Bible Discussion Thread

PART 7

HISTORICAL EYEWITNESS OF CONSTANTINE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CHANGING THE SABBATH TO SUNDAY.

*"The Catholic Encyclopedia is the most comprehensive resource on Catholic teaching, history, and information ever gathered in all of human history. This easy-to-search online version, was originally printed between 1907 and 1912 in fifteen hard copy volumes."

"The Bible says "remember" that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And low

the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church." American Sentinel, Father Enright, June 1893

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews before the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued TILL the time of the Laodician council." The Whole Works Of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p416.

"Constantine published the Edict of Milan, granting freedom of religion in the empire and establishing Sunday as a day of worship." Collier Encyclopedia

vol 7, p. 212

"It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the 1st day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Ladiocea, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication)." Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, Kansas City, MO

Hello Giannis: I appreciate your comments but I politely disagree with both. The names (not quotes) you gave me were Catholics not Christians. Big difference. If you don't mind, would you be able to respond with quotes to show historical proof of what you say.

Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)

PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later.

Hello Momsage.

It was not the Catholic church that established Sunday instead of Sabbath. Untill 1054 AD when the scism/split between the Western Catholic Church and the Eastern Ortodox Church occured, the church was a united universal church. That church came as continuation of the first church and kept many of the traditions and ordinances of that early church. Apart from the Bible there are many other writtings of early christians who wrote about Sunday. Some of them are: Justin the Martyr (100-165 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (50-120/140 AD), The Epistle of Barnabas (70-130 AD), The Teachings of the 12 Apostles (Didascalia Apostolorum) 70-200 AD

Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

"Hello Giannis: I appreciate your comments but I politely disagree with both. The names (not quotes) you gave me were Catholics not Christians. Big difference. If you don't mind, would you be able to respond with quotes to show historical proof of what you say.

Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)

PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later."

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I posted them by mistake. I wasn't done proofreading them. Sorry for the confusion.

Hello Momsage,

I think that Giannis is correct, these men he quotes were believers of the early church who followed in the steps of the apostles who had died not much before they were born or came into adulthood. These men were the leaders who helped the fledgling church in the decades after the death of John, the last apostle to die. Their doctrine and practice was the closest to what the apostles taught and practiced than any time in history.

I think it is an error to label such people non-Christian. they professed Jesus as their Lord just like you and I and the whole of the Christian believers over the centuries. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist at this time. The RCC developed from these correct beginnings many centuries later, and with the rise of the papacy and the Holy Roman Empire after 500 AD, corruption was introduced and/or approved by the papacy and House of Cardinals of the Vatican.

There is much to learn about church history. Our roots go back through the Reformation, the Holy Roman Empire, the RCC, and the early church councils and leaders who refuted many heresies during the first centuries that we can be thankful for. But all was not rosy and good over the centuries and we should become knowledgeable of what has transpired between Pentecost and now. The old adage, "If one will not learn from history they are bound to repeat it." is applicable to us. When we wish to speak about what has happened in the past centuries, we should study church history to find out what really happened and what things led to the good things that came out of the church and the bad things that were worked into the church by the enemy.

Like it or now, believers today are indebted to those who were faithful believers all the way back to the apostles, and also we need to be aware of how the church has erred over time in both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. We need to be careful to avoid some of the same mistakes that occurred in recent past and ancient past

Hi GiGi: I'm a little confused. Where did Barnabas 15:9 come from? Also, could you help me out and provide historical proof of what you are saying? You reference way back in history which you could only have gotten from historical records so I'd love to read them. I know you have been studying for years so please excuse me for picking your brain.

These are the quotes I used in my discussion with Chris. Please tell me why these are not authentic?

"Constantine published the Edict of Milan, granting freedom of religion in the empire and establishing Sunday a day of worship"

Collier Encyclopedia, vol 7, p. 212

"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo

"The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic Church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. and low the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." American Sentinel, Father Enright, 1893

God Bless :)

Hello again, Momsage,

You can look up the "Epistle of Barnabas" for more information. It was written in the 1st 100 years of the church.

It is a different document than the "Gospel of Barnabas" which was written in the Middle Ages and is heretical.

Hope this helps.

