"When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding, this is literal...In the mid-500 AD, there was when the sun and moon were darkened which caused famine and plagues that was caused by volcanic eruptions... , meteorites, or something else it will be a sign before Jesus's second coming... in Joseph's dream, he does see the sun, moon, and stars, my understanding of this is a representation of Israel and the woman who had the man child, Jesus, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron we see in Rev.12:1"
In my view you need to meditate more deeply the Word of GOD, unfortunately your description above is from a human perspective,a stumble,not from GOD's perspective.Rev.12:1-There appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the Sun, and the MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Here JESUS is not referring unto them which received Him not, and killed Him, quite the contrary, He is referring to His true Church in the world, He is the Sun, the Greater Light, the Light that came to the world,and it is He who clothes the woman with His Light.And under her feet who gives her support is the Holy Spirit sent by JESUS here- John 15:26 and 16:7-15-take a look. And the twelve stars of her crown are the twelve APOSTLES of our Lord JESUS,the Sun of Justice-Mal.4:2.
On the other hand,"When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding,this's literal"according your human imagination What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, self-executing or self-executable: And the Word is revealing that a STAR fall from heaven( Isaiah 14:12-15)unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit,as the smoke of a great furnace;and the SUN and air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
I did not see your reply, some are not going to my Email for some reason.
I have heard interpretations of who the woman is, Israel, the Church, and some say, Mary.
Rev. 12:1-4
The word wonder Greek semeion, means something extraordinary, or miraculous, mostly translated sign. Sign with a meaning of divine power or purpose made known. Sometimes the word is used to denote a sign of future things these wonders are in heaven, so it is a vision John was shown.
We know the dragon is Satan because scripture says so and most would agree the man child is Jesus the one who will rule all nations with a rod of iron, Psalms 2:9, Revelation 2,12 and 19. The scripture is clear this starts before Jesus was born, the dragon was going to devour the child as soon as it was born. We see this effort of Satan when King Herod ordered not only the killing of all the children in Bethlehem but on all the coasts, from two years old and under.
Rev. 12:5-6 The woman flees to a wilderness prepared by God to be there for 1260 days. This is after the ascension of Jesus, not just after, but in the future. As for the Church is the woman; when the dragon was standing in front of her, Jesus was not yet born, the Church was formed after he was born, the Church did not birth Jesus, the Church is His body.
The woman cannot be Mary, even though she was the mother of Jesus, we are not of the seed of Mary as we see in verse 17, "the remnant of her seed". So, this leaves the third choice, which is Israel. If we look back at Genesis 37:9-10, we see a pretty good picture of this woman.
Israel plays a prominent role in the end-time prophecies of the Bible. Israel will endure into the end times and play a primary part in God's plan for the final days. There are unfulfilled unconditional covenants God made with Israel. "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". The first woe is future.
You worked hard above to make the Word of GOD to fit your theory, but actually you've fallen into contradictions.There are lies mixed with the Word of GOD, unfortunately.
First, Revelation was written around 65 years after JESUS' ascension. GOD gave unto Him the sealed book to break the seven seals and showing unto His servants things which should shortly come to pass in future times, so JESUS meant the things should happen exclusively in future times.
Second, don't you perceive or at least even in last case to think that the theory you have learned linking the BIRTH of JESUS to the sealed book of GOD with seven seals, which GOD gave to JESUS to broke them only and only 65 years after His ascention, it is A RIDICULOUS and false and devilish THEORY? There are many inventions interpretatives. Be careful.
'Ronald' SAID: (between quotation)
1- "We know the dragon is Satan because scripture says":
RIGHT, the Scripture is the Truth. But we have an interesting detail to analyze: in this current time of Apocalypse the Dragon has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL. Notice that when JESUS was born, the Dragon still had not this body as a whole, understand? To say the man child is JESUS, it is fake.
'Ronald' SAID: (between quotation)
2 - "The scripture is clear this STARTS BEFORE Jesus was born"
(FAKE, Scripture refers not to JESUS. In fact, the man child is another person,not JESUS.
3- "the dragon was going to devour the child as soon as it was born."
(RIGHT, but you believed in lie, the mother of the man child, who you imagine to be JESUS in this time of Apocalypse, she is not Mary,and JESUS would not have two mothers, for sure).
4- "We see this effort of Satan when King Herod ordered not only the killing of all the children in Bethlehem".
