Jesus did not honor or even acknowledge Sabbath day, in fact, he made it a point to preach on Sabbath day and teach in the synagogues. It is man that created the Sabbath day not any doctrine of God. Have God in your heart seven days a week, you'll do fine.
I would agree with Adam's advice above, and I disagree with Chris on this issue.
You're asking a great question that all of us should be asking ourselves each day.Based on the scripture we should always be putting Christ/God FIRST in our daily lives - not last!
As a Christian if we are not putting God first, then we should reevaluate our priorities. Whenever you have an issue like this ask yourself: Are you living for the world - or are you living for God?
Mark 2:27
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"
God loves us so much, and He knows everything that we need to stay healthy, so he gave us a day of rest every week. The Sabbath Day is really a gift! He wants us to observe this blessed day to rest our bodies and minds, give thanks and commune with God and others, and use this time to regenerate ourselves - and refrain from our normal work day routines.
Bro Dan. Just to clarify: in my response to RyanL's brief question, I took it to mean that Saturday was like any day of the week & whether work or relaxation was the priority. I understand that you believe in following the Jewish Sabbath, which I do not hold to. Therefore, my answer was given on that basis (that RyanL wasn't asking about the Sabbath, but about a (any) Saturday) - but I think you may have gathered that. But if I were to believe in & practise Sabbath Day precepts, then even fishing & golfing would be unacceptable to me. Blessings.
Yes, I do honor and try to follow God's Sabbath Day. It is one of Gods Commandments. Please also notice God tells us specifically: To Remember to keep the Sabbath Day.
Exodus 20:8
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
When God instructs us To Remember Something why would we want to forget this?
Exodus 20:9
"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:"
He instructs us to rest one day! Is one day too much to ask? I don't know why so many Christians make such a big deal about following Gods Commands.
Ryan was asking about fishing or golfing. Fishing can be considered relaxation, if he is not a commercial fisherman doing it for a living. His fishing could be a way to relax and unwind from his work week. He would also have the perfect time to pray, give thanks for the time to spend in a relaxing manner enjoying all that God created around while waiting for that next fish to bite.. Golfing could be considered the same, as a relaxing pastime, maybe giving God thanks for the opportunity to breath in some fresh air, get some healthy exercise for the body and so these activities would not be considered work, but a relaxing pastime.
God simply instructs us to refrain from our work for one day! Is one day too much to ask? I don't know why so many Christians make such a big deal about following Gods Commands.
You state it is a Jewish Sabbath and you don't follow it. Well Jesus is Jewish, do you follow Jesus? Jesus also asks you the following:
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Remember, Christs followers are Jewish and Gentile, and we are all treated the same now, One Church, ONE GOD!
I read your latest response to mine but see that it has disappeared. But I would state that I have never put the Decalogue or any of the Commandments of God on an inferior level or lacking in Truth & with the full authority of God. That is never in question, even as Paul wrote in Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." And then as he continues in that chapter, that the Law, that was "good", was meant to show the exceeding sinfulness of his corrupt nature. He wouldn't have seen this in such light as a good devout Pharisee (i.e. such words could never come out his mouth); but now as one who has experienced re-birth, he can say 'that my eyes are opened to see what the purpose of that Law was'. Israel then, as now, cannot see what Paul saw; their obedience to the Laws before them (at least by the devout amongst them today), are what they expect to carry them through to blessing & eternity.
Therefore, I raised Romans 8:1-4 for your consideration. I was hoping in your comment to me, you would also refer to this very telling portion of Scripture that must apply to & affect every true believer, cutting deep into the heart. Again, Paul stated that the Law was limited in what it could achieve. Their words & one's diligent obedience to them could never give a person cleansing or the sure hope of eternal life - if it could, then Jesus should not have suffered & died. The Law failed miserably, as far as snatching the sinner from judgement. The Law was good & came in the Power of God but its purpose was limited in regards to salvation. Only through Jesus Christ & His Gift of the Holy Spirit could the "righteousness of the Law" be applied & fulfilled in the believer. Should then the believer go back & hang onto that Law, when the Law given by the Spirit, giving life in Christ Jesus, frees a sinner from a Law that only gave death? Sabbath-keeping can only be by choice - never by commandment & never to be imposed upon another.
I see you have removed your answer to me but I am still going to answer your points.
Moses' Law consists in general of 1. the Moral Law of which the 10 com/nts were a sort of summary 2. com/nts that had to do with the way the Hebrews should serve the Lord ie priests, sacrifices, the Temple, etc, 3. the State Law ie how Hebrews should govern their state, 4. Laws about feasts etc, 5. other Laws that regulate the relations of people within their community and many more.
Of course the Moral Law in general is still valid in the new form that Jesus has taught, see Matthew 5.
But what has to do with how Hebrews worshipped God has been cancelled. Why? Because all those things served as a shadow of things to come, ie the Temple of Solomon where God had His eyes on has become the Temple of our body where God (His Spirit indwells. Sacrifices of animals have been substituted by the sacrifice of the Lamb. There aren't now a specific people who are priests, all of us are now priests and kings and so on.
There are no feists and special holidays now like Pentecost, like Passover, etc also shadow of new things.
Christian Law is not any more a State Law, Jesus has separated the Moral Law from the State Law, ie offer to Ceasar what belongs to him and God what belongs to Him. Christianity should not be involved directly with politics by trying to enforce its views to others although we can influence them for better (this is a big issue that a lot can be said).
Many com/nts in the old Law about relations between people are now abandoned like divorces, like marrying more than one woman and other that were expressing societies of the 15-20th century BC.
About Sabbath now. The Sabbath was not just a rest day during the week. It was. a COMPULSORY holiday with many regulations about what is and what is not permitted. Sabbath was also the 7th year. There was also the Jubilee year. Paul makes it clear that we are not to keep those any more, he calls them " weak beggarly elements". Of course there should be rest days during the week and it is really good we have 2 days now instead of one, and vacations from our work etc. But there is a huge difference between Sabbath and Sunday. Sunday is just a rest day, it is not compulsory, there isn't anything we should avoid or should do. The early church selected the next day to Sabbath as the formal day for worshipping God, see the History of the Church. In doing that they tried make sure that those old things would not enter Christianity. The main danger for Christianity in those early years were Hebrew habits entering the church . And we see that,say, in the R/Catholic church where they have priests, celebrations and other which should not exist.
This is my point of view brother and if I haven't convinced you it is OK. I am not to insult you anyway. Thanks for your reply although you removed it.
I appreciate your feedback, and all of your input. Sorry for the late reply, The 2 posts that I deleted, (1) to you, and (1) to Chris was by accident. I could not see the 2 posts in the thread but could see them in my comments listed as waiting. It had been many hours so I thought I would copy those posts and then delete - and repost. In the process I lost the original posts, so I'm beginning to formulate new replies to repost. So I'm getting backed up a bit. I reposted to Chris, and now here for you. GiGi is also in queue.
For the most part I believe we are in agreement on most issues surrounding the ceremonial laws which have faded away, and God's 10 Commandments/moral laws are still in affect for Christians today. Jesus said as much, and even emphasized how intricate these laws are Matt 5:28 to open are eyes so that we can be very aware of our sin, and to repent, and refrain from our sin.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind per the New Covenant.
So in summary; I believe that a saved Christian will be following and applying God's Commandments in their lives via the conviction of God's Holy Spirit.
It is true that Moses' Law asked Hebrews to observe the Sabbath.
But as Paul says in Galatians 3:24 the Law served as a schoolmaster (although "tutor and guardian for childs" is a more accurate translation of the grk "paidagogos") which leads people to Christ. That means that many things in the Old Law served as a shadow for things to come in the New Covenant, they served as a figure for the real things to come. So circumcision of the flesh is figurative for circumcision of the Heart (new birth), sacrifice of animals were a figure fot Jesus' sacrifice ... and so on.
Paul in Galatians 8-11 says "8. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9.But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10.Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11.I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
And in Collossians 2:16-17 he says, "16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (FOR NOT HOLDING THEM): WHY NOT PAUL? BECAUSE 17.Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ"
Remenber when the apostles gathered in Jerusalem to discuss about the gentiles following or not the Law. They came up with a conclusion. What was that conclusion? Acts 15:28-29, "28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29. That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
You see brother nothing to keep from the Old Law but only the above.
Besides Jesus said in some place that my Father works until now and so am I. God hasn't really gone to rest after the creation but works till now for the salvation of people.
