jesus' life, I believe he observed Him since His birth and knew all those prophesies in the Old Testament. but he had no clue what was God's mysterious plan for our salvation and I believe in the begining he was not sure who actually Jesus was, if He was God Himself, just that He was a son of God who was born supernaturally and who never sins. Maybe he understood everyting later on, apart from Jesus's crucifixtion being the way people are saved. You are right, if he knew he would had never led Jesus on the cross. For a time he thought he had won until he realized that he had actually lost. Who can take on God and win? And since satan can not hurt God he fights Him by trying to lead his creatures into hell with him. Like somebody who can not hurt a father but hurts his kids instead. So in that first temptation satan was also trying to get Jesus into a discussion with him to find out more about Him, to find maybe some volnurable sides of Him. And we know about the other two temptations, satan is not a fool, he soon realized that infront of him there was somebody whom he can not handle like the rest of the world. Jesus was something special. But he still fought against Him. I don't know why God never gave the fallen angels a way to be saved like humans. Maybe He knows that they will never ever repent. Maybe because they were in a position so close to Him, they were seeing His face and were talking to Him, that gives no room for excuses.

    GBU
  • Bennymkje - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Giannis,

    Satan tempted Jesus at the end of 40 days by a question that is at the root of the divine Holiness. His creation was not simply a burst of His Power and Wisdom but from deliberate exercise of the Word, which is also law. He named the earth. "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good." The name for stone cannot be simply altered without injuring the holiness if it cam be bread at some of the times. The name is exact as His commandment is exact. Otherwise what point is to have the law of nature? Nature obeys the Law of God. Indirectly Satan was undermining the sovereignty of God. If man is able to eradicate hunger by turning stones where ever they may be found, why obey Law or God? Dosteovsky brings this out this problem in the Grand Inquisitor episode of the Brothers Karamazov. The name of Jesus became more excellent than every name because he obeyed the Law of his Father. The Word was God. Anything that brings down the holiness of God is a sin. So Jesus would not accept Satan's temptation.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Hello Benny

    As I was thinking about what you wrote in your post, I remembered that Jesus actually did make a similar miracle. In the marriage in Cana of Galilee He turned water into wine. That was immediately after His baptism by John the Baptist. And also it was before Him going to the wilderness. So I was thinking that satan had actually seen Jesus turning miraculously a thing to another (so it seems there is no problem doing that). So satan knew Jesus could do that. So why did he ask Him to do something similar again? My thought is that he was trying to get into a discussion with Jesus, the same way he went into a discussion with Eve, "Has God told you not to eat from every tree in the garden?". And depending on Jesus' answer he would had set his trap. Unlike Eve, Jesus didn't go jnto a discussion with him but answered using a scripture. Similarly He used scriptures in the next 2 temptations. This sets an example for us. Do not ever get into a discussion with devil. He comes with thoughts. Answer him by a scripture.

    Well all that reminded me of something that had occurred to me long ago just after I believed. One day as I was walking in the streets, some thoughts were popping in my mind. Thoughts about how God didn't answer some prayers of mine and didn't help me in some situations, so He doesn't love me...this sort of things. And I kept thinking about these for some time and some not so nice feelings for God came into my heart. Sometime God spoke in my heart and said , "why do you get into a discussion with satan? Don't you know that you can not outplay him?" And I suddenly realised that all those thoughts were not mine but were placed in my mind by devil. He wanted me to have bad feelings for God and somehow he managed it a bit. This is a lesson that I sometimes forget to be honest. When this sort of thoughts come in our minds we must always think and answer with the proper scripture. Nothing else,
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Good to hear from you Giannis.

    Thanks for your reply.

    I would like to comment on just one thing.

    In the wilderness, turning stones into bread may have a been a sin if the Father had told Jesus to fast for 40 days. Breaking that fast by doing this miracle would be a sin of disobedience to the Father.

