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If we look at the time after Jesus was in the wilderness and began His public ministry; we see what begins as a few healings and public teachings in His hometown appear to rapidly grow with travel to surrounding areas where He cast out devils and did many healings. As late as Matthew 16:20 Jesus told to His Disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ. The same instruction is in the Gospels of Mark as well as Luke. Jesus would speak Parables; eventually as the ONLY method of explaining these hidden truths to the general public. ( Matthew 13:13). This shows how deep the concept of Predestination is shown 2 verses later in Matthew 13:15 when He explains because of hard hearts they will not be given information needed to be saved. We must come to Christ on His terms; and at His drawing or prompting ( John 6:37). This concept also shows that Christ never was seeking acclamation and didn't want to be set up as King on this earth before the time either; without understanding that He had to be the suffering Savior first. When a man asked Jesus to help him with unbelief ( Mark 9:24) we need to keep in mind that when on earth He was able to raise men from the dead; today we need to trust that He has power over death; hell and sin but we don't have any certainty that He will use a person to perform a healing through the power of the Spirit today. Nonetheless we should ask the Lord in prayer all things which we will apart from those things which are just for our own selfish desires; He ever intercedes for us according to God's will ( Heb. 7:25). Finally; Jesus knew that mere facts wouldn't save anyone; as evidenced in the rich man's pleas from Hades in Luke 16:31; and all other instances Jesus was harassed for healing on a Sabbath Day-they couldn't ever deny the miracles but accused Him of working on the Sabbath and blasphemy declaring that He was the "I AM" ( John 8:58).
I hope you don't mind if I respond to you. I do not think that Adam nor myself were twisting what David had posted. We were seeking clarity and for David to correct our misunderstanding of his statement.
I understand what you said about feeling that some people on here are not safe to interact with. Perhaps you feel that way about me or about Adam. I hope not, but if so, I ask that you give us grace and hopefully we can work together to improve our mutual regard for one another. I certainly never intend to misrepresent anyone on here, but may misunderstand what others present.
I do notice that you rarely respond to me, so I thought that I may be one of those you don't feel is safe to interact with. If so, I am sorry for that. I respect you and your ideas, just like I do for anyone else. Yet, there are times where we all feel the need to bring forward how we disagree with another's posting and speak what we believe to be true. And sometimes we do need to address obviously false beliefs. I don't think that David falls in this category often, so I did want to explore his thinking on this topic with him in hopes of gaining a better understanding of what he really wished to convey.
Jema, I would love to hear from you, but understand if you wish to refrain. Let's work towards peace and unity.
Thank you so much for replying to me and "clearing the air" so I can understand you better.
There are some here like you, who do not wish to enter into rigorous discussions, and there are some, like me, who do, not for the cause of being argumentative or to debate, but to engage in deep thoughts on topics that come up. Both approaches are fine and worthy of this forum. I, like you, love to give helpful answers to peoples' questions, to pray for those who request prayer (so glad for your good report from your doctor!) and for those who do not ask but I feel led to pray for, and hear and speak to lift people up. So, I think we have a lot in common, and we have some differences in personality, too, which is so normal. I always appreciate your postings and am glad that you, like me, have had a long time with the Lord and His words in Scripture.
Jema, I really do appreciate your response. Going forward will be much more comfortable for both of us!
I will try to explain my thinking to you more clearly. Just as the church is the body of Christ, having been placed in Him by the action of regeneration of the Holy Spirit and still is distinct from who Jesus is, we are not to worship the church, whether it is people who belong to Christ or a particular sect, or a particular form of participating in fellowship with one another and Christ. Jesus is the head of the Church and He alone is to be worshipped as regards to His body.
So it is with Scripture, which is the communication of God to man. The communication, words of Scripture, is not God. God is the author of the words, but the author and the words are not the same thing. One is the cause (God) and the other is the effect (words). We are not to worship the Bible, treating it like it is God in written form, because it is not. It is the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to communicate what God wants to reveal to humanity. We are to worship the One who speaks to us through the inspired words of the biblical writers. We are to respect and obey the Scriptures as well as hide them in our hearts as the treasure they are. But, we are not to pay homage to or place the Scriptures in a place of substitution for the true God.
