Bible Discussion Thread

Is there a pre post tribulation

S.Spencer

I think you are correct on this. The people of the prince that is to come was (most likely) the Romans who surrounded Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and left it desolate, as Jesus prophesied in Mt. 23:38.

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for replying.

I wish I had time to elaborate further.

Perhaps this weekend.

God bless

S. Spencer,

Sure thing.

Hi Jimbob.

I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."

I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.

"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.

The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.

The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.

2 Thessalonians 2:4.

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

God bless.

Hey brother S Spencer,

I know this has been discussed before and we have different understandings, but just have a couple of thoughts to consider, I will not go over all this prophecy just the first of 9:27.

If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The antichrist will make a covenant with Israel. We go to Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: So here we have the last week/7 years and he is said to be the antichrist.

"He shall confirm the covenant with many", could he in this verse fit Jesus? Psalms 105:8-11 Isaiah 42:6 Isaiah 49:8 Isaiah 49:6 Romans 15:8 Galatians 3:17 Hebrews 13:20 I could list many more. The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed. Confirm means to strengthen, to be stronger.

God made a covenant with Abraham and Abraham said God would provide Himself a Lamb, Genesis 22:7-8, was Jesus this Lamb, Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29 Revelation 5:6. This covenant is with many, Zechariah 2:11 Isaiah 53:11 Matthew 20:28 Matthew 26:28 Romans 5:15,19. Jesus was sent to confirm the promise/covenant made unto Abraham, Romans 15:8. Could Jesus be this he?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" Sacrifice and Oblation, the first word is talking about the daily sacrifices, the Tamid, the morning and evening lamb the same time Jesus was on the cross 9 AM the first to 3 PM the last. Then the second word refers to all of the other offerings presented to the Lord.

Do you think the sacrifice and oblation was designed by God to completely cease upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross? Hebrews 9.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald.

Part 2.

This section I will go back to Daniel 2, Daniel 7 and Daniel 9.

In these chapters notice the consistency in the players involved. "The beast, little horn, Prince of the people that shall come being one of them. We will trace this character back to revelation.

Daniel 2:32-45 Daniel interprets King Nebuchadnezzars dream, this is the history of the reign of the Gentiles nations from man's viewpoint with the metal images mixed with clay. ( BABYLON, MADO-PERSIA, GREECE, ROME.)

In Daniel 7 we see the same material presented differently.

You see the same material as a series of beast. This is a vision from Gods viewpoint.

Revelation 13:1-4 connects the beast in Daniel 7 to the Antichrist.

In Daniel 2;35-44 we see Christ destroy 4th and final kingdom and its ruler and set up his own everlasting kingdom.

( Daniel 2:44.) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

( Also see Daniel 7:14.)

This haven't happened yet, and it didn't happen at the cross.

There's still not a kingdom or a King in Israel as described throughout the OT. And there is NO peace!

When studying these chapters, we see the little horn/beast rises out of these 10 horns/kingdoms.

Daniel 7:8-13 describes the end of this last and present empire.

Revelation 19:19 amplifies. that. Hasn't happened yet.

CONCERNING THE SACRIFICES.

There will be sacrifices in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:6-8. Zechariah 14:16. Jeremiah 33:15-18. Ezekiel 43:18. Ezekiel 46:24. Ezekiel 40:1-49.

Sacrifices never took away sins.

The sacrifices in the OT pointed forward to one who would come and take away sins and the sacrifices in the Kingdom will point backwards to the one who came and took away sins.

The Antichrist will present himself as Christ and the start of the expected Kingdom.

God bless.

Yes S Spenser ! :) There will be sacrifices in God's Kingdom , this is made very clear in Ezekiel . I think that this is because there will be sinful humans living on earth during Christ's one thousand years , humans will be born into this Kingdom and won't have ever known anything other than life in it . Where there is sinful flesh there is the need for sacrifice , those humans will not have the same faith in Christ as we do because they will see him and us , in our changed bodies , we will be the normal to them , whereas we have not seen Christ as yet and we walk by faith not by sight and it is our faith that will be rewarded . We chose to believe and obey , they won't make that choice because they will see him and , eventually Christ will be rejected by some of them and they will rebel . They will be destroyed in the lake of fire with the devil and the beast and the false prophet . Those humans that lived and died during the one thousand years will be ressurected and judged and then comes the end , when God will be all in all . Ezekiel is a hard book for me still but those chapters that tell us of the New Temple and the Prince , they are awesome ! They make my spine tingle :) .

