A month ago I said I would like to try a exercise that would test or check our hermeneutics by going through the OT on into the NT.
I started it with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants and I believe I left off where we identify the fulfillment.
The reason for this particular study was that some say God was done with Israel and his promises to restore Israel was made over to the Church.
There was dispute on Romans chapters 9,10, and 11.
Those studies would eventually end up in eschatology viewpoints.
I'm glad you labeled certain views you don't agree with dispensational and not I,
So by your definition I'm going to pull some of the dispensationist out of the closet.
First let me ask a question you have me confused on.
You said Daniel 9 is not an end time discussion how do you view Matthew 24:15?
Jesus goes through a discourse with his disciples on the end times and refers them to this. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Do you hold the view of Jesus being the Prince of the people destroyed the Sanctuary?
Your view of Daniels 70th week prophecy is very peculiar because you are Post trib. Did you know Post trib-ers use Daniel 9 as a spring board to the end times?
If so that's not the view you had when you supported Jimbob a few months ago.
You might want to read the ticket before getting on the train.
I've never heard anyone that holds to any rapture doctrine doesn't use Daniel 9's 70th week as the final week unless they say the abomination that makes desolate was done by Antiochus IV Epiphanes 200 years before Christ.
That doesn't work for your time-line and besides Jesus places it future towards the end time.
Dear all, may my words bring you healing and comfort. Because it is never profitable to calculate times and times that are subject to God Himself. The perception and composition of the Bible, that's what makes us disagree, not the views themselves. David0921 takes a spiritual view of this matter. So do I. The letter itself kills. When we picture God's kingdom today, we see that the Holy Spirit is everywhere, in u and me, who belive in Jesus Christ. Yes, we are tempted to say that it is a complete work. IF it weren't for Jesus saying: A lot of stuff. When He Lived, He Died and Rose Again on the 3rd Day, right? So in those words, He has fulfilled what you are talking about.
When I came to faith, I saw the abomination standing on the temple mount today! Oh, I've never felt or feel associated with the prophet Daniel. And those who turn to the Prophets today to talk about the end times must be confused. I will be. It is the evil self who causes confusion. So we cast all confusing thoughts, into the deepest darkness, where they can stay and never return in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ.
Second Peter 3:10. BUT another point of view comes here: When Jesus had to give up His Spirit, the curtain tore and the dead rose from their tombs in Jerusalem. So in a way, this has happened as well. A good question becomes, why didn't the Apostles see this? Perhaps because they had divided opinions. The main thing is dear friends that we stick to the word, and it is good if we look upward as Paul said we should do. 1 Corintihans 14 (Speak More Prophetically so everyone can be edified). Luke 1 chapter, love u all in Christ, stay strong in the word of God, it will live forever and ever.
I agree, we should study the Scriptures for understanding, not necessarily for date setting or calculation purposes. It is the FAther who knows all things and will work everything out for the benefit of His elect and His glory. He knows how all the prophecies fit together and especially all the dates and times yet in the future.
I think that it can be difficult to grasp all of what prophecy means until it is fulfilled. In Jesus' time He spoke about the immediate future events of His death and resurrection, about the coming of the Spirit in power, about the apostles being witnesses of Him, spreading the gospel throughout the known world at that time, of the persecution of the church, the martyrdom of some of the apostles and saints, of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, of the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and having it given to another people. The apostles were witnesses to all of these events in the years after Jesus' ascension. They did not understand all of what Jesus said would happen until it did occur. Then they understood fully with the help of the Holy Spirit living in them.
We, too, can read of all the prophecies in the Bible and try to understand how and when they have been or will be fulfilled. However, it will be after the time that Jesus does come again in all of His glory that we will fully understand these prophecies as we witness them actually occurring in the time before His return and in the time after His return. We can study the Scriptures and gain some knowledge, but full knowledge will not come until the prophecies that God ordained for the end times actually occur.
I do know people who hold to the viewpoint I and Ronald have spoken about Daniel 9.
Let me state again, I believe that Daniel 9 tells of the first coming of Christ, not the second, and that Jesus is the Prince, Messiah, spoken of in Daniel 9:25 an d the 'prince that is to come' in verse 26 is the Roman Emperor and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. In Matthew 24:15, I believe that Jesus' reference to Daniel's prophecy was to the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D. also. (this verse refers back to verses 1-2 began the discourse).
But I also think that Jesus was speaking of the last times in this discourse, as well in some verses.
As to what I have stated in the past, Steven, I must say that as I study on this topic more and more, my views have changed. I am in the process of learning and my understanding is developing. So, please offer me grace to in this. Let's instead speak about our understanding of the passages at hand and not pick apart one another's thinking. I would love to hear you tell us your understanding. I will respect your thinking even if I may disagree with it.
