Bible Discussion Thread

Blessings,

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

I'm having difficulty reconciling the above with 1 John 1:5 - "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." And also, Proverbs 8:13 - "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil............."

When combining the verses, it appears that God hates the evil He created and that He created darkness out of something not in Him at all.

Any help would be appreciated.

God Is

Peace

If you look at the context and meaning that verse means He creates natural "evil" or calamity- in other words, natural disasters like tornadoes, floods, fires, hail, etc. Calamity is a synonym for this word. It does not mean God sins. Given the plethora of other verses showing God's goodness and love, I think it makes sense.

I would not let this one word in one verse lead someone to disregard 100 verses about God's goodness and love- that would not make sense. God is fair and this is a fallen world cursed- thorns and natural disasters and hardship. I believe our character is being tested in our short challenging life. Just because we face calamity doesn't mean God doesn't love us. No where in the Bible does it promise that we will be comfortable or that the purpose of life is to be "happy" as the world claims, although more peace and love is a nice byproduct of following God's will.

Blessings GiGi,

Good to hear from you again also. Thank you for your thoughts.

Last time we conversed, you asked me some questions I did not answer. I have not forgotten. As you probably realize, I'm a bit sporadic. A lot going on, so even when I feel encouraged to write, I sometimes won't, because I feel as I will become too busy

or tired to follow up.

I always enjoy having a discussion with you. You definitely give me things to seriously ponder.



Briefly, in response to your recent post to me: I consider "withdrawing" as a form of limiting. I don't think the Holy Spirit ever limits His giving. Simply, we limit our receiving.

Peace be with you

Blessings Alan Manson,

Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I believe that the search for truth is but the honest searching out of what interferes with truth, and that truth must be true throughout if it be true. It cannot contradict itself, nor be in some parts uncertain and others sure.

I also believe everyone on this site, with very few exceptions, genuinely desires to understand truth and draw nearer to God. Perhaps I come off contentious , and seemingly ask foolish questions. One may consider being careful though, not to use Titus 3:9 as a tool to possibly make people seem or feel foolish because of their questions which one may have mistakenly judged as contentious. How can one be certain this is not an opportunity provided by the Holy Spirit to lovingly lead another towards God's perfect love and healing.

I've been reading and contemplating the Bible off and on for well over fifty years, and yet I still reluctantly find myself perceiving conflict within it. I've spent too many years in church and in fear of asking these questions I would like solid answers to. I would like nothing more than to have the Bible make perfect sense to me. If you or anyone doesn't want to, or CAN"T convincingly answer my seemingly foolish questions and/or comments within what I would consider a simple dialogue, I'm ok with it.

For the majority of my life I have consistently genuinely asked the Holy Spirit for truth according to the One and Only God of Perfect Love. I don't see myself as special in this sense, as I'm certain most of us here desire and ask this in their own way.

God Is

Peace

Hello One eighty - thanks for your response as it helps me understand more about you and where you are spiritually.

I'll share some "meat" with you that you can respond by telling me whether you agree or not with what I am sharing with you below.

In the following three verses, Jesus uses the term "...cannot be my disciple" implying that Discipleship is a mandatory requirement to becoming "saved':

"If any man come to me, and hate not [meaning love less than Christ] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:26)

"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:27)

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all [of his worldly possessions] that he hath, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:33)

In this last verse, Jesus is again saying to every Christian - in much the same way as he said to the rich young ruler - "...sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." ( Luke 18:22-23)

When I came to Jesus some 30+ years ago, I had the choice to abandon ALL that I had and take up my cross and follow Jesus or chase family members who had rejected me for no reason at all. I willingly chose to make that choice to follow Jesus, and have never regretted doing so.

However, such choices also require God's people to bring forth "...PATIENCE and FAITH in all your PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATIONS that ye endure" (2 Thes 1:4) together with "... INFIRMITIES, in REPROACHES, in NECESSITIES, in PERSECUTIONS, in DISTRESSES for Christ's sake" ( 2 Cor 12:10) while "...earnestly CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH" ( Jude 1:3) among those who "...corrupt the word of God ( 2 Cor. 2:17).

Given that most Christians profess that they have ETERNAL SECURITY (which contradicts Phil 2:12 and 1 Peter 5:8-9), how do you relate to the scripture verses in Luke 14 above?

Blessings, Alan

Hello One eighty,

I recently joined this discussion board and am therefore unfamiliar with those who have been here much longer.

