Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

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That question would require us to further examine the merits of the New Covenant; but briefly to your question, I don't believe that the Spirit would again resurrect a Law upon us, one which has been superseded by the New. All that is contained in the New Covenant in Christ's Blood entirely covers all that the one in Christ needs to know & practise to please God. The Decalogue could never do this & was never intended to, even as we read in Galatians 3:21, "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." No Law could ever instil or even be the cause of righteousness to rise within us - and so Jesus' Coming was necessary, not only for the redemption of the sinner, but that sinner would never have to adhere to a set of Laws that only led to his eternal demise. Why should we then, we who have been revived, released, & given power to live in & by the Spirit, ever need to resort to the Letter that kills?

And you asked, "what Commandments(s) from God's 10 Commandments we are not required to follow now under the New Covenant? And why." The Decalogue is now abrogated through Christ's death, so none of the 10 Commandments with its purpose & penalties ever apply to the believer. Why? Simply because we have God Himself by His Holy Spirit in us to teach, lead, & empower us to know ALL His Commandments, which the Decalogue could never do - and was never designed to do. I always wonder, 'do believers actually understand this - really believing that the Spirit in them alone can fill us with much more than that old Law that was done away could ever do, with the advent of the New Covenant - that it is now perfectly fulfilled in Christ, Who fulfilled the Old entirely? Blessings.

Friend;

Jesus came not to abrogated the Law, but to fulfill it, Matt 5:17-20; & all who follow Him in the regeneration fulfills it too! For He is John 14:6; He leads us in the same path that He, Himself walk in, opening up the new & living Way for us, that we may 1 John 2:3-7; fulfilling all the requirements of the Law.

How is all of this accomplish? By picking up the Cross & following Christ in the regeneration unto the new birth. Both the dying indeed unto to sin by Grace appearance Rom 6:18,19; & by becoming partakers 2 Pet 1:4; through the exercising of the Gal 5:22-25; by Grace appearance. For He who show us what sin is & to be deny, also show us what righteousness is & how it is to be exercised. Rom 13:14;

This is what the Law couldn't do Gal 3:21-27; through the weakness of the flesh sold under sin, it couldn't restore us to the Life of God that we were created in. But the faith Rom 10:17; which is in Rom 10:8; that Paul preached could. Gal 3:2; obedience leads to ever increasing measure of His Spirit, an enduement of His Spirit of Grace, "Power".

The Law could not make us partakers of the Divine Nature, which against such there is no law, only with the coming of John 1:14; John 1:17; could this be fulfilled in us, through Christ by the Spirit in the new birth. Ephesians 2:15,16; He abolish it, by fulfilling it in His flesh, & so must all who are His, bringing us unto the new creature. Col 3:10;

"For when there was no one to help, not one to open the seals, Rev 5:1-5; to give knowledge, to direct the course of poor man's recovery, He came in the greatness of his love and strength; and though clothed with the infirmities of a mortal man, being within fortified with the almightiness of an immortal God, He traveled through all the straits and difficulties of humanity, and first, of all others, Hebrews 5:8; trod the un-trodden path to blessedness. Quote; No Cross, No Crown by William Penn"

Jesus has left nothing undone for us, we must follow His pattern.

Thanks Frankie J for your comments. The question then is, 'how do we fulfil all the requirements of the Law?" We know that Jesus truly did so; the only One Who did it perfectly & completely. But how do we do it?

Other questions: what is the meaning & implications of: the "New Covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"? ( Hebrews 8:13). And "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"? ( Hebrews 12:24).

When we compare the great worth of the Covenant that Christ brought us through His shed Blood, how do ever resort to any of the elements of the Old Covenant (whether the Ten Commandments or sacrificial requirements & observances)? The Old Covenant held men (Israel) in bondage leading to death - the New Covenant gave men liberty & eternal life, & to fully know & obey God by the working of the Holy Spirit in them. The contrast is exceedingly clear - maybe our minds are still caged into upholding a Law never designed to give us life.

Galatians 3:19: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." There was a time limit for the Old Law to Israel: "UNTIL THE SEED should come to whom the promise was made". And "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" ( Galatians 3:21).

I see that only Jesus could fulfil the Law & by His Death, bring in the New Covenant which abrogated that Old Law. The New Covenant administered by the Holy Spirit cannot be fused together with the Old Covenant that kept men bound to a yoke of strenuous law-keeping that gave no power to overcome & experience the joy of life in the power of the Holy Spirit. To the Jew, I think this release is truly life-changing - maybe not so to Gentiles, not given that Law.

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Hi Chris

How do we fulfill the requirements of the Law?