Thanks Bro. Dan. We've been here before. So "why do so many Christians make such a big deal about following God's Commands." Can't answer for others, but I see that all of God's Commands (whether the Decalogue, or the myriad of other Laws & regulations), applied only to the Jews - for their instruction & performance. None of that applied to me as a Gentile. And none of those laws given to Israel are expected to be recognized by Gentiles. If Jesus didn't come & give His Life to redeem us to God, then as a Gentile hearing of such Laws that God required obedience, might place on me some conviction & responsibility to keep them so as to appease/please the God of Israel.
So the Decalogue, for example, was given to a specific people for a specific purpose. If I relied only on it to give me finite rules for obedience, then I would fail God. If the command said, "Thou shalt not kill" & I obeyed it & never murdered, then I could say that I had fully kept that commandment. And that is how Israel would have understood it. But Jesus then came on the scene & taught His disciples what 'murder' meant ( Matthew 5:21-24). So here we now have that connection between the old Law that only condemned & brought death ( Romans 7:4-6) & now the Deliverer, through His Sacrifice, Who has "delivered us from the lawthat we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".
If one believes that the Decalogue is still binding, that's their choice. But my belief is that those in Christ (of Jew & Gentile) are far beyond the Decalogue & are now indwelt & led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:1-4), that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us". My reference can never be to the Decalogue, only to the Holy Spirit who interprets the whole Law, pertaining to life & godly living, helping me to obey & giving power to live it - which the Old Law could never do. I ask, 'why should I go to a system that could never give life, or even syncretize it with the Law of the Spirit'?
I understand, and you've related your position that you don't feel the need to follow God's 10 Commandments (The Decalogue as your refer to it). You state that it is only for the Jewish People. Conversely, I truly believe the scripture solidly supports that the 10 Commandments were for all of mankind, a moral law, a law that tells everyone what sin is. When God made the New Covenant He said I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Jer 31:33. Same Law.
When Jesus came, he said he did not come to abolish the Law, he came to fulfill it.and Jesus followed the law and I believe that he does expect those of us that follow Him, to follow these same Laws, as He states this in so much scripture throughout the bible.
Ecclesiastes 12:13"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This verse doesn't say for this is the whole duty of the Jewish people. It says: for this is the whole duty of man!
Regarding the 4th Commandment: Keep Holy the Sabbath. Mark 2:27"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Here again, this verse does not say the sabbath was made only for Jewish/Hebrew people.
I will leave you with one last verse, that I believe is targeted at those of us that wish to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Thanks Bro. Dan for re-posting that previous comment. Looking at it more closely, these are my observances/responses.
Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.
Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).
Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.
And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.
As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU
Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.
Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.
Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.
And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.
Thank you for your responses to those Scriptures, Bro. Dan. I guess we will have to leave off interpreting those Scriptures, indeed all that speak of the Law, since we'll never come to agreement of which Law, its timing & purposes, that is being referred to.
But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).
And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.
Thank you for bearing with me in this lengthy post.
In verse 6, Paul sums his point up by stating that to live according to the sinful nature (carnality or fleshly) is death. Disobedience always kills. But, he says, that to be spiritually minded (living by the Spirit and the Spirit's law of life) is life and peace (with God and personally at peace).
So what Paul is contrasting in these verses is not the holy Law of God and the life of the Spirit. He is contrasting the law that is at work in us ( Romans 7:7-13 identifies sin as the culprit, not the Holy Law.) "The Law is "spiritual" "hoy, and "just" and "good
(Verse 7:12;14) Paul identifies the law of sin and death as what he speaks of in Rom. 7:22-23, not as the Law of God, but as another law.
So, Chris, I do not think in any way that Paul was speaking of the holy Law of God as being the law of sin and death because he identifies the law as good that he delights in in verse 7:22 and the law of sin and death as "another law" in verse 23.
To sum up:
The holy Law of God is good, just and holy and desirable for regenerated people. However, it condemns those who break it.
The law of sin and death is another law that came into effect when the holy law is transgressed through our sinful nature (the flesh) This law brings in reality condemnation upon those who sin.
Therefore, sin all men have sinned and fall short of God's glory and righteous requirements for anyone to have relationship with Him, the law can never bring us into this relationship, being powerless to save us from our sins.
The law of the Spirit is the power to walk in Him in obedience, having been regenerated and saved from our sins through Jesus.
Believers will desire to live according to the will of God by the work of the Holy Spirit, and will, with the Spirit's help, resist the desires of the sinful nature.
Thank you GiGi - I appreciated your insight into those Scriptures that I find invaluable in any discussion as we've been having here.
I can't disagree with what you've shared, as I too, see that all of God's Laws are holy, special, & pertinent to knowing the Will of God & pleasing Him by following them. I also understand the passages you shared, viz Romans 7:22,23 & Romans 8:1-5, in a similar way as you, except to highlight these points:
a. In Romans chap 8: "the law of sin & death" (v2), I don't see it as simply as being freed from "the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God". This is certainly true that the witness of our new lives in Christ is evidence of no longer standing condemned before God. But Paul writing, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh", strongly suggests that "what the law could not do" by its weakness (inability) in its successful working in sinful flesh, refers directly to the Decalogue, which really is the Law of sin & death, or we can read it as 'the Law that reveals sin & ultimately leads to death'.
After we have been freed from the limitations & constraints of such a Law, the righteousness that is contained in that Law (v4), might yet be fulfilled in us. And how is this possible? Only by the Spirit's application & enabling us to perform it in our lives. On its own, the Law was totally incapable of doing this - it wasn't given for that purpose - just to show sin & its severity & permanence. The Israelite who truly loved God & desired to please Him would have been tormented by the magnitude of his sins, as the Law in simple terms showed him, & if it were not for those sacrifices proving that God still heard their cries & promised to cover their sins for that time, the Israelite would have found no relief at all. Onto Page 2.
So, I read that the Law of the Spirit of Life IN Christ Jesus is the New Law found in the New Covenant that superseded the Old - one that only revealed sin but incapable of how to be cleansed & to live in joy & victory.
b. Romans 7:7-13,22,23: I agree that there is "another law in my members" that wars against the mind; or another principle initiated by sinful corruption that is constantly at war with the enlightened enlivened knowledge of sin's depravity in a believer's life. Yet here, Paul is writing about his personal struggles with sin nature's drawing power & his battle to gain victory over it. Only through Jesus Christ can he find rest & victory (v25), yet in the meanwhile, the battle will always rage. I too don't see Paul in judgement of God's Laws at all, rather with his personal battle with sin (the 'other law' of sin vs spirit (mind) raging within). Paul's view of God's Laws was always of the highest order - it's the application of it to his life that was irrelevant, when he viewed himself as now controlled & obedient to the Spirit & not to the Law that only brought death.
So, I think that you can see the difference I make in considering the position of the Decalogue in the life of a believer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Truth & desired outcome that it brought, but it's irrelevance to the Spirit-filled, Spirit-led believer is now important. Had the Person & Work of the Spirit simply been a force or energy of God, as some would erroneously believe, then yes, we definitely need to grasp onto anything (any Law) that would help us to know God's Will & be obedient to Him. But thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gifts to us in Christ Jesus & His Holy Spirit, so that the letter, which kills, now is obsolete with the coming of the Spirit Who gives life & power to live according to ALL the Laws of God.
I trust you will have read my responses to others, as I've tried not to be repetitious here. Every blessing dear sister.
Rom 7:21-23, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
The law of sin and death IN MY MEMBERS, the law of sin WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS. So Paul talks not about the Law of God but our sinful nature and its grasp.
I think you got it right (as far as I am concerned) in explaining that God's grace frees people not from the Law but from God's condemnation for breaking it. jesus paid the penalty for that instead of us so now we are free from condemnation. Well said.
But, as Paul says in verse 3, God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world, by creating a human body for Him and giving Him a human nature like every other human, but without the sinful nature. Jesus was sent specifically for the sinfulness of humans. His coming was to condemn sin in the flesh of all humans in His own sinless body because He alone was righteous and had the standing and power to and the holiness to take the judgment of humanity's sin upon Himself on the cross, satisfying the condemnation our sin brought through His sacrifice and holy blood. This work of Christ does what the Holy Law could never do, it saves us from the condemnation of our sins forever. His work exchanged our sinfulness for HIs righteousness so that we can have right standing before the Father. Being God and man, Jesus was the perfect Savior, completely untainted from personal sin, but, due to His divinity, He could judge sin and remove it from us without Himself being forever tainted by it. He overcame it by taking upon Himself to destroy it and its effects. He had the power and authority as God to do this.
Paul goes on in verse 4 to say that Jesus did this so that the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us both by receiving His righteousness before the Father, but also that we will walk in a newness of life in the Spirit because we can now walk after the things of the Spirit, (which would be things that the Decalogue has instructed us to live by as well as the additional commandments laid out for us by our Lord.)