Hi S Spencer, thank you, brother.

I know you travel. Concerning part 1, vs. 26 the people of the prince; my understanding.

"the people of the prince that shall come", the word (of) makes a connection between two entities, like, the wheels of a car, the legs of a table, or the soldiers/people of the prince.

In Vs. 26 the word of unites the people to the prince. If the people were the ones who destroyed the city and sanctuary/temple in 70 AD, the prince was either Titus or as some say, Jesus, like God used Babylon in 586 BC due to the same Hebrew word for the prince being used in Vs. 25.

If the prince in Vs. 26 is the beast/antichrist that shall come, are the people of the prince also to come and destroy the city and sanctuary in the future? How could the beast/antichrist who has not risen as of yet, have and control people in 70 AD?

I do not see Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Dan. 2 connected to Dan. 9. My understanding of that is the head is Babylon, the breast and arms are the Medo-Persian Empire, the belly and thighs are the Greek Empire, the legs are the Roman Empire, and the mixed feet and toes are the future ten kings/kingdoms of the beast Rev. 17:12-14 and the stone is Jesus's second coming Rev. 19:11-21.

My understanding of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27 "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate," (the abominations are the evil the leaders have done and they did not hear God's word, the charge) (he shall make it desolate is for this the city and temple will be left desolate, the sentence, utter destruction) Matt. 23:39 pointing to His second coming.

See part 2

Hi Ronald.

Part 1

Sorry so late of a response!

I will first speak on your 1st question as a springboard to get into this topic concerning the 69th and 70 week of Daniel 9:26-27.

Your quote.

"If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel. End quote.

Ronald, Daniel outlines the sequence of events in the opposite order than what you present in the 69th week. We see the Messiah cut off. But if you look at Verse 26 Carefully " The People of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the sanctuary. This puts his arrival after the destruction of Jerusalem. This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.

This is saying, this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary, but the This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.

PRINCE THAT SHALL COME hasn't come yet.

Let's examine this.

Beginning with Daniel 9:25. This is where the 69 weeks end. We know that by the beginning of vs 26, ( And after threescore and two weeks )

and here's why I place this at his entry into Jerusalem riding a donkey, In Luke 19:37-39 we see the multitude singing, referring to Psalms 118:26. parallel that with Luke 19:38. The Pharisees saw that as blasphemy!

Psalms 118:22-26 is the scope of scope of Daniel's prophecies and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

BUT

They denied there king and here's Jesus answer to that in Matthew 23:37-38.

This is the only time Christ presented himself as king!

See part 2.

S Spencer

Part 2

If we look at the saying "the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" spoken of by Daniel the prophet we see in Dan. 11:31 the abomination that maketh desolate and Dan. 12:11 the abomination that maketh desolate set up. In these two, an abomination is a single act of putting up a pagan idol, sacrificing an unclean animal, or defiling the Holy of Holies in the temple.

But the act done in the temple, the abomination is what makes it desolate, like what Antiochus did, and if I am not wrong this is something that is said the beast/antichrist will do. In Dan. 9 it is for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. For the overspreading of abominations, this is not a single act, it is many acts and plural abominations and for these abominations, he, God by Jesus makes it desolate, the city and the temple, not by one doing a single act that makes just the temple desolate.

My understanding Dan. 2 and 7 have no connection to Dan. 9. The only way is if the prince in Vs. 26 and the he in Vs. 27 is the beast/antichrist. My understanding of scripture they do not support this. If the last week was in the past what does that mean for those who are looking for it in the future?

I know we differ on this, but I hope this helps see where my understanding comes from.

In love, God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Concerning part 1 of your reply.

Rome destroyed the city.

The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.

I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.

In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.

You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.

But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!

( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,

However, Jesus points this to a end time event.

Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.

Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?

Are we in it or is it future?

If future, can you give me your view chronologically?

This will help me understand where you are coming from.

God bless.

Hi S Spencer

We are not in the millennium it is after His second coming. He defeats the ten kingdoms/countries the army of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet at Armageddon the great supper of God, Rev. 16:12-16 Rev,17:12-14 Rev. 19:11-2. Then Satan is put in the bottomless pit, Rev 20:1-3.

Judgment of those in the first resurrection who will reign with Jesus Rev. 20:4-6, the kingdom is set up and will last for 1000 years, then Satan is released and deceives the world and gathers them, the number as the sands of the sea around the camp of the saints at Jerusalem to the last battle. Fire comes down from heaven and devoured them and Satan is cast into the lake of fire,

Then the white throne judgment of all who were not in the first judgment will be judged and all whosoever was not found in the Book of Life were cast into the lake of fire. Dan. 12:1-3 Matt. 12:36 John 5:28-29 Acts 17:31 Eccl. 12:14

We cannot put the people in 70 AD and the prince in the future. The door of the ark, the men of the city, the lambs of the flock, these things cannot be separated. It is the people that shall come, who are of the prince and this prince is not some future being who had nothing to do with 70 AD.

We know by scripture Jesus confirmed the covenant and we know by scripture He was cut off/crucified and we know by scripture by His death there is no more offering for sin, they ceased, Heb. 10:14-18

Matt. 24:14-15 can also have been for those in 66-70AD history records the believers in Jesus got out and went to Pella, Luke 19:43-44 Luke 21:20-21. My other posts should show my understanding is Dan. 9 does not apply to the end times it was a prophecy of the Messiah, Jesus, and the amount of time given to Daniel's people, the city of Jerusalem, and the temple, and the judgment for their abominations.

After the 70 weeks, the mystery of the Gospel that was hidden was revealed to the Gentiles, Acts 8:54-57 Acts 9:3-15 Acts 10:9-16 Rom. 11:25

God bless,

RLW

Great posts , thankyou .

Ronald

I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.

However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.

The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.

Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.

So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:8-12.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.

Goodnight brother.

Hi S Spencer

Sorry brother did not see your last post. I know we differ on this, as long as we inspire each other to study both sides we are doing ok. I feel the word antichrist has been used so many times having people looking for the wrong thing. This beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 17:8 we don't know what he will look like, the man of sin.

The word antichrist is not in Revelation, and where we see it in 1 John 2:18,22 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7 all are describing people or the spirit of antichrist, deceivers not a beast. There has been people from the time Jesus ascended claiming to be the Messiah and will deliver them from Roman oppression up to revolts before 70 AD. There was one in Acts 21:38 and some others and probably some today.

2 Thessalonians 2:4, which says this beast will exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. Above God, or whatever people all over this world worship, this will be a world event for people of all religions. I agree the deception will be great and he may appear to many as Christ or what or who other people worship. I am sure many will accept him as the Christ.

In Revelation, we have Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and fallen angels on this earth, all working against God, Jesus, and all who have faith in them, it will not be a pleasant time. From the time Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and Satan gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast I only see 3.5 years not 7. And I do not see anyone taken out only the second coming of Jesus. 7 years only comes from Daniel 9 whether that turns out to be true or false. Hope this makes some sense.

God bless

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for responding.

I will get in touch with you this weekend.

Busy week.

God bless

Amen to that . Thankyou .

I look around me every day and see people worshipping and putting all their faith and trust in.....technology . They walk and even drive whilst staring at their phones , they give their phones so much power over their lives , they bank on it , put all their personal info on it , look at vile things on it , trust anything and everything that it tells them . If someone tells me some info from the internet and I happen to know that the info is actually incorrect , when I tell that person they look at me as if I'm crazy ! These are people who know me and they trust the internet more than they trust me , a person whom they have know to be sane and reasonably clever , for years and years . People trust technology and the people who make technology . That's where the faith of an enormous number of people , from all walks of life and countries and cultures and religions across the board , the whole world is staring at their phones and i pads and are believing what the internet says and trusting in it, more than they trust in any actual flesh and blood human who might tell them something . How many times have you told somebody something and the first thing they do is check the internet to see if you are correct or not ? How many times have you read something on the internet that you know for sure isn't true ? It doesn't matter if it's true or not , to a lot of people it must be true cos it says so on the internet . The temple of technology is all around us , lets make sure that we walk circumspect and remember Who is really in charge . Our Dear Heavenly Father , Thy Kingdom Come .

