Bible Discussion Thread

Additionally Chris,

Forgive me if I'm understanding what you are saying incorrectly. But perhaps you could explain how the Salvation of those whom God saved in Old Testament times, like Abel, like Noah and his family, like Moses, like Abraham, like David, like the Ninevites, like the Queen of Sheba, like the 7000 at the time Elijah confronted the 450 profits of Baal, how their Salvation was different from the Salvation of any New Testament Believer. Does God apply that Salvation to the hearts of True Believers differently during different times in history?

It is true that God uses different means to communicate the Gospel and also provided additional information about the Gospel as He continued to write the Bible. And He also further explains and even modifies His Law to some degree until the Bible was completed. But the Gospel is the Gospel through out the history of the world. This is why we MUST compare scripture with scripture, the Whole Bible, to get the True and Complete Picture. And the Nature of Salvation throughout history has not changed in any sense. Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses were saved exactly as any New testament True Believer. And the only basis for their Salvation was and is that Christ paid the full penalty, required by the Law of God, for each and every sin that they would ever commit. And He applied that Salvation to their Life by giving them a new Resurrected Soul.

So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today, that is a False Teaching. These commandments like most in the old testament have never been set aside. God has explained more fully these basic statements of His Law as He has other aspects of His Law, but they are as applicable today as they were during the time of the Old Testament.

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Thank you David0921; you have written extensively on this subject & asked many questions. I don't plan to give as much detail as it deserves, but will address some of it.

The Bible from Genesis to Malachi is about God's dealings with His people, Israel - giving them the Law & associated punishments for their disobedience. From Jesus' teachings (Gospels) onwards (the fuller meaning of aspects of that Law to Revelation), the saved Jew & Gentile can learn & apply the full requirements of all of God's Laws by the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit within them. So then, can the Gentile, whether unbelieving or believing, learn anything from the Old Law? Most certainly, but realizing that that Law was served to Israel only to show them God's requirements for them, their sinful state ( Romans 7:7), their inability to fully obey them, & their need for God's Help to deal with sin. To the God-fearing Jew under the Law, their hope & faith remained in the God they served, looking for His Redemption ( Hebrews 11:1,2,39,40); & this applied to those pre-Law & certainly pre-Christ, in Whom their redemption would one day be realized.

Romans 3:31. Romans 3:28, "we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law". This is the essence of this chapter, of justification of both Jew & Gentile through faith & not dependence on the Law. Is the Law then nullified because of faith? Paul writes, "we establish the Law"; i.e. the Law's role was to make men conscious of sin (v20) & this aspect of the Law (revealing sin) is confirmed by all those who turn from sin to Christ in faith. The Law couldn't effect salvation in Jesus - only Faith in Him could. The Law served/serves its purpose, but could never bring release. Why should we then put ourselves under it by reverting to it & placing its Holy Commands with punishment on those who need the liberty found by faith in Jesus? Onto Page 2.

Page 2. David0921.

1 John 2:3-5: speaks of keeping Jesus' Commandments, not specifically the Ten Commandments (there is a clear difference between them). Psalm 119: the Laws, Precepts, Judgements, etc. given to Israel; not to those in Christ Jesus.

"How do I determine what is sin and what is not?" The Holy Spirit Who resides in my life instructs me in all things I need to know or be alerted to: of ALL of God's Laws, of where I slip up, of things just not quite right that can be regarded as sin ( John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 4:30). The Decalogue in & of itself falls far short of what God would require of me. In other words, I would rather be subservient & obedient to the Spirit than to the Letter of the Law. And when I fail Him, I am gently instructed & helped to learn & follow His Path.

"So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today", I certainly don't mean the Truth contained therein, including all other Laws, whether Israel or Gentile-specific, but I refer to the purpose of the Decalogue, as a whole package of Laws for Israel that demanded obedience or punishment (including obedience to the 4th Commandment).

This type of Law has no bearing on those now IN CHRIST, who have been delivered from that Law of sin & death ( Romans 7:6; Romans 8:2). If there was no Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, then yes, we must grab onto & perform all the laws we can find in God's Word & hope for the best in the Judgement. But the believer's salvation is secure because it is all of God (His Great Plan), all of Jesus (His Great Sacrifice) and of His Spirit (His Great Ministry), Who will 'present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy'. My obedience & confidence rests only in the Person of the Godhead, enjoying the liberty of serving Him as He directs & not conforming to a set of rules that was prescribed to judgement & death.

Chris (continued from earlier response)

The statement below is a quote from one of your responses to Frankie.

"The Old Covenant showed man his sin & God's Vengeance was upon him (but saved by the sacrifices); "but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ" ( John 1:17) & we now can receive unconditional pardon."

Forgive me for extracting that comment out of its context, but by that statement you are asserting a different Salvation plan for those saved in National Israel of the Old Testament from the Salvation of the New Testament. And the Salvation plan you are asserting is a Salvation based upon Works rather than Grace. And that CANNOT be. It is the snare that the Pharisees fell into.

We read in Hebrews and in particular Hebrews 10:1-4

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

All of the "ceremonial" aspects of the Law were given to National Israel as a PICTURE of the Nature of Salvation. And not as a MEANS to Salvation. They were types and shadows of the real SUBSTANCE of Salvation.

And that Salvation is the same Salvation that has "saved" every True Believer throughout time.

We MUST allow the Bible, The WHOLE Bible, to interpret itself.

More later.