As to being premillennial dispensational or historic, preterist, post millennial, or amillennial. I lean more towards the amillennial viewpoint the more I study. I do have some preterist understanding of this topic of Daniel, but am not totally preterist, either. I don't think we necessarily need to stand fully in one view over another as we are in the process of learning.
I do believe that Jesus took the throne of David at the right hand of the Father after His ascension to heaven. He received all authority and dominion from the Father and is reigning as our King and Priest now in heaven. He reigns over both heaven and earth, as He is Lord of all creation. I believer He will come again in glory to resurrect everyone, judge everyone, defeat all of His enemies, and determine every person's eternal estate at that time.
I just made it home and will be back on the road soon.
I will continue perhaps this weekend.
This study is very fruitful because it doesn't single out a particular view instead it let's us and others see how we arrive to whatever view we have by using time lines and more importantly, Description.
The days that are coming is described thoroughly.
People are listed.
Locations are listed.
All these things have to be in place to suggest a prophecy has been fulfilled.
Example;
Some take the 70th week of Daniel from the time of Jesus triumphal entry and go 7 years forward as the fulfillment of the final week.
But the destruction of Jerusalem is at least 38 years later.
It carries the destruction OUTSIDE of the 70th week.
That's not the way Daniel describes it.
If the 69 weeks is precise then so is the 70th.
In other words, Exactly what Daniel said would happen, happened at the time and the way he said it would.
The 70th week should be treated the same way.
We must put our peg down at the end of the 69th week and use Daniel's description of the final week and see if it stands the test of accuracy as the previous 69.
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The question is are these verses talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans? And if not, what?
Note in verse 2 Jesus says, "...There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down." So if you go to Jerusalem today and look at the ruins of the Temple, what do you see? Or should I say, what do you not see? You do not see a situation where there is "...not one stone left upon another". So is Jesus, eternal God Himself, exaggerating here? Is He lying to us? Did the translators make a mistake?
Now note verse 3 as the disciples asked Jesus, "...when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" And we see that Jesus did not correct the disciples saying that He was not talking about the situation as we approach the end of the world. Quite the contrary, as we read further Jesus began to provide information about what to expect as we approach the end of the world.
So what is the spiritual temple, the House of God, the corporate representation God's Kingdom on this earth; where we would expect to find the Word of God, the gospel, during most of the New Testament period? Is it not the local churches and congregations that have existed during that time?
I'm just going to leave it there for now. But I would ask us all to consider Matt 24, and in particular these first three verses, in the light of such passages as 1 Pet 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2.
A month ago I said I would like to try a exercise that would test or check our hermeneutics by going through the OT on into the NT.
I started it with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants and I believe I left off where we identify the fulfillment.
The reason for this particular study was that some say God was done with Israel and his promises to restore Israel was made over to the Church.
There was dispute on Romans chapters 9,10, and 11.
Those studies would eventually end up in eschatology viewpoints.
I'm glad you labeled certain views you don't agree with dispensational and not I,
So by your definition I'm going to pull some of the dispensationist out of the closet.
First let me ask a question you have me confused on.
You said Daniel 9 is not an end time discussion how do you view Matthew 24:15?
Jesus goes through a discourse with his disciples on the end times and refers them to this. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Do you hold the view of Jesus being the Prince of the people destroyed the Sanctuary?
Your view of Daniels 70th week prophecy is very peculiar because you are Post trib. Did you know Post trib-ers use Daniel 9 as a spring board to the end times?
If so that's not the view you had when you supported Jimbob a few months ago.
You might want to read the ticket before getting on the train.
I've never heard anyone that holds to any rapture doctrine doesn't use Daniel 9's 70th week as the final week unless they say the abomination that makes desolate was done by Antiochus IV Epiphanes 200 years before Christ.
That doesn't work for your time-line and besides Jesus places it future towards the end time.
Can you explain?
Thanks in advance.
God bless
When I came to faith, I saw the abomination standing on the temple mount today! Oh, I've never felt or feel associated with the prophet Daniel. And those who turn to the Prophets today to talk about the end times must be confused. I will be. It is the evil self who causes confusion. So we cast all confusing thoughts, into the deepest darkness, where they can stay and never return in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ.
Second Peter 3:10. BUT another point of view comes here: When Jesus had to give up His Spirit, the curtain tore and the dead rose from their tombs in Jerusalem. So in a way, this has happened as well. A good question becomes, why didn't the Apostles see this? Perhaps because they had divided opinions. The main thing is dear friends that we stick to the word, and it is good if we look upward as Paul said we should do. 1 Corintihans 14 (Speak More Prophetically so everyone can be edified). Luke 1 chapter, love u all in Christ, stay strong in the word of God, it will live forever and ever.