(Herod didn't know JESUS already was in Egypt, but the red Dragon knew that JESUS was not in Israel.What Satan could do was to kill all the children in Bethlehem, the place where JESUS born by prophecy- Micah 5:2.Take a look
I have read your reply to me, and I have been in prayer on whether I should respond, and as far as to debate what you have posted I will not. To be accused of portraying a lie by mixing lies in the word of God and presenting a ridiculous, false, and devilish theory.
Did you feel good when you wrote that, did you feel superior? We are to love and support and help each other grow.
A prideful spirit boasting self-wisdom to belittle someone you will one day find you are wrong. This is my last reply to you I will not respond.
I am sorry I should have proofread that better. It should have been Revelation 2:27Revelation 12:5 and Revelation 19:15, these are verses that show the man child the woman birthed is Jesus That He will reign and rule with a rod of iron.
I am also so sorry in telling you that you are completely wrong.
Revelation 19:15KJV speaks of the one from whom the own JESUS said he has a NAME that no MAN knew, EXCEPT he himself".
Yes, EXCEPT himself, so you are twisting the own word of JESUS who testified about this one that you call as being him JESUS, erroneously.
For what do you contradict JESUS and get preaching saying the NAME of this one is JESUS?
Actually he is only likeness JESUS- Revelation 1:13-,but he is not JESUS Himself, no,absolutely. And JESUS said that this one doth Judge and make WAR, in fact he is an ambassador of the Lord- Jeremiah 49:14 and Obadiah 1:1KJV- and he bears the insignia of JESUS Himself on his garments as an ambassador of the King Of kings, and Lord Of the lords, according prophecies he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a NAME,yes, a NAME written,that is King Of Kings, and Lord Of Lords.
It is he who was with Moses in flame of fire in the Mount Sina in the name of GOD Almighty in the OT, saying to be the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob- Acts 7:32-33. Take a look. And he was with Moses until his death, and after appeared to Joshua,saying: Joshua 5:13-15
13Joshua was by Jericho,he lifted up his eyes and looked,and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his Sword drawn in his hand:and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him,Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said,Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come.And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua,Loose thy shoe from off thy foot;for the place whereon thou standest is holy.And Joshua did so.
Balaam also saw this one of the Lord standing in the way, and his Sword drawn in his hand,saying:behold,I went out to withstand thee,because thy way is perverse before me.
Be careful so, what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD
It pretty much says that immediately after the tribulation, the sun will go darkened and the moon shall not give her life and the stars shall fall from heaven.
So, it almost sounds like the white throne will take place before 1000 years?
Otherwise, I am missed understanding 1000 years millennium, we will not need the sun to shine on the Earth?
I understand the new heavens light will come from God.
The great tribulation we see in Matt. 24:21 and Rev. 7:14 is caused by the beast that arises that many call the antichrist, Rev. 13. The events we see happen in Matt. 24:29 is just before Jesus's second coming. These are signs, we are not told how long the sun and moon will be dark but this is not permanent they will shine again during the millennium.
When Jesus returns there is the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, then the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire and Satan is locked up in the bottomless pit. Then Jesus will set up His kingdom and the 1000 years start, and Jesus and those in the first resurrection will reign over the earth for these 1000 years.
After the 1000 years, Satan will be let out of the pit, then the last battle, this when Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Then the white throne will come down from heaven and judgment is given to the rest of the dead, then God creates a new heaven and new earth. This is when there will not be a sun or moon to light the earth because God and the Lamb will be the light.
Bible study is a wonderful lifetime journey in the word of God. When we pick up God's word, we should pray for the Holy Spirit to shine a light that lights up our understanding. Will it happen every time and will we understand all? No, but we will understand all we need and more. Patience is the key, patience is a gift from God, it is a quality or virtue of forbearance or endurance and with it, we can endure anything we face because it is God's timing, not ours. "let us run with patience the race that is set before us".
You state, the sun & the moon will not shine for a time;
Jesus is not literal speaking of sun, moon & the stars
Joseph dreams, Genesis 37:9 that the sun & the moon & the stars bow down & paid homage to him
Jacob interprets it, Genesis 37:10-12 representing him the sun, his mother the moon & his brothers the stars.
Rev 21:23 the Light represents the glory of the knowledge of God, that shines in the heart.
there is no more need of the light from mankind, God now speaks to us through His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, in which all things consist & have their being, that He, Christ might have the preeminence above all created things.
Friends, I ask you to consider all these Scriptures in the Light, which the Spirit gives to us in the Face of Jesus Christ.
When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding, this is literal. This is not something that has never been, it has happened in the past. In the mid-500 AD, there was when the sun and moon were darkened which caused famine and plagues that was caused by volcanic eruptions that are said to have killed one-third to one-half of the population in that area.