I'm so sorry GiGi but I thought these discussions were based on the inspired Word of God - the King James Bible. I don't understand how you can quote someone outside the KJB. That is the authority here, not some obscure document that wasn't canonized. I'm confused why the people in charge of this discussion forum allowed references from a false document that was not from the KJB. How can I trust anything in any discussion anymore. Please don't misunderstand me, I think you are a very nice, smart woman but I am going to get out of here now.

I understand your frustration Momsage , I too am extremely irritated when people put too much importance on what other , ordinary people say and think about the Bible as if they are in some way superior in knowledge to any of us . We are all reading the same book so any knowledge from that book is available for all of us to read and understand . All that is required is dedication patience and prayer and any of us can know the Truth . Humans have always tried to add or subtract from the Word of God , claiming to know or understand things better than others , as if they have some mystical gift , basically trying to make themselves into something special when all we need to know us available to all in the Bible . This is why many churches , especially in the past , did not encourage their congregation to actually read the Bible for themselves . I wish you would stay with us , I notice that you talk a lot about one particular subject , the Sabbath , it would be interesting to talk about other aspects of the Bible also :) it's a big book so there's plenty to talk about . I have often felt like never reading this site ever again but , hopefully you will cool down and come back , I always do :) . It can feel a bit as if everyone is against you on here sometimes but I handle that by not reading the posts of people that I know don't like me much :) it works wonders :):):) . Hope you will pop back and have a chat soon , maybe try a different subject ? Much love in Christ .

Hi Jema: I know I'm a bit late replying to this but I just now read the whole thread of what happened and I am so glad you and GiGi and Giannis are good to go with each other and I'm sorry my reaction was so strong and I caused trouble. I'm trying not to do that again. I am back to discussing the Sabbath with Giannis again, unless he doesn't want to then I won't. The only reason I continue to discuss the Sabbath is because (I'm not insulting Giannis, only stating my perception of these discussions and why I'm hanging on like a Pitbull LOL.) I don't feel like he has responded to my questions about why he believes that the breaking of bread can only mean the weekly service of the Early Church - that there can be no other possible interpretation. All his beliefs in the Early Church abandoning the Sabbath for Sunday worship are based on the breaking of bread premise that it had to only mean that it refers to the weekly meeting of the Early Church. Some scriptures do state that the Church met on the first day of the week, Sunday but that could just simply mean the church met on Sunday at different times other then on the Sabbath just as churches meet on different days today. For example, John 20:19 (the Church gathered together on the first day of the week because they were afraid of the Jews, not because it was time for church.) Giannis also used historical writings to back up his belief that the Early Church stopped worshipping on the Sabbath and I couldn't agree to that. (Giannis if you read this post, please don't think I am talking behind your back. I would never do that I am just trying to explain why I haven't given up on the Sabbath.) He asked me to provide scripture that validated they didn't give up on the Sabbath and I gave him a lot but he just wouldn't accept them with no real response why. All you have to do read these few and you can see that the Early church was keeping the Sabbath holy.. Acts 17:2, Acts 13:14, Acts 15:21, Acts 18:4. God Bless :)

Hi Momsage , I understand and respect your passion for this subject , I too can get very emphatic about certain things :) . My personal belief is that I wish I could have one day a week , to myself entirely , to be totally alone with my Heavenly Father and do nothing other that meditate on His Word , that would be bliss . As you are no doubt aware , we women always have things to do ( no offence meant to the guys on here :) ) , the brunt of housework cooking cleaning etc falls on us , even if we work outside the home . I try to keep God and His Word in my heart all day every day , that's not to say that I succeed but I do try . My personal belief is that the Sabbath of old testament times is a foreshadow of the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth as I've stated before . I'm in no way offended by anyone who wishes to try to keep it in the here and now and I do wish I could have that privilege . Let's all look forward to that time when we shall live and reign with our Saviour , only doing the works that God wants us to and not doing any of our own , we will then truly be living our entire lives only to serve Him , what bliss . Thy Kingdom Come .