    But I agree that eating is not a sin. And I agree that Satan was testing Jesus out to see who He is, to learn more about Him, to see what His vulnerabilities may be, and to make a small dent in Jesus' character to use against Him as the accuser.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 3 months ago
    GIGI

    Based in the Word of GOD,our Lord JESUS had already fasted 40 days.Mat.4:2:When JESUS had fasted forty days and forty nights,He was AFTERWARD an hungred.

    Thus,we can see that the comment posted doesn't fit or applys not in any case you have conjectured in the first phrase of your post.

    You said"you agree that eating is not a sin".Depend:Whom bread do you eat from?Scriptures explain:Prov.20:17Bread of deceit(BREAD OF THE LIE)is sweet to a man;but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.By the way, Satan is the father of lie-Jo.8:44.

    In the other hand,JESUS said:Jo.6:32-34:

    32-...Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

    33For the bread of GOD is He which comes down from heaven,and gives life unto the world.

    34Then said they unto JESUS,Lord,evermore give us this bread.

    You said"Satan was testing JESUS out to see who He is,to learn more about Him,to see what His vulnerabilities may be".What does the Word of GOD say,GIGI? Ezekiel 28:3 reveals that Satan is wiser than Daniel;there is no secret that can hide from him.

    Satan kews JESUS so well, and also HE knew all the people of Israel( John 8:44), Satan knew the people of Israel had reject JESUS, by the way, all the people of Israel had(and still have)a STONY HEART, having the own Satan as father, said JESUS- John 8:44.

    That said, Satan challenged JESUS to transform the people of Israel in bread, saying to JESUS:If thou be the Son of GOD, COMMAND that these stones be made bread.

    Paul Apostle said:1Co.10:16-17

    16The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

    17For we being many ARE ONE BREAD,and one body:for we are all partakers of that one bread(body of Christ JESUS,our Lord)

    Re.2:24-25

    24But unto you I say,and unto the rest in Thyatira,as many as have not this doctrine,and which have not known the depths of Satan,as they speak;I will put upon you none other burden.

    25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Dear Oseas,

    You do your conjecture in your interpretations and perhaps I do so to in some of what I say. I will look into this further, because I remember reading somewhere that the devil had been tempting Jesus all along, but at the end of the forty days, Satan tested Jesus in the three ways mentioned.

    As to what Satan knew about Jesus, Scripture never says that he knew all about Jesus. God is able to hide knowledge from Satan and really, anyone He chooses to keep things hidden that others may know or have received revelation of. Satan does not know what is in people's minds. Scripture does not say that He does as far as I know. Satan knows Scripture to some extent, but most likely not accurately, especially when it comes to prophecy concerning the coming of the Messiah, who the Messiah is when He arrives, and also what God's plan is. God is sovereign, present everywhere, able to know every thought, intention, words, and actions of every person. Satan does not have these traits because he does not have a divine nature. Only God is like this.

    Anyway, Oseas, we differ on many things from my experience with you. I think that you spiritualize Scripture to fit your mindset most of the time. I don't think that this is how God wants us to learn Scripture. I do think some of Scripture is allegorical, but not every verse or story. I do appreciate your input on my post, however. Thanks for responding. I just don't want to get engaged in a big discussion with you at this time.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 3 months ago
    GIGI

    My comment on your post to the Giannis starts saying:Based in the Word of GOD(not mine), the Spirit of Truth speaks nothing from him himself- John 16:13,right? In my analyse,I saw Giannis was not receiving a true interpretation according the Spirit of Truth in Matthew 4:2 I quoted.

    You said:"Scripture never says that Satan knew all about Jesus",it's you're saying.Scripture says he is full of wisdom,an anointed Cherub,GOD have set him so,he was upon the holy mountain of GOD walking in the midst of the STONES of fire,perfect from the day he was created,till iniquity was found in him-Ez.28.

    THERE IS NO SECRET THAT THEY CAN HIDE FROM HIM-Ez.28:3,so he is the main Enemy of JESUS and believers in JESUS.