Hi Jema, thank you.

This is just my opinion; when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil the knowledge of imagination entered, and we see how imagination of thoughts became the desires of the flesh. Imagination makes it possible to experience a whole world inside the mind. One can imagine a sound, taste, smell, physical sensation, feeling, emotion. Fantasy becomes reality in our mind.

We see in scripture its effects Genesis 6:5 Proverbs 6:18 Jeremiah 13:10 it battles against our conscience, and it suckers us into the belief it is a secret in our minds, it's ok because no one knows. But as David told Solomon God knows the hearts of all, 1 Chronicles 28:9.

Technology is good and beneficial to man but in our imagination, it is intoxicating and addictive, it can create a world with no limits and Satan uses it for his evil and it may be a key to the seduction of the beast and false prophet who are coming. Deceived has a scary and deceptive description, to be taken out of the way, the sad thing someone may not even know it. Galatians 6:7-10

It is like the poem the spider to the fly. "Will you walk into my parlour said the spider to the fly; Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy". A temptation that looks innocent, but death lurks hidden inside.

God bless,

RLW

[Comment Removed]

Yes Ronald , if sin were so easy to identify we would see it coming a mile away , but it's a cunning serpent , Luke 16 V 15 , if we think about this , deeply and honestly , we can see that everything that most human societies put value upon , God finds to be abominable , that's a big and serious word that we need to take notice of .

AMEN Brother Ronald:

You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.

Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11

Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....

Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....

All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.

All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.

Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....

Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.

ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.

The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22

Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......

God bless you!

Hi Landry,

We agree on Daniel 9:25-27 is a prophecy about the Messiah/Christ, the temple, Jerusalem, and Daniel's people, but the rest of your reply, our understandings are different, and I would not know how to reply, but to say a prayer for all of us. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

God bless,

RLW

Amen Brother Ronald:

We go from grace to grace as the Spirit of truth sees fit, I am constantly repenting of what I believe; as more light is given, sometime in a short period of time, sometime in longer lengths of time, there is a TIME for every purpose under heaven.

I once believed the prince in Daniel referred to the antichrist, but the Spirit of Truth CAUSED me to repent of my belief.

It's all the WORK of God, as HE see fit.

God bless you!

Hello Ronald,

I too have studied this chapter of Daniel more in the past few months, and I agree with you, that the Prince that is to come is Jesus, He appears in the beginning of the 70th week which began when He began His public ministry after HIs baptism. In the middle of the 70th week (after 3.5 years) the Messiah is cut off. But before His death He confirms the everlasting covenant made between Himself and the Father concerning salvation with many (thinking the last supper where Jesus introduced the new covenant made with His body and blood as the final sacrifice). This covenant is for all peoples not just the Jews. And for 3.5 eyars after His resurrection and ascension the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews, then they turned to the Gentiles. So 3.5 years - or 1 week in Daniel's vision. I do believe that the 70th week was completed in Jesus life and that the desolation of abomination was the utter destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism in 70 A.D. However, we can also consider if Daniel's prophecies may have , in part, double fulfillment - in the 1st century and in the last times.

I understand that you may not hold all of this viewpoint I have presented. It was good to read your query here about another interpretation of Daniel's prophecy other than the dispensational premillennial position presented by Chris and Spencer and others on this forum.

Thanks for presented another perspective.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you we are very close in our understanding, some of the prophecies I believe may have a two-fold fulfillment, but I do not see the 70-week have a future fulfillment. The way Gabriel gave this to Daniel I understand this prophecy as a renewed probationary period for Jerusalem and the Jewish people after the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, so God is giving them 490 years to straighten up and it was seventy consecutive weeks with no gap.

