Hi, I enjoyed reading your discussion and have some further items I'd like to discuss. I think in my original discussion I shared or should have indicated that God is not lonely. Man was not created because God was lonely, I believe God has so much love to share is the reason or cause that He created mankind.
Man, being created in a physical and spiritual form, having ears, eyes, etc. however I don't believe God has these attributes because God was never created he always existed, no one or no thing ever created God. God didn't create himself, he always existed, that's why he said "I am, that I am" in the scripture. Notice in the scripture when God's name was asked, he didn't even provide His name, because it was, I believe too holy for man to hear let alone utter. You'd think if there was a God with this much power mankind would be scrambling to live right, yet that's not the reality for some, and yet to be a reality for "whosoever will." Again this displays God's goodness, God even gives man a free will choice to choose to accept Him.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV
"What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose." Psalms 25:12 KJV
So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision.
To all those questions it is the responsibility of each one of us to give answers to and take the right decisions and go to God and ask Him to provide His grace to us to accomplish them. Jesus, although a God Himself, took as a human person all the good decisions and walked in the Spirit's power. So you see we are vessels, we are soil, dust, but we are individual personalities as well.
This is how I understand and believe this topic. Now, if I am wrong let the Lord show me the right thing.
If I may respond to your comment although not addressed directly to me. You say:
" So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision."
I agree that your quote above is what God COMMANDS us to do.
But here in lies the problem.
None of us will do this or even want to do this with our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE SOUL until God "saves" us and gives us a NEW HEART, a NEW SOUL.
This is very clear from the verses I have referenced in previous comments, if you care to review them. And many other verses as well.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching about the Nature of Salvation, we MUST consider mankind's condition APART from Salvation. That we are Spiritually DEAD, that we love this World far more than we love God or our fellow man, that we want what we want; Eph 2 and many other passages.
And that we cannot and will not turn to God with a broken and contrite HEART, recognizing that we are under the Wrath of God because of our sins.
And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life.
A very interesting and enlightening exercise is to look up all the passages where God uses the terms "Whole Heart" or "Whole Soul" or "All Your Heart" or "All Your Soul" which is what God requires.
Which one of us is capable of this in our Spiritually DEAD condition?
Which one of us even does this perfectly, in our whole personality, after receiving a New Heart, becoming Born Again, since our New Soul still resides in an unsaved Body that still lusts after sin, until separated from that Body at death or receiving our Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day?
But what I have said to Jaz is that for God to change us it is necessary for us to cry out to him to do that and give Him all the time and space to do it. Have you noticed that many christians do not change and remain the same over the years without becoming spiritually mature? Why do you think is that? Because they do not want to change, or they keep a part of their heart for themselves and do not submit it to God. So God stops there and starts knocking at the door of their heart until they open the door, if they ever open it. He doesn't break in. He never breaks in.
Paul said something really great which is often misunderstood. He said in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. "
What does Paul mean? He means that he emptied his heart of anything he himself wanted, he submitted himself totally to God and his commandments, he kept nothing for himself, he gave it all to God, he was in complete obedience. So it was like it wasn't him who lived in that body but like Jesus was living in him. Can we say the same?
Sorry as I said I am struggling to understand what you are saying so maybe my answer is not about what you asked. So, I am sorry if I didn't cover the topic you asked.
I think I do not quite get what you want to say. Of course trying to obey what God commands us to do comes after new birth. No doubt about that. The New Birth and the Baptism in the Sprit are the "tools" that God provides us in our struggle against sin and for changing our sinful heart to a holy heart. This change is not done at once, it takes time. Please read 1 Cor 3:1, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." So when we are born again and we are babies in Christ our heart is still carnal. As we grow spiritually (and allow God to work that carnal heart) then we become spiritually mature. And this takes time.
I don't think we disagree on this.
But new birth can not come before faith. As Brother Chris has said if one is saved by God by being born again before hearing about Christ, what is the point in believing in Christ after that? He is already saved anyway.
Romans 10:14-15, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
So faith comes by hearing (the gospel) and salvation comes by calling upon the name of the Lord (of which we have been preached about)
But maybe I haven't understood exactly what you want to say. You said, "And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life" which means to change our heart. Yes, I agree on that.
Thanks brother! That's my belief also, that Jesus is God. I think it is correct to say that Jesus is God Himself, rather than what you said in your previous post that "Jesus is a God Himself."
