Bible Discussion Thread

Hello all, wondering if anyone knows verses that say were immediately saved the moment we believe in and/or follow Jesus?

The only ones ive heard ppl believe are implied but i havnt found any yet saying this before judgment?

Hi Adam.

part 2.

God name is at stake when he deal with his people.

Look how God deals with Israel even after he Judged/punished them.

Ezekiel 36:19-23. And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Therefore say unto the house of Israel,

Thus saith the Lord GOD; I DO NOT THIS FOR YOUR SAKES, O house of Israel, BUT FOR MINE HOLY NAME'S SAKE, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

AND I WILL SANCTIFY MY GREAT NAME, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Also;

Isaiah 48:9-11.

Many more examples.

I will continue at another time.

God bless

Hi Adam.

Thanks for your response.

I don't think you will find it worded the way you worded it in your post with the actual word "Immediately".

But salvation is immediate when one truly believes and throughout the scripture it teaches that.

Actually in your original post you mentioned "some saying this before judgment".

I believe in your past posts you believes no one knows they're saved until Judgment.

The response from most of us is that a Christian is not part of that Judgment.

However we won't get into that here.

Here's what I will like to declare yo you.

I honestly believe there has been verses given that declares what you are looking for. And the Bible as a whole speaks on this aspect.

God spoke also in types that speaks on this.

Here's a few examples;

When God destroyed Sodom, When was lot saved?

When he left?

To answer that we would have to ask, When was he declared righteous.

God told Abraham he wouldn't destroy it if he found so many righteous. But do you notice the Angels wouldn't do anything until Lot was out of there!!

Genesis 19:21-22.

So was Lot saved before or after Judgment?

Let's look at Noah's Ark in the same light. When was Noah declared righteous?

When the Ark doors opened and closed or when God told him to start building it? Genesis 6:8. (The ark is a type.)

Adam, Galatians 4:28 says "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

When we look at the story of Abraham getting ready to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, If you study that carefully you'll see Abraham had faith before he started his journey! In Genesis 22:7-8 Isaac asked Abraham where is the Lamb for the burnt offering?

Abraham said, God will provide himself a burt offering!!

Abraham knew Isaac was the Child God promised would be his heir and he would have to raise him from the dead.

We're children of promise also!

By faith we're joint heirs of the promise with Abraham. God keeps his covenants and promises.

We're saved now.

God bless.

Hi S Spencer,

Thanks for sharing that, but I don't see much Biblical evidence for 3 different judgments and without more evidence just think its describing the one same event: the day of judgment. Just because in Revelations it goes into detail about the throne being white and just because the other scriptures about judgment don't mention that doesn't mean its separate judgments. Bible books already describe things differently. For example one place says Judas fell headlong and guts spilled out and another says he hung himself. Well, maybe it was both- that he hung himself then maybe the rope broke and he fell down.

2 Corinthians 5:10 seems to debunk the 3 judgment idea as it clearly describes one judgment for all and it says "whether good or bad" - so its not just for rewards and not just for punishment; this verse says it's both. This is also congruent with other scripture in how the end times play out.

God bless.

Hi Adam

1 Corinthians 3:13-15. is speaking of the same judgment as

2 Corinthians 5:10. Just in more detail.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

The good and bad mentioned here is the good and bad works, Not good and bad people. That's why it says every man's WORKS shall be made manifest.

I do agree with you about the fruit and what you declared in the other post as you mentioned John 14:15.

Good works is a product of fruit barring.

And fruit barring is a product of being connected to the vine.

If we take that section further we would develop a context that

suggests Christ is talking about a condition of a person already saved.

He's not giving a requirement to get saved.

John 14:15-23. If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....

He's making a contrast between those who love and obey him and the world who don't.

...and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

This is a description of one saved not a requirement to be saved.

If you are saved YOU WILL LOVE HIM, everything you do he causes it.

good night and God bless.

Titus 3: 5

Please read titus 3: 1-11

I pray God's peace be upon you.

Love you all

Thank you for sharing that Jesse, I will add that to the list. It indeed says "he saved us" past tense in Titus 3:5.