I see scripture passages and verses as being similar to jigsaw puzzle pieces that God expects each of us to understand and appropriately place together throughout our lifetime, so as to be able to SEE the kingdom of God as one might view a beautiful picture.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, HE CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3)

SEEING God's kingdom is vital, as this act defines whether Salvation is ultimately achievable or not - John 3:5-8.

I have been on numerous Bible discussion boards seeking to partake in some "strong, Bible-based meat" ( Hebrews 5:14) in which to 'chew' on, so that similarly-minded Christians could also share what they had each discovered - so that collectively, we might each piece together what the Lord had revealed to each of us. Sadly, I have been unable to find any such discussions.

Therefore, when your questions deviated into impossible areas that could never be responded to in scripture, I felt the response I provided was necessary.

So - no offence was intended One eighty. I guess that sometimes incidents like this need to happen so that we can each learn a little bit more about each other and why we are here.

Blessings, One eighty.

Alan

Hello Alan Manson , I'm also quite new to posting on here but I've been reading this site a long time . Be aware that there are loads and loads of older posts to enjoy , in ' discussions ' 'testimonies ' and especially in ' encouraging comments ' some of them go back many years and there is plenty of meat back there for you and any of us to chew on :) .

Thanks for your comment Jema. Much appreciated.

Blessings.

Blessings Alan Manson,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have a few questions and comments.

I am of the belief that all opposites including light and darkness can only be contrasted and not compared, for the simple reason - they have nothing in common. They are as far from each other as the east is from the west. They are separated or divided. Is not God One? By your comments you seem to be suggesting God is divided, i.e. opposes Himself: the effects of a kingdom doing such, found in Mark 3:23-26.

It appears you confirmed your belief that God creates darkness, stating that darkness represents lies, deception, misinformation, etc. Are you saying that God represents lies, deception, misinformation, etc? Would you agree that darkness is lack of light (Truth)? Yet if God is the source of darkness as He is Light, then His Self would lack Light. Would you agree that whenever Light enters darkness, the darkness is abolished? If yes, then if God is darkness as He is Light, then He must be capable of abolishing Himself. Light abolishes darkness merely by showing us the darkness is not there. If this is true and God is responsible and the Source for both Light and darkness, then He would literally abolish Himself into non existence. I realize this sounds harsh, but this is what happens to that which is the opposite of itself and is divided, as described in Mark: it has an end. But of course, we know this is impossible with God.

What we can decide between is fixed, because there are no alternatives except truth (Light) and lies (darkness). And there is no overlap between them, because they are OPPOSITES, i.e. they have nothing in common and never share a common purpose. They can not be reconciled and cannot both be true. The truth of one thing always make the falsity of its opposite perfectly clear.



If God is the Creator of Light and darkness, and I'm asked to love God, am I being asked to love both Light and darkness?

God Is

Peace

Hello One-Eighty, glad to hear from you.

Light and darkness are not divine entities, neither is evil and good. Before creation there was neither light nor darkness. God created these at the beginning of creation. As to evil and good, God is forever good, but evil is the absence of good. So, if He withdraws His goodness (blessing, provision, protection) from any being He created it is because the created being has chosen evil by sinning.

I just wanted to make these points to you today. I hope you are doing well and growing in the Lord each day, taking in His Word with a heart open to the Holy Spirit.

With respect One eighty, you are taking your 'rationale' too far away from what has been presented to you by both others here and me.

I believe Richard H Priday provided another good example of answering your question where he said:

"God did create hell as well; but originally it was meant for the Devil and his angels. ( Matt. 25:41). Clearly; men enter in there because they are following their master; namely Satan rather than God. Therefore; all things work out for the good for those who love God ( Romans 8:28); but conversely; there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; other passages)."

For you to reject these Bible-based 'Contrasts' depicted in the Bible to then ask questions like:

- Would you agree that whenever Light enters darkness, the darkness is abolished?

- If yes, then if God is darkness as He is Light, then He must be capable of abolishing Himself.

- Light abolishes darkness merely by showing us the darkness is not there. If this is true and God is responsible and the Source for both Light and darkness, then He would literally abolish Himself into non existence.

COMMENT: It seems your desire is to enter into "...foolish questions...and contentions" that I am not prepared to enter into on the following basis:

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." ( Titus 3:9)

Sorry, One eighty, but I m trying to be helpful here and not offensive.