Always glad to hear from you.
I agree, we should study the Scriptures for understanding, not necessarily for date setting or calculation purposes. It is the FAther who knows all things and will work everything out for the benefit of His elect and His glory. He knows how all the prophecies fit together and especially all the dates and times yet in the future.
I think that it can be difficult to grasp all of what prophecy means until it is fulfilled. In Jesus' time He spoke about the immediate future events of His death and resurrection, about the coming of the Spirit in power, about the apostles being witnesses of Him, spreading the gospel throughout the known world at that time, of the persecution of the church, the martyrdom of some of the apostles and saints, of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, of the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and having it given to another people. The apostles were witnesses to all of these events in the years after Jesus' ascension. They did not understand all of what Jesus said would happen until it did occur. Then they understood fully with the help of the Holy Spirit living in them.
We, too, can read of all the prophecies in the Bible and try to understand how and when they have been or will be fulfilled. However, it will be after the time that Jesus does come again in all of His glory that we will fully understand these prophecies as we witness them actually occurring in the time before His return and in the time after His return. We can study the Scriptures and gain some knowledge, but full knowledge will not come until the prophecies that God ordained for the end times actually occur.
God bless you today, FREE.
Love u al in Christ
I do know people who hold to the viewpoint I and Ronald have spoken about Daniel 9.
Let me state again, I believe that Daniel 9 tells of the first coming of Christ, not the second, and that Jesus is the Prince, Messiah, spoken of in Daniel 9:25 an d the 'prince that is to come' in verse 26 is the Roman Emperor and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. In Matthew 24:15, I believe that Jesus' reference to Daniel's prophecy was to the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D. also. (this verse refers back to verses 1-2 began the discourse).
But I also think that Jesus was speaking of the last times in this discourse, as well in some verses.
As to what I have stated in the past, Steven, I must say that as I study on this topic more and more, my views have changed. I am in the process of learning and my understanding is developing. So, please offer me grace to in this. Let's instead speak about our understanding of the passages at hand and not pick apart one another's thinking. I would love to hear you tell us your understanding. I will respect your thinking even if I may disagree with it.
As to being premillennial dispensational or historic, preterist, post millennial, or amillennial. I lean more towards the amillennial viewpoint the more I study. I do have some preterist understanding of this topic of Daniel, but am not totally preterist, either. I don't think we necessarily need to stand fully in one view over another as we are in the process of learning.
I do believe that Jesus took the throne of David at the right hand of the Father after His ascension to heaven. He received all authority and dominion from the Father and is reigning as our King and Priest now in heaven. He reigns over both heaven and earth, as He is Lord of all creation. I believer He will come again in glory to resurrect everyone, judge everyone, defeat all of His enemies, and determine every person's eternal estate at that time.
I just made it home and will be back on the road soon.
I will continue perhaps this weekend.
This study is very fruitful because it doesn't single out a particular view instead it let's us and others see how we arrive to whatever view we have by using time lines and more importantly, Description.
The days that are coming is described thoroughly.
People are listed.
Locations are listed.
All these things have to be in place to suggest a prophecy has been fulfilled.
Example;
Some take the 70th week of Daniel from the time of Jesus triumphal entry and go 7 years forward as the fulfillment of the final week.
But the destruction of Jerusalem is at least 38 years later.
It carries the destruction OUTSIDE of the 70th week.
That's not the way Daniel describes it.
If the 69 weeks is precise then so is the 70th.
In other words, Exactly what Daniel said would happen, happened at the time and the way he said it would.
The 70th week should be treated the same way.
We must put our peg down at the end of the 69th week and use Daniel's description of the final week and see if it stands the test of accuracy as the previous 69.
This may require other scripture.
God bless.
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The question is are these verses talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans? And if not, what?
Note in verse 2 Jesus says, "...There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down." So if you go to Jerusalem today and look at the ruins of the Temple, what do you see? Or should I say, what do you not see? You do not see a situation where there is "...not one stone left upon another". So is Jesus, eternal God Himself, exaggerating here? Is He lying to us? Did the translators make a mistake?
Now note verse 3 as the disciples asked Jesus, "...when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" And we see that Jesus did not correct the disciples saying that He was not talking about the situation as we approach the end of the world. Quite the contrary, as we read further Jesus began to provide information about what to expect as we approach the end of the world.
So what is the spiritual temple, the House of God, the corporate representation God's Kingdom on this earth; where we would expect to find the Word of God, the gospel, during most of the New Testament period? Is it not the local churches and congregations that have existed during that time?
I'm just going to leave it there for now. But I would ask us all to consider Matt 24, and in particular these first three verses, in the light of such passages as 1 Pet 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2.
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