Lastly, in verse 5, Paul contrasts the sinful life of the unregenerated to the renewed and godly life of the life of the Spirit. Those who are regenerated will have their minds set on what the Holy Spirit wills, which is always righteous, and will resist the sinful nature (the flesh) in this new life in Christ.
This is an interesting thread that has taken many turns already. I just want to speak to what Paul refers to as the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2. In reading verses 1-5 I see that Paul is speaking of several things.
He is speaking of the freeing of us by the Holy Spirit from the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God. It does not say that we are freed from the Holy Law, but of the condemnation it pronounces upon us when we sin.
He speaks of the Holy Spirit in us causes us to walk according to the will of the Spirit and to not walk according to the sinful nature. (which he calls "the flesh"). So when we yield to the work of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to do what God wills, which would be doing what God has determined to be pure and moral (as the 10 commandments teach us what this is).
Paul goes on to say that the Holy Sprit teaches us the law that gives life (forgiveness, no condemnation, grace, eternal life, in and through Christ Jesus). This new life frees us from the law of sin and death. I understand the law of sin and death to be the aspect of God's holy judgment that always brings death to all who sin rather than speaking of the holy Law of God which shows us God's moral will.
Then in verse 3 he says that what the law could not do, (the holy commands of God could not make us righteous because we will break them whenever we sin, which brings the judgement of sin and death to all who sin). Our sinful nature makes it so that we cannot be perfectly righteous perfectly and always doing what is right according to God's will and law. The Law of God cannot make us righteous nor clear us of our sin, nor remove the condemnation for our sinning against it. It can only bring condemnation upon every person because none of us keep it wholly and perfectly all the time. We cannot do this. And the Law cannot save us.
A few weeks ago I was going through Matthew 5,6 where Jesus gives some commandements to His disciples. Then He tells them not to worry about their needs because God will provide for them. And in verse 6:33 He says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". You see brother seeking to obey God's com/nts is actually seeking His righteouness and His Kingdom. God righteouness is not only Jesus' sacrifice but a part of it is our strive to obey His Law.
There are 2 opposite theories in Christianity. The first one, at the one extreme end, says that we need to do a whole load of works to please God and get saved. The other extreme, I think it is called hypergrace (hyper is grk fot the Latin super), that is a supergrace which surrounds christians, so say I can sit on my couch at home and watch an erotic movie and still the grace of God floats around me. Which one is right? None.
Where is the truth? In between. There is a part that a man does and a part that God does. Our part is to strive to live righteously and God's part is to provide for me Jesus' Blood when I fail in my struggle to accomplish His Law. This is how God's righteouness is fulfilled. No result can be obtained if any of those parts is missing. We can do nothing without God's grace and God can do nothing if we don't repent for our sins IN OUR STRIVE TO LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY. This is the narrow road
I wii not tire you too much. What are God's com/nts? I mean, are they what God calls righteous, what he likes, wishes, whar are they really? They are what He would do in such cases. Primarily the com/nts represent God's character. What God asks us to do is what He would do under the same circumstances. Love your enemy...because your Father in Heaven loves them...to become His children. The importance of God's commandements and us knowing & obeying them is of unspeakable importance.
If I misunderstood your post I am very sorry, forget my post
Thank you brother Giannis for your fine post. And I do agree with what you've written, not having tired me at all in my reading of it.
It is my belief that Christians are generally absorbed by the fact that if God has spoken anywhere in the Bible then those words must apply to all of us today. And that is true to an some extent, but as you would also know, the Word must be rightly divided. If God commanded the Israelites to go into Canaan & destroy all the heathen Gentiles there, we clearly don't use that command to do likewise in our own or nearby lands. So we then conclude that only God's Moral Laws (leaving aside the 4th Commandment!) that we obey because they must apply to us, but not those commands that were Israel-specific, prophet-specific, etc.
What I maintain, & from my reading & study of the Word, is that we must look beyond the letter of the Law delivered by God, but to rightly include the reason for the giving of the Law, to whom it was delivered, its limited time frame, & intended results of blessing or punishment. I agree that the Old Mosaic Covenant, which included the Decalogue, was a shadow of the New, but I see that when I include not just the mighty Commandments therein, but also consider & apply these other factors listed above, then the whole package of the Decalogue takes on a completely different understanding. And this is an understanding, if I were to avoid, would continue to wrestle with my spirit & knowledge, not giving me peace. So this is why I come on very strong on this matter, because the Decalogue was something I was taught from a young age, but now in my revived spirit state, find that the Word of God gives me much more to help understand the matter more fully. Onto Page 2.
But this as I said is not an automatic process. One has to want to follow God's Law and strive in prayers, and not only in prayers, but in reading the Word of God, in having communion with other believers, attending a congregation where the ministries given by God work, in other words by having a decent christian life. Also by avoiding doing sins, what we feed ourselves that we will become. Is one feeds himself say with sinful movies which include violence then they can't expext that they grow in love and peace and sanctification, can they? This is a very brief summary. Where I want to come to is that the Spirit of God cleans us as much as we allow Him to clean us. He doesn't force us, He doesn't overcome our freedom and will and choises. He goes as far as we allow Him to go. That is why in the parable of the Seed one field produces 30, the other 60 and the other 100. So it is not an auto pilot that one puts in his car and then the thing goes on its own. So first one has to read the Bible and see what God expects from them and then try to make that a reality in their life using God's grace which will produce a fruit in their life. And this is not done overnight, it takes a whole lifetime to succeed, to any degree one succeeds it.
Well brother I hope I haven't confused you, I am not that fluent in English and I strive to express my thoughts and often the result is not that successful. If I misunderstood your post, then sorry about that.
Thank you once again brother Giannis for your great & important comments & your expressions in English are perfectly understood. I must say that I do agree with what you've shared & the thought of how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life caused me to pause & reflect a while. Since we are blessed with having God's Word in our hands, having congregations to attend, pastors/elders to lead & teach, & people to encourage & pray for us, are all truly God-given so that we might be well formed & informed completely according to God's Will.
I then wondered, what about those who don't enjoy what we have now? Those who live under communist regimes where Bibles & gatherings are forbidden; those in prison, or converted there, who have little else than a Bible or NT; those currently being persecuted & killed (a little published fact of what's going on, especially in two States in India, where over a hundred Christians now dead because of Hindu militants, many Church buildings razed to the ground, Bibles destroyed, & believers fleeing for their lives - with the Hindu govt. doing nothing about it); & other situations where the ministry that we enjoy now is absent for many.
How does the Holy Spirit work in these varied people & situations they're in? I believe that when there is a dearth of spiritual help & guidance, the Spirit can minister in greater measure - for God is not limited in how He reveals Himself & the application of His Word to a person. Yet, the Spirit still helps us in spite of all that is available to us, so that we can correctly learn & discern between Truth & error & approach Him confidently with our needs & struggles. Onto Page 2.
With obedience to the Law, as is our subject here, yes, we could adhere to the Decalogue & if that is all we had, including the other Laws that built up from it, we have a clear set of rules to live by. And yet I find, that those rules don't even come within a hair's breadth to all that the Lord requires & expects of us to live holy before Him, dealing with all our sin.
Hence, my reliance is not on what the letter gives (& that which was given to Israel), but to the Spirit, Who makes God's Laws (all of it) real & applicable to my situation & understanding - something the Old could never do. So, I do see the Holy Spirit's Work as all-encompassing: where there is any lack to physical resources of the Word & Fellowship, He will minister; where there is any lack to understanding the full depth & breadth of sin, He will reveal it, alert us, even deal with us in Love; where it seems that loneliness or the world's rejection is our lot, He will be the Comfort & Help that we need. He will minister according to the need in our lives that we should have no fear or concern that God has forgotten us - for He is our sufficiency, our All in all. Every blessing.
I do agree with all you have written in your last comment brother Chris. As far as that, "that those rules don't even come within a hair's breadth to all that the Lord requires & expects of us to live holy before Him, dealing with all our sin."
The above is very true but I believe God will take in Heaven christians who are sanctified but probably not perfect. There is a difference between sanctified and perfected, One may have not become perfect but they are striving to live holy and when they fail they get cleaned up (sanctified) with Jesus' Blood.
You have explained well. Whereas we as believers did learn from and early age the commands of God that we were expected to follow because He saved us and we love Him, so we teach our own children from a young age to obey God also. This is good parenting and what we certainly should do. As we grow in grace and knowledge of God through the taking in of His Word, the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification changes us to become more and more Christ-like, (who obeyed ALL of the commands of the law and the will of His Father. We are to imitate Him in our godly conduct because doing so glorifies Him, witnesses of Him to others, and creates in us godly character so that we can love Him with all our being and to love others by avoiding to do harm to them in any way. We train our minds and hearts to think on the things Philippians 4 tells us to occupy our minds with which will crowd out the thoughts and inclinations that come from our sinful nature. We take every thought captive to the word of God, which is a command given us by God through Paul.