I've answered that fully in my previous opening statement, picking up the Cross & following Christ in the regeneration. The Way of death is the Way to receiving His life, & that more abundantly, by the Grace of God. The Law will ever be against the old Adamic nature, Rom 8:6,7;. The new birth could not be forth by the blood of bulls & goats, but Blood of Christ does, through the Eternal Spirit, the Power; making us partakers of the Divine Nature, its Rom 8:2-4; "might be fulfilled in us".

Other questions? We're a new creation, have the mind of Christ, the blood of the NC has fulfill it purpose, Gen 1:26;

1 Pet 1:2; the Blood & Life are synonymous, Leviticus 17:11; Christ Life was in His Blood which made it so very precious. Not only cleansing the flesh, but the conscience/heart. Hebrews 9:11-15; the eternal inheritance "the eternal Spirit", we too can offer up ourselves to God, He leads us in the very same path that He, Himself walk & empowering of the very same Spirit. Having cleansing us spirit, soul, & body in the regeneration, by entering Rom 6:4,5; We enter eternal life now, on earth as it is in heaven & in the end everlasting Life, the Blood of sprinkling, that speaks of better things than that of Abel..

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.. Quoting you; the NC gave mankind liberty, eternal life, & to fully know & obey God by the working of Holy Spirit in them; by such a statement you have had a change of heart, in believing one must be continually sinning against God for life. Praise God, for this is fully knowing & obeying God's will; John 8:11; 1 John 2:3,4;

Gal 3:19; the purpose of the Law

Was a tutor to all, to leads us to Christ, until the Seed came, birthing Faith; Gal 3:22; though the Gentile had not the written Law, yet as you stated to Cheryl1655, each person had the evidence of God's essential requirements in their heart, the law, our tutor, who would lead us to Christ & in obedience to this tutor, we come to the receiving of faith, which by the Spirit brings us to Gal 3:25-27; Rom 6:3,4; Gal 3:29;

You say "maybe our minds are still cage" I once was very much so, but am no more. 2 Cor 12:9;

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Thanks Frankie J. I did note your initial comment about 'how we fulfil the requirements of the Law'. Yet, the point I was trying to highlight is that we can never perfectly fulfil them, as Jesus the sinless One, did. The Law was never designed for men (Israel) to obey as God demanded - it only was given to show them their sin ("by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20). We can "pick up the Cross & following Christ", but only by the indwelling Spirit of God can the Law be fully known as God intended (the Decalogue in its given state couldn't do this), all our sin be exposed, & we can experience full forgiveness on the merits of Christ's Sacrifice.

Hebrews 8:13. I should have quoted from Hebrews 8:7-13, where to the House of Israel, a new Covenant will be made, not according to the old Covenant with their fathers. Had the old Covenant been without fault, there would be no need for the New. In this new Covenant, Israel will have God's Laws written into their hearts & minds, that which they had not had before this (future) time. And with the inception of this new Covenant, the Old will vanish away. I see that Israel, because of their blindness & hardheartedness, have yet to acknowledge the Savior of God & until they do & turn wholly to Him in faith, they will still be bound to the old Covenant. But to those IN Christ now, the new Covenant in Christ's Blood is already administered to us, where God's Laws are written upon our hearts & minds by His Spirit, that which Israel still waits for.

And so Jesus is the "mediator of this new Covenant", that speaks of God's Mercy towards the sinner & Grace to receive His forgiveness & healing, something that the shed blood of Abel was in total contrast. It only cried out for vengeance from the ground ( Genesis 4:10). The Old Covenant showed man his sin & God's Vengeance was upon him (but saved by the sacrifices); "but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ" ( John 1:17) & we now can receive unconditional pardon.

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Hi Chris

Quoting you (we can never fulfill the law perfectly,) this is against Scriptures, Rom 8:4; it doesn't state a little or mostly, but fulfill in Christ Jesus! He's the Head, we're His body.

I've notice you've left the word 'abrogated', out of this conversation, no doubt; after this enlightenment, yet your being shifty to your assertions, as you indirectly assert it again by Hebrews 8:13; deceitfully clever, whether you were mindful of it or not, the Lord know the intent of our hearts. The Law; is only vanish away if we are walking in the Spirit, Gal 5:16; If we sin, than the Law revives & the penalty of death ensues. Sin is not to be continue in, to be repeated over & over again for life, the holy writ says, Rom 6:11; through the exercising of the Word of His Grace/Righteousness, it, the sin nature in purge out as we remain confident, faithful & steadfast unto the end. Hebrews 10:36-39;

This liberty that you speak of in the NC, from the context of our previous conversation; your stated, to fully know & obey God's will, by the working of Holy Spirit in them, your stating this can be accomplish, now your being evasive in this statement also, Titus 2:7; Friend, your speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, James 1:8; James 3:11,12; this doesn't become godliness, truth in the inward parts & righteousness in either testament.