    You said"Satan does not know what is in people's minds",but is this true?Satan did put in the mind of Eve-Gen.3:5-6-GOD doth know that eating fruit good and evil the eyes shall be opened,and shall be as gods(as angels)knowing good and evil. 6 When Eve saw that the tree(THE MESSAGE)was good for food,and it was pleasant to the eyes,and a tree(A MESSAGE)to be desired to make one wise,she took of the fruit(believed)and gave(commented)also unto her husband (both talked about things Satan had said,both believed in him);and Adam did eat(believed in the Devil),both believed in the things Satan did put in their mind.

    How can you fight against Satan and his messengers- Revelation 12:7-,if you know not well Satan,neither his messengers?This is very danger,for we wrestle not against flesh and blood,but against principalities,and Powers,and the rulers of the darkness of this world,against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Finally you"think that I spiritualize Scripture to fit my mind",who did put this in your mind?now,the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,GOD is Spirit- John 4:24 combined with John 6:63-64, mainly Matthew 10:20, understand?take a look.

    The letter kills,the Spirit gives life,you should post to Giannis by the Spirit, not by the letter, the letter kills the souls.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Sorry Oseas, something went wrong with the paragraphing function.

    Satan was testing Jesus to learn mor about Him since Jesus was just declared to be the beloved Son of God at His baptism.

    I believe the Scripture text tells us that Jesus was tempted over the full forty days, but after the full forty days and nights were over, Satan tempted Him in the three instances recorded as final tests. Satan failed to draw Jesus to sin, but did learn more about Jesus to aid in the plan he would be devising and seeking to accomplish during the remainder of Jesus' earthly life.

    I wish you well, Oseas. We differ on many things. I stand by what I wrote in my post to you. I do think that you twist Scripture yet you claim to abide by Scripture. Like all of us, when we are criticized by another believer, we would examine ourselves to we if we truly are of the faith that Scripture teaches. If upon examination we find that we are, then good. If we are erring, then we must humbly seek the Lord to be corrected and brought into alignment with the true teaching of the Word.

    I pray that we will all grow up into the full measure of faith that we have been blessed with by the Holy Spirit.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 3 months ago
    GIGI

    You say "Satan was testing Jesus to learn more about Him", Oh no, it is not true, I don't eat what you are saying, Satan was not interested in learning anything from JESUS, Satan was luring / attracting JESUS into his satanic trap, just as he had done with Eve and Adam in the beginning, and still does until the current time, as we can see.

    No, the Scripture text tells us not what you believe as being the Devil's intention in the tempting of JESUS. My Lord JESUS fought against the Devil when He was tempted by him, by the Devil, and JESUS, as being the Word(GOD) made flesh, knew so well the devilish intention of the Enemy, then when Satan said to JESUS to transform stones in bread, He answered to Satan as the Word of GOD says in Deuteronomy 8:3. JESUS said: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of GOD.

    Afterwards, Satan tempted my Lord JESUS by the Word of GOD, as he does until the current time, saying:"If thou be the Son of GOD, cast thyself down":Satan tried to induce JESUS to something like suicide, saying to JESUS the Word of GOD assured He shall give His angels charge concerning Him: and in their hands they shall bear Him up, lest at any time He dash His foot against a stone. WHAT SATAN SAID TO JESUS WAS TRUE, but my Lord JESUS didn't fall in the TRAP of Satan when he used the Word of GOD to tempt the Lord,so JESUS by the Word of GOD said to Satan:It also is written,Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy GOD. Deuteronomy 6:16

    Again, the Devil takes JESUS up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them (AND TODAY, HOW SATAN SHOWS HIS GIGANTIC AND SUPER MODERN WORLD?)

    9 And Satan said unto JESUS, All these things will I give thee,if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

    10 Then saith Jesus unto Satan, Get thee hence, Satan:for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy GOD, and Him only shalt thou serve. Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20.



    Hebrews 4:12-13
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Dear Oseas,

    Again, I will return to what I said to you in my last post to you. I do not wish to engage in a prolonged discussion with you. But I have a few things to say to you concerning this post of yours.