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Thanks David0921, I do appreciate our exchanges here. To your first point: I've never thought myself as a Dispensationalist, believing that a Bible reader naturally views the whole Bible panorama in such a way; but since writing on these pages, I've come to understand that not all Christians view it like this. Therefore, yes, I am a Dispensationalist, as that is the only way for me to view & understand the Bible, specifically God's working in the lives of people & the unfolding of His Plan, to the end that the World might experience His Love & be drawn back to Him through that Gift of Love & Redemption. And being a 'dispensationalist', I do also see as you do, that "God Himself, the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the One True God is, in fact, the AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible." My position certainly doesn't discount this great Truth - it's just how we view & apply this Truth; to you & others, a 'non-dispensational' view makes the Bible truly meaningful, but to those who read it as I do, the Bible becomes unclear even to misapplying these Truths, as we see in this great example we've been discussing here: i.e. was the given Law (in the OT) only for Israel, or for all nations? Just at this point alone, if we don't find agreement then anything we write in support of it, will take us further apart, not finding common agreement.

And of course, I also see, as you do, the connections between the Old & the New (e.g. with the Laws), yet I also see a clear distinction where the purposes & practises of the Old are almost always different from the New. Hence, we need to take great care in how we 'divide' the Word, for our understanding & our teaching to others. So when we come to the Commandments of Jesus (as you shared), there is most certainly a connection to the Old, yet Jesus gave a whole different meaning & understanding to them - (see page 2.)

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with this aspect, the OT folk would not have known, for there was nothing in the Law to guide them further (e.g. adultery was the physical act; Jesus said that it (& all sin) begins in the heart & not in the act). So the connection is evident - but the Truth is made real & the more meaningful & attainable when the Holy Spirit of Truth & Grace is revealed. This is Dispensational Truth & Understanding to me.

Re: the statement you extracted from my comment to Frankie J; I admit I did not elaborate on what I meant by "saved by the sacrifices", since I assumed that folk would know that those sacrifices couldn't give salvation, but Israel was 'saved' or kept from God's Wrath against their sin, by His receiving those sacrifices, the blood shed & the aroma that rose up before Him, while awaiting the coming Promise of that One & Only acceptable Sacrifice that would fully & permanently cleanse them before God. So no new salvation plan - just a temporary one that covered Israel's sin awaiting God's provision & not man's efforts.

And then you wrote, "And that Salvation is the same Salvation that has "saved" every True Believer throughout time." The common factors in this 'Salvation' plan (OT & NT) are revelation of personal sin, provision of a sacrifice, & the need for cleansing & acceptance by God. Though under both Covenants the common thread is very strong, yet Israel could never be saved through the sacrificial system & religious practises & had to await the Perfect one. Thus their 'salvation' cannot be the same as the Salvation given by Jesus Christ, for Israel was still in their sins, no matter how much love & religious fervor they had towards God. Hence, the Dispensational view helps me make sense of it: that 'their salvation was unlike the Salvation given by Jesus - but it does lead to it and that 'by faith alone', that which was required by them & us towards God.

Again Chris,

Thank you for your response.

I focus on the last paragraph of page 2 of your last response where you seem to be taking issue with my statement that the Salvation of Old and New Testament Believers is the same Salvation.

I have read that paragraph several times and confess to not understanding what you are communicating. That may be on me.

I am not suggesting that Old Testament Believers had as much information about the Nature of Salvation as we do today. They did not have the Whole Bible as we do.

But I am saying that there is one and only one Salvation that God has worked out even before He created the world. And it is God Himself that applies that Salvation to those He has chosen to save throughout time. And it is a Salvation of Grace Alone where God does 100% of the work in saving us. And our works contribute nothing to that Salvation. And this is the Salvation that Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and David experienced. And that every New Testament Believer experiences as well.

That Salvation is not dependent on how much we know about the Gospel. Look at the Ninevites; how much did they know and understand about the Gospel. But they experienced exactly the same Salvation as anyone else that becomes saved throughout time.

So if you are suggesting that there is a difference in the Salvation of Old and New Testament Believers, what is that difference?

Big difference David between the Old covenant and the New covenant....Jesus said many prophets and righteous Men has desired to see the things you see and HEAR the things you hear but heard them Not.....Hear ye therefore the parable of the Sower and his seed.....Thats y Jesus said he that is least in the Kingdom is greater then John....John was the O.C.....But the H.G. was not yet given in the O.T......And cd not be given till Jesus was GLORIFIED.....When the sower will go forth to sow his seed in humanity Jesus is gona be glorified Which is multiplication of his seed.....As the script. says the glory of the father are his Children.....Which are spirits as that which is born of the spirit is spirit.....The H.G. is the multiplication of Christ Jesus....Thats y they refer to the H.G. as the Promise.....Under the O.C. it was Isaac that was the Child of Promise....Impling natural Israel.....But under this N.C. its the H.G. that is the Child of Promise...Thats y he is saying that which is born of the spirit is spirit...Imping an Israel of God that is gonna be born in us via his good seed the living word that N.C...There is no Salvation or Kingdom until the woman births the manchild which is the H.G. that Child of PROMISE..... Rev 12:10

........What the scriptures are trying to tell us is....there is no Salvation from sin till we birth the H.G. That CHILD OF Promise.....A lil Child is gonna lead them....Thats y Jesus is telling us Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child ( the H.G.) You will in no wise enter there in.....As that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit.....Which answers to our new heart and new SPIRIT.....That New CREATURE....The woman in Rev.12 keeps the commandments simply b/c she has birth the Child of Promise the H.G....Which is the testimony of Jesus.....that Spirit of truth that is gona rule all nations.....And reprove this world of sin and righteousness and Judegment....Thats y we must be bornagain of an incorruptible seed...not in O.T..