But two verses later in Titus 3:7 it says we "should be made heirs" and "hope of eternal life". That now returns to an outcome waiting to be determined. Hope of eternal life is a future thing hoped for usually in the future, not present or past, and should be made heirs is also looking to the future.

"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7 KJV

One possible explanation to reconcile this with the other verses like 1 Peter 1:13, 1 Peter 1:51, Phil 2:12, 2 Timothy 1:12 is that the statement of Jesus saving us is true and universally available for all of humanity. However on an individual level it still seems it depends on someone's choices- whether someone chooses to follow Jesus or not. The Bible already says most won't choose this and most will go to hell Matthew 7:13. So when it says "he saved us" combined with that context, maybe that is a general statement that Jesus died to save all of us, but we still must choose to follow Him and accept that hope of eternal life. This is currently what these verses are seeming like.

So, the list now has 3 verses supporting the already saved idea compared to those about a future salvation. Does anyone have more?

James 1:15 illustrates the process of sin leading eventually to death. Thus; Adam began to die in all ways once he sinned; spiritually immediately as Ezekiel 18:20 indicates it affects the soul and the death in the body continues until eventually we return back to the dust we came from. Hence; there was immediate estrangement from God when Adam and Eve hid; and God pronounced the resulting curse in childbirth; tilling the earth is sweat with thistles and thorns; etc.

We must also understand that there are those predestined to be in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:3-6). The opposite is true for the unregenerate as seen in Revelation 17:8. Christ's death was therefore part of a plan from before Creation where all those would hear His voice who were His sheep ( John 10:27). We must remember that His death was effective from what happened in time and space 2000 years ago. It also is retroactive; as it were in order to allow those who were of old to eventually in time and space have access to heaven (see Romans 6:9). Therefore; at the Rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:15) shall involve the Resurrection of all souls of deceased saints; followed by bodily ascension of those alive and remaining. There are some verses which seem to indicate O.T. saints may arise later on in say the Midpoint of the Tribulation or near the end; there is some debate on that question. Some already apparently were resurrected ( Matt. 27:52-56). This would have been a gleaning of the firstfruits; so to speak.

My point here is predestination and the fact that God initiates repentance ( Acts 11:18); etc. There is such a thing as godly repentance and worldly ( 2 Cor. 7:10); illustrated by that of Peter and Judas Iscariot. Genuine repentance brings life and brings sorrow at offending a Holy God; worldly sorrow only is interested in consequences of our actions; and in Judas' case he only recognized Christ as having "innocent blood"; not as God's Son to be worshipped.

Hi Adam,

Based on all of the scripture I have read, we do not receive "our salvation" or "our damnation" until Judgement Day.

John 5:28-29

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

2 Corinthians 5:10

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

GB

Hi Adam.

John 5:24. actually says exactly that along with a accumulation of scripture when discerning them properly.

Here's John 5:24. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE".

Also see John 11:25-26.

There's physical death and there is spiritual death.

Everyone will die the physical death, ( Once.) Hebrews 9:27. Jesus took care of the Spitual death on the cross.

Those who haven't trusted Christ is ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD! There is no sequence to this. You see it in Jude 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots;

Revelation 20:13-14. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

This concept is spreaded broadly throughout scripture when interpreted right.

Romans 6:3-11.

Ephesians 2:1-9. And you HATH HE QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins: He gave life!

This is there present condition.

He didn't say "You whom he WILL quicken!"

If we don't have eternal life now, we don't have nothing to apply our faith to.

God bless.

Hi Brother S Spencer,

Thank you for the reply. That's interesting how two people can read the same verse and come up with different meanings.

So, I'm trying to find verses that say we're immediately saved the moment we decide to follow Jesus (before we're even judged).

Based on what I'm looking for you wrote the following:

" John 5:24. actually says exactly that along with a accumulation of scripture when discerning them properly."

But I read John 5:24 and it doesn't say anything about the timing of being saved. It does not say immediately or anything about "when" this happens and its not even implied as some assume. But if you keep reading at John 5:28-29 it adds a condition by saying after Jesus speaks and dead are raised that "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Some readers imply a sense of timing when reading something even though unstated. I do not believe the Bible implies timing if it is not specifically stated. I will share evidence why:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17 KJV

Adam and Eve ate the fruit and did not die immediately, but later. Their death in the form of mortality likely started when they ate this, but they did not physically die until many years later. Some claim they had a spiritual death, but that is not stated.