This will happen again whether it will be caused by volcanic eruptions, meteorites, or something else it will be a sign before Jesus's second coming. In Gen, 37:9, in Joseph's dream, he does see the sun, moon, and stars, my understanding of this is a representation of Israel and the woman who had the man child, Jesus, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron we see in Rev. 12:1.
The light is the Glory of God and the Lamb, the only begotten Son of God who came out from God from the days of eternity through Him all was created, the beginning of creation the first and the last. He hath preeminence over all because He conquered death by His resurrection and death is now under His authority and domain.
There are different understandings of the second coming of Jesus. Discussing these is good if it inspires each other to study each understanding with an open mind and heart. If we don't and cling to our view with an I am right and you are wrong mindset, we lose. We never know when our eyes will be opened, I know my understanding of some things has changed over the years. Scripture does not contradict Scripture we do.
Matt. 24Mark 13 and Luke 21 are covering what Jesus told 4 of the disciples on Mount Olive just before the Lord's Supper and His crucifixion. First I would like to say my understanding these are dual prophecies and all three should be studied. There are things we can see that were for the disciples and what they were going to face. We also see things that have not yet been fulfilled.
You wrote, "Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming". I am sorry, I do not understand your meaning if you could expand on that.
From what you've express in your open statement, it seems your understanding comes from a searching of collective consciences in their studying of the Scriptures, from the conceiving of one's own brain from the letter.
Friend.. please bear with me,
There's a surer Way, & that is to choose the better part Luke 10:39Luke 10:42
The Spirit who inspired the Scriptures, is alone the Opener of them, freely giving us their true import. 1Cor 2:13,14
For this He was sent John 16:7, John 16:13
His words are a certainty, a infallible foundation that we can bottom on or trust in.
I wasn't giving my opinion of these Scriptures, referencing Jesus own words with His disciples on the question they ask of Him, Matt 24:3 quoting His words several times in His disclosure to them, for in Him is Psalms 36:9
You've stated; "We also see things that have not yet been fulfilled" in a sense, yes, in a sense, no,
I'll explain; Jesus plainly states, 24:34 its clear He's referring to these end time events in a "present tense", many time to His disciples, They were fulfilled in them, & to all in their generation & every generation since, & will be fulfilled in the generations to come until Rev 11:15
You quote me: Christ words out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & belief concerning His 2nd coming, meaning this so call "rapture myth" The misunderstanding lies in who report will we believed,
Jesus gives His report of this present oracle here surrounding His 2nd coming. He says Matt 24:33 the door was open on the day of Pentecost, His kingdom came, the disciples became apostles, that day they were change in a twinkling of an eye. Its important to note they finally understood Jesus commendation to Mary, & chose the better part.
Jesus prayed in John 17:15, I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, John 17:20 including us. We all can be assured that Christ prayers are answered. Jesus accomplish many things for us in His sacrificial life, one is that we may fulfill the great commission of Genesis 1:26, in truth expanding it , on earth as it is in heaven.
Friend, Jesus has already return & that by His Spirit. John14:18 2Cor 3:171Cor 3:16Titus 2:11 a living personal experience in Spirit for each individual soul as His Spirit appears in everyone of us bringing us the words of salvation.
As far as your 2nd response concerning the sun, moon & the stars
It appears you maybe rejecting Light, that His Spirit has shine upon these Scriptures which are given to us, which also were fulfilled in their season.
Concerning these outward trauma, I agree, the Scripture gives plenty of examples of this, the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the rebellion of Dathan, etc; God makes use of His creation to discipline His creatures, noting that it like a last resort to Him, deriving from their inward rebellion, which all begins with a departure from the Truth/Light, that's known & manifested in them. Rom 1:19
Let's reverence the Light, the Anointing , John 1:9 the Spirit of Christ. John 6:63 the Spirit who speaks His words in our hearts.
The Holy Spirit is my only guide and teacher in my studies of God's word. I do not take other people's understanding and beliefs to conform to my study. If we do that what happens, is somebody writes something that sounds good and fits our mindset, not Christ, and then we find a verse or two that fits, and aha! That must be true, but it turns out not true.
The meaning was, this is a discussion site we should treat every discussion with love and respect, and if we address these discussions with an I am right you are wrong attitude how can anyone learn? The Holy Spirit works through us and if someone has a different meaning of a subject we can go to God's word and study and pray for the truth, we may be given a reply that both will grow.