David, it seems that you believe that the words of Scripture are Jesus Christ because He has the title of the Word of God in John 1. But, I think that there is a difference between this title of the Son of God and words He speaks or inspired to be written in Scripture. God is not an intellectual abstract idea like words are. He is the Living God who has created all things besides Himself. He speaks things into existence, but His words in Scripture are given power by God. Words (pural) do not have life or power in and of themselves. But God is the life and power behind everything that has authority over humans.].
David, I have not said that we are to worship Christ without the Bible. cont...
Continuing with the thought on deliverance; there are verses which state we are not to be hasty in laying on of hands with someone ( 1 Tim. 5:22). Obviously; the extended conversations with demons that are almost always on camera are not needed most of the time based on how Christ operated. It is often obvious this is for entertainment value; and certainly isn't helpful if someone is in need of deliverance to toy with the demons in them or keep them waiting. It is rare but not unheard of to see a person who is going through great grief be prayed for that is NOT possessed; or perhaps just oppressed.
If we look at the example of the parable of the seed and sower in Matthew 13:20 we see immediate joy at the Word without a root. Nonetheless we are to confess with our mouth AND believe in our heart that Christ is Lord; both mind and soul are involved. ( Romans 10:9). Since our heart is deceitful ( Jeremiah 17:9) above all things and desperately wicked; we need a new heart as Ezekiel 36:26 states. I have pointed out before that unless we realize that we are being delivered from an enmity with God we aren't going to be drawn toward Christ; we are going to shrink back and eventually fall away. ( Romans 8:7 as well as in many other passages!) BUT; as with anything else joy is the second attribute of good fruit that the Spirit MUST begin to place in our souls after love as the first ( Gal. 5:22). Note that the THIRD attribute is peace; so if we are truly saved we start to overcome fear; on the other hand there is no peace for the wicked. ( Isaiah 48:22; and other parts of Isaiah and Psalms; etc.)
Part of maturity in Christ is knowing the difference between spiritual fruit and our emotions. Seeing Paul's example of joy in extreme suffering certainly is a good example of this as well as Christ's love for us that He would suffer as He did to fulfill the Father's will.
Fellowship should balance mind and heart worship rightly
Our walk with Jesus is so important that we are to do so with ALL of our being. We should desire to have this well rounded relationship with our Lord and submit whole-heartedly and sober-mindedly, willing to imitate Christ, using our bodies to do what God wills, and using our strength and natural power to endure the work set before us or to face hardship and persecution.
This is a good topic to speak about. Thanks for bringing it up today.
With every subject; it seems there is always an extreme to avoid. In this case; we can compare what some call madness in certain churches claiming spiritual giftings which tend to stray from proper doctrinal teachings; and we of course can examine
the other end; those of a dull congregation steeped in scripture memory; correct doctrines and other issues but still like the Ephesian church have somehow ditched their first love.
Perhaps it is just me; but today it seems besides the obvious deviant maga churches (I shall leave it to the reader to figure out who they are) and the rather cold brainiac ones; as it were there is a third situation. It seems there are many exercising giftings particularly with street evangelism and deliverance ministries that have a pretty good handle on basic scriptures and can preach at least adequately. What is often MISSING; however is the concept of repentance needed to be saved and frequently these people stray from any commitment to church membership; not working with a local Body in their ventures. There has also been the error of Baptism needed for initial salvation.
What to make of this third category is perplexing in a way it seems. Perhaps it is deliberately utilized as a tactic so that it can draw more people in who expect such scriptures to be heard and are drawn in because of it. It seems that those who are supposedly delivered should have their confession of faith in place BEFORE baptism. It is important also to have testimony of the person afterwards. I can only speak for myself but having a video up showing deliverance isn't particularly something I would want up all over the internet. We certainly shouldn't go out of our way to film things as though signs and wonders need to get public recognition or those performing them.
I have found the element of these "deliverance" ministers asking others to pray for someone to be intriguing as it seems God may work that way.
It's not the greatest place; but I am thankful the people I know are making a difference.
Also if I didn't mention it VBS is set up and occurs this coming week the 10th to 14th. We had record turnout last year for us and I pray also this year as well as some new people from it coming to church.