Another example is: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 KJV

Some assume this means God already created females, but then in chapter 2 it says how Adam fell asleep and Eve was created. This is an example of how assuming timing when it is not stated is not correct. What this really is is a brief summary overview then chapter 2 goes into more detail about how it happened.

Likewise, John 5:24 doesn't say we're saved immediately.

Hi Brother Adam.

Judgment

Part 1.

I know we've went over this in the past. I just wanted to share an article that may bring further light to this topic.

There are three principal judgments that are often confused: the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and the Great White Throne. They are each quite different.

They say experience is a hard teacher because it gives the test first and the lessons afterward. However, we have ample lessons in life well in advance of our final exam. Paul has given us numerous written guides to help us prepare for it.

Yet we all do have a last "final exam" still ahead of us: "We must all appear before the Bema seat of Christ

And every day that our Lord tarries gives us an additional day to prepare for it.

What is the "Bema seat"?

Where will it be held?

When is it given?

What is at stake?

What are the grading criteria?

THE BEMA SEAT.

This judgment is often taught as simply an awards ceremony, but that is not entirely correct. It was the tribunal seat, the judicial bench, the judgment seat, or throne of the one in charge. Herod Agrippa I addressed the people of Tyre and Sidon from his Bema seat.

Jesus was brought before Pilate and his Bema seat. Paul was accused before Proconsul Gallio; and brought before Festus at Caesarea facing a Bema seat. (A relic of one was found among the ruins in Corinth.)

There are three principal judgments that are often confused:

The Bema Seat Judgment,

The Sheep and Goat Judgment, and The Great White Throne. They are each quite different.

See Part 2.

Adam.

Part 2.

The Bema Seat deals with rewards for obedience, crowns, and the call of the Bride to the Marriage of the Lamb which occurs in the Father's house.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment is on the earth. Three separate parties are involved, and mortals are judged on the basis of their "works."

The Great White Throne occurs at the end of the Millennium, deals with the unsaved dead, and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.

The Bema Seat Judgment is apparently the first order of business for the translated saints after the Harpazo. Everyone present will be "saved;" salvation is not the issue here. (That was concluded on a wooden cross erected in Judea about 2,000 years ago!) Everyone present will have been saved by the completed work of our Lord Jesus. The issue here is fruit-bearing, not salvation.

All are building on the same foundation, but with vastly differing results.

[ According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

"Let every man take heed:" A solemn warning. We are God's Building. We are only subcontractors.

The evaluation procedure is then detailed:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:12 (KJV)

Notice that there are six commodities in two groups, in descending order of worth. Three are products of a God's creative act, not growth or development; three are the result of natural growth and development (from our old nature?).

See Part 3.

Adam.

Part 3.

The first three are permanent. The last three will perish under fire. (The largest load of hay or wood would be worth less than the smallest diamond.)

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:13 (KJV)

Also, notice that the "work" is being appraised, not the person. It is the work being tested by fire, not the individual. All are building on the same foundation, but the results are vastly different.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:14 (KJV)

Rewards, not salvation, are the issue. Among these rewards, five crowns may be included: the Crown of righteousness, Crown of glory, Crown of life, incorruptible Crown, and Crown of rejoicing.

Salvation is invariably presented as a free gift; rewards are earned by works (fruit-bearing).

Salvation is a present possession; rewards are a future attainment given by Him at His Coming.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)

So you have been saved: what have you done with it?

That which is done for sake of personal gain, popularity, influence, or its impression on the world, will be for naught.

See Part 4.

Adam.

Part 4

LOT AS AN EXAMPLE.

Lot was vexed daily. Abraham was not vexed; he had separated himself from the world. God destroyed Sodom but saved Lot, "yet as by fire." Everything he had lived for was burned up.

By Chuck Missler.

Hi Adam.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This speaks on a person present condition once he heareth Christ word, and believeth on him that sent him,

To be able to hear the word is a condition.

This is the blood tipped ear mentioned in scripture and also what's meant in John 10:27-28.

These verses along with many of what have been shared by others suggest that you are saved now not later.