Yes David0921, I think that we are in some agreement: that the salvation that God has granted to all mankind is by His Grace & our Faith alone. Where the difference I see between the OT 'believers' & the NT believers, is that the one was looking forward to the Cross (without any inkling of it); and the other, looking back at the Cross where Salvation's work was fully completed.

For us, it is clear but for those pre-Cross, how did they perceive their salvation (or, even understand how God expected them to live to attain it)? Therefore, I see that their status before God was to adhere to His Commandments or suffer, to offer sacrifices for atonement, & to hope that if all requirements were met, remaining faithful to God, then they would not suffer & for some, a resurrection hope - all of Works to get there.

Conversely, those post-Cross didn't need to obey God's Commandments to receive His Salvation, obviously no need for sacrifices (for Jesus was the Sacrificial Offering to God), & we don't have any fear of rejection because none of the above were requirements for acceptance - God, in His Son, came for us & accomplished all. So ultimately those of the OT folk who did according to the Word of God & believed in God to redeem them knew that nothing more could be done towards their salvation, but it was now all in God's Hands. Those who spurned God's Word, engrossed in sin, idolatry, etc., had no hope.

Whereas we (post-Cross), can have confidence (i.e. if truly repentant, calling on God), that our salvation is secure, based wholly on what God has done & not on our merits. Here then is the difference - because in considering the Doctrine of Salvation, it is not just about the destiny of the soul (which is clearly the goal), but that which goes on before to attain it: is it of Works (& then God judges them on their love & faith in Him & then applying Jesus' Blood also to them), or is it only of Faith (where our sin was judged at the Cross) & our works will follow?

Chris,

You might note in all of my comments where I speak about the Nature of Salvation, I always stress that Christ does 100% of the Work in saving those whom He saves and that Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is a reason for this.

We must start with the very clear statement of Romans 3:10-18 that ALL of mankind is Spiritually DEAD and will never exercise "faith in God"or "believe on Christ" in a way that is pleasing to God, despite the fact that we are COMMANDED to do so.

Our Faith and Our Belief (one is the verb the other is the noun) are Works that we do ( 1 Thessalonians 1:3). And the Bible is crystal clear that our works can never save us. So we are not saved by God's Grace and Our Faith. We are saved by God's Grace Alone. Our Faith and Our Belief are the RESULT of our Salvation. They are not a CAUSE nor a BASIS for our Salvation.

Unfortunately, if you go into virtually any church today you will be presented with some form of a Works-Grace gospel. And this is one reason why I believe that 1 Pet 4:17 and other related passages are in play today. And this is very sad to say.

I fully agree David0921. And I take note that you have always held your position that 'Christ does 100% of the Work in salvation and that Salvation is by Grace alone - without any work or contribution to it on our part'. And I've truly appreciated your strong affirmation of this as it certainly rings very true in what I also read & believe.

In my statement: "is it of Works (& then God judges them on their love & faith in Him & then applying Jesus' Blood also to them), or is it only of Faith (where our sin was judged at the Cross) & our works will follow?", I was referring to the OT saints in their standing before God with their love, devotion & faith to keep & deliver them. I don't believe that their expression of 'faith' was a gift of God (though certainly a mark that becomes those who are the Elect of God), as is the Faith that has been given us post-Cross ( Ephesians 2:8,9: God's Grace plus His Gift of Faith to us leads us to receive His Salvation): I think a slight difference to what you believe ("that our Faith and our Belief are the Result of our salvation).

Their devotion & diligence to God's Commandments were sufficient to also make them heirs of salvation, looking forward to Christ's Sacrifice that would avail to them as well. Theirs was Works-based but believing in the God Whom they served to not fail them, with the Cross ahead of them. Ours is Grace-based, having done nothing worthy (or could ever do) to deserve His Favor, & no Law that we could call upon that would assist us; for the Cross is behind us, the Work fully completed & no effort on our part could ever contribute to that glorious salvation or make it more secure. So thank you for your comment - I believe we have much agreement here.

Chris,

I still read in what you are describing as a significant difference in the Salvation of Old Testament believers from that of New Testament Believers in that Old Testament Believers somehow dredged up some kind of faith within themselves that God recognized, despite their DEADNESS as described in Romans 3 and other passages.

If this is not what you are suggesting, you have my apology for misunderstanding your words.

But I maintain that if we entertain a Salvation that is in any way based upon our works, we do not have the Salvation of the Bible. That was true in the Old Testament time and it is true today. And that is not a path I want to consider walking down, even in the slightest.

Remember the man in Numbers that picked up a few sticks. That should be in the forefront of our mind when we are thinking about the Nature of Salvation and the Gospel we follow and declare.

I believe David0921, that you have understood me correctly to a point. However, I'm not saying that Israel's salvation (a yet appointed time in the future), those who were faithful to the Lord was based on their works (i.e. obedience to the Law, sacrificial offerings, etc.), but that salvation would come to them (looking forward) by the merits of Christ's Death, just as for us post-Cross.

When I said 'works based', I didn't mean that they would be saved by their law-keeping, etc., for nothing they or we could ever do, would secure redemption. They only did what was required of them by God (which was based solely on works yet should have caused them to cleave to God trusting in Him alone). Were they saved by their works? If they were, then there was no need for Jesus' Coming. But those works (obedience, sacrifice) brought them into a standing before God, where the Blood of Christ could retrospectively be applied to them; these who had no knowledge of such a Redeemer, but only knowing sin & cast upon God's Mercies for the covering of that sin until their redemption (salvation). Hebrews 9:15, 'the called only received the promise'.