Hi Jema. Your comment made me so sad. What you expressed is the exact result of why the Sabbath was abolished by Satan. Not that what you're doing is sin, I just mean the result of Christians abandoning this commandment to live the privilege of having this day of rest every week is no longer believed it can even be lived because of his deceitfulness, but it can. May I say, please stop wishing for it and start praying instead :) and believing for it. God knows in your heart you want to obey Him in this and He WILL make a way. Of Course, I don't know what things keep you so busy that you can't find this rest but I do know a good, good, God who gives us the desires of our hearts, especially, when it is a desire to please Him in obedience. If you understand God's intentions for this commandment you will understand that it was commanded and told to be "remembered" for our own special needs as a human. God knew that a day to rest with Him and family and at times Christian friends in fellowship would refresh us mentally, physically and spiritually until He returns. ALL of the 10 commandments were given to mankind until the end. We obey all of them except the 4th. Some believers say Sunday is suppose to be that day. This is fine but they imply the commandment was given for fellowship and worship like a church service when all God asked was for us to rest on that dayn to cease from our labor. The early church did follow the Sabbath, resting from their labor and also gathering together to break bread and worship. What better day to do that and also be in obedience to God then on the Sabbath? I'm not going to pray that God will grant your wish, but answer your prayer in providing this blessing for you. As you pray, just believe and let God do the work, don't try to figure it out for yourself as we are all so tempted to do. I love you dear sister and I look forward to seeing what God has planned for you. Jerimiah 29:11 God Bless :)

Momsage,

I am surprised that you still hold on "ALL of the 10 commandments were given to mankind until the end. We obey all of them except the 4th. Some believers say Sunday is suppose to be that day."

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law and his death and resurrection opened the Way. It is what we believe as entering into the rest of God. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."(1 Co.13:10) How often so called believers though claim to the liberty which is in Christ carry, also their 'baggage' as Rachel did. (Ge.31:34) so Roman Catholics may leave behind Mariolatry but clutch something else. In all humility I ask you to examine your life in order to see if you are struggling under an error. In the 80s I was with a cult group and a decade or so after leaving it it gave me great many shocks their pernicious teachings could spring up in unguarded moments.

Jesus reduced the ten commandments into two. He did it as the Lord of the heaven and as the Word become flesh. The great dragon had ten horns and the Command number 10 merely an indication of judgment. Satan is already judged. Similarly the beast (Re.13:1). "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;/Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;" (1 Ti.4:1-4) It is thus those who follow doctrine of the devils have their consciences seared as with hot iron: Number Ten. Be not deceived Momsage.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."(Gal.2:16) Faith means resting in the promises of God. This is what abiding in Christ means.

If I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, I apologize. But if not, I find your comments very harsh and insulting to me as a true believer in Christ. To accuse me of these harsh things is hard to understand just because I am sure God intended for mankind to take a day off once a week and rest. I can't possible understand how you can believe the 10 commandments are not perfect, written by the hand of a perfect God. They are only given for the good of mankind from a good God. Jesus did give the 2 new commandments but he just simply combined the 10 into 2. The first one tells us to love God with all our hearts, minds and souls, this covers the first 4 of the 10; worship the one true God, do not use His name as a cuss word, don't worship false gods, and devote one day a week to rest in Him. The second one covers the last 6 which deals with treating your fellowman with how you would want to be treated; honor your parents, don't kill (ratsach: murder, slay) (even in your heart as Jesus also added), no adulatry (including in your heart as Jesus also added), no stealing, no lying ( little or big) and no coveting.

I was very hesitant to reply to you because of the unkind way you expressed your opinion, I wanted to ignore you, but I didn't because others will read your reply and I feel, in righteous indignation. that I need to debunk what you have accused me of. If you are going to accuse someone of being a heretic and holding on to garbage learned in a cult (I was never in a cult) you are being insulting and should not be on this forum which calls for kindness and love. You didn't do that. I am a true Christian, dedicated to my precious Lord and I do live my life as He would want me to based only on His word, and please don't come back with a snarky "you must think your perfect then," because I'm not. I do have my weaknesses and faults (not sins) but the Holy Spirit is always helping me to overcome them and is helping me to grow in the Lord. Again, if I am wrong, sorry.

Hey Momsage, it is an exercise in futility. You see my "unkindness" earlier in this? As was mentioned before, you can tell the vast wisdom of scriptual "enlightenment" that some on here have acquired? Oh yes, massive dissertations, pages of deep understanding into the deepest depths of scripture. Knowledge far surpassing any of us, "childlike" people. 2 Peter 3:16 comes to mind. So smart and can't even discern Paul's teachings about the ceremonial law and the moral law. Shake the dust off your feet, I've been through this before, they too scared to walk out in faith in this truth, simple as that. Too busy "explaining" it away, the ONE commandment that starts with remember, these highly "skilled" deep thinking bible "scholars" try to teach people to forget. So be it, the Lord will judge.