However, just say if we are wrong, how do we stand in the day of judgement?

God is a righteous Judge and requires perfection. No one can present that!

If we're to be judged, what sins is he going to pardon?

How many times can we get away with sinning before we're condemned?

What role did the cross play in our salvation?

Why didn't he just stick with the old sacrificial systems if the blood of Christ couldn't take away sins?

These are valid questions if we are to be judged with the dead.

Hi Brother S Spencer,

Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.

The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.

Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.

So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.

Adam,

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Thank you David. I read these 3 verses. None indicate that people are saved immediately on earth the moment they decide to follow Jesus.

The first reference 2 cor 5:17- new creature isn't the same as salvation. Being changed isn't salvation. It is part of the process of following Jesus. It also doesn't indicate the timing of the change to the new creature. It doesn't say when one responds to an altar call after hitting rock bottom from a violent alcoholic addiction, for example, that he person is immediately cured because he's now a new creature. If this was the case, I don't think Paul would have written so many letters to churches (believing Christians) trying to encourage them to stay on course, run the race, obey God, and avoid sin. This doesn't mean someone is trying to earn salvation as some like to attack good behavior while condoning bad behavior, but it means the action and good deeds is fruit of a genuine walk with Jesus. I think many verses support that this is a process and not instant. God bless.

Adam,

I would add one other thing.

The process of becoming Born Again is absolutely an instantaneous process of which God is entirely in control. It is a true miracle as God replaces or changes (we can't understand the mechanics) our spiritual dead soul (i.e. our stony heart) with a new resurrected soul. (Read Ezekiel 36:26,27). This can occur even before we are born (John the Baptist) or in the last moments of our life (thief on the cross) or any time in between, but always on God's time table, not ours.

When we do become Born Again there will very quickly be a change in our personality, in that our new Resurrected Soul is going to have a real problem with our sin infected body that still lusts after sin. And we will find in our life a growing desire to know and do God's will and turn away from sin. This is called Growing in Grace.

This is guaranteed to occur with every one of God's elect at some point in their life.

Read the account of the salvation of the Ninevites in Jonah where God saved 120,000 of them.

It sounds like you're conflating being born again with salvation. Does the Bible say these occur at the exact same time? If so, please share those verses.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 KJV

Jesus said this. Jesus emphasized obedience and keeping His commandments. Those who are so opposed to obeying Jesus should probably be afraid of the upcoming judgment, because someone who doesn't obey Jesus might not be a Jesus follower.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV

How can anyone believe the Bible, read this Bible verse and then believe obeying God is bad?

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:5 KJV

Adam,

What you are suggesting is a gospel of Grace plus works. And God warns against that very strongly in Galatians and Romans and in many other passages. The True Gospel is a gospel of Grace Alone. Once God has "saved", us our good works are the RESULT of having become Born Again. Our good works are NEVER THE CAUSE nor the REASON for our salvation.

2 Cor 5:17 is speaking about the very nature of salvation and that conclusion is supported throughout the Bible.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Both of these passages are absolutely speaking about being Born Again in our Soul existence which is every bit a part of us as our Body. And that is what happens to every True Believer when God applies His salvation to their life.

David,

You wrote: "What you are suggesting is a gospel of Grace plus works. "

That's false. It's usually better to just ask someone nicely if you want to confirm their beliefs rather than just make a false assumption then pretend that that person is violating the Bible. The Bible also warns against false teachers and bearing false witness.

I believe the Bible, which includes James 2:18.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." James 2:18 KJV

Do you believe James 2:18 is true and God's word?

James 2:14-26 shows more context.

Some use a straw man argument against good works and attack anyone who supports what the Bible says about good works, and falsely assume that others think what "saves" you. It's a strawman argument because its usually not what others believe. Some who accuse others of this even know this in their heart that they are being deceiving. My hope is this never happens here, but because so many do this I am exposing this dishonesty in advance.

Some are so passionately against good works that they have more passion for that than to obey God. Some even reach the point thinking good works are bad and that bad works (sin) are good. This opposite has a very familiar signature that does not come from God.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 KJV

God bless.

Adam,

I want to be very clear regarding our works.

If we believe that God saves us BECAUSE we have in some way been obedient to the Law of God, i.e. good works. That is a gospel of Grace plus Works. That is not the True Gospel of the Bible.