I don't know whether that explains it better, but your quote, "Salvation is by Grace alone" seems to not take into account what takes place before salvation is granted: how a person's life is directed, how & when the Gospel comes to him, or the drawing in by the Father ( John 6:44). For us, we don't consider this as Works, only when we try to add to or replace the Grace of God. Jews weren't adding to their future salvation; they only did what was required of them; and God knowing their hearts would apply the True Sacrifice. See Romans 4:1-5: righteousness that was imputed to Abraham. Why? Because he believed God, having hope, trusting His Word, without calling upon his works. Likewise, to all OT Israel who placed their trust & hope in God were marked for salvation, without works - unlike those who disobeyed or trusted in their works.

Chris,

Correction.

In my reference to the translation of Romans 4, I should have said Greek instead of Hebrew; and Hebrew in the equivalent Old Testament passage.

Thank you for that explanation Chris.

But I think we understand Romans 4 in regards to Abraham differently.

First let me say my understanding is that the translation from the Hebrew to English here could have been done somewhat better; but I do not feel qualified to get into that.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth{belief BECAUSE God has saved us}on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith{that is Christ's faith, Christ Himself} is counted for righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed{belief BECAUSE God has saved us}in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

All True Believers throughout time are justified, i.e. saved by the faithfulness of Christ; NOT OUR FAITH. Our faith is a GIFT of God and is the RESULT of our Salvation and Justification; it is not the CAUSE nor the REASON.

And that was the case for Abraham and all Old Testament True Believers.

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Thanks David0921; I think that this matter of 'believing on God' or even 'believing that God is able', is to be seen as different as to what we call 'saving faith', or a faith (act of trusting) in God to effect His Work of Salvation. It might sound like a 'grasping at straws' to convince another, but for me to adequately understand & apply this matter of 'ordinary faith & saving faith', is important. In the case of the OT folk, as we read here in Romans 4 about Abraham & David, the mention of Abraham's faith being "counted for righteousness", I understand that from what he knew & experienced of God, he exhibited human (ordinary) faith towards Him. And this was a faith based on his knowledge & his works to please God (as with Enoch, Hebrews 11:5). I don't perceive this was a special gift of faith for these men to exhibit, but an ordinary faith resulting from God revealing Himself to them & their desire to serve only Him.

But then we come to the NT & Ephesians 2:8,9. Even though unregenerate man, as those of the OT, can still express faith, whether towards God or man, in Ephesians we see that for the saving Work of Christ to be effective, we have the indivisible combination of both God's Grace & His Faith given for that to happen. In other words, God could have just given the sinner His Grace by way of sending His Son for them, but can that sinner, from an unregenerate heart, create a faith that can truly understand, embrace, & consistently live out the great salvation of God? And that is why Ephesians 2:8 shows, "and that not of yourselves": the Gift of God is both His Grace & His Faith that would instigate & complete salvation in that lost soul. Onto Page 2.

Page 2. David0921.

I don't believe that the OT folk found or experienced this type of faith (they didn't need to - Christ had not come, nor did they have the Holy Spirit indwelling); but expressed an ordinary faith, like we would towards others deserving of it. But when their salvation was finally sealed (i.e. after Christ's dying for all), they, now dead for a long while (yet alive in spirit), had their faith that counted towards righteousness (righteous standing before God), realized in the eternal securing of their souls through Christ's Blood. They were still the beloved of God even before Christ's coming, but it took Christ's Blood to give them the Seal of God's Acceptance, not based on their works, but their unflinching faith & hope of the future, towards Him.

I know you would disagree with some or all of this, but I don't ever see that God gave those OT folk any gift of Faith, even looking ahead to Christ, but that they came before God in their faith, with their works & were found in right standing before God - something that couldn't be applied to those of us post-Cross, where ONLY God's Gifts of Grace & Faith (or, Christ's Faith as you have written), can make His Salvation effective in our hearts.

Amen Chris.

I see it as you do concerning the indwelling of the spirit upon the people of Israel. It was different than the way he indwells the Church.

In the Old Testament God often spoke in types, allegorically and similitudes. They also didn't have spiritual understanding of the new covenant ministry and the Church.

We see this evident when the Lord was talking to Nicodemus and also the Samaritan woman at the Well.

They had no idea what being born from above meant or what worshiping in truth and in spirit meant.

They didn't have the Holyspirit IN them as you see mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26-27

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, AND "CAUSE" YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, AND DO THEM.

(He will cause them to walk in his statutes,) "That hadn't taken place yet "

The death burial and resurrection hasn't taken place yet, Therefore the baptism of the Holyspirit that quickens the believer wasn't a part of their ministry and wasn't meant to be. If it had been part of their ministry righteousness would have come by the law.

We would be under the Leviticus priesthood and Christ wouldn't be our High Priest.

The spirit would come upon them to minister but It seems there was a certain season for certain things he would reveal to them.

Also God spoke to them by prophets he would anoint, today he speaks to us by his Spirit that teaches us the things of Christ as mentioned in John 14:26. (Church things!) "Something that wasn't revealed to them at that time".

Without the Holyspirit they would not have had an blood tipped ear to receive them. John 16:12-14.

Note;

I'm not digging into eschatology but focusing on Israel and their sacrifices and the law, what God required of them and what thet put their trust in.

I'm fully in agreement with you.

God bless you.

God bless.