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The liberty that you indirectly or directly speaking of, is an allowance or plead to continue in sin, resulting in a form of godliness but denying the power to make you truly godly. Your book learning that you so greatly esteem, has veiled you to shun the cross. Rom 8:5; Philippians 3:3; Philippians 3:18,19; No wonder Holy Spirit led me into mentioning the cross in our previous discussion, which you says, you didn't understand why I would mention this as relating to our topic. John 1:5; Reread.

Sad to say, as of now, these things maybe hidden from you & according to your faith, so is it being done unto you, for how can an unclean faith bring forth a pure vessel, 2 Timothy 2:21;

God in His great love for you is reaching out to you, I have not spoken from myself, but waited for His counsel in all our conversations, this is O & NT pattern; I've spoken plainly & felt from the beginning in reading your testimony, that God has a future purpose for you, when a farmer plants a seed, it takes much nurturing & patience & pruning to bring about fruit, but it is only accomplish within us, by a sincere love for the Truth, especially when His two edged sword is facing towards us, this I have had very much experience in. There He will make us to know His wisdom that is from above. & yet, same sword that cuts, also heals, bless the Lord, don't allow His Seed to remain among thorns, Mark 4:7; Jeremiah 4:3,4; Rev 18:4;

Yes, Frankie J., I see we understand Romans 8:4 differently. The "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" to me means, that where the letter of the Law failed in that it couldn't produce righteousness in one's life, now we who live by the Spirit & not by the Law, will have the full & clear meaning & application of that Law placed into our hearts. How we respond to the Holy Spirit Who has placed the WHOLE Law (i.e. the Law that reveals righteousness) in our hearts is another matter about obedience. Whether or not we obey Him still does not deter from the fact that the righteousness contained within the Law has been given to us.

My not using 'abrogated' was intentional & not sneaky, as I try not to overuse words & phrases - yet the meaning should remain the same. Very perceptive of you to notice this.

And for the rest of your comments, I don't think I can adequately address them, as I note that you have not understood what I've said, hence you believe that I am "speaking from both sides of my mouth". And that's fine. I think if you've followed my other posts even from years ago, then the message & work of the Cross & the liberty we can enjoy as believers by life in the Holy Spirit, brings no contradiction or conflict. Where there can be conflict, is when I stand against an adherence to a Law never designed to give life, where the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit is never measured against the futility & temporariness of that Old Law, & when any claim of attaining a sinless life in the present is impossible in the light of the Scriptures, are raised.

And so with your closing words, I think that our understanding of God's Word in relation to these subjects at least, shows that in spite of the many Scriptures we've looked at, our understanding will always be at variance, & only further Light from the Spirit can reveal more & impress it upon our hearts. So God bless you Frankie J & I'll close this off here, as our writing has now drifted too far apart.

fig leaves

Page 2. Frankie J.

And I share in agreement with your comment from 1 Peter 1:2, etc.

But I don't believe that I have had a "change of heart" about the liberty we have in the new Covenant. I've never ever subscribed that a believer should ever think that it is right to live a life of sin, but when sin surfaces, he recognizes it for what it is, repents, & amends his ways with the Spirit's Help. I don't ever see that we can be sinless in this life, but we can deal with 'the sin that works in our members that wars against the law of our minds (what we know by the Spirit as the right way to live)' ( Romans 7:23). This war will always be with us - how we listen to the Spirit's Voice & take hold of His Enabling, will give either victory or defeat. But living a sin-filled & defeated life can never be the mark of one truly born again. Blessings.

Chris,

Thanks for the robust conversation. Yes, we will have to just disagree and move on, as I considered your beliefs and interpretation of the scripture but can't agree with you, without ignoring God, Christ, and ton's of scripture. I will always opt to follow God's word because we know Him if we keep his commandments, sin is the transgression of the law, God's words will never pass away.

Matthew 24:35

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

1 John 2:3

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

1 John 3:4

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

It is a marvelous and beautiful thing that God speaks in simple language for the simple person to understand his Gospel. Amen

GBU

Thank you Bros. Dan, Giannis & GiGi for your responses. I will get to them in due course as I'm unable to at the moment because of other commitments. Blessings to all.