BTW since you seem to be my biggest "fan" in regard to communication; any suggestions as to how to improve my postings would be appreciated. Clearly you go to far more detail than I with your systematic O.T. postings as of late. I like to think a plus in my stuff is a decent number of scriptural references but I tend to just take an idea and run from there; sometimes I may take a couple hours praying over it; but I would guess you spend days. I am trying to be wise screening those I shouldn't respond to and those who I may help as well as ones the Lord doesn't want me to respond to. Again; I am rather spur of the moment; having a lot of free time especially this summer-sometimes I need to pray more for myself or focus on the Great Commission.
There have been some interesting prophetic developments which I could discuss in re: to the Rapture soon. I also have seen an interesting Shroud of Turin piece which really seems to seal the deal. I am concerned if it is real that it holds more people accountable; almost afraid to share it.
Ideas?
Thanks for informing me about your new opportunities to reach others.
I will certainly pray about it. I will also pray about VBS as it will occur throughout the summer across the globe.
I am glad to read your posting. They are thought provoking. And you are giving me far too much credit for what I post. I am not a trained scholar on biblical matters but I read Scripture and think deeply about what I read. The Holy Spirit helps me to understand and explain His words to myself and to others. It helps for me to think out loud by writing out my thoughts about passages I read. That is how I came to this site, to read the KJV.
And when I found the discussion button at the bottom of the chapter pages, I read through the responses and began replying by posting my thought process. I hope people find this beneficial. It really helps me grow.
I did not even know there was this aspect of the discussion forum here until Chris pointed this out to me when responding to my first postings. So thankful for him!
We each have our own God-given styles here and this is good. But I think what makes us stronger in faith and knowledge concerning spiritual matters is to live a life of continual intake of Scripture over many decades yielding to the work of the Holy Spirit in this pursuit.
We do need to remain open to the input of others here, but we also need to be discerning concerning those who respond as one who does so from the heart with an attitude that benefits others and humility to be taught by others. I agree that there are some at times who seem to have motives that are not best and who respond in ways that either repeats their own narrative in ways that are contrary to Scripture or that do not help others, but elevates self. We can trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us in this.
Have a good evening-will be off to bed soon.
Many did due to the preaching and ministry of the Apostles and disciples taught by Jesus along with Paul. Many more Jews held stubbornly to their rejection of Jesus and continued to practice Judaism, though it had to go through many changes as a result of the ending of the temple rituals. The Rabbi's became stronger and stronger in their influence and it was not long before the Rabbi's introduced syncretic aspects that borrowed from the pagan religions they became familiar with. Also, they began to practice occultic rituals that led to the development of the Kabbalah that steeped the Rabbi's into the occult and certainly has led to the deep spiritual corruption of these leaders. Judaism became farther and farther estranged from the covenant practices instituted by God at Mt. Sinai. They invented new aspects of their religion since the temple was gone and Jerusalem in ruins. This led them even farther away of the LORD and entrapped them more by the enticements of their father, the devil, as Jesus stated.
This is such an instructive and sad example of what happens when people take their focus on knowing the True God in Christ and onto religious traditions, rituals, and practices that God never instituted. It happens when people worship the "church" rather than Christ. It happens when people worship the Bible instead of our Lord. It happens when we lose our first and primary love of God and fail to give Him primacy in our lives.
So, let us not be like the Jews who grew further and further from God and truth and proper worship and instead ask God to show us where we are sinning in such ways as the Jews. We pray for God to grant us repentance from improper focus and devotion and ask Him for forgiveness and a turning away from such sins.
There are many ways we can and do sin in regards to the world, but I think that misplaced religious zeal, honor, and devotion is more problematic because it seems to be "good" and is reinforced by other believers.
In this comment, you make a distinction between worshiping the "church" and worshiping Christ. And I totally agree with that statement.
But you also make a distinction between worshiping Christ and worshiping the Bible. The Bible is very clear that every word in the Bible is the word of God himself, ie. Christ himself.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So please explain what you mean by that statement. Are you somehow separating Christ from his Word, the Bible?
So again, GiGi, please explain how we worship Christ apart from the Bible, which appears to be what you are saying.