Thank you brother S. Spencer for those additional thoughts & Scriptures. Unlike many, I do see a clear demarcation between the Old & New Covenants, between those living in the OT under Law & those since Calvary, living under Grace, without the Law. For me to fuse these people, events, & the operation of God together, would make no sense to me of what the Bible declares as fact. I could then read the Bible in whatever I choose to do to satisfy some pre-conceived belief in the Operation of God in people's lives & for their eternal blessing or punishment. GBU.

Hello Chris,

We may be mincing words here, but I do not agree with your statement that the Old Testament believers did not have saving faith or faith as a gift of God. I don't believe any person can be saved without this gift of faith through grace.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, Joseph, David, Elijah, Isaiah, and the other prophets were elected for salvation so they would have been given the gifts we receive from God by merit of Christ's sacrifice. Just as it extends ahead of His work to us, it extends back in time to these saints.

The Bible no where says that they did not have a gift of faith by grace, so we cannot really make a doctrine by something that was not revealed in the Scriptures. If the Scriptures say that it is by grace one is saved through faith, then this truth is for all time, since no Scriptures state any other way to be saved. To state that there is a different method of salvation for the Old Testament saints than for New Testament saints is to say that the gospel promise was not for them, just for us.

This two ways of salvation doctrine is classic dispensational teaching going back to Darby. Today, many dispensationalists do not accept this belief.

If God can apply the merits of Christ's sacrifice to those who live long or centuries after the sacrifice was made, then He can apply those merits back in time to those who He elected to salvation. He is not bound by time as we are. We do not know all that God said to these Old Testament saints in their private conversations. Not everything was recorded, but some of this was communicated to children, grandchildren as the patriarchs aged. So, I do think that these saints knew more about the Messiah than is recorded in Scripture. Job knew that the Messiah would be resurrected and that he would be resurrected on the last day and behold His Redeemer in life after death. Abraham knew that God could raise the dead. He most likely knew the Messiah would be raised from the dead.

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I guess GiGi, we would remain in disagreement here. I can only understand the faith that saves as applying to those looking back to the Cross, understanding its message, being convicted, repenting, receiving Christ by His Spirit, & being born again. This is something (all of it) that the OT folk could never do. But it is true, the Word is silent about the way the faith of those before Christ worked. You believe that their faith was also a gift from God, as ours is for salvation. Again, this understanding is left open as to how we understand the meaning of faith & its application (both in everyday life & in salvation). So, I don't make a doctrine out of this, but just sharing how I read & understand the Word (maybe it is as you suggest, through my Dispensational eyes). Yet, I don't believe in "two ways of salvation", only one, in & through Christ's Blood. But what I do see is that the Cross which has the same implications on both, the Jew before Christ & the Jew & Gentile after Christ, has to be approached with 'faith'.

So if we look at Romans 3:28-30: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision BY faith, and uncircumcision THROUGH faith".

'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it. So this same God (of Jew & Gentile), justifies the one (Jew) BY Faith & the other (Gentile) THROUGH Faith. These words are generally disregarded by students of the Word as insignificant (whether BY faith or THROUGH faith) as they are too similar to warrant argument, yet Paul was inspired to pen them in this manner. See Page 2.

And also Chris,

When you say "'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it" what is the "faith" you are referring to? Is this Chris's Faith or Our Faith? This is not a distinction without a difference; it is the very essence of Salvation itself. And where we come down on this question determines the gospel we are trusting and proclaiming.

Galatians 4:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the "FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST", even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "FAITH OF CHRIST", and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What God is teaching here is that the faith that "saves" is Christ's Faith, His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those He saves; not Our faith. And Our faith IN Christ and our justification is the RESULT of Christ's Faith. It is NOT THE RESULT of our faith. Our faith in Christ is a GIFT from God and is part and parcel of the Salvation and Justification that we receive because Christ has saved us.

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Sorry David0921. To your question of "what is the "faith" you are referring to?" In regards to Israel (i.e. those living in obedience to God & with holy fear), under the Law & looking ahead by faith to God's Salvation, I understand that this is the faith that they possessed. It wasn't a God-given faith, simply a faith in God based on God's Commands, His dealings, His special care. They had no Cross to gaze upon & no Holy Spirit unction to grant them Divine Faith. But God recognized that faith, even as "Abraham believed (expressed faith in) God, and it was counted to him for righteousness". Was Abraham's faith God-given? I don't believe so - just ordinary faith to proceed in the ways of God by what He heard, saw, & experienced. That same type of faith that was seen in Abraham is the faith that carried them through to the Cross & the application of the Blood shed to their hearts.

In regards to Gentiles post-Cross (i.e. those not knowing God, steeped in idolatry & sins, & undeserving of God's Mercy), Christ's Blood was extended to them as well ("through faith", Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:8,14). Even though our faith is likened to Abraham's faith ( Galatians 3:7), the description is that of an expression true faith & not how it has been derived. Our natural faith could never secure salvation, as can be seen by those in other religions who also acknowledge God, even Jesus, yet not having the faith that saves. As well, Christ had already completed His Work & His Spirit sent out to do His Work. But when we look to the Cross, understanding that our sin put Jesus there, & the weight & punishment for sin being too much, we then call on God for Mercy. Onto Page 2.

Page 2. David0921.

Then the mysterious transaction of Spirit-given Faith: to believe, to receive, & then to rejoice that the Work of Salvation has been completed in us. Nothing at all of us - but all of God to bring sinners devoid of the knowledge & blessings of God, into the family of the olive tree's 'natural branches'; standing only by faith ( Romans 11:20).