There are verses where it says that God dwells in thick clouds; i.e. a form of darkness. ( 1 Kings 8:12; also see Psalm 97:2). Darkness in the physical realm is simply the opposite of light. We could say in terms of evil that calamity is created by God for His purposes; although the Lord allows evil spirits to have some authority in that situation (such as the trials with Job). As with Job; the Tribulation also is predetermined to be a time of greater evil than has ever occurred before; or will ever be afterwards. ( Matt. 24:21). Such a trial can be escaped ( Rev. 3:10) by those who are walking in the Spirit as Jesus declared to the Philadelphia church. Those who will endure the Tribulation will be given the strength to overcome; and all those NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast ( Rev. 17:8). In short; physical death represents overcoming; while preserving one's life causes one to ultimately lose it; in terms of eternal life ( John 12:25). This means as a believer it makes sense to "die daily" ( 1 Cor 15:31) which opposes the flesh which desires the opposite.

God did create hell as well; but originally it was meant for the Devil and his angels. ( Matt. 25:41). Clearly; men enter in there because they are following their master; namely Satan rather than God. Therefore; all things work out for the good for those who love God ( Romans 8:28); but conversely; there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; other passages).

Those who truly know Christ have already gone from darkness into light ( 1 Peter 2:9; etal). We also are able to escape any of the second death ( Rev. 20:7). It is in men's hearts where the god of this world has blinded them; not in the physical realm at this time ( 2 Cor. 4:4). Therefore the darkness of spiritual blindness is basically the essence of evil; so in that sense if we aren't careful what we consider light is really darkness ( Luke 11:35).

Deuteronomy 29:29 shows how we can't fathom God's hidden counsel.

Hi One eighty.

Isaiah 45:7. These verses from verse 1 to 7, are a discourse to Cyrus, the Persian King, revealing Who this God is, One Who will use the king as His instrument. So verse 7 comes as a further reminder to Cyrus that this God is unlike anyone else: He creates Light & He has the power to remove it (once Light from a source is removed, darkness prevails - darkness is the default with light's absence). He can bring about peace (or, happiness, prosperity) & also can remove that (therefore evil instantly emerges & is rampant, with Satan ready to pour out his evil upon man & the world). The Lord has the power to do all things, which the Persian gods could never do.

To be able to correctly understand the 'behavior' of a Holy God Who can do no evil, for evil is never present within Him, the only way that I can read this verse, is to know that the God Who creates, can also remove - not that God has any evil planned for there is no evil in Him. So in one sense God does create 'evil' and 'darkness', but this is not because of His Will to do so, but in His Power to remove what He has placed there (giving or taking away peace with God & man; placing or removing His light (physical & spiritual light)). However, it is true, God does bring on what appears to us as 'evil', as in consigning men to hell, but that comes as a justified punishment for man's disobedience & rejection of Him. For your consideration.

With reference to Isaiah 45:7 and your concerns regarding:

1. "I form the light, and create darkness"

2. "I make peace, and create evil" - my response is this.

The Bible reveals many 'opposites' (or contrasts) that exist in scripture, such as:

- Being HOLY or UNHOLY ( 1 Peter 1:16; Heb 12:14)

- Being SAVED or UNSAVED (or 'lost' - Romans 10:9-10; Matt 18:11)

- Walking in the SPIRIT or walking in the FLESH ( Rom 8:1; 2 Peter 2:10)

It is in this context that God created DARKNESS so that the LIGHT that He dwells in ( 1 Tim 6:15-1) has some comparison. It is the same principle regarding "peace" (a good life and the pursuit of happiness) and "evil" (meaning war, death and destruction) that God creates these things.

However, on a spiritual basis, LIGHT represents absolute TRUTH, whereas DARKNESS represents lies, deception, misinformation, etc.

"And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT [via the words of Christ and the Apostles] is come into the world, and [religious-based] men LOVED DARKNESS rather than LIGHT [or Bible-based truth], because their deeds [of corrupting God's word - 2 Cor 2:17] were EVIL." ( John 3:19).

As for God creating "EVIL" the same principle applies:

- Being GOOD or being EVIL ( Matt 19:17; John 3:20)

- Doing GOOD or doing EVIL ( Matt 5:44; 1 Peter 3:12)

The principles in Isa 45:7 therefore regulate what people attract on Earth from God according to this statement:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth [by his actions - meaning, 'good' or 'evil' in this life], that shall he also reap [in the next life]. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh [or lusts in this life] shall of the flesh reap corruption [in Hell throughout eternity]; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap LIFE EVERLASTING [with God - IF all the conditions associated with Salvation are met]." ( Galatians 6:6-8)

I hope this answers your questions, One eighty.

Hello One Eighty, I think God can describe Himself from the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost for His purpose with man. Perhaps from each view by God the expression may vary?

Carleton