To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I (Paul) forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Doesn't the above remind us of the discussion Peter had with Jesus:
Matthew 16:19,
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Also when Jesus appeared to his disciples after His resurrection?
John 20:21-23,
"21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
We, the chuech, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.
Here's my take on "binding and loosing. Matthew 16:19 says, "and I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven:" Here it's singular. In Chapter 18 it's plural, so it's not just Peter, but all of them!
Keys is a Hebrew symbol of authority. A person that had the keys was in charge. He says I'll give you the keys, the authority. We know keys unlock things for entrance.
Literal translation of Matthew 16:19:
"And whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall (have been) bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall (have been) loosed in heaven."
The Perfect Tense verbs in the Greek text tell me that Jesus is not giving them or the church the authority to go around binding and loosing. In Chapter 18, Matthew tells us that it has do with sin.
In 1 John 3:8, the word "loosed" is used for how Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
When a person gets saved, they are loosed from Satan. So the church has authority to either bind someone to their sins or loose them from their sins. What gives us that authority? It's something that has already been established in heaven.
Thou shalt bind that which has been bound already in heaven. It's a condition. And thou shall loose on earth things that shall have been loosed in heaven already. The church is here to declare that which has already been determined in heaven. We're only proclaimers!
What right do I have to tell anybody that they need to receive Christ and His death for them on the cross to be saved? I have the authority to tell people that we've got the key. We (Christians) have got the key that unlocks the door. His name is Jesus!
If you receive Him, I have the authority to tell you that you have been loosed from your sins. If you refuse Him, I have the authority to tell you that if you continue to reject Him throughout your whole life, you'll be bound to your sins and you will die in your sins.
I guess all three of us have a different understanding of those verses. But to be honest I will keep this topic open in my mind. I think I need. a bit more studying and understanding.
Before I turn in, here's one I meant to ask you about.
You gave your interpretation on John 20:21-23. and paralleled it with Matthew 16:19.
Here's how it went.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.,
You interpreted this passage of scripture as the following;
( We, the church, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.)
Giannis we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is already loosed in Heaven.
4,5) - "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.
I don't believe Paul is talking about condemnation as to one's salvation.
He's not talking about forgiveness of sins. He's talking about excommunicating this person.
The Corinthians was a proud church and continuing on as if there was nothing wrong. Delivering him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh would be his just punishment.
This is chastening not condemning.
( that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.)
This would cause him to repent, I will come to that later.
As we read on in the following verses we see where Paul urges them to not keep company with evil doers of the world.
He is now writing them to not keep company with any man that is called a brother that's an evil doer.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. ( 1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
Back to the evil doer in question. I believe here in 2 Corinthians 2:2-11 we have the account where this guy repented from those evil deeds.
Paul was coming down on the whole congregation for this cause.
I believe this account is in
2 Corinthians 7:8-12.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. ( That's Christ. )
We are commissioned to preach Christ. If a person reject Christ, that person shall be bound on earth as he or she is bound in heaven: and if that person receives Christ he or she shall loosed on earth as they are loosed in heaven.
I agree, perhaps others may like to share their thoughts.
Can I know what you think the explanation of those verses may be? Whay does it mean that Paul or the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose, and to remit and retain?
Here's the scripture we have in question and how it reads.
John 20:21-23.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Here we have another one of those passages that has caused a lot of confusion.
I will share my thoughts on these verses.
Previously I stated we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is ALREADY loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I would like to attempt to give more clarity on this.
One of the few translations that reflect key Greek nuances reads as follows
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" The word forgiven is in the perfect tense. NASB.
In verse 22 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holyspirit and he sent them out. (After Pentecost)
By this power that they didn't have before, the apostles would be able to make "SPIRIT-LED SENTENCING" AFTER PRESENTING THE GOSPEL.
They would be led or inspired to either pardon or bound according to what has ALREADY been pardoned or bound by God.
I believe we are able to sound the horn of salvation we are not able to make the decision for salvation.
Back to the discussion we were having. My thoughts about that and what I have been tought are:
In Matthew 16:19 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gives the apostles the right to forgive sins. So what does that mean? That they can take God's right to forgive or not? Well this doesn't sound right, does it?
I will go to that incident in Corinth whre a brother was having an affair with his father's wife. Paul suggests the members of that church to ( 1 Cor 5:4-5) " 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
A similar case is described in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the case that a brother sins to another brother and dispite the church telling him to repent he wouldn't repent, so Jesus said "17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The above are cases that the church has the right to bind and free, forgive or not. The right of the church to exlude somebody from the congregation and deliver him to satan.
But a question may arise. What if the church is wrong and the specific brother is right. We know from history that many churches took advantage of those verses and exluded believers for all sort of reasons, even political reasons. I firmly believe that in such cases God doesn't pay any attention to such decisions, actualy He is the one who forgives or not.
But I would also like others to comment on those verse and see what they believe.
I will try to give an explanation to those verses but not now brother, I don't have much free time before the weekend. It is actually a difficult topic with many giving different interpretations. So we will talk about it later. GBU
About your other question I will answer you tomorrow brother. It is 2:30 after midnight here and time to go to bed. So we will talk again tomorrow. GBU
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I (Paul) forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Doesn't the above remind us of the discussion Peter had with Jesus:
Matthew 16:19,
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Also when Jesus appeared to his disciples after His resurrection?
John 20:21-23,
"21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
We, the chuech, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.
Here's my take on "binding and loosing. Matthew 16:19 says, "and I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven:" Here it's singular. In Chapter 18 it's plural, so it's not just Peter, but all of them!