Hi Rainwalker:

Last night when I read your reply, I had considered going on with the discussions for the sake of others who might be helped by them, but when I read the usual replies refusing to accept the 4th commandment as a command from God, and still calling it an abolished law I am convinced you are right, although, I would have said it in a kinder way. Anyway, I just received a reply from Giannis and I have said "no more" because it is getting to heated and I am being accused of saying things I didn't say. Giannis is by brother in the Lord and I don't want our discussions to be more then a back and forth conversation with each other truly listening to the other side and answering concerns and questions with scripture and Godly common sense. I did ask him if he wanted to discuss the topic listed below or if not to start a discussion about something else. So I have taken your advise and have ended the "Sabbath" discussions that are addressed to me.

If I asked you to comment on what you think of Israel, if they are special to God, especially with what is going on now, is that ok or to heavy of a subject?

No subject is "too heavy", I mean really it's kinda simple sometimes. My response to Israel would simply be, Col 3:11, neither jew or gentile, Gal 3:28.. praying for the "peace of jerusalem " is old testament, where the new testament is "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Galatians opened my eyes about "Israel".. cast out the bondwoman.. you know, the allegory Paul speaks of in detail.

Thanks. I'll have to do some studying on what you said before I reply. Please be kind to me, I'm a very sensitive soul. LOL. I look forward to talking with you.

God Bless :)

I love brothers and sisters in Christ, these know it all scripture twisters are the ones that stir up my indignation. These "scholars" that hide behind out of context scriptures. Love in Christ to you.

Yes I agree , the two commandments are to love God and to love everyone as we love ourselves , on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets . Then I think about who the law was given to....the Israelites . The law was not for us gentiles , it wasn't given to us gentiles . We are and have always been under the grace of God , who has always made the sun to shine on the just and on the unjust and He still does . Grace and Truth came through Christ . So....the question is , why did Christ need to fulfil the law by loving God and us to the extent that he laid down his life , as God asked him to , for our sakes ? This makes me think that Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses for the benefit of the children of Israel , for their salvation . Jesus came first and foremost for the lost sheep of the house of Israel who were ( supposed to be ) living under the law of Moses . We heathen have always been a law unto ourselves , only surviving by the grace of God . For sure Christ died for us and our sins but we were never under the law , the law was for natural Israel . We are under the Grace of God which gives us the light of life in Christ , we no longer walk in darkness and ignorance . We are one with the Israelites , in Christ . If we are Christ's then are we Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise . Israel is one nation . So in the old testament when God talks about Israel , He isn't just talking about physical Israel , the Jews , He's talking about us Christians also that have been grafted in . Just as there is no make or female there is no Jew or gentile , we are one in Christ . So all the future prophecies about 'Israel' are about physical Israel the Jews and spiritual Israel us Christians . We are all the Israel of God . None of us are preeminent , we are one body .

Hi Jema. I have to say I honestly don't understand your reasoning. If the 10 commandments were only for the Jews, then why do Gentiles obey 9 of them even today? You say to love God and others "hang on all the laws and prophets (which is true) then you negate that by saying they were only for the Jews?? Also, you and others in thus discussion keep calling the Commandments of God laws. They are not laws, those were the statues, ordinances and laws God gave to Moses to expand on the Commandments for the Jews to fully understand. If these Commandment and what He gave Moses weren't for the Gentils of the OT then what justification did God have to punish the heathen Gentils? He had justification because there were always men who believed and lived Godly lives from the time of Adam to tell them and show them. After the Commandments and laws were given they knew even more of God and who He was. Christ became the one and only needed sacrificial Lamb for our salvation, so, of course, sacrificial laws were done away with but, obviously, the 10 Comandments weren't. If you don't believe the 2 new Commandments that Jesus gave us don't teach us the same as the 10 Commandments then please give me a scriptural reason why and explain why we still obey them today. The reason the Commandments weren't laws is because laws can be rewritten, added to or abolished but the Commandments were written by God with His own hand and they can't be treated as laws unless mankind disobediently tries to unsuccessfully. My point about this whole discussion with everyone is God commands us to take a good, relaxing rest one day a week. It is a wonderful command. Way do believers not want to obey it? You can if you trust God to make the way.