I am extremely uncomfortable with that statement.
Thank you
Rather we use what we learn from Scripture to worship God in spirit and in Truth.
These are but a tiny sampling of what God declares about His WORD, the BIBLE.
Psalms 78:1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the WORDS of my mouth.
Psalms 119:151,152 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are TRUTH. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS shall not pass away.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my WORDS in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luke 1:1,2 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the WORD;
Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the WORD of God, and keep it.
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the WORDS of eternal life.
Acts 19:20 So mightily grew the WORD of God and prevailed.
Acts 12:24 But the WORD of God grew and multiplied.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God.
I appreciate the Scriptures you have supplied. I agree that it is in the Scriptures that we learn of God and God uses the Scriptures to turn us to Him, grow in faith and knowledge of Him, and mature in our life in Him.
I will try to explain my thinking to you more clearly. Just as the church is the body of Christ, having been placed in Him by the action of regeneration of the Holy Spirit and still is distinct from who Jesus is, we are not to worship the church, whether it is people who belong to Christ or a particular sect, or a particular form of participating in fellowship with one another and Christ. Jesus is the head of the Church and He alone is to be worshipped as regards to His body.
So it is with Scripture, which is the communication of God to man. The communication, words of Scripture, is not God. God is the author of the words, but the author and the words are not the same thing. One is the cause (God) and the other is the effect (words). We are not to worship the Bible, treating it like it is God in written form, because it is not. It is the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to communicate what God wants to reveal to humanity. We are to worship the One who speaks to us through the inspired words of the biblical writers. We are to respect and obey the Scriptures as well as hide them in our hearts as the treasure they are. But, we are not to pay homage to or place the Scriptures in a place of substitution for the true God.
David, it seems that you believe that the words of Scripture are Jesus Christ because He has the title of the Word of God in John 1. But, I think that there is a difference between this title of the Son of God and words He speaks or inspired to be written in Scripture. God is not an intellectual abstract idea like words are. He is the Living God who has created all things besides Himself. He
One more thing.
In this comment you state in the last paragraph "God is not an INTELLECTUAL ABSTRACT IDEA LIKE THE WORDS ARE" (caps are mine).
Certainly the first half of your statement regarding God Himself is absolutely TRUE. But the statement, or at least the implication, that the "words" of the Bible are some kind of INTELLECTUAL ABSTRACT IDEA is absolutely FALSE; and I could not disagree more.
The Bible does not merely "contain" the Word of God in the words of Men about God and what He wants to communicate. The Bible Alone and in its Entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF (in the original autographs). The Word of God is absolutely True and Trustworthy in every sense and is the Bible is only Source Book of Absolute Truth that God gives us. The teachings of the Bible are every bit as real as God Himself and are not "intellectual abstract ideas" in any sense whatsoever.
I am somewhat shocked that you would even use that language of your statement in attempting to distinguish between God Himself and His Word. And I hope that I have misunderstood your meaning.
It is true that words are intellectual abstract ideas. This does not mean that they are true or untrue. God's words are true words and His truth endures. The words of Scriptures are understood by our mind because they are not concrete physical things like our Lord became when He incarnated Himself. Before that time He was a concrete Being as the second person of the Godhead, but not physical in nature, but spiritual. Even though a spiritual Being, God has a substance about Him, but it is not a physical substance but a spiritual substance that we do not comprehend. But thoughts and words and feelings and decisions of the will are not concrete physical things, but abstract, immaterial things. I was not insulting God or His word by saying this. I was just explaining the difference between Jesus the Son of God from the words He spoke. I value the Bible above all other ideas I can understand with my mind and hide in my heart. But I value the Godhead above all things. He originates the words we come to know, but His words of Scripture are not equal to nor the same as the Being of the Godhead anymore that the healings and miracles Jesus did are the same as the Being of Jesus Christ. They originate from Him. he is the cause and His words and actions are the result of what has been conceived in Him.
David, I do not wish to continue posting on this matter because I think that we both have explained our thinking pretty comprehensively so far. Have a good evening.
[Comment Removed]
God has existed from eternity past and is INFINITELY more than what He has chosen to communicate to mankind in His Word, the Bible.