Hello Brother and thank you for your reply to me and yes I pretty much agree with everything that you've said . I did send a general message about my thoughts on this topic but it hasn't come on the site yet , maybe I said something amiss , I hope not .
Basically the point I made was that God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting , so I do believe that we have free will but we need to consider that God already knows exactly how we will use it throughout all the days of our lives .
Even Jesus did not know everything when he was here on earth the first time , he says to Peter that he has prayed for him ( Peter ) , that his faith fail not . Only God Himself is all knowing , though of course He has now given all power to His Son but even Jesus does not yet know the time hat God will send him back to us . So there are always things that God keeps to Himself for His own reasons .
All we need to do is trust Him , when Jesus is talking about little children coming to God through him , he's speaking metaphorically , in a parable , we are to be as little children , trusting , not doubting our Fathers love for us and wisdom and righteousness , not doubting His Son and the perfect sacrifice that has cleansed us in God's sight . Thanks again for your excellent reply to me , I can't add any more to your sensible words .
Man was created, by the resurrection of Christ, a new creation.
Man, by the resurrection of Christ, was created the GLORY of God.
Isaiah 4:5 And the Lord will CREATE upon every dwelling place on mount Zion (Christ IN YOU), and upon her assemblies, a cloud and a smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon ALL THE GLORY shall be a defence.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, I CREATE darkness:I make peace, and create evil, I the Lord DO ALL THESE THINGS.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, and they are CREATED, thou renewest the face of the earth.
Christ, the GLORY OF GOD, was resurrected by the Spirit of his Father, and we were joint heirs of his resurrection also becoming the glory of OUR FATHER.
This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom He doesn't want to save He doesn't save. This sort of action doesn't fit to the idea I have of a God who is a righteous God full of love and mercy for all His creation. I can not also accept a regeneration before faith. We have been having this discussion with brother David and sister GiGi lately. Because again if God does that then He chooses whom He loves and who is going to love Him. But you can't do that. People have personalities, have egos, have free wills which means they follow what they love, and if this is the sinful world, like Lot's wife, God simply doesn't intervene. God tries to make us love Him but without forcing us in any way. When he foreknows that we will believe then He helps us in all possible ways, but again without intervening in our free will. Like a father who talks and talks and talks to his child hoping to make him choose to do the right thing in his life.
About God's external appearance. To me it is really dificult to accept that in Heaven I will have to live with a God who is in a form of a shadow or a cloud or something vague and fluid. When He says that we will see His face I believe that He means it.
Does God has a personal name? People have names so to be distinguised from other people. But God? His names in both OT and NT are descriptive of one of His characteristics, ie Lord of Powers (allmighty), Eternal, Self Existing (Yahweh), Father (in NT). That was also the case with people in ancient times. If you pay attention the names given to new borns were after a characteristic they had, Adam(made of dust), Eve(life), Isaac(lough), John(God's gift), Jesus(Savior) etc. Nowadays this is not the case any more but in those ancient times that was the case. I believe this is the reason that ahe aswered Moses about His name. I believe He meant that " I am who I am, the God, I don't have a name". Just an opinion
Hi you shared a lot however I just want to first discuss (and maybe I am late on this) predestined, since I think and understand that God is all knowing. He already knows that of all who have "free choice" will choose whom they will serve that some won't choose to follow Christ Jesus. I think it comes down to the free choice of man, man gets to choose which master he (or she) wants. That being said if one is of God one will choose God, if one is not of God, then those will not choose God because they didn't come from God, since they were not of God from the beginning (as expressed in scripture). Now here's where I think it gets interesting:
..."Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV
God is going to do the separating of those that are His from those that didn't come from God and are not His. That is why in scripture it is written that in the end of the dispensation of time God will confirm that He never knew them, it is written that...
..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 KJV
The way a believer responds to tests and trials helps the believer to know and understand that the believer belongs to God and when a believer realizes who his (or her) master is then the believer will seek God to learn the things of God, since the believer now understands that God is their Father and that they came from God. And that Jesus is the Son of God, helping believers be re-connected or reconciled to God since the fall of Adam.
You wrote: God is going to do the separating of those that are His from those that didn't come from God and are not His. That is why in scripture it is written that in the end of the dispensation of time God will confirm that He never knew them, it is written that...
..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 KJV
Firstly what do you exactly mean with, some are from God and some are not? Do you mean that some are predestinated to believe and others no?