    I agree that Satan knows a lot that we do not know, but the Scriptures also say that things revealed concerning things that come from the Spirit of God are only discerned by those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Satan did not have the Spirit, so He would not have known or understand a lot of things that God knew or even revealed by His Spirit in and through the prophets.

    See 1 Cor. 2:14

    Satan was a glorious creature who became God's opponent, not God's opposite. He is far lesser than God and does not have the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, or omni-presence. He can implant ideas into someone's mind, but I don't read anywhere that Satan can read minds.

    Also, to go back to your previous response to me, If you read Luke 4:1-2 and Mark 1:12-13 you will note that the Scriptures say that Jesus went into the wilderness to be tempted for 40 days. The word used for "tempted" in Greek means a continuous action. That is why I said that the devil was tempting Jesus "probing" or "testing" (the Greek word used for tempting means this) Jesus for 40 days. He was trying to find out if Jesus truly was the Son of God, whether He was simply human, or
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 months ago
    GiGi, 2/3

    Going now to the angels. Satan has also free will. In his foolishness because of his superior status as the top angel he thought he could had been like God. He said, I think it is in Ezekiel, thay he wanted to be like, equal to God. Of course he was not that fool to wish to be better than God, just equal to Him. So this again shows that although somebody can be in a sinless state they can still choose to go another direction than the one God wishes for them to go. But what God could had done, but didn't do, was that He could immediately had sent satan away from Heaven without giving him the time and opportunity to approach and deceive other angels too. But He didn't do so. Why not? Because He wanted to give all the angels a choise, the opportunity to "choose", either to go with satan or remain with Him. So He let things get on until the angels had chosen sides.

    So it is not a matter of winning or loosing for God, God is always a victor, but a matter of getting things straight in His Kingdom. If you remember the story in John's gospel when Jesus said that if one doesn't eat His flesh and drinks His blood can not be saved, many disciples turned away. Why didn't Jesus say clearly what He meant and avoid them going away? Because it was His plan so that His disciples will show what they actually had in their heart. Some said He was a fool. That was not something they decided that time. It was in their heart and it came out as a result of His words. Jesus just shook things up. It was their time to choose. With him or away from Him.

    It is always a matter of choise for everybody on this earth. People will be condemned not because they are sinners (we were given a way out of sin) but because they will choose not take advantage of Jesus' sacrifice. The ones who choose to be with God in this life, they will be with God in the other life too ,and the ones who do not want Him here they will not be with Him there either.

    See pt 3
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 months ago
    Hi GiGi, 1/3

    Very interesting posts about God being the victor in anything in the world, both physical and spiritual. I would like to share some thoughts of mine about God and His plan for humans. Angels as well.

    There is no doubt that God is above all. He is infinite, without any measure, in every aspect. He is the uppermost limit of everything. Everything that exists was created by Him and He is in control of everything. He knows beforehand everything that will happen in the future so that puts Him always a step ahead of everybody else. It is like someone who plays a game of chess against a computer that "thinks" a million moves ahead. There is no way one can beat it.

    So why did God create humans and angels able to sin, although they were made sinless? The answer lays in the phrase "free will". Where God can not intervene is our own free will, because if He had done so then we would had been something like robots or programmed computers, but not free personalities. So it was inevitable that since we, as well as angels, have free will, then we can choose what to do, to go this way or to go that way. So was God forced somehow because of the specific circumastances to "loose" the game? No, actually that was how He wanted things to go. He wanted in our own free will to choose him. Our choise not to be something compalsory because we were forced to go His way but because we decided in our own free will to follow Him. And how was that going to be done? By offering people a choise, the opportunity to choose. How can that be done? By puting a temptetation(maybe choise is a better word) infront of us. So He gave Adam and Eve a choise. To choose whether to obey Him and not eating from the tree in the garden or disobey him and sin. So He Himself created that tree and He Himself placed it in the garden of Eden. It was His plan to do so, but definitely it was His will that Adam and Eve wouldn't disobey His commandement, although He knew the outcome.

    See pt 2



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