But everything that God has chosen to reveal to mankind about Himself, our relationship to God, and His plan for mankind and this World is contained in the Word of God, the Bible.
God identifies Himself very INTIMATELY with His Word. And John 1 like every Word and phrase and chapter and book in the Bible is the Word of God chosen by God Himself, and not the word of man.
To "worship God", in the first instance, is to obey God. And to be obedient to God is to be obedient to the Word of God, the Bible.
The problem with mankind is not that we are "worshiping the Bible". It is that we are disobedient to the Word of God, the Bible. And it is only from the Word of God, as God Himself would open our understanding of His Word, that we come to know our disobedience, the terrible penalty for our disobedience, and the solution for our disobedience and incomprehensible riches that only God in His Mercy has provided at an incomprehensible cost to Himself. That is the Gospel.
I have stated this poorly. But we cannot separate the worship of God from the Word of God. Why would we even entertain such an idea?
Strange ideas coming from you, David. What are your sources in the Bible that says God is the Bible?
Do you think He's the KJV, or NIV, Message, and other translations too like Reina Valera or childrens' illustrated Bibles?
And when you mention He's the Bible, do you mean only a physical Bible or digital Bibles too. Is He the ink of text itself on the page, or the paper, or He's a leather bound cover? What about the Bible came in plastic wrapping with a sticker and UPC code- also God? A paper sack the clerk gives you after you buy it? Where do you draw the line as to what physical or intangible things you consider "God" and what are the scriptures that say God is manifested in physical objects? Is God the apocrypha, too?
>But we cannot separate the worship of God from the Word of God.
Says who? You? Do you think the Bible says that somewhere, if so, please cite all your sources. Have you prayed to God and asked Him if its true or false that He's a book?
What GiGi wrote is totally normal, and what you wrote does not sound like it comes from the Bible, but lets see what scriptures you come up with to defend this idea. God bless.
I just cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says that the words of Scripture are Jesus Himself. You have challenged David on this asking for Scripture references to show what he has presented in this thread concerning the Jesus = Scriptures, being the same thing. Thank you for that. I know that David has a very high regard for Scriptures, which we all should have, but his thinking totters on the edge of idolatry. I get where he is coming from, but cannot agree with him.
Also, thank you for saying that what I posted is "normal" thinking on this topic. I was surprised that David made it into a battle, it seems. But I feel we can move past this sub-topic from what Richard originally posted and what I posted in response to him.
I will be praying for David today. I hope that the Lord will richly bless him with clear insight concerning who He truly is as I pray that I receive the same blessing as well. We all can pray for the Holy Spirit to refine our notion of Who our God is in His Being and in the Persons of the Godhead.
I will say to you what I said to Adam.
Show me where I have said what you and Adam seem to be suggesting. That is that "Jesus IS the Bible" or that "the Bible IS Jesus".
What I have said is that the Bible (in the original autographs) are the WORDS of God, Himself. Not the WORDS of Men. And that "worshiping God" is in the first instance is "to be obedient to the WORD of God, the Bible".
And you are now suggesting that is idolatry? And that I am, to use Adam's words, "worshipping a physical Book i.e. pen and paper"?
That is nonsense and a complete distortion of what I have said.
Here is your exact quote from your post yesterday.
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF (in the original autographs). (Your caps)
So both Adam and I take this statement at face value that you are equating the Scriptures with God, especially Jesus who in john 1 is called THE WORD OF GOD.
If you do not believe this statement as we interpret it, then please explain what you really meant. If you did mean your statement to mean as we thought it meant, then please cite Scriptures that state this belief. For me, if you truly do believe that All of Scriptures, and each word in it, are in reality, God Himself in Jesus, the Word of God, then you are speaking of making what God created into an idol.
I think I explained exactly what I meant in my response to you and Adam. And if you go back and read the entirety of my comments to you in our discussion, I quoted numerous verses that I believe support exactly what I said and what I meant.
I am disappointed in your characterization of what I said. But I stand by what I said.
And like you suggested, I am now going to leave it there.
May God richly bless you.
I do wish you had spoken to my request of which of the two beliefs I asked you about. But I take it from you directing me back to the Scriptures that you believe that the Scriptures in their original autographs are strictly God's words, not those of men.
