Bible Discussion Thread

Sinless Perfection (Part 3):

There is so much more that can be said here, but I am going to end with this:

In 1 John 2:1, it literally reads: "My children, these things I write to you, in order that you should not sin; and if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;" John states that he is writing so that they "should not sin." The verb tense here is an Aorist Subjunctive. This means that John is referring to an act of sin, not a lifestyle of sin. John is speaking to new believers. John doesn't tell them that they are now without sin, or they will no longer commit sin. In fact, gives them advice on what to do if and when they do sin. He says that "if anyone should sin," and he's using an Aorist Subjunctive which is expressing a single act of sin. If anyone should commit an act of sin, we have an advocate (defense lawyer) in Jesus Christ who will intercede for us.

Will we as believers ever reach a state of sinless perfection? Yes, we will, but not until we receive our glorified bodies. As long as we are on this earth living in this body of flesh, we will never be sinless, we will never reach sinlessness, nor will we ever be perfect. But someday, at God's appointed time, He will make us perfect, and He will make us sinless ( 1 Corinthians 15:53-55). We can't reach this state on our own, so we need to quit trying!

Dear Brother what an excellent message , thank you for it . I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you said except the very last bit , we must not stop trying to do those things that we know are acceptable to God and to avoid doing those things that we know are not pleasing to Him , remember the unprofitable servant of Luke chapter 17 verses 7 through to 10 . We are at best unprofitable servants and that is the best we can hope to achieve but , it is something that we can aim for . I used to enjoy gambling and I would still be doing it if I didn't know that God does not want me to . Many times in our lives we will be faced with temptations and when we succeed in resisting the evil choice and choosing the right thing in God's sight , then we are being unprofitable servants , only doing that which was our duty to do . That's how we must always see ourselves , not as masters of our own desires but as unprofitable servants doing only what is our duty , because we know it's what God wants us to do or not to do as the case may be . We cannot overcome our sinful nature any other way other than by the way God has prepared for us , obedience . Children only know how to do the right thing because their parents tell them it's the right thing . Their desire is to eat sweets all day and it seems like a good idea to them , only because we tell them that it's not good for them do they know that it's not the right thing to do , they don't overcome their own desires , they listen to their parents guidance trusting that their parent knows best . That's how we should be . I know that I could win money if I gamble , I've done so in the past , and I could use that money for all kinds of good things , so I think . God knows better . I must trust Him and not my own understanding , Proverbs chapter 3 verses 5 to 8 . God bless you Brother .

Jaz,

(Part 2):

Now, as for the things in your post, yes, I do remember the unprofitable servant and have read Luke Chapter 17. That is a great section of scripture as I'm sure you would agree. You mention that "We cannot overcome our sinful nature any other way other than by the way God has prepared for us, obedience."

God commands us to be obedient to Him. But until the day we die, or the Lord comes for us first, we will always have a sinful nature because of the flesh. We cannot overcome that. I made mention that we need to be able to differentiate between the flesh and the Spirit of God that lives in us. Our flesh will never submit to the Lord or be obedient to Him.

I guess the whole point I am trying to make is that we in our own human effort can do nothing that is pleasing to the Lord. I hear people say that they are doing God's work for Him, or they are doing this or that for the Lord. I don't agree with any of that.

Again, it comes down to understanding the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. The flesh cannot do anything pleasing to God. But there are many out there that are trying very hard in their own human efforts to do the things that are pleasing to God.

I stopped trying several years ago once I realized that God wasn't going to bless anything I did in my own effort. The only thing we can do that is pleasing to Him is to submit to the persuasion of His Spirit working in our lives. But it's His work, not ours. I think we spend too much time trying to please Him by our human effort. But many still keep on trying!

I'm so sorry Jesse , I obviously didn't make myself clear when I said that I agreed with everything that you said except the last part where you said we need to stop trying . To stop trying , to me , means that I can do anything that I want wether or not I know it to be the wrong thing and therefore displeasing to God , or the right thing , that which is acceptable to Him . As I stated , as I am human I will fail sometimes and this is where the sacrifice of our Sinless Redeemer comes in .

I don't know how much clearer I could have been but obviously I am at fault for not expressing myself correctly . I shall endeavour to do better next time .

Jaz,

There is absolutely no need for apology. We each have our own way of expressing our thoughts and our own way of putting those thoughts into writing. If I didn't catch what you were getting at, that's on me. I definitely did not mean that we should not be doing what is pleasing to the Lord, or that we should do whatever we want.

We as believers should doing what is pleasing to the Lord, but the only thing He is pleased with are the things we do while under the persuasion of His Spirit leading us to do those things. In other words, anything I do that is pleasing to Him, it is not my doing, but Him doing His work through me. If I, in my own human effort am trying to please Him, and if I believe I am succeeding in my own effort to do what is pleasing to Him, then I have something to boast of. If it's me in the flesh (human effort) doing the work, how can I possibly give all the glory to the Lord?

That's why I say to stop trying. If I apply that to myself, it means that I stop trying in (my own effort) to do what is pleasing to Him and surrender and submit to His Spirit persuading me to do what is right in His eyes. Again, it is His Spirit in me doing the work through me, nothing I'm doing apart from Him. That way, He gets all the glory!

You said, "as you are human, you will fail sometimes, and this is where the sacrifice of our Sinless Redeemer comes in."

I say amen to that! We all fail sometimes; I know I do. But that's the whole point I was trying to make. We will never reach a state of sinless perfection as long as we are in this body of flesh. But when we do fail (commit a single act of sin), we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. All our sins are covered by His blood, past, present, and future!

Jaz, it's been very nice talking to you. I don't think we have been in any discussions before. May the Lord continue to lead and guide and bless you in all your ways. And may He continue to give you a never-ending hunger for His word.

God Bless!!!

Thank you Brother , I'm glad we cleared that up . Ive discovered it's very easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood when communicating on the internet , so much is missed when we can't see each others facial expressions or body language and hear the tones and inflections in a voice . Words are enormously powerful so we need to choose them wisely but on the internet we are only getting a portion of the communication because the typed words are all we are getting and giving .

We seem to be in total agreement on this subject so no worries there . God bless you .

Jaz,

Again, I do thank you for taking the time to read my 3-part message about striving or attaining "sinless perfection." You mention that you agree with everything I said except the very last part. I am assuming it is the part where I said, "we need to stop trying."

As I've read through what you are disagreeing with, I just would like to say that those were not my words. I am not sure what you meant by saying "we must not stop trying to do those things that we know are acceptable to God and to avoid doing those things that we know are not pleasing to Him," but those were not my words.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming you are disagreeing with my last statement where I said that "we cannot reach a state of sinless perfection, so we need to quit trying." I believe this statement fits perfectly well with everything I said in my 3-part post that you agreed with. What am I missing?

As for me saying that we need to stop trying, please allow me to explain. My entire post was about being completely sin free or reaching a state of sinless perfection. I mentioned that we will only be in this state when we receive our glorified bodies. Definitely no sooner than that, and especially not in this life while we are living in this fleshly body that is corrupt. You said that you agreed with that, so what I don't understand is why you would disagree with my statement that we need to stop trying?

I need to send a part 2...

Jaz,

Thank you for reading my message. I will respond back as soon as I can. We are meeting up with some friends from out of state so my day today will not allow me much time.

Blessings to you in Christ!