Back to the parable of the 10 virgins, Matthew 25:1-12. At the end of the story Jesus says to the 5 foolish virgins that He doesn't know them. But they are virgins, they were waiting for Him to come, they had light in their lamps, they had oil, maybe not much but they still had. So they are christians, aren't they? Then how come Jesus doesn't know them? Again what is the point of the parable? It is a warning to be ready at any time because when Jesus comes, whether that is the end of our lives or the day of the rapture or the very end, if we do not have sanctification in our lives we will be left out, condemned. Like any other sinner. So He says that He doesn't know us so for us to put it in our mind that the status of being a christian without sanctification will not profit us at all. We will be in this case as any other sinner that Jesus doesn't recognise them as His child. Similarly in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that at the final Judgement there will be christians who had spiritual gifts in their lives but still worked iniquity so they will be considered unknown to Him and will be condemned. Like any other sinner.
Predestination is a big topic and we have had long discussions so far here on this site. Personally I come from a part of the christian world where such doctrines are foreign to christians. GBU
Mat 13:30, "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn"
When Jesus says a parable He has something to point out. Parables are not always stories where every single one detail of the parable corresponds to a real thing. Example. In the parable of the 10 virgins we(christians) consider ouselves as the virgins and this is right. But in the parable the virgins were friends and servants of the bride, but not the bride herself. But we are the bride. So aren't we the virgins? Yes we are. So why Jesus describes us as the friends of the bride and not the bride herself. Because His intention is to warn us to be ready at any time, some of the details of this parable do not have any real correspondence to the real life
So lets go to the parable of the harvest. What is the thing that Jesus wanted to point out? He wanted to point out that some people may look like tares in their lives but at a certain time they may believe and get saved. So God is not in any hury to condemn somebody but He waits until the end before separating the wheat from the tares (this is true for a single person in their lives but also for the whole world at the end). Have you ever seen a tare? If you go to field of wheat you can see some plants that are identical to wheat, you can not distinguish which is which unless you are a farmer but still it is difficult. Do you know when one can easily see which one is which? When they both grow the wheat has little seeds on it, it produces a fruit but the tares do not. So when the farmers in the old tmes cut the plants off at the end it was then easy to them to distinguish between wheat and tare. That also means that a christian has to have a fruit in their lives, if not then they are considered a tare and will be condemned at the end. John the Baptist warned the Pharisses about that.
Dear Brother , you are of course correct about us humans having our own personality , however it's also true that we are merely vessels . God is the potter and we are the clay , Jeremiah is taught this lesson by God Himself . It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us . Jeremiah chapters 18+19 , Romans chapter 9 and Revelation chapter 22 .
We mustn't think of ourselves as anything other than vessels . Jesus emptied himself and was filled with the Spirit if God . He was a vessel but a bit better than us as he was created without lust , born of the pure will of God , therefore he was able to receive the Spirit of God without measure , whereas we are born of the flesh and not able to be filled to the brim in this life . We shall be one with God when all flesh is destroyed and God is All in All . For now we are marred ( by our sin ) vessels that God can use as He sees fit , for He alone is Righteous and all knowing . We are nothing , just grass .
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
Well it sounds strange that God may had felt lonely in the past, but let us think that mankind has been in existence only for the last 6500 years which is not even a droplet in the ocean of God's infinite existence. Surely there were angels around before mankind, but we don't really know for how long. We don't know what was there before the angels were created. Maybe nothing but God. But maybe something.
As you said God who is Love wanted to share His love with other persons, so He created angels and humans. And here is where, I believe, free will comes in. God didn't want robots or programmed computers to live with but individuals with personalities. But once one has a personality of his own, he has a free will as well. And if he has free will, nobody can control him, he does what he wants to do. So both angels and humans can choose whom they wish to love and follow. God can not force them. So some angels rebelled against God, because they simply wanted to do so, not because somebody(God) somehow controlled them and made them sin. Same with humans.
By why did God wanted personalities who only themselves decide what they want to do? Just think, who would like to get married to a woman who was compelled to mary him and had no other option. Nobody, we all like to be with people who love us. Similarly God wanted to share His life with people (and angels) who love Him. So He gives options to people And He tries us in this life and our choice here will follow us in the afterlife, as He also gave options and tried the angels too. It would be very easy for God to appear to mankind, but in such a case everybody would kneel infront of Him, they liked it or not. So what does He do? He keeps Himself in the shadow and tries people. The ones who will eventually respond to His love and love him will become His "wife'(figuratively), His children. This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom not.