Yes GiGi, well said. We christians, the children of God, have to grow spiritually from being babies in Christ (when we come in the faith) to mature men, Ephessians 4:13, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"
God asks us to love Him more than anything or anybody else. Why? Because 1. He deserves it, and 2 this is our assurance that we will never leave Him and that we will keep walking the narrow path till the end. In the Bible there are many examples of people who although started their godly life well, afterwards their deceitful heart loved something else more than Him and led them away from God. In the parable of the Seed, Jesus warns us not to let our ambitions and pleasures of this life to fill our heart. If yes then our field will become fruitless. There is a moto in the world lately, "Follow your heart". How wrong it is if our heart drives us away from our creator.
My perception then, is that believers generally aren't looking at this matter in such a way. Why? Because it is believed & unquestionably accepted that 'these are clearly God's Commands, written in the Word for us, therefore they are relevant & must be obeyed; end of story'.
But that is not the full story given to us from the Word. If we focus only on obedience to a very very basic set of Commandments to adhere to & we deny the Work of the Spirit in our lives, we would certainly fail. Likewise, if we want to include the Decalogue along with the Spirit's Ministry to show us our sins that are outside or beyond those original parameters, then does the Spirit ever negate what was given in the Decalogue? In other words, does the Spirit's Ministry not also include the Ten Commandments, making them, as all other Words from Him, very special & applicable to us personally?
Then one more thing which perplexes me: if we hold the Decalogue in such high esteem as to say it is very relevant to us today & should not be dismissed, why do most Christians reject the 4th Commandment & give excuses for not obeying it or changing the name or day to suit them? The Decalogue is a complete package from God (to Israel) - not one Command should be broken; it's a case of accepting or rejecting the whole - not dissecting it to suit them or us. As I've mentioned before, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that Old Law - it is simply not relevant to the one in Christ now, & for the Jew especially, finding welcome liberty from a Law that could never give him cleansing, victory, & assurance of eternity. And for those of us who are "without the Law" & also the Jew now in Christ, we need only look to & rest upon the Spirit of Grace & Peace, to lead us perfectly through life, teaching us ALL that the Father requires of us to please Him - something the Old Law could never achieve nor designed to do. GBU
Generally speaking I do agree with what you have written, with most of it. It is true that in the N.T. the moral law of God is not limited in those 10 (9) commandments, there is more, and I don't think that any of those 9 is not valid any more. Actually in the O.T. there were more than the Decalogue, those were a summary or the main ones or some commandements that were representative of that moral law.
Now, nowadays. If we limit our knowledge to what the Spirit of God produces in us then we could say that we have no need to read the Bible or that apostle Paul was wrong to write instructions to churches including suggestions about what to do and what to avoid. Yes, one could say that most of them is common sense, even unbelievers could have thought of them. But it is also true that the Word of God works as food, milk in the beggining, meat later on. So we need it to grow spiritually.
How does the Spirit works in us? The Spirit produces its fruit which is love, joy, peace... But is this an automatic process? The way I understand it: I have to look to what God expects from me firstly. How is that done? It is done by reading His Word which includes His moral law which represents His righteouness. Then when I have that knowledge I strive to do that in my life. How is that done? At first I do what I am able to do. Secondly, where I saw that my limits are beyond what God expects from me (who can say that love their enemy?) then I asked God's grace which means that I srtive in prayers by getting filled with God's Spirit. To be clear I give an example. When I see that I get upset and angry easily and although I strive to overcome my anger still I am not able to do it, then I go to prayer and I say to God, "Dear Lord this is my limit, my ceiling, can't get higher than that, please help me", and I stay in prayer getting filled with God's Spirit which gradually produces a fruit inside me, and that fruit grows and grows...
You have written very good comments so far on that topic (God's commandements), but i do have an objection about a statement you have done, which is "I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow". If the set of rules you were referring to is things like Sabbath then we are in agreement. But if you mean in general God's commandements I am on the opposite site.
Let's see the 2 Covenants. The Old one is a shadow for the New one, which means that animal sacrifices worked as a figure for Jesus' sacrifice. So as far as the way of justification of people is concerned those two Covenants are completely different. But as far as the Moral Law that accompanies both Covenants is concerned the New one is, let's use a modern word, an upgrade of the Old one. Because there are moral laws that accompany the New Covenant as well the Old one.
But let's go through another way.
What does it mean that we are justified by God. It means that in front of God's eyes we are considered as righteous people.
How is that done? It is done through Jesus' sacrifice.
When are we justified by God? When we repent and ask for forgiveness through Jesus' Blood.
Repent for what? For the sins we have done (and still doing).
What is sin, what defines what sin is? God's Law, God's commandements.
So obeying God's commandements is of a huge importance to Christians. Breaking those com/ments is sin.There is a moral law in New Testament, God's commandements, which are of an extremely high importance, there are not to be given a secondary place in our doctrines. And how do we know those com/ments? Because we read them in the Bible. I don't think there is anybody who claims that the Spirit of God teaches them personally (like it was done to apostle Paul), so they don't need to read the Bible.
I feel we are much closer in agreement than we may think. I'm sure you'll agree we have always needed God's laws to live peaceably, and safely. This has not changed throughout the ages. Without Laws, societies break down and self destruct. Over the centuries, many societies laws have been based to some degree on God's 10 Commandments.
It is true that in the OT man had God's Commandments/Laws and could not refrain from sin on their own, which resulted in Death. Thanks to Jesus and the Cross, we are under God's New Covenant, and per the scripture we have those same laws written in our bodies and minds. What is different now is we have the Holy Spirit to help us refrain from sin in a New Way that was not available before Jesus. Same Laws - New way to follow the same commands - which will result in Life Now - instead of Death previously. And we are not accomplishing this on our own. and it is only by the Holy Spirit in us that can save us from Death. Amen
John 14:26
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Let me put it another way, would the Holy Spirit guide us - to not follow God's 10 Commandments? I don't think so, and I think we should be able to agree that if we are being led by God's Holy Spirit we will be motivated to follow God's 10 Commandments. Chris, I would like you to answer one question. Please tell me what Commandments(s) from God's 10 Commandments we are not required to follow now under the New Covenant? And why.
I appreciate your comments Bro. Dan; and yes, God's Laws were essential then, as it is now, not only to understand the Mind of God & His Will for mankind, but also that we might live righteously before Him & with all due consideration for others. And true, societies & govts have created their own laws largely based on what was learned from God's Word, or for those "without the Law", on the natural instincts & inclinations of their minds, doing what they believed was right for their societies. Of course, many of those Laws have since been altered, even mangled, because man has preferred to continue to follow his own inclinations from sin-gripped minds & persuasions & pressures from others, instead of adhering to what is good & right.
So what does a believer in Christ do now, who has heard of, understands, & uses the Decalogue as a measure against the state of his own understanding & life's practises? Had the Holy Spirit not been sent to indwell & minister in the believer to guide him comprehensively to doing all of God's Will in his life, then yes, he must resort to that Law as his sole Standard, & very much so to include the 4th Commandment. And let's not forget, that just as obeying that Law is imperative, so also the penalties, or else what would the Law serve, if only a nice abridged set of rules for living without consequences for disobedience?
I won't again raise the matter of that Law given solely to Israel: I have raised it before with you. But on the matter of either fully accepting the Law, fully abiding by it, & to suffer the consequences for disobeying it (as we read in the Bible), then how do we stand before God? You asked, "would the Holy Spirit guide us - to not follow God's 10 Commandments?" Onto Page 2.
The person of the Holy Spirit is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person. As a Person, as JESUS was in flesh and bones, he is completely unknown, and he has several missions, as JESUS said: John 16:12-15 & 8-11:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father has are mine:therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,and shall shew it unto you.
8 When he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of Judgment, because the prince of this world is Judged.
WOULDN'T THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BE THE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:32 - THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE BROTHER OF JESUS?
- The Person of he Holy Spirit has not genealogy as JESUS has; why? Because he is not a Jew.
- The NAME of JESUS is known of men, and is also known of the angels, and He is known of the demons too. But the person of the Holy Spirit has a NAME written that no MAN knows, but he himself. He has not genealogy as JESUS has.