In the other parts of your post, it is hard for me to respond, you reveal an allegorical, deeper spiritual meaning behind the scriptures, I understand the meaning but there is also a literal meaning. I know many things in the Bible must be taken in a deeper symbolic meaning. It is like hiking in a beautiful forest, with all the smells, sounds, and sites that seem to speak and overwhelm our souls.
We can get so engulfed in all the beauty, same as in the bible, I also have while reading it seen the beautiful deeper meaning and get so peaceful that it is almost like a dream. But it is like the trail in this beautiful forest, we are so overwhelmed with the beauty we trip over a literal stone and fall off a cliff.
This allegorical became a spiritual reality for Joseph & his family, & in time God wrought out Israel literal salvation through it.
We must Proverbs 3:5 for His Isa 55:8-11 & He will Isa 42:16 this is the Life of faith we're all invited too, were self effort & its wisdom from the letter is nothing. It's a picking up the cross & dying daily to that, that 1 Cor 1:29
This is our entrance through the door into putting on the mind of Christ, He sent His Holy Spirit to teach & guide us into all Truth & is not a lie, that we may know the things that are freely given unto us by God, that which the "Holy Spirit reveals" is a certainty, a infallible rule / foundation which a Christian can bottom on. Joseph & his family did not fall off a cliff, & neither will any that trusteth in Him.
Look at the fiery trial that tried Joseph faith, becoming more precious than gold & silver that perishes, though it was severely tried by fire, the praise, glory & honor he was given as God wrought out His word to him, as he remain faithful to his God, & sin not against Him, abiding in the Vine throughout all the hardship he faced, not knowing what was to befall him next in this strange land were he was sold as a slave. Then his reward for doing good betrayed, falsely accused & put into prison for it.
Did he have any books that he might read & study to receive a better understand of what God was up to, No.
He had learnt the practice of the ancients, "the better part' Psalm 46:10, sat still & waited in silent prayer, which truly is a cross to self, until God was please to arise, reveal Himself & comfort him in his afflictions, Psalms 12:5-7 strengthening his faith to endure, while working in him a character of godliness that's not to be repented of.
Joseph could not have come to his end, without the lessons God had taught him through this journey, which God was please to bring him through, thus enabling Joseph to fulfill God glorious plan. Meaning Joseph could no have the one without the experiencing the other, it was his preparation for the call that God had place on his life. This happens to all of us in our everyday ordinary experiences in life, which sometime are more riveting than others
In this stillness & quietness of soul, waiting upon the Lord he found Psalms 91:1 He was given the a understanding
1 John 5:20 He came to know Daniel 2:22,23
Ronald, that which gave you a sight of these things, is He that will lead you into the literal, spiritual experiential truth of them.
Matt 24:3 " the disciples asks, what shall be the sign of Thy coming & the end of the world?
Matt 24 Jesus explains to His disciples the signs of His coming
Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are with Him in present tense. Verily I say unto you!
Matt 24:4 & said unto them, let no man deceive you Matt 24:15 when ye shall see the abomination of desolation
Matt 24:23 then if any man say unto you, lo here is Christ. Matt 24:25 Behold I have told you Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you. Matt 24:33 when ye see all these things Matt 24:44 therefore be ye also ready
Matt 24:34,35
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled, Heaven & earth shall pass away but My word shall not pass away, This was the generation 2000 yrs ago that shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
Matt 16:28Mark 9:1 standing there with Him then, saw the Kingdom come in Power
Friends, Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming.
In Revelation 20, this is just after the battle of Armageddon when the beast and the false prophet, and their army of the ten kingdoms/nations are defeated and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit and the 1000 years of Jesus's reign over the earth. After 1000 years Satan is released and deceives the nations/world, and they went up and surrounded the city/Jerusalem and fire comes down from heaven and in my understanding burns up the entire earth.
Satan is then cast into the lake of fire, then the white throne and God who sits on it comes down and the earth and heaven that is today fled away. Then the final judgment where all the rest of the dead that was not in the first resurrection will be judged from the books that are written and who is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. Those whose name is in the Book of Life will go into eternity with those in the first resurrection.
Does it take place at the end of the thousand years after the devil is cast into the lake with the false prophet and the antichrist?
Thanks!