And Galatians 2:16: this is Paul speaking of those 'justified by faith & not the works of the law'. This "faith of Jesus Christ" can only apply to those after Christ's death & not before, even as Peter was reprimanded for his hypocrisy in applying the ceremonial Law - applying the works of the Law to the faith of Christ. And you've stated that this is the 'Christ's Faith' ("His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those he saves"). I think the Greek here is that it is the 'Faith from Christ', but I can't be sure; one of our Greek-speaking brothers will need to verify this as this is an important point in what you shared. In any case, only those after Jesus completed His Work on the Cross, can this Faith be seen and applied.

Chris , you are having to work very hard on this site lately :) . You have my sympathy .

Thank you Jema. I do enjoy these types of discussions. We may not find agreement in everything, but it does provoke one to consider another's point of view & deeply reflect on it & see how 'truth' might also lie therein. Of course, God's Word, though sufficient for our present knowledge & growth, does not always give us a nice step-by-step outline on these important doctrines & teachings. We do have to dig around, rightly dividing the Word, and though the flecks might be scattered around, the pot of gold might still need to be found & most probably only at that day when all will be revealed & understood. Blessings.

So Chris,

I know I said I would leave off this discussion, but I am curious about a few questions regarding your understanding of the Nature of Salvation, if I may.

If I'm understanding you correctly, Abraham and other Old Testament "believers" were "saved" because of some INHERENT faith within themselves, not given to them by God, but that they must exercise in appropriating the promises of God. Where then did that faith come from if they were SPIRITUALLY DEAD as we read in Psalm 53:2,3 and Psalm 14:2,3 and Romans 3:11-18?

How do you understand "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13:8 relative to Christ's atonement and its application to Believers throughout time?

What is your understanding of election and predestination? Are these terms applicable to every True Believer throughout time or only to a specific group of Believers during a specific time period in history?

Was Christ's atonement a general atonement for all of mankind that we must appropriate by "accepting Christ" or "exercising our inherent faith" of our "free will" in order to be saved? And if so, what does it mean to be "in bondage to sin and Satan"?

Or was Christ's atonement specific and limited to those Spiritually Dead sinners whom He chose to save by His Mercy from before the foundation of the world, and that Christ would draw them and apply this atonement in Salvation to their life by His Grace Alone?

What does it mean to be Born Again?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

Page 1.

David 0921, 'never say never', as far as leaving a discussion. The fact that the Holy Bible is being read & discussed should always give us reason to explore it together even if we understand it differently or disagree. It has to be a most profitable exercise to stir our minds, hearts & spirits. So now to your very good questions.

a. OT "believers". Yes, all men stand before God as corrupt & spiritually dead. Does that mean that in this state we never exercise faith (not referring to saving faith here)? A family member, a friend or an institution that has proved their genuineness, sincerity, honesty, etc., usually induces a faith in us that they will do as they declare. The OT folk had every experience of God that God wanted to give them, to show & shower His Love upon them (as to none other), caring for them beyond their expectations. If I were living in those days, hopefully, I would say, 'here is a God Who is real, loving, & leading me to Himself (in this life & in the next)'. But of course, many only grumbled & turned to idols. What of those who stayed faithful to God, recognizing that God is Who He says He is & can be trusted to fulfil His Promises? Did they suddenly get a special faith to stay close to God & how is this different to the ordinary faith we express in everyday life?

So I don't perceive that their 'faith' saved them - only Jesus' Sacrifice could do that. But their faith, however feeble, kept them persistently trusting in God with their Works, that even in their death, they could trust God to receive them (& of course, this would be realized by Jesus' Coming & His Blood availing for them as for us). God accepted their faith, even as it gave Abraham his righteous standing before Him, but Abraham would have had to remain faithful to realize his salvation in Jesus. We however, will always remain faithful because of the Spirit of Grace given us to secure us & stir our hearts always toward God. To Page 2.

Page 2. David0921.

The true believer now can never deny the Lord, unlike those pre-Cross who without the Spirit's indwelling, had to be diligent & persevere to gain God's acceptance & salvation.

b. Revelation 13:8. "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", speaks to me that it was always in God's Plan that He would, in His Son, the Lamb of God, that He would be the perfect & only Sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Even before the worlds were framed together, Christ had to come & give His Life as a ransom, hence it speaks of an unalterable fact that the Lamb Who was physically slain at Calvary was already planned for death before that time & that when His death took place, His shed Blood would apply to all who turned to the Lord from the time of creation till the final judgement. But until that Blood was shed, the OT folk could only await their salvation (being held in paradise) until 'it is finished' was Jesus' Cry.

c. Election & Predestination. Yes, these terms are applicable to all people in all history, whether to those who would turn to & belong to the Lord & those who reject the Lord, all according to God's Foreknowledge. I believe this 'Foreknowledge' is important here as it tells us that God already knew the path we would take & so He directs our lives accordingly to him or not. I don't see God's determination as just a random selection of individuals; but that all people will know that they are accepted or rejected according to the conduct of their lives & not by any appeal to God for salvation but still being rejected. 1 Peter 1:2, if the Elect are predestined according to God's foreknowledge, I think it's reasonable to believe that the non-elect are likewise rejected, because of it.

To Page 3.