The thought that the abomination the antichrist does with defiling the temple with an idol like Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160's B.C. caused the desolation. The warning Jesus gave when they see the abomination of desolation flea Judea in my understanding what happened in 67-70 AD was a second fulfillment of what we see in parts of Dan. 8 and 11 it has been a while since I have studied those.

The abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel in Matt. 24: and Mark 13:14 Jesus said when they see this happen to flea Judea into the mountains. This is said to be when the antichrist defiles the temple and breaks the covenant in the middle of the week/7 years and the great tribulation begins. The abomination done by the antichrist will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

If we look at Dan. 9:27 the way it is worded it is not the one who does the abomination that makes it desolate like in Daniel 11 and 12 the abomination that makes desolate. In Dan. 9:27 it is written like a penalty they were charged with, "for the overspreading of abominations" and the sentence given is "he will make it desolate" and I believe this he is Jesus, Matt. 23:32-39.

The same way God used Babylon to destroy Jerusalem He used Rome, the people of the prince maybe Tiitus because he did not want to destroy the temple.

Sorry, I got wordy.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald,

I completely agree with your analysis of this Scripture passage.

Hi Ronald.

One other note I would like to mention.

The passage says; "AND THE PEOPLE" of the prince that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY;"

If that's Jesus then the Romans was his people!

Blessings Brother.

Hi S Spencer,

Didn't say anything about the people of the prince. Forgive me if I get this wrong; the people of the prince that shall come. "of the" connects the people and the prince so they were there at the same time since the people (the Roman army) was the one who destroyed the city and the temple.

How can "he" who is said to be the antichrist in verse 27 refer to the "prince" in verse 26 unless the antichrist was back in 70 AD.

I probably messed that up. I do not know how that is understood or explained.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for your reply.

I have to disagree with you here.

I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.

But I will look at one aspect of your questions.

Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.

He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?

Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.

Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.

Let's continue.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .

This is clearly the prince that shall come.

If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.

Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15

God bless.

Hi Jimbob.

Oops I stated; "I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week"

I left out Antichrist. I meant to say I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise od the Antichrist and first half of the 70th week.

Therefore he comes at the beginning of the 70th week but the Great tribulation starts mid week.

God bless

Spencer thank you for responding. Would you mind answering a question on how you see things in the 24th chapter of Matthew?

You said "Therefore he comes (you were speaking of the antichrist here) at the beginning of the 70th week but the Great tribulation starts mid week".

Where is the beginning of the 70th week from your understanding in Mathew Ch.24 Spencer?

I believe that the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and the start of great tribulation in ( Mt. 24:15,21) is in perfect alignment with ( Rev. 13:2-7) really the whole chapter of (Rev.13) This is when Satan gives the antichrist his power, and seat, and great authority, and power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations in ( Rev. 13:2-7)

At this time the antichrist will be ruler of the world and making war with all True Believers in Jesus Christ ( Rev. 12:17)

And he will try to force the mark of the beast on them ( Rev. 13:16-18) but only to kill them.

( Rev. 13:8) "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, (or accept his mark) whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"

He has all the world worshipping him, but True Believers in Jesus Christ will not worship him ( Rev. 20:4)

All these things will happen the last 3 1/2 year time period of great tribulation which will be shortened for the elect's sake ( Mt. 24:22) This is what I understand from these verses.

Thank you again Spencer, I do believe this to be a very important topic to discuss for the time period we are living today.

Everybody should be trying to understand the truth in this subject from Scripture.

God Bless.

Hi Jimbob.

According to Matthew 24, the short and correct answer is no one knows.

But we do know it haven't started yet by the description of it.

I will get with you over the weekend.

Gos bless.

Chris I mean no offence here but if you don't mind would you please show where you get, or how you come up with the great tribulation being a 7 year time period?

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No offence at all Jimbob; always glad to share with you. I believe you know the passage well, that which is found in Daniel 9:20-27 & this subject has come up often in these pages over the years.