Greetings in Christ JESUS
You said above:
"When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding, this is literal...In the mid-500 AD, there was when the sun and moon were darkened which caused famine and plagues that was caused by volcanic eruptions... , meteorites, or something else it will be a sign before Jesus's second coming... in Joseph's dream, he does see the sun, moon, and stars, my understanding of this is a representation of Israel and the woman who had the man child, Jesus, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron we see in Rev.12:1"
In my view you need to meditate more deeply the Word of GOD, unfortunately your description above is from a human perspective,a stumble,not from GOD's perspective.Rev.12:1-There appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the Sun, and the MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Here JESUS is not referring unto them which received Him not, and killed Him, quite the contrary, He is referring to His true Church in the world, He is the Sun, the Greater Light, the Light that came to the world,and it is He who clothes the woman with His Light.And under her feet who gives her support is the Holy Spirit sent by JESUS here- John 15:26 and 16:7-15-take a look. And the twelve stars of her crown are the twelve APOSTLES of our Lord JESUS,the Sun of Justice-Mal.4:2.
On the other hand,"When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding,this's literal"according your human imagination What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, self-executing or self-executable: And the Word is revealing that a STAR fall from heaven( Isaiah 14:12-15)unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit,as the smoke of a great furnace;and the SUN and air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Get ready
I did not see your reply, some are not going to my Email for some reason.
I have heard interpretations of who the woman is, Israel, the Church, and some say, Mary.
Rev. 12:1-4
The word wonder Greek semeion, means something extraordinary, or miraculous, mostly translated sign. Sign with a meaning of divine power or purpose made known. Sometimes the word is used to denote a sign of future things these wonders are in heaven, so it is a vision John was shown.
We know the dragon is Satan because scripture says so and most would agree the man child is Jesus the one who will rule all nations with a rod of iron, Psalms 2:9, Revelation 2,12 and 19. The scripture is clear this starts before Jesus was born, the dragon was going to devour the child as soon as it was born. We see this effort of Satan when King Herod ordered not only the killing of all the children in Bethlehem but on all the coasts, from two years old and under.
Rev. 12:5-6 The woman flees to a wilderness prepared by God to be there for 1260 days. This is after the ascension of Jesus, not just after, but in the future. As for the Church is the woman; when the dragon was standing in front of her, Jesus was not yet born, the Church was formed after he was born, the Church did not birth Jesus, the Church is His body.
The woman cannot be Mary, even though she was the mother of Jesus, we are not of the seed of Mary as we see in verse 17, "the remnant of her seed". So, this leaves the third choice, which is Israel. If we look back at Genesis 37:9-10, we see a pretty good picture of this woman.
Israel plays a prominent role in the end-time prophecies of the Bible. Israel will endure into the end times and play a primary part in God's plan for the final days. There are unfulfilled unconditional covenants God made with Israel. "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". The first woe is future.
God bless,
RLW
First, Revelation was written around 65 years after JESUS' ascension. GOD gave unto Him the sealed book to break the seven seals and showing unto His servants things which should shortly come to pass in future times, so JESUS meant the things should happen exclusively in future times.
Second, don't you perceive or at least even in last case to think that the theory you have learned linking the BIRTH of JESUS to the sealed book of GOD with seven seals, which GOD gave to JESUS to broke them only and only 65 years after His ascention, it is A RIDICULOUS and false and devilish THEORY? There are many inventions interpretatives. Be careful.
'Ronald' SAID: (between quotation)
1- "We know the dragon is Satan because scripture says":
RIGHT, the Scripture is the Truth. But we have an interesting detail to analyze: in this current time of Apocalypse the Dragon has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL. Notice that when JESUS was born, the Dragon still had not this body as a whole, understand? To say the man child is JESUS, it is fake.
'Ronald' SAID: (between quotation)
2 - "The scripture is clear this STARTS BEFORE Jesus was born"
(FAKE, Scripture refers not to JESUS. In fact, the man child is another person,not JESUS.
3- "the dragon was going to devour the child as soon as it was born."
(RIGHT, but you believed in lie, the mother of the man child, who you imagine to be JESUS in this time of Apocalypse, she is not Mary,and JESUS would not have two mothers, for sure).
4- "We see this effort of Satan when King Herod ordered not only the killing of all the children in Bethlehem".
(Herod didn't know JESUS already was in Egypt, but the red Dragon knew that JESUS was not in Israel.What Satan could do was to kill all the children in Bethlehem, the place where JESUS born by prophecy- Micah 5:2.Take a look
I have read your reply to me, and I have been in prayer on whether I should respond, and as far as to debate what you have posted I will not. To be accused of portraying a lie by mixing lies in the word of God and presenting a ridiculous, false, and devilish theory.
Did you feel good when you wrote that, did you feel superior? We are to love and support and help each other grow.
A prideful spirit boasting self-wisdom to belittle someone you will one day find you are wrong. This is my last reply to you I will not respond.