Keys is a Hebrew symbol of authority. A person that had the keys was in charge. He says I'll give you the keys, the authority. We know keys unlock things for entrance.
Literal translation of Matthew 16:19:
"And whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall (have been) bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall (have been) loosed in heaven."
The Perfect Tense verbs in the Greek text tell me that Jesus is not giving them or the church the authority to go around binding and loosing. In Chapter 18, Matthew tells us that it has do with sin.
In 1 John 3:8, the word "loosed" is used for how Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
When a person gets saved, they are loosed from Satan. So the church has authority to either bind someone to their sins or loose them from their sins. What gives us that authority? It's something that has already been established in heaven.
Thou shalt bind that which has been bound already in heaven. It's a condition. And thou shall loose on earth things that shall have been loosed in heaven already. The church is here to declare that which has already been determined in heaven. We're only proclaimers!
What right do I have to tell anybody that they need to receive Christ and His death for them on the cross to be saved? I have the authority to tell people that we've got the key. We (Christians) have got the key that unlocks the door. His name is Jesus!
If you receive Him, I have the authority to tell you that you have been loosed from your sins. If you refuse Him, I have the authority to tell you that if you continue to reject Him throughout your whole life, you'll be bound to your sins and you will die in your sins.
Blessings to you both!!!
Thanks for your replies
I guess all three of us have a different understanding of those verses. But to be honest I will keep this topic open in my mind. I think I need. a bit more studying and understanding.
Blessings to both.
God bless.
Before I turn in, here's one I meant to ask you about.
You gave your interpretation on John 20:21-23. and paralleled it with Matthew 16:19.
Here's how it went.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.,
You interpreted this passage of scripture as the following;
( We, the church, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.)
Giannis we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is already loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
God bless and Goodnight.
1 Corinthians 5:4-5 is the account
Here is how I understand what we are discussing.
4,5) - "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.
I don't believe Paul is talking about condemnation as to one's salvation.
He's not talking about forgiveness of sins. He's talking about excommunicating this person.
The Corinthians was a proud church and continuing on as if there was nothing wrong. Delivering him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh would be his just punishment.
This is chastening not condemning.
( that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.)
This would cause him to repent, I will come to that later.
As we read on in the following verses we see where Paul urges them to not keep company with evil doers of the world.
He is now writing them to not keep company with any man that is called a brother that's an evil doer.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. ( 1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
Back to the evil doer in question. I believe here in 2 Corinthians 2:2-11 we have the account where this guy repented from those evil deeds.
Paul was coming down on the whole congregation for this cause.
I believe this account is in
2 Corinthians 7:8-12.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. ( That's Christ. )
We are commissioned to preach Christ. If a person reject Christ, that person shall be bound on earth as he or she is bound in heaven: and if that person receives Christ he or she shall loosed on earth as they are loosed in heaven.
I agree, perhaps others may like to share their thoughts.
Thanks and God bless
Can I know what you think the explanation of those verses may be? Whay does it mean that Paul or the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose, and to remit and retain?
Thanks for your patience.
Here's the scripture we have in question and how it reads.
John 20:21-23.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Here we have another one of those passages that has caused a lot of confusion.
I will share my thoughts on these verses.
Previously I stated we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is ALREADY loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I would like to attempt to give more clarity on this.
One of the few translations that reflect key Greek nuances reads as follows
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" The word forgiven is in the perfect tense. NASB.
In verse 22 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holyspirit and he sent them out. (After Pentecost)
By this power that they didn't have before, the apostles would be able to make "SPIRIT-LED SENTENCING" AFTER PRESENTING THE GOSPEL.
They would be led or inspired to either pardon or bound according to what has ALREADY been pardoned or bound by God.
I believe we are able to sound the horn of salvation we are not able to make the decision for salvation.
I am not sure about the translations
nevertheless that's the way I see those verses.
Thanks and God bless.
Back to the discussion we were having. My thoughts about that and what I have been tought are:
In Matthew 16:19 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gives the apostles the right to forgive sins. So what does that mean? That they can take God's right to forgive or not? Well this doesn't sound right, does it?
I will go to that incident in Corinth whre a brother was having an affair with his father's wife. Paul suggests the members of that church to ( 1 Cor 5:4-5) " 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
A similar case is described in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the case that a brother sins to another brother and dispite the church telling him to repent he wouldn't repent, so Jesus said "17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The above are cases that the church has the right to bind and free, forgive or not. The right of the church to exlude somebody from the congregation and deliver him to satan.
But a question may arise. What if the church is wrong and the specific brother is right. We know from history that many churches took advantage of those verses and exluded believers for all sort of reasons, even political reasons. I firmly believe that in such cases God doesn't pay any attention to such decisions, actualy He is the one who forgives or not.
But I would also like others to comment on those verse and see what they believe.
Have a blessed week.
I would like to share my thoughts on this but I will be "tied up" for the next few hours. Perhaps tomorrow sometime, if not tonight.
Blessings to the both of you!
I will try to give an explanation to those verses but not now brother, I don't have much free time before the weekend. It is actually a difficult topic with many giving different interpretations. So we will talk about it later. GBU
Sorry Brother but I haven't visited the site at all this weekend.
I've been on a project here at home and it needed my full attention so I received a notice on my email but haven't read them until now.
Please bare with me in my response as I work them in while at work.
God bless.
About your other question I will answer you tomorrow brother. It is 2:30 after midnight here and time to go to bed. So we will talk again tomorrow. GBU
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