The group you have here in Revelation 7:2-8 is 12000 Jews out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel as mentioned in vs 4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
And the tribes are listed and divided in the following verses.
This group is sealed by God in will be on earth serving during the tribulation period. The Church would have already been raptured.
Tdianne you won't find in the Bible where it says "only 144,000 people are going to heaven" because it's not in the Bible!
This is the Jehovah Witness beliefs.
The Jehovah's Witnesses started in 1870 by Charles Taze Russell.
In the beginning it was just a few of them and they claimed that only a 144,000 go to heaven and the rest would inherit the Earth.
The problem is they have outgrown the number, now it's millions of them.
They believe they are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation and they were sealed to preach the Kingdom has come.
I hope that helps.
If you have anymore questions on this group let us know.
S Spencer, Thank you for the comment about the 144000 going to heaven. As a child, I read that and it has stuck with me till today. It scared me thinking that even thought Im a child of God only 144000 would go to heaven. Thank you for clearing that up.
In the vision St John heard the number. Did he hear with his physical ears or with the ear of faith? If it is the former the verses aforementioned would need correction. "I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." God gives the revelation of Jesus Christ through his angel. It cannot be to give any news of the physical earth and gossip about who shall make the list or who shall not. God has already recorded their names and the Book of the Lamb has names as well. So 'the servants of our God' ought to be from the latter book.
The number 4 repeated refers to the word of God, which is the basis for the everlasting covenant. The last line puzzles me, "Do you have moderators in which you and Chris are members? Or are you moderate it to suit the denomination you represent?
Hello Bennymkje. Just to clarify, I am not a KJB Online Moderator nor representing a denomination. I am, as you, S. Spencer and most others here, simply believers & lovers of the Word of God who want to help others with their questions or provide input for consideration and discussion. What we have done (as any other who wishes to do here) is to provide an answer to Tdianne's question, which we have done as from God's Word. Now, whether our answer is incorrect, according to your own belief & you then provide your own answer, is for Tdianne to discern, study & digest. So, that is one side of this thread: to answer Tdianne. The other side is whether there should be a further discussion between us on the issues that arise resulting from our often very different biblical hermeneutics.
I could use any of your submissions as examples, but just taking a quick one from this comment: "Did he (St. John) hear with his physical ears or with the ear of faith?" My answer would be a clear, "with his physical ears". Why? Because the Scriptures tell us so ( Revelation 7:1 "I SAW four angels"; Revelation 7:4 "I HEARD the number"). John believed the vision he saw & the words he heard were real, & not just in a dream, a trance or wishful thinking. Now, if you believe that this understanding is incorrect & yours is correct (i.e. 'God isn't giving news of the physical earth and gossip about who shall make the list', etc.), then the burden of proof rests with you as to how you arrive at your conclusion, for clearly that is not what the Word gives us. If John heard "with the ear of faith", how was this faith exercised, when he stated that his vision & hearing were actually real? I realize that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", but did John express such faith here when the vision & the words given to him did not require faith to believe that they were real, but only to receive & record it for us?
The quotes and communication between God and man stated in the Bible are not always verbal. Jonah praying from the belly of the great fish for instance, is cited by the Spirit truthfully because as St Paul says, I shall cite 22 passages,
Ro.8
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his./And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
" Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered./And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Testimony of three must be true.
I am just leaving for my vacation and shall be happy to take up the thread of discussion , with joy and peace in him
If the 12 tribes are still around and truly under the Law of Moses do they need to be have numbered? Isn't circumcision is a sign for them? As with Seth stepping in to fill the void of Abel so many number of Christians from the left out church redeem themselves. It is what baptism for the dead would signify. It was first shown by Jesus Christ.. The first fruits standing with Jesus have the name of the Father in their foreheads."Re.14:1)
This info from wikipedia may be of some interest to you. "After 70 years, many of the captives of Judah returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the city. Because of this and their renewed diligence in keeping God's Sabbath, their history continued. However, the northern 10 tribes largely disappeared from history."
The Spirit uses numbers for specific purposes. God is a Spirit and in order to translate His purpose for man the number 144,000 is made up of 12x12x1000. You shall see multiples of 12 which is the command number for the Gospel of God. 120 (12x10) indicates a man life based on the word of God. "yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."(Ge.6:3).
Jesus chose 12 disciples.
In order to indicate the end times the Spirit sets multiple of 1000 instead. So the number refers to the body of church set apart redeemed by the word of God. In most instances it has nothing to do with numerical value we associate with number.
If you want to reduce the number 12 further (4x3) it shows the number Four which tells the word of God is the same in all cardinal directions. Three is the command number for the Son.
Hello Tdianne. The 144,000 you read about, is found in Revelation 7:2-8 (the sealing of God's servants & their origin) and Revelation 14:1-5 (these who were "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (v4)).
When we come to this Book of the Revelation, there will always be many opinions about the people, events, & timing of their appearance, since much of Revelation is still future. But if we go by what we have been given in these passages, we note that this great number of people are from the twelve tribes of Israel, they are God's servants, undefiled, and they stand with Jesus on Mt. Zion (alluding to Jesus' Second Coming to rule upon the Earth).
These were redeemed as first fruits among men, and yet in Revelation 7:9, John the Revelator sees 'a great multitude without number from all nations also standing before God's Throne & before the Lamb, worshipping God'. So it seems clear that the 144,000 are distinct as those from the tribes of Israel, and there are also those of the Gentile nations, all whom will stand with Jesus in Jerusalem in that coming day. Whether any part of these passages indicate that there is also worship by these in Heaven (& then on Earth), or the specific timing of when these Jews are sealed by God or do His bidding on Earth, are all open to conjecture as what John sees, he brings to us. What John hasn't been told (or shown), would leave both him & us in ignorance to all the specifics. And so we read what we've been given & we should allow the Holy Spirit to guide & comfort our hearts in both the known & unknown.