- JESUS came from heaven and He was born in Israel. John 6:v.38 - I came down from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
In other hand, the prophetic birth of the person of Holy Spirit is not in Israel, its in a Gentile nation.His birth is within the body of Christ-the Church-and as JESUS said, he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that he speaks, he shall receive of mine, he shall take of mine.
JESUS existed before the world was, the person of HS is the ancient of days
Hello Oseas. Your comment was quite confusing. You wrote, "wouldn't the person of the Holy Spirit be the younger brother of Jesus - the lawful/legitimate brother of Jesus?" And then you wrote, "the person of the HS is the ancient of days".
Without getting into the lengthy Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, what are you writing here? Is the Holy Spirit referred to as the Ancient of Days, or is He the 'younger brother of Jesus'? As you study this important Doctrine & continue to read the Word, you will find that the Holy Spirit is neither - The Holy Spirit is a Person of the Godhead (the One God), where the Eternal God (the Ancient of Days) has sent forth His Holy Spirit (i.e. from within Himself) to indwell believers & God has sent forth His Word (in Human form as Jesus Christ, the Incarnate One) to redeem sinful man to Himself. So we see the Triune God reaching out completely to a fallen race of people to secure their redemption & love - just as He has loved us & that love compelling Him to act in such a manner.
I would agree with Adam's advice above, and I disagree with Chris on this issue.
You're asking a great question that all of us should be asking ourselves each day.Based on the scripture we should always be putting Christ/God FIRST in our daily lives - not last!
As a Christian if we are not putting God first, then we should reevaluate our priorities. Whenever you have an issue like this ask yourself: Are you living for the world - or are you living for God?
Mark 2:27
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"
God loves us so much, and He knows everything that we need to stay healthy, so he gave us a day of rest every week. The Sabbath Day is really a gift! He wants us to observe this blessed day to rest our bodies and minds, give thanks and commune with God and others, and use this time to regenerate ourselves - and refrain from our normal work day routines.
GBU
Exodus 20:8
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
When God instructs us To Remember Something why would we want to forget this?
Exodus 20:9
"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:"
He instructs us to rest one day! Is one day too much to ask? I don't know why so many Christians make such a big deal about following Gods Commands.
Ryan was asking about fishing or golfing. Fishing can be considered relaxation, if he is not a commercial fisherman doing it for a living. His fishing could be a way to relax and unwind from his work week. He would also have the perfect time to pray, give thanks for the time to spend in a relaxing manner enjoying all that God created around while waiting for that next fish to bite.. Golfing could be considered the same, as a relaxing pastime, maybe giving God thanks for the opportunity to breath in some fresh air, get some healthy exercise for the body and so these activities would not be considered work, but a relaxing pastime.
God simply instructs us to refrain from our work for one day! Is one day too much to ask? I don't know why so many Christians make such a big deal about following Gods Commands.
You state it is a Jewish Sabbath and you don't follow it. Well Jesus is Jewish, do you follow Jesus? Jesus also asks you the following:
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Remember, Christs followers are Jewish and Gentile, and we are all treated the same now, One Church, ONE GOD!
GBU
Therefore, I raised Romans 8:1-4 for your consideration. I was hoping in your comment to me, you would also refer to this very telling portion of Scripture that must apply to & affect every true believer, cutting deep into the heart. Again, Paul stated that the Law was limited in what it could achieve. Their words & one's diligent obedience to them could never give a person cleansing or the sure hope of eternal life - if it could, then Jesus should not have suffered & died. The Law failed miserably, as far as snatching the sinner from judgement. The Law was good & came in the Power of God but its purpose was limited in regards to salvation. Only through Jesus Christ & His Gift of the Holy Spirit could the "righteousness of the Law" be applied & fulfilled in the believer. Should then the believer go back & hang onto that Law, when the Law given by the Spirit, giving life in Christ Jesus, frees a sinner from a Law that only gave death? Sabbath-keeping can only be by choice - never by commandment & never to be imposed upon another.
Hello Bro Dan
I see you have removed your answer to me but I am still going to answer your points.
Moses' Law consists in general of 1. the Moral Law of which the 10 com/nts were a sort of summary 2. com/nts that had to do with the way the Hebrews should serve the Lord ie priests, sacrifices, the Temple, etc, 3. the State Law ie how Hebrews should govern their state, 4. Laws about feasts etc, 5. other Laws that regulate the relations of people within their community and many more.
Of course the Moral Law in general is still valid in the new form that Jesus has taught, see Matthew 5.
But what has to do with how Hebrews worshipped God has been cancelled. Why? Because all those things served as a shadow of things to come, ie the Temple of Solomon where God had His eyes on has become the Temple of our body where God (His Spirit indwells. Sacrifices of animals have been substituted by the sacrifice of the Lamb. There aren't now a specific people who are priests, all of us are now priests and kings and so on.
There are no feists and special holidays now like Pentecost, like Passover, etc also shadow of new things.
Christian Law is not any more a State Law, Jesus has separated the Moral Law from the State Law, ie offer to Ceasar what belongs to him and God what belongs to Him. Christianity should not be involved directly with politics by trying to enforce its views to others although we can influence them for better (this is a big issue that a lot can be said).
Many com/nts in the old Law about relations between people are now abandoned like divorces, like marrying more than one woman and other that were expressing societies of the 15-20th century BC.
See Pt 2
About Sabbath now. The Sabbath was not just a rest day during the week. It was. a COMPULSORY holiday with many regulations about what is and what is not permitted. Sabbath was also the 7th year. There was also the Jubilee year. Paul makes it clear that we are not to keep those any more, he calls them " weak beggarly elements". Of course there should be rest days during the week and it is really good we have 2 days now instead of one, and vacations from our work etc. But there is a huge difference between Sabbath and Sunday. Sunday is just a rest day, it is not compulsory, there isn't anything we should avoid or should do. The early church selected the next day to Sabbath as the formal day for worshipping God, see the History of the Church. In doing that they tried make sure that those old things would not enter Christianity. The main danger for Christianity in those early years were Hebrew habits entering the church . And we see that,say, in the R/Catholic church where they have priests, celebrations and other which should not exist.
This is my point of view brother and if I haven't convinced you it is OK. I am not to insult you anyway. Thanks for your reply although you removed it.
GBU
I appreciate your feedback, and all of your input. Sorry for the late reply, The 2 posts that I deleted, (1) to you, and (1) to Chris was by accident. I could not see the 2 posts in the thread but could see them in my comments listed as waiting. It had been many hours so I thought I would copy those posts and then delete - and repost. In the process I lost the original posts, so I'm beginning to formulate new replies to repost. So I'm getting backed up a bit. I reposted to Chris, and now here for you. GiGi is also in queue.
For the most part I believe we are in agreement on most issues surrounding the ceremonial laws which have faded away, and God's 10 Commandments/moral laws are still in affect for Christians today. Jesus said as much, and even emphasized how intricate these laws are Matt 5:28 to open are eyes so that we can be very aware of our sin, and to repent, and refrain from our sin.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind per the New Covenant.
So in summary; I believe that a saved Christian will be following and applying God's Commandments in their lives via the conviction of God's Holy Spirit.
GBU
It is true that Moses' Law asked Hebrews to observe the Sabbath.
But as Paul says in Galatians 3:24 the Law served as a schoolmaster (although "tutor and guardian for childs" is a more accurate translation of the grk "paidagogos") which leads people to Christ. That means that many things in the Old Law served as a shadow for things to come in the New Covenant, they served as a figure for the real things to come. So circumcision of the flesh is figurative for circumcision of the Heart (new birth), sacrifice of animals were a figure fot Jesus' sacrifice ... and so on.
Paul in Galatians 8-11 says "8. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9.But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10.Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11.I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
And in Collossians 2:16-17 he says, "16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (FOR NOT HOLDING THEM): WHY NOT PAUL? BECAUSE 17.Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ"
Remenber when the apostles gathered in Jerusalem to discuss about the gentiles following or not the Law. They came up with a conclusion. What was that conclusion? Acts 15:28-29, "28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29. That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
You see brother nothing to keep from the Old Law but only the above.
Besides Jesus said in some place that my Father works until now and so am I. God hasn't really gone to rest after the creation but works till now for the salvation of people.
GBU
[Comment Removed]
So the Decalogue, for example, was given to a specific people for a specific purpose. If I relied only on it to give me finite rules for obedience, then I would fail God. If the command said, "Thou shalt not kill" & I obeyed it & never murdered, then I could say that I had fully kept that commandment. And that is how Israel would have understood it. But Jesus then came on the scene & taught His disciples what 'murder' meant ( Matthew 5:21-24). So here we now have that connection between the old Law that only condemned & brought death ( Romans 7:4-6) & now the Deliverer, through His Sacrifice, Who has "delivered us from the lawthat we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".