In my understanding of this passage, the mention of 'weeks' is taken to mean 'weeks of years', i.e. where 'seventy weeks' are seen in verse 24. Then the 'seventy weeks' (or, seventy sevens) equate to 490 years. This then is the basis from which the ensuing dates & events fall out. If you have disagreement on this, or other thoughts, then please read no further as you won't subscribe to any of it.

So, as verse 24 gives us, this full period of 490 years "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" will at its completion, "finish the transgression, make an end of sins...to bring in everlasting righteousness...". And then from Daniel 9:25, we get the timeline of future events (i.e. from Daniel's vantage point & with our limited view & understanding).

a. of the 490 years, 49 years were accomplished: that is, from Artaxerxes commandment (in 445 BC; Nehemiah chap 2 onwards) to 'restore & build Jerusalem' to its accomplishment 49 years later.

b. then after the completion of 49 years & then a further 434 years ("threescore and two weeks") were then fulfilled by the coming of Jesus the Messiah & His Crucifixion.

c. after the 434 years & the death of Jesus, in time (AD 70) "the people of the prince that shall come" (led by Gen Titus of Rome) will desecrate the Temple & destroy Jerusalem.

d. now we have the full completion of 69 weeks (or 483 years of the 490 years prophesied), but one week (7 years) of the seventy weeks remain. Daniel 9:27, "And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". This wasn't Titus or the people of Rome, but these men were the people of the "prince that SHALL COME" (i.e. another coming person that is referred to in verse 27).

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e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?

There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.

If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.

Chris thank you for your response. I do agree with you in most of your comment, but I don't agree the great tribulation is a 7 year time period.

If we look at ( Mt. 24:15,21) What starts great tribulation according to these verses? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That would be when the antichrist, the son of perdition exalteth himself above all that is called God in ( 2 Thess. 2:4) This happens in the midst of the week in ( Dan. 9:27) The midst is the halfway point, Right?

( Dan. 11:36-39) These verses call him "the king". v36 tells us ""and he shall (exalt himself), and (magnify himself) above ever god, and shall speak marvellous things (against the God of gods)".

Th antichrist is given power to continue forty and two months which is 3 1/2 years in ( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 tells us the time period is forty and two months 3 1/2 years. v6 tells us "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God". v7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". This happens during the last 3 1/2 years which is shortened for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:22) Just a little farther down the chapter in ( Rev. 13:11-15) we see the deadly would healed, him doing great wonders, preforming miracles to deceive even the elect if possible. Then there's ( Rev. 13:15-18) The last 3 1/2 years will be the time of the mark of the beast.

Chris if this is the correct interpretation and I do believe it is, then that means ( Mt. 24:4-8) (9-14) "the beginning of sorrows" is the first 3 1/2 year period, (and in the midst) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 year period ( Mt. 24:15,21).

Then we see how God shortened those days for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation". v30 "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". v31 "and they shall gather together his elect".

Blessing to you Chris.

Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:

'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'

You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.

Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.

Chris thank you for your reply.

When the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place that starts great tribulation, right? The word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble. The last 3 1/2 years will be the time period that Satan has been cast to the earth ( Rev. 12:7-9) In ( Rev. 12:12-14) v12 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil ((is come down unto you)), ((having great wrath)), because ((he knoweth he hath but a short time))". (This "Woe" would be the same time period as ( Mt. 24:21) "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". (Also the wrath of God, and this time period of Satan having great wrath on the inhabiters of the earth are not the same time periods, Satan will persecute, even beheading Believers. God's wrath is poured out on all non-believers in Jesus Christ)

(This wrath from Satan will be really BAD, and EVIL times! The mark of the beast will be during this time period ( Rev. 13:16-18).

( Rev. 12:14) gives us a time period "where she is nourished for a time, a times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent".

That is 3 1/2 years, that would be the last 3 1/2 years.

( Rev. 12:17) Tells us "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Now the next chapter ( Rev. 13:1-4) We see the dragon (Satan) giving power to the beast.

( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 the beast (antichrist) is given power to continue forty two months, (3 1/2 years)

v7 he is given power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. The last 3 1/2 years.

What part of the last 7 years that you see as being great tribulation would Satan be cast to the earth?

Again thank you Chris.