Page 3. David0921.

d. Christ's Atoning Work applied to all mankind: for those before the Crucifixion, that Blood would avail for them looking forward in (by) faith; for those post-Crucifixion, Christ's Blood applied looking back through faith. The OT folk could never have 'accepted Christ' (they knew nothing about Him - all they had was a faith & hope looking forward); yet the Blood availed for them, for that is what the Sacrifices pointed to yet falling short. For us post-Cross, we have seen Christ crucified for us, we now receive this free Gift of salvation, & through Spirit-given faith we can truly call upon God & His Son Whom we never knew as Israel knew Him. We were as Romans 10:13,14, as those who never knew God or saw His Works as Israel did. But now we do know Him & believe on Him & His Son through His Faith given us. We were all "in bondage to sin and Satan", yet the hunger for God, understanding His Message of Love, & hope for the future can still occur while in such bondage & deception. And so we might be led to the Cross, receiving Christ, released from that bondage, Satan's grip, & hopelessness.

e. "Christ's atonement" availed for all sinners from Adam to those ahead of us; all with the fallen sin nature & spiritually dead. But the atonement & redemption finds its application to those who turn from their sin. So I agree to your statement as far as the Atonement, though available to all, was specific to those dead in sin, but whom God in His Mercy & Foreknowledge brought many to glory. And Christ, Who was "slain from the foundation of the world", shed His Blood to atone all whom God had called (OT & NT) that salvation is given by His Grace alone. To Page 4.

Page 4. David0921.

I think our point of difference here is on Faith: did the OT faithful (the elect) have a God-given faith so as to be accepted, or did they come in their own faith, which God accepted looking ahead to the Cross? Yet knowing, that faith could never save them - only Christ's Blood. Hebrews 11:39,40, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." We have been made perfect (cleansed, holy) in Christ & so also those others to join us as new creatures in Christ Jesus, that which they could only hope for & never attained.

f. Born again. The entrance of the Holy Spirit into a sinner's life: the sinner who has heard & understood the Gospel in view to the wretchedness of his sins & holiness of God, repented, called upon God for salvation, & God's Gift of Salvation & of His Spirit, Who seals, secures, & ministers to every area of the person's life. The once lost, despairing & fearful under the judgement of God, now enjoys peace with God, freedom from sin's grip, victory over temptations, power & desire to live unto God & not to self, & the assurance of God's tender care to eternity, would show the redeemed one this dramatic change in life that can only be done by the Power of God. I see this, in brief, the re-birth work of the Holy Spirit & resulting effect on this 'new' person's life ( 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I trust brother that my comments have gone some way to help you understand what I believe.

Thank you Chris for that very lengthy and comprehensive response.

I would only respond by saying that the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is first and foremost the Gospel of Salvation. And that God continued to add to our understanding of that ONE TRUE GOSPEL as He added to the Bible. So that we must read and harmonize the entirety of the Bible, as God would open our understanding, of that ONE TRUE GOSPEL in order to understand the true Nature of Salvation.

And that it is God Himself that applies His Salvation to those whom He saves throughout time in giving them a faith and trust in Him. And the Salvation of every individual that God saves is 100% the work of God Himself.

We can make no contribution to our Salvation in any way and are entirely dependent upon the Mercy of God to save us and to apply that Salvation to our life because we by nature we are in total rebellion against God as we read in Romans 3.

Thank you David0921 for going through my response to your questions. And for yours as well; to which I agree that we can see the Gospel (the Way of Salvation) at work as soon as man lost his intimate connection with his Maker through sin. All that God did for Israel was to demonstrate His Love & yearning for their love & worship. And yes, this was a progressive work which should have been meaningful to the alert prayerful ones giving hope for their future & of the nation. And it was for them that Christ came & we are also the beneficiaries of their salvation, to provoke them to jealousy ( Romans 11:11). Praise God for those Jews who are turning to Jesus, being drawn to the Light, believing in the Messiah that came & gave His Life for them. GBU

The law was given by Moses but Grace and Truth came by Christ Jesus..... John 1:17

......The law and the Prophets were until John since that time the Kingdom of God is preached and all men press into it Luke 16:16

There was no baptism of the H.G. till Christ came....Thus no new birth till Christ came.....No new Creature till Christ came....The H.G. was not given till Christ was glorified.....Thus no kingdom or real Salvation from Sin....till the woman births the manchild...... Rev. 12:10....Simply b/c the book of life was sealed with 7 seals.....Jesus wrote this book of life with his own blood at Calvary.....The O.T. answers to the 1st wine the law.....But the N.T. answers to the 2 nd wine which was the best wine.....The gift of the H.G. the Kingdom that is gonna rule all nations .....The wedding was not till the 3 rd Day which is the last day when Jesus turned the water into wine....

.......The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in Joy and Peace in the H.G. Romans 14:17.....The REAL H.G. is the Kingdom of God.

.......But the O.T. was a shadow of things to come.....Just as Abraham Isaac and Jacob were multiplied as the sands of the seas so the heavenly Godhead will be multiplied as the stars of heaven.....Thus there will be an Israel of God as the stars of heaven....The seed of Christ will produce a heavenly ppl that are gona be born in us.....Which answers to our new hearts and new spirits.....The H.G. The Children of Promise.....Flesh and blood are not the real Children of God ....Its only the Children of Promise that are counted for the good seed Roman 9:8 kjv.....Which are Spirits the H.G. Plural...I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh....Thus the sower and his seed, his words as my words are SPIRIT and Life.....The field is the world...But this New Covenant is gonna make us Gods.....To whom the word came ( the living word) it made them Gods and the scriptures.....Thats y the Prophets were saying what manner of love has the father bestowed on us.

Page 2. GiGi.

Though open to opinion, the best I've read is: "The difference may be explained from the fact that the real Jew already has a germinating faith from the completion of which, justification arises as fruit from a tree. The Jews are justified out of (Gk word 'ek' used for 'out of') the faith which their father Abraham had, and which they are supposed to have & demonstrate. However, the Gentiles must enter that door (of faith granted by the Spirit) and pass through it (Gk. dia) in order to be justified." (words in brackets are mine).