If one believes that the Decalogue is still binding, that's their choice. But my belief is that those in Christ (of Jew & Gentile) are far beyond the Decalogue & are now indwelt & led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:1-4), that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us". My reference can never be to the Decalogue, only to the Holy Spirit who interprets the whole Law, pertaining to life & godly living, helping me to obey & giving power to live it - which the Old Law could never do. I ask, 'why should I go to a system that could never give life, or even syncretize it with the Law of the Spirit'?
I understand, and you've related your position that you don't feel the need to follow God's 10 Commandments (The Decalogue as your refer to it). You state that it is only for the Jewish People. Conversely, I truly believe the scripture solidly supports that the 10 Commandments were for all of mankind, a moral law, a law that tells everyone what sin is. When God made the New Covenant He said I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Jer 31:33. Same Law.
When Jesus came, he said he did not come to abolish the Law, he came to fulfill it.and Jesus followed the law and I believe that he does expect those of us that follow Him, to follow these same Laws, as He states this in so much scripture throughout the bible.
Ecclesiastes 12:13"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This verse doesn't say for this is the whole duty of the Jewish people. It says: for this is the whole duty of man!
Regarding the 4th Commandment: Keep Holy the Sabbath. Mark 2:27"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Here again, this verse does not say the sabbath was made only for Jewish/Hebrew people.
I will leave you with one last verse, that I believe is targeted at those of us that wish to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
GBU
Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.
Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).
Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.
And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.
As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU
Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.
Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.
Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.
And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.
GBU
But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).
And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.
Part 3.
Thank you for bearing with me in this lengthy post.
In verse 6, Paul sums his point up by stating that to live according to the sinful nature (carnality or fleshly) is death. Disobedience always kills. But, he says, that to be spiritually minded (living by the Spirit and the Spirit's law of life) is life and peace (with God and personally at peace).
So what Paul is contrasting in these verses is not the holy Law of God and the life of the Spirit. He is contrasting the law that is at work in us ( Romans 7:7-13 identifies sin as the culprit, not the Holy Law.) "The Law is "spiritual" "hoy, and "just" and "good
(Verse 7:12;14) Paul identifies the law of sin and death as what he speaks of in Rom. 7:22-23, not as the Law of God, but as another law.
So, Chris, I do not think in any way that Paul was speaking of the holy Law of God as being the law of sin and death because he identifies the law as good that he delights in in verse 7:22 and the law of sin and death as "another law" in verse 23.
To sum up:
The holy Law of God is good, just and holy and desirable for regenerated people. However, it condemns those who break it.
The law of sin and death is another law that came into effect when the holy law is transgressed through our sinful nature (the flesh) This law brings in reality condemnation upon those who sin.
Therefore, sin all men have sinned and fall short of God's glory and righteous requirements for anyone to have relationship with Him, the law can never bring us into this relationship, being powerless to save us from our sins.
The law of the Spirit is the power to walk in Him in obedience, having been regenerated and saved from our sins through Jesus.
Believers will desire to live according to the will of God by the work of the Holy Spirit, and will, with the Spirit's help, resist the desires of the sinful nature.
We who believe will, like Paul, love God's law.
Thank you GiGi - I appreciated your insight into those Scriptures that I find invaluable in any discussion as we've been having here.
I can't disagree with what you've shared, as I too, see that all of God's Laws are holy, special, & pertinent to knowing the Will of God & pleasing Him by following them. I also understand the passages you shared, viz Romans 7:22,23 & Romans 8:1-5, in a similar way as you, except to highlight these points:
a. In Romans chap 8: "the law of sin & death" (v2), I don't see it as simply as being freed from "the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God". This is certainly true that the witness of our new lives in Christ is evidence of no longer standing condemned before God. But Paul writing, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh", strongly suggests that "what the law could not do" by its weakness (inability) in its successful working in sinful flesh, refers directly to the Decalogue, which really is the Law of sin & death, or we can read it as 'the Law that reveals sin & ultimately leads to death'.
After we have been freed from the limitations & constraints of such a Law, the righteousness that is contained in that Law (v4), might yet be fulfilled in us. And how is this possible? Only by the Spirit's application & enabling us to perform it in our lives. On its own, the Law was totally incapable of doing this - it wasn't given for that purpose - just to show sin & its severity & permanence. The Israelite who truly loved God & desired to please Him would have been tormented by the magnitude of his sins, as the Law in simple terms showed him, & if it were not for those sacrifices proving that God still heard their cries & promised to cover their sins for that time, the Israelite would have found no relief at all. Onto Page 2.
So, I read that the Law of the Spirit of Life IN Christ Jesus is the New Law found in the New Covenant that superseded the Old - one that only revealed sin but incapable of how to be cleansed & to live in joy & victory.
b. Romans 7:7-13,22,23: I agree that there is "another law in my members" that wars against the mind; or another principle initiated by sinful corruption that is constantly at war with the enlightened enlivened knowledge of sin's depravity in a believer's life. Yet here, Paul is writing about his personal struggles with sin nature's drawing power & his battle to gain victory over it. Only through Jesus Christ can he find rest & victory (v25), yet in the meanwhile, the battle will always rage. I too don't see Paul in judgement of God's Laws at all, rather with his personal battle with sin (the 'other law' of sin vs spirit (mind) raging within). Paul's view of God's Laws was always of the highest order - it's the application of it to his life that was irrelevant, when he viewed himself as now controlled & obedient to the Spirit & not to the Law that only brought death.
So, I think that you can see the difference I make in considering the position of the Decalogue in the life of a believer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Truth & desired outcome that it brought, but it's irrelevance to the Spirit-filled, Spirit-led believer is now important. Had the Person & Work of the Spirit simply been a force or energy of God, as some would erroneously believe, then yes, we definitely need to grasp onto anything (any Law) that would help us to know God's Will & be obedient to Him. But thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gifts to us in Christ Jesus & His Holy Spirit, so that the letter, which kills, now is obsolete with the coming of the Spirit Who gives life & power to live according to ALL the Laws of God.
I trust you will have read my responses to others, as I've tried not to be repetitious here. Every blessing dear sister.
I think you are right about Rom 7:22-23.
Rom 7:21-23, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
The law of sin and death IN MY MEMBERS, the law of sin WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS. So Paul talks not about the Law of God but our sinful nature and its grasp.
I think you got it right (as far as I am concerned) in explaining that God's grace frees people not from the Law but from God's condemnation for breaking it. jesus paid the penalty for that instead of us so now we are free from condemnation. Well said.
GBU
Because of the large input on this subject, I wanted to really study this section of Romans 7 and 8 carefully to understand it with an open mind.
[Comment Removed]
Pt. 2
But, as Paul says in verse 3, God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world, by creating a human body for Him and giving Him a human nature like every other human, but without the sinful nature. Jesus was sent specifically for the sinfulness of humans. His coming was to condemn sin in the flesh of all humans in His own sinless body because He alone was righteous and had the standing and power to and the holiness to take the judgment of humanity's sin upon Himself on the cross, satisfying the condemnation our sin brought through His sacrifice and holy blood. This work of Christ does what the Holy Law could never do, it saves us from the condemnation of our sins forever. His work exchanged our sinfulness for HIs righteousness so that we can have right standing before the Father. Being God and man, Jesus was the perfect Savior, completely untainted from personal sin, but, due to His divinity, He could judge sin and remove it from us without Himself being forever tainted by it. He overcame it by taking upon Himself to destroy it and its effects. He had the power and authority as God to do this.
Paul goes on in verse 4 to say that Jesus did this so that the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us both by receiving His righteousness before the Father, but also that we will walk in a newness of life in the Spirit because we can now walk after the things of the Spirit, (which would be things that the Decalogue has instructed us to live by as well as the additional commandments laid out for us by our Lord.)
Lastly, in verse 5, Paul contrasts the sinful life of the unregenerated to the renewed and godly life of the life of the Spirit. Those who are regenerated will have their minds set on what the Holy Spirit wills, which is always righteous, and will resist the sinful nature (the flesh) in this new life in Christ.
See part 3.
This is an interesting thread that has taken many turns already. I just want to speak to what Paul refers to as the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2. In reading verses 1-5 I see that Paul is speaking of several things.
He is speaking of the freeing of us by the Holy Spirit from the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God. It does not say that we are freed from the Holy Law, but of the condemnation it pronounces upon us when we sin.
He speaks of the Holy Spirit in us causes us to walk according to the will of the Spirit and to not walk according to the sinful nature. (which he calls "the flesh"). So when we yield to the work of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to do what God wills, which would be doing what God has determined to be pure and moral (as the 10 commandments teach us what this is).