For me, God is not in the shadows, I believe God is ever present. God cannot be seen by man, God is a spirit, that being said God's Holy Spirit can be felt or experienced, as it it manifested or brought forth or made known by believers engaging in God's presence, continually or at any moment.
I understand that the bride of Christ is the Church, which is that embodies all believers and that as an individual I am and will become a "son of God" not merely a servant of God and that I am and will be one of His God's dear children.
Man, being created in a physical and spiritual form, having ears, eyes, etc. however I don't believe God has these attributes because God was never created he always existed, no one or no thing ever created God. God didn't create himself, he always existed, that's why he said "I am, that I am" in the scripture. Notice in the scripture when God's name was asked, he didn't even provide His name, because it was, I believe too holy for man to hear let alone utter. You'd think if there was a God with this much power mankind would be scrambling to live right, yet that's not the reality for some, and yet to be a reality for "whosoever will." Again this displays God's goodness, God even gives man a free will choice to choose to accept Him.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV
"What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose." Psalms 25:12 KJV
(will share more discussion later)
So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision.
To all those questions it is the responsibility of each one of us to give answers to and take the right decisions and go to God and ask Him to provide His grace to us to accomplish them. Jesus, although a God Himself, took as a human person all the good decisions and walked in the Spirit's power. So you see we are vessels, we are soil, dust, but we are individual personalities as well.
This is how I understand and believe this topic. Now, if I am wrong let the Lord show me the right thing.
GBU
If I may respond to your comment although not addressed directly to me. You say:
" So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision."
I agree that your quote above is what God COMMANDS us to do.
But here in lies the problem.
None of us will do this or even want to do this with our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE SOUL until God "saves" us and gives us a NEW HEART, a NEW SOUL.
This is very clear from the verses I have referenced in previous comments, if you care to review them. And many other verses as well.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching about the Nature of Salvation, we MUST consider mankind's condition APART from Salvation. That we are Spiritually DEAD, that we love this World far more than we love God or our fellow man, that we want what we want; Eph 2 and many other passages.
And that we cannot and will not turn to God with a broken and contrite HEART, recognizing that we are under the Wrath of God because of our sins.
And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life.
A very interesting and enlightening exercise is to look up all the passages where God uses the terms "Whole Heart" or "Whole Soul" or "All Your Heart" or "All Your Soul" which is what God requires.
Which one of us is capable of this in our Spiritually DEAD condition?
Which one of us even does this perfectly, in our whole personality, after receiving a New Heart, becoming Born Again, since our New Soul still resides in an unsaved Body that still lusts after sin, until separated from that Body at death or receiving our Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day?
But what I have said to Jaz is that for God to change us it is necessary for us to cry out to him to do that and give Him all the time and space to do it. Have you noticed that many christians do not change and remain the same over the years without becoming spiritually mature? Why do you think is that? Because they do not want to change, or they keep a part of their heart for themselves and do not submit it to God. So God stops there and starts knocking at the door of their heart until they open the door, if they ever open it. He doesn't break in. He never breaks in.
Paul said something really great which is often misunderstood. He said in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. "
What does Paul mean? He means that he emptied his heart of anything he himself wanted, he submitted himself totally to God and his commandments, he kept nothing for himself, he gave it all to God, he was in complete obedience. So it was like it wasn't him who lived in that body but like Jesus was living in him. Can we say the same?
Sorry as I said I am struggling to understand what you are saying so maybe my answer is not about what you asked. So, I am sorry if I didn't cover the topic you asked.
I think I do not quite get what you want to say. Of course trying to obey what God commands us to do comes after new birth. No doubt about that. The New Birth and the Baptism in the Sprit are the "tools" that God provides us in our struggle against sin and for changing our sinful heart to a holy heart. This change is not done at once, it takes time. Please read 1 Cor 3:1, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." So when we are born again and we are babies in Christ our heart is still carnal. As we grow spiritually (and allow God to work that carnal heart) then we become spiritually mature. And this takes time.
I don't think we disagree on this.
But new birth can not come before faith. As Brother Chris has said if one is saved by God by being born again before hearing about Christ, what is the point in believing in Christ after that? He is already saved anyway.
Romans 10:14-15, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
So faith comes by hearing (the gospel) and salvation comes by calling upon the name of the Lord (of which we have been preached about)
But maybe I haven't understood exactly what you want to say. You said, "And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life" which means to change our heart. Yes, I agree on that.