The passages you reference in James and others are proof that if God has indeed saved us there will be evidence in our life that this is so by our increasing obedience to the Law of God because we now have a resurrected soul that desires this and is no longer in rebellion against God. But our resurrected soul, which cannot initiate sin, still resides in a body that lusts after sin and so, until God completes our salvation at the Last Day by giving us our resurrected spiritual body, we will not obey God's Law perfectly, and can indeed even fall into grievous sin, like David did, as we take our eyes off Christ. But we see David's reaction to this in Psalm 51.

The bottom line is that if God has saved us, if we have become a "new creature in Christ", we will find in our life an Ernest Ongoing desire to be obedient to God. This will be the RESULT of our salvation but not the CAUSE. This is why we are commanded to "crucify the flesh and its desires". It is only God's Mercy if He has saved us because we do not deserve that salvation in any way.

If we do not see this attitude and repentance from sin in our life it may be that we have not become saved. As God warns us to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith".

But as long as we have the breath of life or until Christ returns at the Last Day, we may still cry out to God for His Mercy, as did the Ninevites, that God might save us.

"A broken and contrite heart I will not despise".

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, God Himself. Our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way.

Everything you wrote is explained by James 2:18. Take up these concerns with God, not me.

If we don't have eternal life now we don't have nothing to apply our faith to , Hi S Spenser . Just a quick comment on your last sentence , I have faith that I will be ressurected when Christ returns , I believe that until then I shall be dead , knowing nothing . Abraham had faith that God would ressurect Isaac . Eternal life in this world is not something that I would want ! My faith is in Christ's sacrifice for my sin's , it's in God's love and mercy towards me , it's in God's righteousness , it's in God's promises about eternal life in His Kingdom , His Kingdom of peace and truth and righteousness , life , love , light , justice , mercy and joy , for all and forever , with Christ on earth for one thousand years . After that , when there has been one last human rebellion , there shall no flesh stand in His sight and God will be all in all . This is my faith . It was Abraham's and David's , God doesn't lie , He called Abraham His friend , my faith is the same as Abraham's . God bless you and everyone who is searching for God's Truth , I hope to rejoice with you all in His Kingdom .

Hi Jema.

Thanks for replying.

You said your faith is in Christ's sacrifice for your sin's. and that's where it should be.

Abram believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Romans 4:20.

In Genesis 15:6-18 God made an unconditional promise to Abraham and performed it alone.

The ritual that constitutes the covenant where they cut these animals in half and walk between them together and if one renege on the covenant what happened to the animals would happen to that person.

God cannot lie so he was protecting Abraham when he entered the covenant alone.

Issac was Abraham's heir and Abraham knew that God keeps his promises and he knew that God would have to raise him from the dead to keep his promises.

God is Love but he is also a righteous judge. There is no where in scripture it says God saves us by his love. It says God so loved the world He provided us a savior and that savior was his Son. John 3:16.

The bible teaches us the wages of sin is death and the gift of God through Christ is eternal life. Romans 6:20-23.

The lost sinner's heart is energized by the ( Everlasting evil Spirit of this unrepentant world that is being held back by restraint of the Holyspirit.

I believe in hell and those who go there will be tormented.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Unquenchable fire.

There would have to be an awareness of pain and agony to Weep and Nash teeth.

And "Unquenchable fire" is unnecessary if it's unquenchable for no one.

Matthew 22:13

Psalm 112:10.

The bible describes hell as a place of torment.

You have to be awake to be tormented.

God bless.

But that would mean that those sinners in hell are in some form or other still alive ? How can they live forever when eternal life is the gift of God to those who believe in His Son ? The wages of sin is death , so surely that means that those who die in their sin are dead , not alive and on some level conscious in a place of torture . That's a contradiction that I can't come to terms with . We will all know all things eventually S Spenser and just because some of us disagree on some points doesn't mean that we can't all still learn something from each other , at least I hope that's the case :) . Blessings to you .

Jesus does promise us eternal life.

1 John 2:25

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

But to receive this promise we must do what?