Paul goes on to say that the Holy Sprit teaches us the law that gives life (forgiveness, no condemnation, grace, eternal life, in and through Christ Jesus). This new life frees us from the law of sin and death. I understand the law of sin and death to be the aspect of God's holy judgment that always brings death to all who sin rather than speaking of the holy Law of God which shows us God's moral will.
Then in verse 3 he says that what the law could not do, (the holy commands of God could not make us righteous because we will break them whenever we sin, which brings the judgement of sin and death to all who sin). Our sinful nature makes it so that we cannot be perfectly righteous perfectly and always doing what is right according to God's will and law. The Law of God cannot make us righteous nor clear us of our sin, nor remove the condemnation for our sinning against it. It can only bring condemnation upon every person because none of us keep it wholly and perfectly all the time. We cannot do this. And the Law cannot save us.
see Part 2
A few weeks ago I was going through Matthew 5,6 where Jesus gives some commandements to His disciples. Then He tells them not to worry about their needs because God will provide for them. And in verse 6:33 He says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you". You see brother seeking to obey God's com/nts is actually seeking His righteouness and His Kingdom. God righteouness is not only Jesus' sacrifice but a part of it is our strive to obey His Law.
There are 2 opposite theories in Christianity. The first one, at the one extreme end, says that we need to do a whole load of works to please God and get saved. The other extreme, I think it is called hypergrace (hyper is grk fot the Latin super), that is a supergrace which surrounds christians, so say I can sit on my couch at home and watch an erotic movie and still the grace of God floats around me. Which one is right? None.
Where is the truth? In between. There is a part that a man does and a part that God does. Our part is to strive to live righteously and God's part is to provide for me Jesus' Blood when I fail in my struggle to accomplish His Law. This is how God's righteouness is fulfilled. No result can be obtained if any of those parts is missing. We can do nothing without God's grace and God can do nothing if we don't repent for our sins IN OUR STRIVE TO LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY. This is the narrow road
I wii not tire you too much. What are God's com/nts? I mean, are they what God calls righteous, what he likes, wishes, whar are they really? They are what He would do in such cases. Primarily the com/nts represent God's character. What God asks us to do is what He would do under the same circumstances. Love your enemy...because your Father in Heaven loves them...to become His children. The importance of God's commandements and us knowing & obeying them is of unspeakable importance.
If I misunderstood your post I am very sorry, forget my post
GBU
Thank you brother Giannis for your fine post. And I do agree with what you've written, not having tired me at all in my reading of it.
It is my belief that Christians are generally absorbed by the fact that if God has spoken anywhere in the Bible then those words must apply to all of us today. And that is true to an some extent, but as you would also know, the Word must be rightly divided. If God commanded the Israelites to go into Canaan & destroy all the heathen Gentiles there, we clearly don't use that command to do likewise in our own or nearby lands. So we then conclude that only God's Moral Laws (leaving aside the 4th Commandment!) that we obey because they must apply to us, but not those commands that were Israel-specific, prophet-specific, etc.
What I maintain, & from my reading & study of the Word, is that we must look beyond the letter of the Law delivered by God, but to rightly include the reason for the giving of the Law, to whom it was delivered, its limited time frame, & intended results of blessing or punishment. I agree that the Old Mosaic Covenant, which included the Decalogue, was a shadow of the New, but I see that when I include not just the mighty Commandments therein, but also consider & apply these other factors listed above, then the whole package of the Decalogue takes on a completely different understanding. And this is an understanding, if I were to avoid, would continue to wrestle with my spirit & knowledge, not giving me peace. So this is why I come on very strong on this matter, because the Decalogue was something I was taught from a young age, but now in my revived spirit state, find that the Word of God gives me much more to help understand the matter more fully. Onto Page 2.
But this as I said is not an automatic process. One has to want to follow God's Law and strive in prayers, and not only in prayers, but in reading the Word of God, in having communion with other believers, attending a congregation where the ministries given by God work, in other words by having a decent christian life. Also by avoiding doing sins, what we feed ourselves that we will become. Is one feeds himself say with sinful movies which include violence then they can't expext that they grow in love and peace and sanctification, can they? This is a very brief summary. Where I want to come to is that the Spirit of God cleans us as much as we allow Him to clean us. He doesn't force us, He doesn't overcome our freedom and will and choises. He goes as far as we allow Him to go. That is why in the parable of the Seed one field produces 30, the other 60 and the other 100. So it is not an auto pilot that one puts in his car and then the thing goes on its own. So first one has to read the Bible and see what God expects from them and then try to make that a reality in their life using God's grace which will produce a fruit in their life. And this is not done overnight, it takes a whole lifetime to succeed, to any degree one succeeds it.
Well brother I hope I haven't confused you, I am not that fluent in English and I strive to express my thoughts and often the result is not that successful. If I misunderstood your post, then sorry about that.
GBU
Thank you once again brother Giannis for your great & important comments & your expressions in English are perfectly understood. I must say that I do agree with what you've shared & the thought of how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life caused me to pause & reflect a while. Since we are blessed with having God's Word in our hands, having congregations to attend, pastors/elders to lead & teach, & people to encourage & pray for us, are all truly God-given so that we might be well formed & informed completely according to God's Will.
I then wondered, what about those who don't enjoy what we have now? Those who live under communist regimes where Bibles & gatherings are forbidden; those in prison, or converted there, who have little else than a Bible or NT; those currently being persecuted & killed (a little published fact of what's going on, especially in two States in India, where over a hundred Christians now dead because of Hindu militants, many Church buildings razed to the ground, Bibles destroyed, & believers fleeing for their lives - with the Hindu govt. doing nothing about it); & other situations where the ministry that we enjoy now is absent for many.
How does the Holy Spirit work in these varied people & situations they're in? I believe that when there is a dearth of spiritual help & guidance, the Spirit can minister in greater measure - for God is not limited in how He reveals Himself & the application of His Word to a person. Yet, the Spirit still helps us in spite of all that is available to us, so that we can correctly learn & discern between Truth & error & approach Him confidently with our needs & struggles. Onto Page 2.
With obedience to the Law, as is our subject here, yes, we could adhere to the Decalogue & if that is all we had, including the other Laws that built up from it, we have a clear set of rules to live by. And yet I find, that those rules don't even come within a hair's breadth to all that the Lord requires & expects of us to live holy before Him, dealing with all our sin.
Hence, my reliance is not on what the letter gives (& that which was given to Israel), but to the Spirit, Who makes God's Laws (all of it) real & applicable to my situation & understanding - something the Old could never do. So, I do see the Holy Spirit's Work as all-encompassing: where there is any lack to physical resources of the Word & Fellowship, He will minister; where there is any lack to understanding the full depth & breadth of sin, He will reveal it, alert us, even deal with us in Love; where it seems that loneliness or the world's rejection is our lot, He will be the Comfort & Help that we need. He will minister according to the need in our lives that we should have no fear or concern that God has forgotten us - for He is our sufficiency, our All in all. Every blessing.
The above is very true but I believe God will take in Heaven christians who are sanctified but probably not perfect. There is a difference between sanctified and perfected, One may have not become perfect but they are striving to live holy and when they fail they get cleaned up (sanctified) with Jesus' Blood.
Anyway thanks for the conversation. GBU
You have explained well. Whereas we as believers did learn from and early age the commands of God that we were expected to follow because He saved us and we love Him, so we teach our own children from a young age to obey God also. This is good parenting and what we certainly should do. As we grow in grace and knowledge of God through the taking in of His Word, the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification changes us to become more and more Christ-like, (who obeyed ALL of the commands of the law and the will of His Father. We are to imitate Him in our godly conduct because doing so glorifies Him, witnesses of Him to others, and creates in us godly character so that we can love Him with all our being and to love others by avoiding to do harm to them in any way. We train our minds and hearts to think on the things Philippians 4 tells us to occupy our minds with which will crowd out the thoughts and inclinations that come from our sinful nature. We take every thought captive to the word of God, which is a command given us by God through Paul.
God asks us to love Him more than anything or anybody else. Why? Because 1. He deserves it, and 2 this is our assurance that we will never leave Him and that we will keep walking the narrow path till the end. In the Bible there are many examples of people who although started their godly life well, afterwards their deceitful heart loved something else more than Him and led them away from God. In the parable of the Seed, Jesus warns us not to let our ambitions and pleasures of this life to fill our heart. If yes then our field will become fruitless. There is a moto in the world lately, "Follow your heart". How wrong it is if our heart drives us away from our creator.