Did you intend to say that Jesus is a God Himself? Just curious!
I mean that Jesus is God Himself, a part of the Godhead/Trinity.
Thanks brother! That's my belief also, that Jesus is God. I think it is correct to say that Jesus is God Himself, rather than what you said in your previous post that "Jesus is a God Himself."
Blessings!
Basically the point I made was that God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting , so I do believe that we have free will but we need to consider that God already knows exactly how we will use it throughout all the days of our lives .
Even Jesus did not know everything when he was here on earth the first time , he says to Peter that he has prayed for him ( Peter ) , that his faith fail not . Only God Himself is all knowing , though of course He has now given all power to His Son but even Jesus does not yet know the time hat God will send him back to us . So there are always things that God keeps to Himself for His own reasons .
All we need to do is trust Him , when Jesus is talking about little children coming to God through him , he's speaking metaphorically , in a parable , we are to be as little children , trusting , not doubting our Fathers love for us and wisdom and righteousness , not doubting His Son and the perfect sacrifice that has cleansed us in God's sight . Thanks again for your excellent reply to me , I can't add any more to your sensible words .
Man was created, by the resurrection of Christ, a new creation.
Man, by the resurrection of Christ, was created the GLORY of God.
Isaiah 4:5 And the Lord will CREATE upon every dwelling place on mount Zion (Christ IN YOU), and upon her assemblies, a cloud and a smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon ALL THE GLORY shall be a defence.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, I CREATE darkness:I make peace, and create evil, I the Lord DO ALL THESE THINGS.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, and they are CREATED, thou renewest the face of the earth.
Christ, the GLORY OF GOD, was resurrected by the Spirit of his Father, and we were joint heirs of his resurrection also becoming the glory of OUR FATHER.
God Bless You
This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom He doesn't want to save He doesn't save. This sort of action doesn't fit to the idea I have of a God who is a righteous God full of love and mercy for all His creation. I can not also accept a regeneration before faith. We have been having this discussion with brother David and sister GiGi lately. Because again if God does that then He chooses whom He loves and who is going to love Him. But you can't do that. People have personalities, have egos, have free wills which means they follow what they love, and if this is the sinful world, like Lot's wife, God simply doesn't intervene. God tries to make us love Him but without forcing us in any way. When he foreknows that we will believe then He helps us in all possible ways, but again without intervening in our free will. Like a father who talks and talks and talks to his child hoping to make him choose to do the right thing in his life.
About God's external appearance. To me it is really dificult to accept that in Heaven I will have to live with a God who is in a form of a shadow or a cloud or something vague and fluid. When He says that we will see His face I believe that He means it.
Does God has a personal name? People have names so to be distinguised from other people. But God? His names in both OT and NT are descriptive of one of His characteristics, ie Lord of Powers (allmighty), Eternal, Self Existing (Yahweh), Father (in NT). That was also the case with people in ancient times. If you pay attention the names given to new borns were after a characteristic they had, Adam(made of dust), Eve(life), Isaac(lough), John(God's gift), Jesus(Savior) etc. Nowadays this is not the case any more but in those ancient times that was the case. I believe this is the reason that ahe aswered Moses about His name. I believe He meant that " I am who I am, the God, I don't have a name". Just an opinion
..."Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV
God is going to do the separating of those that are His from those that didn't come from God and are not His. That is why in scripture it is written that in the end of the dispensation of time God will confirm that He never knew them, it is written that...
..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 KJV
The way a believer responds to tests and trials helps the believer to know and understand that the believer belongs to God and when a believer realizes who his (or her) master is then the believer will seek God to learn the things of God, since the believer now understands that God is their Father and that they came from God. And that Jesus is the Son of God, helping believers be re-connected or reconciled to God since the fall of Adam.
You wrote: God is going to do the separating of those that are His from those that didn't come from God and are not His. That is why in scripture it is written that in the end of the dispensation of time God will confirm that He never knew them, it is written that...
..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 KJV
Firstly what do you exactly mean with, some are from God and some are not? Do you mean that some are predestinated to believe and others no?