[Comment Removed]

Bro Dan,, I agree with you that the 10 commandments are universal laws of moral conduct that is fitting for one who believes in God and follows Him. I do not think of these as being Jewish laws either. I think they were given to Israel because this was the nation that God chose to be the ones to be witnesses of God to the nations. They failed so miserably except for the remnant of Israelites who actually believed God as Abraham did and then the remnant of Jews who, in Jesus' day, believed Him, and after the resurrection and ascension, those of the Jews that believed the Gospel proclaimed by the apostles/disciples and committed their lives to Jesus.

I believe that God would not give us laws that were unimportant or amoral. The 20 commandments tell us how we should live in community and before God in a very basic level. Jesus expects us to follow these moral parameters for our godly conduct.

We do not follow the commandments to earn our way to God's favor or salvation. We follow the commandments because they are truly good and helpful to us spiritually and temporally for ourselves and others we interact with. They help us know a glimpse of how holy and pure God is and also how exacting He is concerning man's moral responsibility. We can never meet this requirement and be perfect. Only God is perfect. So we must cast ourselves on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us to stand before the Father perfect.

What Christian would think that it is ok to murder or steal or worship idols? We know that these things are immoral and not fitting for believers to do. Same can be said of all the other commandments of the decalogue. The Sabbath rest indeed is for man, not man for the Sabbath. So God deemed it good for man to rest from his work and toil each week. We should see this as a good thing for us to practice for our own good. Also, having a regular Sabbath rest is a way for us to show that we honor God by willingly following His will and commands.

see part 2

I mean 10 commandments, not 20. oops

Bro Dan,

Part 2

With that said, I do think that we are to not follow the regulations created by man as to what it means to keep the Sabbath. The Jewish leaders added many, many rules the people were to follow on top of the simple rule God laid out in the commandment to Moses and Israel. We are to rest from our regular work and toil. We are to take time to rest in Christ and commune with Him. We are to remember Him. We can do all of these things everyday to some degree. I am not one to insist that others keep the Sabbath in a uniform way. Each person should follow the Holy Spirit as to what is best for themselves and we are not to judge others on this matter. Isaih chapter 1 speaks of how God hated the Sabbaths and New Moon festivals, sacrifices, oblations, incense offerings made by the priests and celebrated by the Israelites. There hearts were far from the LORD and so their religious actions were called iniquity. We must be careful that we obey for all of the right reasons and none of the wrong ones that so characterized Israel when they came into the land and also the Jews of Jesus' day.

We must have a right spirit about our obedience to God. We are to offer up our lives to Him daily through loving Him and loving others. We are to desire to be transformed to be more and more like Jesus with each passing day, allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us and change us from glory to glory so that we will be a reflection of our LORD to others. Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath, and if we are in Him, we have the freedom that He had to pick grain on the Sabbath to satisfy hunger. ( Mark 2:23-28). It seems that Jesus was demonstrating that we are to be reasonable about what we do on the Sabbath, keeping it according to the Spirit and not according to the written letter.

Hi GiGi,

Thanks for your responses, and sorry about my late replay. I appreciate your input on this discussion and I believe we agree on most scripture, including God's 10 Commandments/Universal Moral Law, and how it applies in our lives as born again Christians.

I also agree that Jesus taught us how to deal with the Sabbath as opposed to how he saw the Jews dealing with it at that time. He didn't deny the the Sabbath, but rather put it in the right perspective as you correctly mentioned with Matt 2:23-28. Jesus also took possession of it - by stating that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Conversely, if Jesus didn't think it was necessary he could have simply said as much, but he didn't, he showed us how we should apply it in our lives. So I believe that the scriptures tell us that Jesus, the apostles, including Paul, and the Church did follow the Commandments and the Sabbath.

Gal 5:16 If we in fact truly walk with the Spirit , and worship God in Spirit - I believe we conform to all of God's commandments, as the Spirit will keep us on course. We will be aware of this, and when we deviate in sin, we can be forgiven through Christ, and get back up and walk in the Spirit. I believe our obedience to God's commands gradually becomes a lifestyle for us overtime.

So those that say they do not follow/adhere to God's 10 Commandments, seem to me, to be in conflict with walking/worshiping in the Spirit, because I believe God's Holy Spirit will stir us to keep His Commandments/Law, (written in our bodies and mind) and it will be impossible for a reborn Christian - not to follow - or want to follow Gods commands. I believe the Holy Spirit will continue work on Our Conscience to bring this about.

GBU

Saturday is the Sabbath so of course its not wrong to follow God's example for a day of rest. It's one of the 10 commandments!

Yes RyanL, it would be wrong to do so, because your first responsibility is to your employer or to your clients if you're self-employed. But if you can arrange to have Saturday off for some relaxation (and this is very important also) without affecting someone else's expectation of you, then use that time to relax, recuperate, even get into God's Word for some spiritual nourishment.