So, then, if this is true of your belief, then I gather that you believe that God dictated the words to the men to be written. Is this true?
2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old times by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
2 Timothy3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I believe what these verses declare, as I perceive that you do, too. I think there are two different stances on this topic. These are: whether God dictated His words in and through the Scripture writers or whether God guided these men through the Holy Spirit to write only what is true and sound words that accurately reflect what God wished to communicate to humanity through the writings of these men.
David, if you wish to respond back to this post, I would be happy for it. If you wish to let it lie, then that is fine, too.
Thank you for responding. And I do want to speak as directly as I possibly can to this question.
Other than perhaps the nature of salvation itself, there is no more important doctrine in my view than the nature of the Bible, the Word of God.
I'm not interested in getting into a discussion about the mechanics of how God used the human authors to write the Bible. Whether he dictated it to them or so work in their minds so that they actually wrote exactly the words that God wanted them to write, down to the very word itself.
But I believe, with every fiber of my being, is that in the original autographs, every single word in the Bible, is God's word. It is exactly the word God chose to use.
And God Himself is the only one that can actually open our understanding of the Bible as we apply the principles God declares in the Bible that we are to use in interpreting His Word.
And I believe that any other view of what the Bible is, would be a faulty view.
And, quite frankly, that is one of the primary Snares that virtually every church has fallen into, to one degree or another, and may be the primary reason God's judgment is upon the churches in our day.
I understand that is a difficult statement to accept for those that are in the churches today. And that is very sad Situation. But as are all things, this too is totally under God's control.
But if you go into any church today and compare it to what was being preached and taught and practiced within that church relative to 50 to 75 years ago, you might hardly recognize it, I am sorry to say.
Like you, I believe that Scriptures when written were so inspired by God that every word is what God intended to be written by the authors. I do not think that God dictated the Scriptures through the writers.
We do need to have a high view of Scripture and know that it is the truth of God to man. We do need to be steadfast in pronouncing the Scriptures as our source, rule and authority for matters of life and doctrine.
It is sad that so many churches have indeed wavered in this stance in light of the changes in our culture over the past 50-75 years. Yet, there are many churches that still hold fast to this view of Scriptures and are reliable witnesses for the Lord through the teaching, preaching, and individual lifestyles and witness of the believers that attend these churches. It is a great thing when one is led to such a church by the Holy Spirit.
The dumbing down of and taming of what the Scriptures say to become more palatable to both believers and unbelievers has been going on for a few hundred years beginning in the "Enlightenment" era.
While I think that God does call some believers to "come out of" the visible church, as you say, but I also believe that most believers can thrive in the visible church environment today. This is a matter of the "freedom of the believer" as long as what is chosen is truly of the Holy Spirit.
For me, the top topics that are most important for believers to learn and discuss are the Truth about Who God is in both His Oneness and in His three Persons, the Person, Life and Work of Jesus Christ for our salvation, and the essence of the Gospel.
The Scriptures is where we get our doctrine from and also is empowered to be profitable towards salvation to those who hear the Gospel. The Holy Spirit uses Scripture to bring people to Jesus for salvation, to teach us what is sound doctrine, and for us to know how God wishes us to live our life in imitation of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Thanks, David.
I very much appreciate this comment and you have touched on, what I believe, are two of the most important questions facing everyone that claims a relationship with Christ in our day.
These are 1) the Nature of the Bible and how we are to interpret the Bible, and 2) God's plan for the churches and congregations as we approach Judgment Day and the end of the world.
The third, in my view, is 3) the Nature of Salvation, itself.
I have expressed my understanding of each of these questions, to one degree or another, in most of my comments. And I expect my views have caused great consternation for some, perhaps many. But they are what I believe the Bible is teaching and I have, over time, provided some of the Scriptures which I believe support these views.
I hope to continue doing this as God might allow. And pray that God would, in His Mercy, lead each of us into truth and correct us where necessary, in accordance with His will, as we continue to search out His Word.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
What David posted was:
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF"
This seems very close to:
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS [GOD HIMSELF]"
So we asked him about it, but I felt pretty sure that's what he meant so I brought up many questions. I'm actually relieved he says he apparently doesn't believe that, but I still don't know what he believes nor do I understand any motives behind it.