Back to the parable of the 10 virgins, Matthew 25:1-12. At the end of the story Jesus says to the 5 foolish virgins that He doesn't know them. But they are virgins, they were waiting for Him to come, they had light in their lamps, they had oil, maybe not much but they still had. So they are christians, aren't they? Then how come Jesus doesn't know them? Again what is the point of the parable? It is a warning to be ready at any time because when Jesus comes, whether that is the end of our lives or the day of the rapture or the very end, if we do not have sanctification in our lives we will be left out, condemned. Like any other sinner. So He says that He doesn't know us so for us to put it in our mind that the status of being a christian without sanctification will not profit us at all. We will be in this case as any other sinner that Jesus doesn't recognise them as His child. Similarly in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that at the final Judgement there will be christians who had spiritual gifts in their lives but still worked iniquity so they will be considered unknown to Him and will be condemned. Like any other sinner.
Predestination is a big topic and we have had long discussions so far here on this site. Personally I come from a part of the christian world where such doctrines are foreign to christians. GBU
Mat 13:30, "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn"
When Jesus says a parable He has something to point out. Parables are not always stories where every single one detail of the parable corresponds to a real thing. Example. In the parable of the 10 virgins we(christians) consider ouselves as the virgins and this is right. But in the parable the virgins were friends and servants of the bride, but not the bride herself. But we are the bride. So aren't we the virgins? Yes we are. So why Jesus describes us as the friends of the bride and not the bride herself. Because His intention is to warn us to be ready at any time, some of the details of this parable do not have any real correspondence to the real life
So lets go to the parable of the harvest. What is the thing that Jesus wanted to point out? He wanted to point out that some people may look like tares in their lives but at a certain time they may believe and get saved. So God is not in any hury to condemn somebody but He waits until the end before separating the wheat from the tares (this is true for a single person in their lives but also for the whole world at the end). Have you ever seen a tare? If you go to field of wheat you can see some plants that are identical to wheat, you can not distinguish which is which unless you are a farmer but still it is difficult. Do you know when one can easily see which one is which? When they both grow the wheat has little seeds on it, it produces a fruit but the tares do not. So when the farmers in the old tmes cut the plants off at the end it was then easy to them to distinguish between wheat and tare. That also means that a christian has to have a fruit in their lives, if not then they are considered a tare and will be condemned at the end. John the Baptist warned the Pharisses about that.
We mustn't think of ourselves as anything other than vessels . Jesus emptied himself and was filled with the Spirit if God . He was a vessel but a bit better than us as he was created without lust , born of the pure will of God , therefore he was able to receive the Spirit of God without measure , whereas we are born of the flesh and not able to be filled to the brim in this life . We shall be one with God when all flesh is destroyed and God is All in All . For now we are marred ( by our sin ) vessels that God can use as He sees fit , for He alone is Righteous and all knowing . We are nothing , just grass .
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
Well it sounds strange that God may had felt lonely in the past, but let us think that mankind has been in existence only for the last 6500 years which is not even a droplet in the ocean of God's infinite existence. Surely there were angels around before mankind, but we don't really know for how long. We don't know what was there before the angels were created. Maybe nothing but God. But maybe something.
As you said God who is Love wanted to share His love with other persons, so He created angels and humans. And here is where, I believe, free will comes in. God didn't want robots or programmed computers to live with but individuals with personalities. But once one has a personality of his own, he has a free will as well. And if he has free will, nobody can control him, he does what he wants to do. So both angels and humans can choose whom they wish to love and follow. God can not force them. So some angels rebelled against God, because they simply wanted to do so, not because somebody(God) somehow controlled them and made them sin. Same with humans.
By why did God wanted personalities who only themselves decide what they want to do? Just think, who would like to get married to a woman who was compelled to mary him and had no other option. Nobody, we all like to be with people who love us. Similarly God wanted to share His life with people (and angels) who love Him. So He gives options to people And He tries us in this life and our choice here will follow us in the afterlife, as He also gave options and tried the angels too. It would be very easy for God to appear to mankind, but in such a case everybody would kneel infront of Him, they liked it or not. So what does He do? He keeps Himself in the shadow and tries people. The ones who will eventually respond to His love and love him will become His "wife'(figuratively), His children. This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom not.
For me, God is not in the shadows, I believe God is ever present. God cannot be seen by man, God is a spirit, that being said God's Holy Spirit can be felt or experienced, as it it manifested or brought forth or made known by believers engaging in God's presence, continually or at any moment.
I understand that the bride of Christ is the Church, which is that embodies all believers and that as an individual I am and will become a "son of God" not merely a servant of God and that I am and will be one of His God's dear children.
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