God bless,
RLW
Should be Revelation 12:27 And chap. 19.
Sorry about that
Sorry, there is not verse 27 in Revelation 12 as you cited.
I am sorry I should have proofread that better. It should have been Revelation 2:27 Revelation 12:5 and Revelation 19:15, these are verses that show the man child the woman birthed is Jesus That He will reign and rule with a rod of iron.
God bless,
RLW
I am also so sorry in telling you that you are completely wrong.
Revelation 19:15KJV speaks of the one from whom the own JESUS said he has a NAME that no MAN knew, EXCEPT he himself".
Yes, EXCEPT himself, so you are twisting the own word of JESUS who testified about this one that you call as being him JESUS, erroneously.
For what do you contradict JESUS and get preaching saying the NAME of this one is JESUS?
Actually he is only likeness JESUS- Revelation 1:13-,but he is not JESUS Himself, no,absolutely. And JESUS said that this one doth Judge and make WAR, in fact he is an ambassador of the Lord- Jeremiah 49:14 and Obadiah 1:1KJV- and he bears the insignia of JESUS Himself on his garments as an ambassador of the King Of kings, and Lord Of the lords, according prophecies he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a NAME,yes, a NAME written,that is King Of Kings, and Lord Of Lords.
It is he who was with Moses in flame of fire in the Mount Sina in the name of GOD Almighty in the OT, saying to be the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob- Acts 7:32-33. Take a look. And he was with Moses until his death, and after appeared to Joshua,saying: Joshua 5:13-15
13Joshua was by Jericho,he lifted up his eyes and looked,and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his Sword drawn in his hand:and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him,Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said,Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come.And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua,Loose thy shoe from off thy foot;for the place whereon thou standest is holy.And Joshua did so.
Balaam also saw this one of the Lord standing in the way, and his Sword drawn in his hand,saying:behold,I went out to withstand thee,because thy way is perverse before me.
Be careful so, what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD
In Matthews 24:29
It pretty much says that immediately after the tribulation, the sun will go darkened and the moon shall not give her life and the stars shall fall from heaven.
So, it almost sounds like the white throne will take place before 1000 years?
Otherwise, I am missed understanding 1000 years millennium, we will not need the sun to shine on the Earth?
I understand the new heavens light will come from God.
The great tribulation we see in Matt. 24:21 and Rev. 7:14 is caused by the beast that arises that many call the antichrist, Rev. 13. The events we see happen in Matt. 24:29 is just before Jesus's second coming. These are signs, we are not told how long the sun and moon will be dark but this is not permanent they will shine again during the millennium.
When Jesus returns there is the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, then the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire and Satan is locked up in the bottomless pit. Then Jesus will set up His kingdom and the 1000 years start, and Jesus and those in the first resurrection will reign over the earth for these 1000 years.
After the 1000 years, Satan will be let out of the pit, then the last battle, this when Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Then the white throne will come down from heaven and judgment is given to the rest of the dead, then God creates a new heaven and new earth. This is when there will not be a sun or moon to light the earth because God and the Lamb will be the light.
Bible study is a wonderful lifetime journey in the word of God. When we pick up God's word, we should pray for the Holy Spirit to shine a light that lights up our understanding. Will it happen every time and will we understand all? No, but we will understand all we need and more. Patience is the key, patience is a gift from God, it is a quality or virtue of forbearance or endurance and with it, we can endure anything we face because it is God's timing, not ours. "let us run with patience the race that is set before us".
God bless,
RLW
You state, the sun & the moon will not shine for a time;
Jesus is not literal speaking of sun, moon & the stars
Joseph dreams, Genesis 37:9 that the sun & the moon & the stars bow down & paid homage to him
Jacob interprets it, Genesis 37:10-12 representing him the sun, his mother the moon & his brothers the stars.
Rev 21:23 the Light represents the glory of the knowledge of God, that shines in the heart.
there is no more need of the light from mankind, God now speaks to us through His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, in which all things consist & have their being, that He, Christ might have the preeminence above all created things.
Friends, I ask you to consider all these Scriptures in the Light, which the Spirit gives to us in the Face of Jesus Christ.
In love & truth.
When the sun and the moon are darkened my understanding, this is literal. This is not something that has never been, it has happened in the past. In the mid-500 AD, there was when the sun and moon were darkened which caused famine and plagues that was caused by volcanic eruptions that are said to have killed one-third to one-half of the population in that area.