If you were accusing some of us of "twisting" words just look at his words above as this is a valid question of someone posting such things on this website. I hope 2 Timothy 4:3-4 does not apply in this case, but we should be on guard against such teachings and defend the truth.
What David posted was
The Bible alone and in its entirety is the very word of God Himself .
My reply to you is , do you not believe that the Bible is entirely
the Word of God ?
Then you said to me :
This seems very close to
The Bible alone and in its entirety is ( God Himself ) .
My answer to you is no , it does not seem very close to that or anything else . It may seem very close to that in your mind but that's the only place that it seems very close to that .
I'm guessing everyone else who read that statement took it for what it was and didn't read anything else into it .
None of us can possibly be responsible , when we post something , for what someone else might think that it's seems very close to in their mind .
What David said and what you think it seems very close to , are two very different things . I'm not sure why you can't see that .
I'm assuming you meant that statement tongue in cheek.
If not, you have done a great disservice to Jema, in considering us to be the "same person".
And it would be evidence that you are not reading Jema's comments nor mine carefully. For which I am not surprised.
Jema, my apology to you for Adam's remark.
If you are really interested in understanding what I was attempting to communicate, you would do well to read all of the comments that I posted in the discussion with Gigi. Rather than singling out and apparently misunderstanding, one specific statement, which I Believe is absolutely true.
And I do try not take it personally when someone disagrees with me, regardless of how it is done.
The only thing that really matters is "what does the Bible, the Whole Bible, say" about any topic we may be discussing regarding God and His Word.
Where did I say that "God is the Bible"?
I said "the Bible is the very WORD OF GOD HIMSELF". In other words, God is the AUTHOR of the Bible. And when we are reading the Bible, we are reading the word of God Himself.
I'm not sure why, but somehow you seem to have great difficulty reading many of my comments carefully and accurately.
I believe I've made myself clear, and have quoted the scripture passages which support my belief in prior comments.
If you do not believe that every word in the Bible is the Word of God Himself, that is between you and the LORD.
I have no problem with you stating your disagreement with anything I say. But please quote me accurately in the process.
Thank you Adam.
Maybe your strict emphasis on the words within the KJV being wholly God's Word (the exact Words spoken by God) rather than just a very good translation work into English, may color folks' understanding of your statement. We've discussed this aspect with the KJV before, & we find that our differences lie there, but to state that from our discussions & your other input, I believe that I've understood your statement in question, as you've intended.
I appreciate your chiming in on this subject and yes we have gone down this road in some of our past discussions regarding Biblical Hermeneutics and the nature of the Bible.
I fully acknowledge that when we attempt to articulate our understanding of any Biblical truth in our own words there exists the possibility of misunderstanding by the reader what we are trying to communicate. And perhaps that is the case here.
I certainly was not saying that "the Bible IS God, Himself". And if anyone believes that I was, they have misunderstood my meaning.
I am saying, as I have said many times was before, that every word, every verse, every passage, every chapter, every book, i.e. the entire Bible, is from the Mouth of God Himself in the original autographs, without getting into the mechanics of how God worked this out. And that the Bible does not merely "contain" God's Word in the words of its human writers.
As far as Bible translations, I'm convinced that the KJV is the most faithful word for word translation available in the English language. And, while not 100% error free, those instances are so few and far between that we can have confidence that we are reading the Words of God Himself. And God has also given us the tools to check out the KJV translation. This however was not the focus of my discussion with GiGi.
So I maintain that The Bible Alone and in its Entirety is the Word of God. And is the Ultimate Authority for doctrine and practice in our life.
I am so glad you explained you belief to Chris here. That explains your statement Adam and I were seeking clarification from you. How you explained it here to Chris is clear to me now. I wish you would have said it this way to us when we asked for clarification, but I will accept that you clarified it to Chris instead of directly to Adam and to me.
So, in light of this explanation to Chris, I would say that we are in agreement that the words in Scripture are the words God willed to be written.
Thank you for explaining this to Chris so Adam and I can know your belief aligns with what we believe, too. Thank you for this communication to Chris.