In addition to believing that Christ is our Savior, repenting from sin, receive baptism, and finally and most important, we must live for Christ, by rejecting this world, picking up our cross and following Jesus. Just tells us how he expects us to "live our lives" in order to receive the promise of eternal life!

Matthew 16:24

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Most Christian's today (including me) want to believe they are already Saved, and no matter what - we already have OUR salvation. We want to live our worldy lives, accumulating more money, buying more material things, participating in all types worldly things to get ahead and make our lives easier. We seem to fill most of our days attending sports events, and all types of other worldly things, rather than pursuing Godly activities that Jesus tells us we must do.

The big question that we need to ask ourselves: Are we exchanging our "promise of Salvation" for worldly things"? And are we living our lives as commanded by Jesus?

Jesus never tells us we get a free ticket to Salvation by just believing, and we don't receive our salvation until we receive it at the great judgement day. So then, if we want to receive "the promise" don't we need pick up our cross and follow Jesus?

GB

Then what is 1st Corinthians Ch 15 V 12-28 all about ? If we are in Christ we don't die , we sleep in him until he returns and ressurects us . Sinners die in their sin ,we live in Christ always .

I think those are metaphors.

1 Cor 15:18,20 talk about "sleep" which I believe refers to those who died and are awaiting Christ's return.

Yes , I agree with you . Have you noticed though that unbelievers are never 'asleep ' they are always dead in their sins , this sleep seems to only ever be applied to the faithful .

Jema,

We have to make a distinction between our physical body and our soul. Both are very, very real. And together make up who we are. Before God applies his salvation to our life, we are spiritually dead and subject to eternal death in body and soul. When God applies salvation to our life, i.e. when we are Born Again in our soul. God gives us a new resurrected soul in which we have eternal life. Our Resurrected soul will never die.

But nothing has happened to our body yet. Our body is still lusting after sin. And is still Subject to physical death, just like the body of an unsaved person. So when a believer dies physically, their soul goes to live with Christ in heaven, because that is the part of them that has been "saved". And their body goes into the grave and decays just like any unsaved person's body. But at the Last Day, Christ returns with all of the believers that are with him in heaven in their soul existence, and the bodies of all believers are resurrected alt, a glorified spiritual body, and reunited with their resurrected soul to form a complete personality, which will live and reign with Christ in the new heaven and new earth eternally. Or, if we have not already died physically when He returns, our body of flesh and bone is changed, in the twinkle of an eye, into a glorified spiritual body.

Our salvation is only partially complete at the time we have become Born Again. Our salvation is completed when we receive our glorified spiritual body at the Last Day.

Our finite minds cannot grasp the full extent of the glory and wonder of God's Salvation plan nor its mechanics. But we read in the Bible what God has revealed to us and we accept it in faith.

Regarding the resurrection of the unsaved, that will also occur at the Last Day but it is not a resurrection to life or consciousness existence. That must be discussed in the context of God's overall Judgment process which is complex and I'm not prepared to address that at this time.

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Yes Adam, these are a few important verses that I believe prove that a repentant sinner, seeking forgiveness & then being born again by God's Spirit, can be assured of salvation now & can never be lost. That the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer & perseveres with him/her to keep them saved & to warn & bring back those who fail in faith. Those who don't have assurance of salvation, probably are not familiar with the Scriptures, or have been taught that only perseverance & abiding by God's Commandments can they be saved, at least have any chance of getting approval at that final judgement day, or never been truly saved in the first place. Whereas, the one born again of God's Spirit will be given power to persevere & keep ALL of God's Commandments, & the avenue of repentance is there so that restitution & joy in a faithful God will be restored.

Ephesians 1:4,5 (God's choosing & predestining; His elect)

Ephesians 1:13,14 (Gift of the Holy Spirit; His Sealing & Guarantee till final redemption/reception of His child)

1 John 5:13 (we know that Eternal Life is our possession, not hoped for)

Romans 8:9,15,29,30,38,39 (nothing will separate us from God's Love - not from outside, nor from within, for we are His & will be led by His Spirit continually)

Hi Chris, thanks for the verses.

Notice that you answered a different question though. You said assurance of salvation, but that is different from what people saying they were already saved (while still alive on earth).

Common example I hear people say: "Back when I got saved, I..."