This will happen again whether it will be caused by volcanic eruptions, meteorites, or something else it will be a sign before Jesus's second coming. In Gen, 37:9, in Joseph's dream, he does see the sun, moon, and stars, my understanding of this is a representation of Israel and the woman who had the man child, Jesus, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron we see in Rev. 12:1.
The light is the Glory of God and the Lamb, the only begotten Son of God who came out from God from the days of eternity through Him all was created, the beginning of creation the first and the last. He hath preeminence over all because He conquered death by His resurrection and death is now under His authority and domain.
God bless,
RLW
There are different understandings of the second coming of Jesus. Discussing these is good if it inspires each other to study each understanding with an open mind and heart. If we don't and cling to our view with an I am right and you are wrong mindset, we lose. We never know when our eyes will be opened, I know my understanding of some things has changed over the years. Scripture does not contradict Scripture we do.
Matt. 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 are covering what Jesus told 4 of the disciples on Mount Olive just before the Lord's Supper and His crucifixion. First I would like to say my understanding these are dual prophecies and all three should be studied. There are things we can see that were for the disciples and what they were going to face. We also see things that have not yet been fulfilled.
You wrote, "Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming". I am sorry, I do not understand your meaning if you could expand on that.
God bless,
RLW
Hi Ronald
From what you've express in your open statement, it seems your understanding comes from a searching of collective consciences in their studying of the Scriptures, from the conceiving of one's own brain from the letter.
Friend.. please bear with me,
There's a surer Way, & that is to choose the better part Luke 10:39 Luke 10:42
The Spirit who inspired the Scriptures, is alone the Opener of them, freely giving us their true import. 1Cor 2:13,14
For this He was sent John 16:7, John 16:13
His words are a certainty, a infallible foundation that we can bottom on or trust in.
I wasn't giving my opinion of these Scriptures, referencing Jesus own words with His disciples on the question they ask of Him, Matt 24:3 quoting His words several times in His disclosure to them, for in Him is Psalms 36:9
You've stated; "We also see things that have not yet been fulfilled" in a sense, yes, in a sense, no,
I'll explain; Jesus plainly states, 24:34 its clear He's referring to these end time events in a "present tense", many time to His disciples, They were fulfilled in them, & to all in their generation & every generation since, & will be fulfilled in the generations to come until Rev 11:15
You quote me: Christ words out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & belief concerning His 2nd coming, meaning this so call "rapture myth" The misunderstanding lies in who report will we believed,
Jesus gives His report of this present oracle here surrounding His 2nd coming. He says Matt 24:33 the door was open on the day of Pentecost, His kingdom came, the disciples became apostles, that day they were change in a twinkling of an eye. Its important to note they finally understood Jesus commendation to Mary, & chose the better part.
Jesus prayed in John 17:15, I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, John 17:20 including us. We all can be assured that Christ prayers are answered. Jesus accomplish many things for us in His sacrificial life, one is that we may fulfill the great commission of Genesis 1:26, in truth expanding it , on earth as it is in heaven.
Friend, Jesus has already return & that by His Spirit. John14:18 2Cor 3:17 1Cor 3:16 Titus 2:11 a living personal experience in Spirit for each individual soul as His Spirit appears in everyone of us bringing us the words of salvation.
As far as your 2nd response concerning the sun, moon & the stars
It appears you maybe rejecting Light, that His Spirit has shine upon these Scriptures which are given to us, which also were fulfilled in their season.
Concerning these outward trauma, I agree, the Scripture gives plenty of examples of this, the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the rebellion of Dathan, etc; God makes use of His creation to discipline His creatures, noting that it like a last resort to Him, deriving from their inward rebellion, which all begins with a departure from the Truth/Light, that's known & manifested in them. Rom 1:19
Let's reverence the Light, the Anointing , John 1:9 the Spirit of Christ. John 6:63 the Spirit who speaks His words in our hearts.
In love & truth
The Holy Spirit is my only guide and teacher in my studies of God's word. I do not take other people's understanding and beliefs to conform to my study. If we do that what happens, is somebody writes something that sounds good and fits our mindset, not Christ, and then we find a verse or two that fits, and aha! That must be true, but it turns out not true.
The meaning was, this is a discussion site we should treat every discussion with love and respect, and if we address these discussions with an I am right you are wrong attitude how can anyone learn? The Holy Spirit works through us and if someone has a different meaning of a subject we can go to God's word and study and pray for the truth, we may be given a reply that both will grow.
In the other parts of your post, it is hard for me to respond, you reveal an allegorical, deeper spiritual meaning behind the scriptures, I understand the meaning but there is also a literal meaning. I know many things in the Bible must be taken in a deeper symbolic meaning. It is like hiking in a beautiful forest, with all the smells, sounds, and sites that seem to speak and overwhelm our souls.