I love reading and learning from the bible. I don't always understand it so my notebook is full of questions. Other bible study
sites confuse me, thanks for answering my questions.
I agree with Brother Chris.
The group you have here in Revelation 7:2-8 is 12000 Jews out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel as mentioned in vs 4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
And the tribes are listed and divided in the following verses.
This group is sealed by God in will be on earth serving during the tribulation period. The Church would have already been raptured.
Tdianne you won't find in the Bible where it says "only 144,000 people are going to heaven" because it's not in the Bible!
This is the Jehovah Witness beliefs.
The Jehovah's Witnesses started in 1870 by Charles Taze Russell.
In the beginning it was just a few of them and they claimed that only a 144,000 go to heaven and the rest would inherit the Earth.
The problem is they have outgrown the number, now it's millions of them.
They believe they are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation and they were sealed to preach the Kingdom has come.
I hope that helps.
If you have anymore questions on this group let us know.
God bless.
I'm sure we exceeded that number before John penned Revelation.
It has nothing to do with a number of people "Going" to Heaven.
God bless.
In the vision St John heard the number. Did he hear with his physical ears or with the ear of faith? If it is the former the verses aforementioned would need correction. "I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." God gives the revelation of Jesus Christ through his angel. It cannot be to give any news of the physical earth and gossip about who shall make the list or who shall not. God has already recorded their names and the Book of the Lamb has names as well. So 'the servants of our God' ought to be from the latter book.
The number 4 repeated refers to the word of God, which is the basis for the everlasting covenant. The last line puzzles me, "Do you have moderators in which you and Chris are members? Or are you moderate it to suit the denomination you represent?
I could use any of your submissions as examples, but just taking a quick one from this comment: "Did he (St. John) hear with his physical ears or with the ear of faith?" My answer would be a clear, "with his physical ears". Why? Because the Scriptures tell us so ( Revelation 7:1 "I SAW four angels"; Revelation 7:4 "I HEARD the number"). John believed the vision he saw & the words he heard were real, & not just in a dream, a trance or wishful thinking. Now, if you believe that this understanding is incorrect & yours is correct (i.e. 'God isn't giving news of the physical earth and gossip about who shall make the list', etc.), then the burden of proof rests with you as to how you arrive at your conclusion, for clearly that is not what the Word gives us. If John heard "with the ear of faith", how was this faith exercised, when he stated that his vision & hearing were actually real? I realize that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", but did John express such faith here when the vision & the words given to him did not require faith to believe that they were real, but only to receive & record it for us?
The quotes and communication between God and man stated in the Bible are not always verbal. Jonah praying from the belly of the great fish for instance, is cited by the Spirit truthfully because as St Paul says, I shall cite 22 passages,
Ro.8
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his./And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
" Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered./And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
Testimony of three must be true.
I am just leaving for my vacation and shall be happy to take up the thread of discussion , with joy and peace in him
If the 12 tribes are still around and truly under the Law of Moses do they need to be have numbered? Isn't circumcision is a sign for them? As with Seth stepping in to fill the void of Abel so many number of Christians from the left out church redeem themselves. It is what baptism for the dead would signify. It was first shown by Jesus Christ.. The first fruits standing with Jesus have the name of the Father in their foreheads."Re.14:1)
This info from wikipedia may be of some interest to you. "After 70 years, many of the captives of Judah returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the city. Because of this and their renewed diligence in keeping God's Sabbath, their history continued. However, the northern 10 tribes largely disappeared from history."
The Spirit uses numbers for specific purposes. God is a Spirit and in order to translate His purpose for man the number 144,000 is made up of 12x12x1000. You shall see multiples of 12 which is the command number for the Gospel of God. 120 (12x10) indicates a man life based on the word of God. "yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."(Ge.6:3).
Jesus chose 12 disciples.
In order to indicate the end times the Spirit sets multiple of 1000 instead. So the number refers to the body of church set apart redeemed by the word of God. In most instances it has nothing to do with numerical value we associate with number.
If you want to reduce the number 12 further (4x3) it shows the number Four which tells the word of God is the same in all cardinal directions. Three is the command number for the Son.
When we come to this Book of the Revelation, there will always be many opinions about the people, events, & timing of their appearance, since much of Revelation is still future. But if we go by what we have been given in these passages, we note that this great number of people are from the twelve tribes of Israel, they are God's servants, undefiled, and they stand with Jesus on Mt. Zion (alluding to Jesus' Second Coming to rule upon the Earth).
These were redeemed as first fruits among men, and yet in Revelation 7:9, John the Revelator sees 'a great multitude without number from all nations also standing before God's Throne & before the Lamb, worshipping God'. So it seems clear that the 144,000 are distinct as those from the tribes of Israel, and there are also those of the Gentile nations, all whom will stand with Jesus in Jerusalem in that coming day. Whether any part of these passages indicate that there is also worship by these in Heaven (& then on Earth), or the specific timing of when these Jews are sealed by God or do His bidding on Earth, are all open to conjecture as what John sees, he brings to us. What John hasn't been told (or shown), would leave both him & us in ignorance to all the specifics. And so we read what we've been given & we should allow the Holy Spirit to guide & comfort our hearts in both the known & unknown.
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