The Faith is the same for both, but the Faith of those pre-Cross were regarded by God that made their justification possible by Christ's Sacrifice. Whereas, Gentiles had no such heritage or even a Law to draw them to God, but needed the same faith (given by the Spirit now) to believe & accept this strange God & His Sacrifice of Love. The righteous of Israel already had faith, knew God & awaited that Sacrifice that would seal their justification. If you believe that the faith that Israel expressed was also given them by the Holy Spirit, then we have no proof of that; or that their ordinary faith expressed under the Old Covenant, including their obedience & their standing as God's Elect was accepted by God; again a lack of proof to support this, so we just have to leave that point for further research. But ultimately both secured their salvation & received full justification at the Cross & nowhere else. Thanks for your input.

Chris,

Thanks for further explanation.

I agree that there is much unsaid about the OT saints, and so we look to the NT to know how one is saved, whether Jew or Gentile.

Good morning Chris.

Once again, I must strenuously disagree with the quote that you referenced on page 2 of your comment to Gigi.

I would encourage you to go back and read the book of Jonah. Read it very carefully and pay particular attention to, first the message of Jonah, and secondly, the response to that message of the Ninevites. And we know for a certainty that 120,000 Ninevites were saved.

The Ninevites were not Jews. They new virtually nothing of the God of the Bible. But they recognize Jonas' message, not as the word of Jonah, but as the word of God Himself. And we know from the rest of the Bible, that this was not because the Ninevites were somehow wiser or more worthy than anyone else that becomes saved. They were in fact, an exceptionally wicked people. They were sinners just like everyone that God saves.

So what happened here? God had worked in their hearts to save them. And he caused them to respond as they did. Just as God has worked in the heart of every True Believer throughout history. Not because it was a certain time in history, or because they were a certain people in history; but because they were sinners in desperate need of a savior, and God in His Mercy had chosen to save them before the foundation of the world. And this is exactly the same Salvation that God worked in the hearts of Abel and Noah and Abraham and David, and every true believer that God has saved throughout time.

When I look at the sum total of your comments, I feel that you are proclaiming a different salvation plan for different peoples based upon their time in history and their knowledge of the Bible.

And I believe when we fragment the Scriptures and begin to proclaim a different gospel for different times in history and for different peoples of the world, we are walking on very dangerous ground.

Page 1.

Thank you for your comments David0921. I re-read the Book of Jonah & agree to some things you shared (the wickedness of the Ninevites & God's Judgement against them). But you wrote, "God had worked in their hearts to save them". I think that you meant that salvation from their sins would be their blessed end.

Looking at this Book, I learn: Jonah 1:2 (the wickedness of Nineveh had come before God & He planned for their destruction).

Jonah 3:2 (a command came a second time to Jonah to preach God's Word to them). Jonah 3:4 (Jonah's message of destruction, unless they repent & turn from evil). Jonah 3:5 (the people (& king vv 6-9) believed the message of coming destruction, repented & left off their evil ways). Jonah 3:10 (God recognized their repentance & renunciation of evil). And what did God do as a result? Were they granted salvation for their hearts of sin, or were they granted salvation from an impending destruction by God?

Moving forward to our Lord's time with the Jewish religious leaders; & to Matthew 12:38-42. Jesus spoke of the sign of Jonah (Christ in the grave), & "the men of Nineveh rising in judgement & condemnation against this generation". How could these Ninevites accomplish this? Because they heard, repented & obeyed God's Word of destruction against them whilst the Jews refused. And so also would the Queen of Sheba speak against this generation. These folk of Nineveh & Sheba would condemn the Jews for their rejection of Christ & His Message of repentance. The Ninevites repented & were not destroyed (unlike those of Sodom who faced utter destruction), but did their repentance grant them salvation & eternal life? If you read it as that it did, then I would say that I don't agree. Onto Page 2.

Page 2. David 0921.

I again revert to the matter that when our hearts are right before God then we are accepted. The OT folk, whether Abraham or the Ninevites, still had to maintain a right standing before God in faith, obedience, & hope - then the Blood of the Cross availed also for them. We today stand guilty, in danger of hell, but faith in Christ's Work makes us not guilty before God just as faithfulness to God & His Word would that carried those living pre-Cross to Calvary for salvation. Maybe some Ninevites, as Abraham, came before God with a true repentant worshipful heart, but salvation from destruction was only promised to the Ninevites, not salvation through Christ - that happened only to those whom God accepted; the Ninevites were only granted salvation from immediate destruction.

And I don't believe that I am fragmenting the Scriptures; I endeavor to take all Scriptures into account and to apply them pertaining to the Covenants, the times, the people, & the requirements by God upon them. God doesn't change, but the Covenants & especially the Cross have a direct bearing on how I approach the Scripture & how they affect man's position before God & God's acceptance of them. Every blessing.

Chris,

I have to say that I'm having great difficulty processing what you have stated regarding the 120000 Ninevites.

These Ninevites were saved by God from the Wrath of God and will experience eternal life with Christ in the New Heavens and New Earth just like every True Believer.

Why? Because like every True Believer, they were "saved" by Christ's Faithfulness in paying the full penalty for each and every sin they have ever committed. And they like every True Believer they were chosen, i.e. elected and predestinated, by God to Salvation before the foundation of the world. And their humbleness before God and their repentance from sin was the result of that Salvation.

We seem to have a very different understanding of what the Bible is teaching regarding the Nature of Salvation itself.

So I am going to leave it there and may God richly bless you.