What do you think, in the light of the scripture, is going to happen to Israel and the Jews?

God Bless :)

Dear Momsage , as I've said before , I admire your passion for this subject but , may I suggest that you may have neglected other parts of the Bible in your zeal for this one subject ? Amos Ch 3 V 1+2 . The Bible is a whole and scripture supports and illuminates scripture . I have never said that anyone should ignore any of the ten commandments . Have you read the book of Galatians ? Ch 3 is especially helpful in this subject . I'm not much of a person to get into big debates , but there are plenty on here who enjoy that sort of thing , maybe you should direct your posts to them . Much love to you in Christ .

I am sorry Jema, I didn't mean to bombard you, I was just answering you.

Two short replies I believe I need to tell you and I won't expect a reply.

The Commandments were not LAWS. They were commands written by God not to be disobeyed. If they are the laws you say that we are no longer expected to obey them then why do we? None of you have ever answered that question.

MERRIAN-WEBSTER DICTIONARY

Bewitched:

controlled or affected by or as if by a magic spell

influenced, attracted, or charmed as if by magic

The only criteria you have for saying I am bewitched is just because I believe the 4th commandment needs to be obeyed and believers should take one day of rest from their labors each week. Your implication that I am bewitched seems kind of harsh and unloving but maybe I've misunderstood your meaning. Anyway, I will end this discussion on the subject of the Sabbath and if I reply to any of your other discussions on this forum, I'll be sure to keep it short. I do understand where you are coming from, my daughter is the same way. God Bless :)

I did not use the word bewitched and that thought never occured to me .

You referenced Galtions 3 and the first versed is that the letter is addressed to the Bewiched.

In V 26-28 of Galatians Ch 3 , it says that the Galatians are : the children of God by faith in Christ , one in Christ and Abraham's seed according to the promise , yet you chose to pick out bewitched and infer that I was calling you bewitched , which I was not .

Jema: if you look back at your reply you will see that you only referenced Gal. 3, not any verses, which is why I responded to verse 1 as I did and I said there was a possibility I had misunderstood which I did. I have decided to not discuss the Sabbath anymore as you may know. I love you dearly as a sister in the Lord and I hope this terrible misunderstanding will be forgotten and we can continue to communicate with each other in the love of Christ. Have a blessed day. :)

Jema,

You write about,"Israel is one nation . So in the old testament when God talks about Israel , He isn't just talking about physical Israel , the Jews , He's talking about us Christians also that have been grafted in."

When God talks about Israel he speaks about Christians as well. "That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon./And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. "(1 Ki.9:2-3) When the Spirit writes,'perpetually' or forever it is with reference to the Son. In the night vision of Daniel, we have God giving one like unto the Son of man, "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Dan.7:13-14). Before the worlds began this everlasting kingdom has been given to the Son. Psalm 2 refers to the decree and his dominion.

However 'the Christians have been grated is not about the true Vine Christ was talking about. Olive tree is not vine. One is earthy and the other is heavenly. St Paul is talking about olive tree planted by God from which Israel has been broken off and 'wild olives' are graffed in. It is more appropriate in terms of grafting to think in terms of the king's dream where iron and miry clay try to fit with each other.

Another point to mention is the lost sheep of Israel they would have none of Jesus Christ. So the Spirit introduces Seventy other disciples ( Luke 10) there is no mention of Israel for a reason. They were cast off. Luke 10 refers to 'After these thing' He is referring to the kingdom of God. "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (9:62)

Thanks so much for your replies to me , I have enjoyed reading them and appreciate your time and energy . One thing I would say is that not all the Jews rejected Jesus , the common people heard him gladly and the first Christians were of course , Jewish people . Thanks again , I always enjoy your posts .

Jema,

From the discussion let me conclude by saying that God called us before the worlds began .

1. God's Will is complete

and the cloud of witnesses is a visible manifestation of the will of God. God's will would never need correction. But one third of the stars falling of applies believers who either received the Son and who shall abide in him by faith or rejected him. Three is a Command number to indicate the Son.

All the blessings of God continue from the sixth day. It is unstoppable. So when a voice from heaven announces,"Behold the tabernacle of God is among men" it is the body the Bride and it is descending to the mid-air. Jerusalem and Israel as political entities are finished. They are cast off as reprobate silver. (Re.21:3) God's Will is fulfilled by the Son. All those who were broken off were determined by their response to Christ Jesus.