We can get so engulfed in all the beauty, same as in the bible, I also have while reading it seen the beautiful deeper meaning and get so peaceful that it is almost like a dream. But it is like the trail in this beautiful forest, we are so overwhelmed with the beauty we trip over a literal stone and fall off a cliff.
In love, God bless,
RLW
Friend
This allegorical became a spiritual reality for Joseph & his family, & in time God wrought out Israel literal salvation through it.
We must Proverbs 3:5 for His Isa 55:8-11 & He will Isa 42:16 this is the Life of faith we're all invited too, were self effort & its wisdom from the letter is nothing. It's a picking up the cross & dying daily to that, that 1 Cor 1:29
This is our entrance through the door into putting on the mind of Christ, He sent His Holy Spirit to teach & guide us into all Truth & is not a lie, that we may know the things that are freely given unto us by God, that which the "Holy Spirit reveals" is a certainty, a infallible rule / foundation which a Christian can bottom on. Joseph & his family did not fall off a cliff, & neither will any that trusteth in Him.
Look at the fiery trial that tried Joseph faith, becoming more precious than gold & silver that perishes, though it was severely tried by fire, the praise, glory & honor he was given as God wrought out His word to him, as he remain faithful to his God, & sin not against Him, abiding in the Vine throughout all the hardship he faced, not knowing what was to befall him next in this strange land were he was sold as a slave. Then his reward for doing good betrayed, falsely accused & put into prison for it.
Did he have any books that he might read & study to receive a better understand of what God was up to, No.
He had learnt the practice of the ancients, "the better part' Psalm 46:10, sat still & waited in silent prayer, which truly is a cross to self, until God was please to arise, reveal Himself & comfort him in his afflictions, Psalms 12:5-7 strengthening his faith to endure, while working in him a character of godliness that's not to be repented of.
Joseph could not have come to his end, without the lessons God had taught him through this journey, which God was please to bring him through, thus enabling Joseph to fulfill God glorious plan. Meaning Joseph could no have the one without the experiencing the other, it was his preparation for the call that God had place on his life. This happens to all of us in our everyday ordinary experiences in life, which sometime are more riveting than others
In this stillness & quietness of soul, waiting upon the Lord he found Psalms 91:1 He was given the a understanding
1 John 5:20 He came to know Daniel 2:22,23
Ronald, that which gave you a sight of these things, is He that will lead you into the literal, spiritual experiential truth of them.
In love & truth
Thank you,
God bless,
RLW
Matt 24:3 " the disciples asks, what shall be the sign of Thy coming & the end of the world?
Matt 24 Jesus explains to His disciples the signs of His coming
Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are with Him in present tense. Verily I say unto you!
Matt 24:4 & said unto them, let no man deceive you Matt 24:15 when ye shall see the abomination of desolation
Matt 24:23 then if any man say unto you, lo here is Christ. Matt 24:25 Behold I have told you Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you. Matt 24:33 when ye see all these things Matt 24:44 therefore be ye also ready
Matt 24:34,35
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled, Heaven & earth shall pass away but My word shall not pass away, This was the generation 2000 yrs ago that shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
Matt 16:28 Mark 9:1 standing there with Him then, saw the Kingdom come in Power
Friends, Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming.
For the sake of your immortal soul, whom Jesus gave Himself for, don't continue to deceive yourselfs
In love & truth
Thanks!
I'm not sure that I understand the answer. I'm sorry, but sometimes a simple answer is better for me. I am little slow sometimes on understanding.
The Great White Throne judgment takes place before or after the millennium?
In Revelation 20, this is just after the battle of Armageddon when the beast and the false prophet, and their army of the ten kingdoms/nations are defeated and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit and the 1000 years of Jesus's reign over the earth. After 1000 years Satan is released and deceives the nations/world, and they went up and surrounded the city/Jerusalem and fire comes down from heaven and in my understanding burns up the entire earth.
Satan is then cast into the lake of fire, then the white throne and God who sits on it comes down and the earth and heaven that is today fled away. Then the final judgment where all the rest of the dead that was not in the first resurrection will be judged from the books that are written and who is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. Those whose name is in the Book of Life will go into eternity with those in the first resurrection.
This is my understanding I hope it helps.
God bless,
RLW
I wasn't sure if any scripture supported that.
You are correct, it is after Satan is cast into the lake of fire, you can find that in Revelation 20.
God bless,
RLW
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