I'm looking for a verse that actually says we're saved instantly as soon as we decide to follow Christ. So far I have not found a single verse saying that. With such a prominent belief, I would think there would be dozens of verses saying that but I have not seen a single verse. Instead there's several verses saying the opposite- indicating that salvation isn't received until the end when we are judged. That order also makes logical sense too.

If anyone can find even 1 verse that clearly says people are saved immediately (not just assurance of salvation) that would be appreciated.

Adam there is a verse saying while we were yet sinners Christ died for us Romans 5:6....So before we were born Christ has already died for us....And i was found of them that sought me NOT And made manifest unto them that asked not after me.....k lemme go

Adam, actually I thought I did answer your question. I did state, "a repentant sinner, seeking forgiveness & then being born again by God's Spirit, can be assured of salvation NOW & can never be lost." I believe that those verses show that one can be assured of salvation at the very moment of being born again. And that can only be by the Spirit's indwelling, assurance, & empowering. I do admit that not every born again believer can go back to a specific date when that occurred (e.g. a child or young person who has been brought up in a godly home & in time as the Gospel was presented to him, has confessed & turned to Jesus for salvation). It may not have been so noticeable at that time, as when an adult, especially repentant of much sin, turns from it to Jesus. I remember my date of re-birth as October 25, 1979, when the Holy Spirit descended upon me & with much torment of soul, I relented to His overpowering Work of conviction & provision of the only Way of Salvation.

So the verses as I shared with you, at least speak to me of that time in my life when the Godhead had dealings with me by His intrusion into my ungodly life; that at the time of weeping for my sins & moments later rejoicing with joy unspeakable, that God had forgiven me & had done a very specific work of indwelling; I believe the Apostle Paul called it being sealed with the Holy Spirit, the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. If a sinner cannot be saved immediately, then I wonder what his state might be, both spiritual & mental. If I had not such knowledge & experience, I could well flounder through life, doing my best to love, please, & serve my Lord, never knowing that the faith & resulting works I presented to Him could ever be good enough till Judgement Day. And so my question to any who believe that salvation is not guaranteed now is: how do you go through life hoping for salvation or even knowing that you could lose faith in the interim & be lost?

Hi Chris

I just read your testimony of being born-again Oct 25/ 79. From our past conversations you stated that the two genlteman that posted before you gave good answers for the continuing in sin for life, so you would not add to it. Considering 1Jn3:5-10

Would you agree they're are some serious inconsistencies in your faith & the others who responded, that are very contrary to what the Scriptures plainly declare of being born again?

I do speak this out of concern for you & all others of like mindedness, for if our beliefs does not align up with Scriptures, then the expectation of our end will be false

Rev 22:15 the NKJV ends it with "love & practice a lie".

I pray that all would consider God's words, Proverbs 4:20; Matt 24:35

Thank you Frankie J for your comment. Yes I did state, in support of the other comments, that sin would always be evident in a person's life while we walk this Earth. Not that we should let sin take control & then take comfort because we are saved, but that because we are saved, have been given God's Holy Spirit, therefore we ought to walk in that newness of life, hating even the smell of sin. But does sin ever leave us? As long as we're in sinful flesh, its appeal will always come to us in all its forms. How we deal with it, will reveal how well we are abiding in Christ & walking in the Spirit.

Then to Consider 1 John 3:4-10: as you have maybe implied that in verses 4, 8, 9, the word 'commit' is the active verb in relation to the one sinning. However, verse 6 hasn't got the word 'commit' but it is certainly implied, given that this was what John was writing about as he wrote it in those other verses.

So, does anyone who 'abides in Christ not sin (v6)?' If we are to consider verses 4, 8, & 9, then 'commit' is the same Greek word (poiei) for 'practising' (in these verses, as a 'present, active, participle verb'). This means, that John is not writing about a Christian not ever committing any sins, but that his life is not marked by a life of continual sin. Why not? Because if the one born again (v9) has been truly regenerated, he is now "abiding in Christ" (v6); that new relationship with the Holy Spirit & His Power in his life simply cannot permit a lifestyle of sin. If a Christian finds it easy to sin & continue unabated in it, he would need to have a close examination of himself, & done so in all haste, for verse 8 marks him as belonging to the devil.