2. Trees of righteousness is different than the Olive tree (Ro.11)

God blessed Abraham accordingly. "All families in earth do not mean Israel exclusively. (Ge.12:3) Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness. Faith is the DNA that Israel did not show. Their rejection brings the Gentiles to the fore.

St Paul talks about grafting. It is about physical and not of the true Vine that Jesus Christ represents.

3. There is only one foundation for the Church

Wild olive branches carry Babylon, Medeo- Persia Rome. With the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD the miry clay refers to the Christian church founded on a pagan foundation, All the heresies that are being aired in this forum owe to the confusion. Miry clay is not of the body of Christ.

John 15:1-5 "true Vine" "Without me you can do nothing" This is addressed to miry clay who say they are Christians but rejecting the Power of God and the doctrine of Christ. What do they end up a mongrel church so Israel or USA as nations play prominent role. There are only two nations: nation of saints in light or children of wrath.

Jema,

You make a point here "why did Christ need to fulfil the law by loving God and us to the extent that he laid down his life , as God asked him to , for our sakes ? This makes me think that Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses for the benefit of the children of Israel , for their salvation."

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the mankind. So Israel is included. He fulfilled the Law of Moses as well. Thus after healing the leper he said,"but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." (Matt.8:4). After the multiplying loaves and fishes we read so many baskets of broken bread were gathered. 12 and seven baskets were testimony to his Father of the Gospel for which his body as the Word become flesh and as testimony to the Word. Number Seven explains fulfillment and his origin as the Lord from heaven. (Satan has Seven heads and seven crowns; so has the beast as the son of perdition the same number Re.12:3;13:1- Seven indicates his origin as fallen angel). Humanity of Jesus demanded testimony to his Father in heaven while his human parent observed the Law of Moses concerning his birth.

God of Israel applies only to the nation of Israel while we are adopted into the Fellowship of God with Man for which both Gentile and Israel are included. So no exclusivity exists for Israel per se. Faith in both cases determine the DNA of parentage. Israel must pass the paternity test as any other. God of all mercies apply to man. Gospel of John speaks of the Law of Moses; alongside he adds, Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ which explains a different approach for us. Law of Moses are done away with for good.

Good Morning Jema,

It is good for you to be encouraging to Momsage.

I do not think Giannis, myself, or anyone else on this forum was being aggressive to Momsage nor where we trying to promote our selves, our scholarship, or our superiority. If that is what you get from our postings, I must say that you are reading more into what has been presented than what we said or meant. Also, speaking for myself, I like you, considering you a wonderful sister in Christ that God has blessed me with. I am sure others here think the same. So be assured that you are loved and cherished on this forum.

As for me, I try to read almost all of what is posted on this forum because I respect everyone's ideas, that they took the time to post, and that they are brethren. I read most posts because I can learn from others, be made to ponder a topic and then explore it more deeply myself, add my view to the discussion. I can answer a question and I can know prayer requests so I can have the privilege to pray for the need expressed. Yet, each person is free to decide how they participate on this forum and I respect that as well.

So, may you have peace today. May you be encouraged and know that you are appreciated here and loved for who you are in Christ as we all should be. It saddens me to know that you think that some of us do not like you. I hope that God will assure you of your love and acceptance here, especially by those of us who post here. Have a blessed day.

Hello Jema

I understand your point to Momsage. We all have the tendency to defend people who may seem weak to our eyes (in knowledge or anything else) and get bullyied by others. But here this is not a case of bullying. It is a matter of truth. It is not adequate for one to sit home and read their Bible, God doesn't work like that. That is why He gave the ministries to the church ( Ephesians 4:11), one of them is the teacher, also the Pastor. If we could just stay away from a congregation and read our Bibles and learn everything, God wouldn't give those ministries. But God's work is mainly within the church, not outside it, and we need teachers and people who know a bit more than we do, even history.

I don't claim I am a teacher, I am not. But some things I know, as well as other brothers and sisters, may help somebody to see clearer, or even me. So we put forward what we know, and if the other person has something to say, let them say it. We don't reject somebody's believes without hearing them first. If I have nothing to say to defend my position then this becomes obvious to others. If I don't know much I must either be ready to learn from others otherwise why do I get into a discussion? Is all that wrong? Sorry you are bothered, it is true that sometimes we may seem aggresive but our aim is not to insult the other person but to show what we know it is true. GBU

May I also say that , when a group of people gang up on a person who they perceive ( rightly or wrongly ) to be weaker than them , that is the very definition of bullying .