GBU
My perception then, is that believers generally aren't looking at this matter in such a way. Why? Because it is believed & unquestionably accepted that 'these are clearly God's Commands, written in the Word for us, therefore they are relevant & must be obeyed; end of story'.
But that is not the full story given to us from the Word. If we focus only on obedience to a very very basic set of Commandments to adhere to & we deny the Work of the Spirit in our lives, we would certainly fail. Likewise, if we want to include the Decalogue along with the Spirit's Ministry to show us our sins that are outside or beyond those original parameters, then does the Spirit ever negate what was given in the Decalogue? In other words, does the Spirit's Ministry not also include the Ten Commandments, making them, as all other Words from Him, very special & applicable to us personally?
Then one more thing which perplexes me: if we hold the Decalogue in such high esteem as to say it is very relevant to us today & should not be dismissed, why do most Christians reject the 4th Commandment & give excuses for not obeying it or changing the name or day to suit them? The Decalogue is a complete package from God (to Israel) - not one Command should be broken; it's a case of accepting or rejecting the whole - not dissecting it to suit them or us. As I've mentioned before, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that Old Law - it is simply not relevant to the one in Christ now, & for the Jew especially, finding welcome liberty from a Law that could never give him cleansing, victory, & assurance of eternity. And for those of us who are "without the Law" & also the Jew now in Christ, we need only look to & rest upon the Spirit of Grace & Peace, to lead us perfectly through life, teaching us ALL that the Father requires of us to please Him - something the Old Law could never achieve nor designed to do. GBU
Hello Chris.
Firstly sorry about my late response.
Generally speaking I do agree with what you have written, with most of it. It is true that in the N.T. the moral law of God is not limited in those 10 (9) commandments, there is more, and I don't think that any of those 9 is not valid any more. Actually in the O.T. there were more than the Decalogue, those were a summary or the main ones or some commandements that were representative of that moral law.
Now, nowadays. If we limit our knowledge to what the Spirit of God produces in us then we could say that we have no need to read the Bible or that apostle Paul was wrong to write instructions to churches including suggestions about what to do and what to avoid. Yes, one could say that most of them is common sense, even unbelievers could have thought of them. But it is also true that the Word of God works as food, milk in the beggining, meat later on. So we need it to grow spiritually.
How does the Spirit works in us? The Spirit produces its fruit which is love, joy, peace... But is this an automatic process? The way I understand it: I have to look to what God expects from me firstly. How is that done? It is done by reading His Word which includes His moral law which represents His righteouness. Then when I have that knowledge I strive to do that in my life. How is that done? At first I do what I am able to do. Secondly, where I saw that my limits are beyond what God expects from me (who can say that love their enemy?) then I asked God's grace which means that I srtive in prayers by getting filled with God's Spirit. To be clear I give an example. When I see that I get upset and angry easily and although I strive to overcome my anger still I am not able to do it, then I go to prayer and I say to God, "Dear Lord this is my limit, my ceiling, can't get higher than that, please help me", and I stay in prayer getting filled with God's Spirit which gradually produces a fruit inside me, and that fruit grows and grows...
Hi Chris
I would like to get in into that conversation.
You have written very good comments so far on that topic (God's commandements), but i do have an objection about a statement you have done, which is "I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow". If the set of rules you were referring to is things like Sabbath then we are in agreement. But if you mean in general God's commandements I am on the opposite site.
Let's see the 2 Covenants. The Old one is a shadow for the New one, which means that animal sacrifices worked as a figure for Jesus' sacrifice. So as far as the way of justification of people is concerned those two Covenants are completely different. But as far as the Moral Law that accompanies both Covenants is concerned the New one is, let's use a modern word, an upgrade of the Old one. Because there are moral laws that accompany the New Covenant as well the Old one.
But let's go through another way.
What does it mean that we are justified by God. It means that in front of God's eyes we are considered as righteous people.
How is that done? It is done through Jesus' sacrifice.
When are we justified by God? When we repent and ask for forgiveness through Jesus' Blood.
Repent for what? For the sins we have done (and still doing).
What is sin, what defines what sin is? God's Law, God's commandements.
So obeying God's commandements is of a huge importance to Christians. Breaking those com/ments is sin.There is a moral law in New Testament, God's commandements, which are of an extremely high importance, there are not to be given a secondary place in our doctrines. And how do we know those com/ments? Because we read them in the Bible. I don't think there is anybody who claims that the Spirit of God teaches them personally (like it was done to apostle Paul), so they don't need to read the Bible.
I feel we are much closer in agreement than we may think. I'm sure you'll agree we have always needed God's laws to live peaceably, and safely. This has not changed throughout the ages. Without Laws, societies break down and self destruct. Over the centuries, many societies laws have been based to some degree on God's 10 Commandments.
It is true that in the OT man had God's Commandments/Laws and could not refrain from sin on their own, which resulted in Death. Thanks to Jesus and the Cross, we are under God's New Covenant, and per the scripture we have those same laws written in our bodies and minds. What is different now is we have the Holy Spirit to help us refrain from sin in a New Way that was not available before Jesus. Same Laws - New way to follow the same commands - which will result in Life Now - instead of Death previously. And we are not accomplishing this on our own. and it is only by the Holy Spirit in us that can save us from Death. Amen
John 14:26
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Let me put it another way, would the Holy Spirit guide us - to not follow God's 10 Commandments? I don't think so, and I think we should be able to agree that if we are being led by God's Holy Spirit we will be motivated to follow God's 10 Commandments. Chris, I would like you to answer one question. Please tell me what Commandments(s) from God's 10 Commandments we are not required to follow now under the New Covenant? And why.
GBU
I appreciate your comments Bro. Dan; and yes, God's Laws were essential then, as it is now, not only to understand the Mind of God & His Will for mankind, but also that we might live righteously before Him & with all due consideration for others. And true, societies & govts have created their own laws largely based on what was learned from God's Word, or for those "without the Law", on the natural instincts & inclinations of their minds, doing what they believed was right for their societies. Of course, many of those Laws have since been altered, even mangled, because man has preferred to continue to follow his own inclinations from sin-gripped minds & persuasions & pressures from others, instead of adhering to what is good & right.
So what does a believer in Christ do now, who has heard of, understands, & uses the Decalogue as a measure against the state of his own understanding & life's practises? Had the Holy Spirit not been sent to indwell & minister in the believer to guide him comprehensively to doing all of God's Will in his life, then yes, he must resort to that Law as his sole Standard, & very much so to include the 4th Commandment. And let's not forget, that just as obeying that Law is imperative, so also the penalties, or else what would the Law serve, if only a nice abridged set of rules for living without consequences for disobedience?
I won't again raise the matter of that Law given solely to Israel: I have raised it before with you. But on the matter of either fully accepting the Law, fully abiding by it, & to suffer the consequences for disobeying it (as we read in the Bible), then how do we stand before God? You asked, "would the Holy Spirit guide us - to not follow God's 10 Commandments?" Onto Page 2.
THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT-AN UNKNOWN PERSON
The person of the Holy Spirit is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person. As a Person, as JESUS was in flesh and bones, he is completely unknown, and he has several missions, as JESUS said: John 16:12-15 & 8-11:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father has are mine:therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,and shall shew it unto you.
8 When he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of Judgment, because the prince of this world is Judged.
WOULDN'T THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BE THE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:32 - THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE BROTHER OF JESUS?
- The Person of he Holy Spirit has not genealogy as JESUS has; why? Because he is not a Jew.
- The NAME of JESUS is known of men, and is also known of the angels, and He is known of the demons too. But the person of the Holy Spirit has a NAME written that no MAN knows, but he himself. He has not genealogy as JESUS has.
- JESUS came from heaven and He was born in Israel. John 6:v.38 - I came down from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
In other hand, the prophetic birth of the person of Holy Spirit is not in Israel, its in a Gentile nation.His birth is within the body of Christ-the Church-and as JESUS said, he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that he speaks, he shall receive of mine, he shall take of mine.
JESUS existed before the world was, the person of HS is the ancient of days
Without getting into the lengthy Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, what are you writing here? Is the Holy Spirit referred to as the Ancient of Days, or is He the 'younger brother of Jesus'? As you study this important Doctrine & continue to read the Word, you will find that the Holy Spirit is neither - The Holy Spirit is a Person of the Godhead (the One God), where the Eternal God (the Ancient of Days) has sent forth His Holy Spirit (i.e. from within Himself) to indwell believers & God has sent forth His Word (in Human form as Jesus Christ, the Incarnate One) to redeem sinful man to Himself. So we see the Triune God reaching out completely to a fallen race of people to secure their redemption & love - just as He has loved us & that love compelling Him to act in such a manner.
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