I was always under the assumption that when saved Christians die, they go to Heaven immediately. Daniel 12:2 has somewhat perplexed me. Do people just "sleep" in their graves until Christ's Second Coming? Or are they waiting in Heaven for us? Please help me understand.
I agree with Adam, as we see in Genesis 2:7 that when God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life he became a living soul. When this spirit of life that is given by God leaves us, we are no longer a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the spirit goes back to God who gave it, that is for all people, saved or not saved.
We cannot live without the spirit, our breath as James 2:26 said without it our body is dead. When we stop breathing and that spirit goes back to God, we are no longer a living soul, as Jesus said on the cross, I commend my spirit, His breath then He died. Jesus did not go to heaven He went to the tomb/grave the same as we will. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected, John 20:17.
My understanding is the confusion comes from Greek Philosophy, the meaning of death, Hades, and the immortality of the soul that merged into the Church with Augustine with the teaching on human nature and the afterlife to Greek philosophies.
Daniel 12:2 is the same as John 5:28-29 that we see in Revelation 20:11-15, the sheep and the goats, we see the last enemy cast into the lake of fire death, and hell/grave. My understanding of Scripture we are mortal, and our breath/spirit goes back to God and our soul no longer lives but is asleep in the grave until we are resurrected from the grave. This body is not what is resurrected it is our soul into our new body, and that is when we will be absent from this body, 1 Cor. 15:42-58.
Can I tell someone who thinks their loved one is in heaven their wrong? No, that would be hurtful. If they ask for my understanding, this is what Scripture says to me.
Thankyou so much Ronald , that was so well explained , I knew that and agree with everything you said but I could not have explained it as plainly and clearly as you just did :) .
I have visited some Hebrew sites to see how Hebrews understand the verse in Genesis 2:7, ""And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1. Living soul. It is always interpreted as "living being". In Bible (in both Hebrew and Greek) the word soul apart from meaning actually a soul it oftens means "person", "life", "being". In Gen 2:7 it means "being"
2. The breath of life does not mean the Spirit of God. It just shows an action from God that made man alive and that life is shown by breathing.
3. The phrase "breathed into his nostrlis" is always written as "blowing into his nostrils'. In the Septuagint it is almost the same, " And God blowed to his face the blow of life, and man became a living soul (which again is interpreted as "being").
So the whole verse in Gen 2:7 has nothing to do with Spirits and souls. It just talks about the material side of man, soil from the earth that God gave it life.
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
Hello Ashley. In my understanding, there are two aspects for those who belong to Jesus at their death: the mortal body goes into the ground & the immortal spirit returns to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). Some believe that both the spirit/soul & body remain together in the ground.
In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.
Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.
Yes, I believe that too Ashley. We will be given new bodies. On this matter, I find that 1 Corinthians chapter 15 is very helpful. To help you, please take particular note of these verses: vv12-14 (since Christ rose from the grave, so will we); vv42,53 (we died in corrupt bodies, we will be raised in bodies not given to corruption); v49 (our present image/being conforms to life on Earth, but in the resurrection, our being will conform to life without sin, decay or death).
So yes, those who die in the Lord will receive new bodies (bodies transformed from our original bodies on Earth, or from what was left of it) & will be even like our Lord Jesus exists (i.e. Jesus Who died as a Man, resurrected in His Body & translated into Heaven to be at His Father's right Hand). 1 John 3:2 gives us a little glimpse of this: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Here, the Apostle John writes to God's children; that the change that will occur to us & in us will be so dramatic, that we cannot imagine it. But one thing we know, that when He comes for us in the resurrection & rapture, we will be changed & we will become as He is: pure from all the limitations & corruption of this earthly body, given a resurrection body as Jesus has, & fully outfitted for eternal life in holiness & with our Lord. How this transformation translates into a Heavenly life or life on Earth with Jesus in rulership, has been debated. The Lord knows - we must nevertheless be ready & looking for His Coming.
I agree with Adam, as we see in Genesis 2:7 that when God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life he became a living soul. When this spirit of life that is given by God leaves us, we are no longer a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the spirit goes back to God who gave it, that is for all people, saved or not saved.
We cannot live without the spirit, our breath as James 2:26 said without it our body is dead. When we stop breathing and that spirit goes back to God, we are no longer a living soul, as Jesus said on the cross, I commend my spirit, His breath then He died. Jesus did not go to heaven He went to the tomb/grave the same as we will. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected, John 20:17.
My understanding is the confusion comes from Greek Philosophy, the meaning of death, Hades, and the immortality of the soul that merged into the Church with Augustine with the teaching on human nature and the afterlife to Greek philosophies.
Daniel 12:2 is the same as John 5:28-29 that we see in Revelation 20:11-15, the sheep and the goats, we see the last enemy cast into the lake of fire death, and hell/grave. My understanding of Scripture we are mortal, and our breath/spirit goes back to God and our soul no longer lives but is asleep in the grave until we are resurrected from the grave. This body is not what is resurrected it is our soul into our new body, and that is when we will be absent from this body, 1 Cor. 15:42-58.
Can I tell someone who thinks their loved one is in heaven their wrong? No, that would be hurtful. If they ask for my understanding, this is what Scripture says to me.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, it is a hard subject to discuss because the different understandings of the soul, spirit, and resurrection are so different.
God bless,
RLW
I have visited some Hebrew sites to see how Hebrews understand the verse in Genesis 2:7, ""And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1. Living soul. It is always interpreted as "living being". In Bible (in both Hebrew and Greek) the word soul apart from meaning actually a soul it oftens means "person", "life", "being". In Gen 2:7 it means "being"
2. The breath of life does not mean the Spirit of God. It just shows an action from God that made man alive and that life is shown by breathing.
3. The phrase "breathed into his nostrlis" is always written as "blowing into his nostrils'. In the Septuagint it is almost the same, " And God blowed to his face the blow of life, and man became a living soul (which again is interpreted as "being").
So the whole verse in Gen 2:7 has nothing to do with Spirits and souls. It just talks about the material side of man, soil from the earth that God gave it life.
GBU
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
God bless,
RLW
Never mind about grk philosophy, no worry.
I want to do a study about that "spirit of life" that God breathed in Adam and I will come back to this conversation later on.
It is possible that it actually means the Spirit of God or it means that the Spirit of God created life in Adam. Anyway I will leave it for now. GBU
Thanks, that would be great. I await the findings of your study.
God bless,
RLW
Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.
Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.
So yes, those who die in the Lord will receive new bodies (bodies transformed from our original bodies on Earth, or from what was left of it) & will be even like our Lord Jesus exists (i.e. Jesus Who died as a Man, resurrected in His Body & translated into Heaven to be at His Father's right Hand). 1 John 3:2 gives us a little glimpse of this: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Here, the Apostle John writes to God's children; that the change that will occur to us & in us will be so dramatic, that we cannot imagine it. But one thing we know, that when He comes for us in the resurrection & rapture, we will be changed & we will become as He is: pure from all the limitations & corruption of this earthly body, given a resurrection body as Jesus has, & fully outfitted for eternal life in holiness & with our Lord. How this transformation translates into a Heavenly life or life on Earth with Jesus in rulership, has been debated. The Lord knows - we must nevertheless be ready & looking for His Coming.
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