Dear Jema,

You are conflating your perception of what you think is our view of Momsage with what we think. We do not think of her as weaker nor do are any of us intending to "pile on" her. This is not bullying. It is discussing with differing viewpoints. Others who think like Momsage are welcome to join our discussion. We are not singling her out in any way as a bully does, nor are we intentionally targeting her for mistreatment here. That has not occurred.

I can see you are very sensitive to people on this forum who seem weak or the underdog in a discussion in your eyes. I appreciate your compassion. But to call any of us bullies, aggressive, or invective in our posts to her is simply name-calling. You are assuming to know our motives and assume that we are attempting to bully or belittle her. We are definitely not intending this at all. So, please, let's be gracious to one another even as we discuss topics amongst one another. Our aim is to uplift, give thoughts to consider, and to express ideas that someone's original post prompts us to respond to.

I understand your point totally . I believe that we Christians should cherish and nourish each other , we can't do that if we have pushed someone away by using invective and aggressive (by your own admission ) language . We should never belittle each other or make each other feel inferior , either deliberately or accidentally . Some times people disappear from this site without any good bye , do we ever wonder why ? Do we ever consider that we , and I include myself , may have pushed some one away ? We will all have to answer to our Lord for the way we speak to each other , that's a very scary thought to me , I think it should be so to all of us .

Bullying continued: words that intimidate, tease, is ongoing and purposely targeted at a specific person; misuse of power in a relationship

Jema, since you did use these words to describe those of us who responded to Momsage, please show us. For me, to call us out using these words when we our words were not invective, aggressive, nor bullying is slander.

I am not posting this to bother you nor to put you down, but to reveal what the words you used truly mean. i want to own my own words if they are invective, aggressive, or bullying words. So I am open for your correction with specifics.

I love you dearly, Jema, and I do not want to hurt your feelings or do any damage to our friendship here, since I value you and our relationship. I always look forward to hearing from you.

I don't believe that I have to explain myself to you as none of my posts were sent to you . I used the word aggressive in a post to Giannis because he used it first to me . My other post about the definition of bullying was , as you can see , aimed at no one in particular . As was my question about Mark Ch 9 V 33-42 and Matthew Ch 18 V 1-6 . I feel this site to be a congregation . When I am in my physical congregation , I am very respectful to my elders , I speak to them with kindness and patience . I always try on here to speak to people as if we were face to face in church . That's because I remember that where two or three are gathered together in his name , then Christ is in the midst of us . Has Momsage posted again ? I haven't checked . If not , there goes another member of this congregation .

Jema,

Thank you for getting back to me. If you were truly only speaking to Giannis in your post about language that is invective, aggressive, or bullying, then I am sorry I chimed in. If you were speaking generally to all on this site, then it is appropriate for me to address the words you used to identify the character of speech used in this discussion with Momsage or other discourse.

I was concerned that perhaps I had said something that you thought was like these three words you mentioned and so I wanted to share the definition here so that if I had spoken wrongly, you could tell me what wording I used that would qualify such characterization according to the definitions I found for the words invective, aggressive, and bullying.

Like you, I do not want any of us to speak this way. And, like you, I think of this forum as a fellowship in which we should speak to each other as we would if in person and discussing a biblical topic with differing viewpoints.

Jema, you do not need to respond back to me if you do not wish to do so. I understand. I just wanted you to know that I thought you were speaking about the wording Giannis and I were using in discoursing with Momsage and would want to know what I may have said that was offensive to her or to you. Be at peace with me here today. we are sisters. It would be good if we take the time now and then to complement one another and encourage each other with our words. We can express our love and genuine care for each other more than we may have in the past. My hope is that we build bridges towards one another, and continue to pray for one another often, as I do for you. We can tell each other how what one of use has said has uplifted us, helped us, and made us grow closer to the Lord.

All of us here are journeying towards the same goal, same heavenly country (as Abraham), to the same inheritance of the saints, to the same eternal bliss with God, to the most awesome, inspiring, beautiful, satisfying, unsurpassed life