Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness that we have done,..but acccording to his mercy and the washing and regeneration ( multiplication) of his Seed HE SAVED US....He wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts so as to multiply himself in humanity. the field is the world....Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the word of God that liveth and abideth forever....The living word that new covenant, That book that he wrote with his own blood at Calvary the words of life....There is only 1 yardstick and thats the fruit that comes from his precious seed sown in our hearts which is a baby Christ the H.G. .That which is born of the spirit is spirit which is the H.G. our new heart and new spirit....Nothin availeth any thing in Christ Jesus but that new creature which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....Which is our fruit unto God via his good seed....The seed of the sower.....1st the Child the H.G. Then the son the H.G....Then the fulness of the Godhead in us the H.G....The Kingdom....3 MEASURES The woman in Rev. 12:10 Does not receive the Kingdom till she births the manchild....As Jesus said unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there n..Indicative of a heavenly Birth of a baby Christ in us which is the H.G. THE CHILD OF PROMISE....Thats y he has to know us....He wants to regenerate himself in humanity....Thats y he is saying whosoever receiveth one such child in my name RECEIVETH ME..The Child is the H.G. As that which is born of the spirit is spirit thats the H.G. the Child of Promise....The H.G. is that Child of Promise....As the great promise was i will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven....Thus the babes and sucklings that can worship God with a perfect Praise that are gonna be born in us....Our new heart and new spirit via his good seed the living word....They don't call him the bridegroom for nothin....He has a seed to sow in humanity....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains....Jere 30:6
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:11-16.
When that light gets to bright we're asked to put it out.
Jesus said these things are hid from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes.... Mat. 11:25....Which is that born of the spirit the H.G. As we have born the image of the earthly we must also bear (birth) the image of the heavenly which is the H.G....Which is our new innerman that has to be born in us via the seed of the sower a spiritual Seed/being.....10 times in the New Testament its tells us about birthing a new innerman....Which is that New Creature the H.G.....But when something is Hid by God ...Nobody can find it....6 k yrs have gone by and the world don't understand this New Covenant of multiplication of Christ seed....Gen.22:17....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven.....Thats y the sower has to go forth and sow his precious seed in humanity.....Resulting in the book being opened and us being bornagain of his incorruptible seed....The living word not the written word....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains....We are gonna birth a baby Christ which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....Why do we refer to the H.G. AS THE PROMISE?....Simply b/c the H.G. is the multiplication of Christ in us.....Remember the multiplication of Christ seed was that great Promise....God was so passionate about this multiplication of Christ that he swore by his very self....Thats when the woman in Rev 12:5 is giving birth to the Children of Promise....And thats when satan the dragon wants kill the woman and her Children.....Simply b/c its the manchild the H.G. the spirit of truth that Judges the prince of this world....Its the womans Child the H.G. that reproves this world of sin and righteousness and Judgement .....But the Child the spirit of truth cannot speak of himself simply b/c he has just been born in us....He is just a spritual infant....That New born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word is the H.G....The multiplication of Christ Jesus in us.....OK LEMME GO
I think it was a little human child that Jesus sat in the midst of them. (not the Holy Spirit). We can become off in our thinking if we don't read the Bible accurately. I don't think Jesus was referring to humbling himself like the Holy Spirit. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. He also goes on the say that whosoever offends one of these little ones. (that is plural meaning more than one). There is only one Holy Spirit.
He literally placed a physical child in the midst of them them; BUT the TEACHING was not about a physical child, but the fact that HIS RESURRECTION was going to make YOU a new creation, a new birth, being raised with Christ.
And whosoever receiveth one such little child (the Holy Ghost) RECEIVETH ME (Christ in you).
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... CHRIST IN YOU ..... the Holy Ghost IN YOU .... the Spirit of God IN YOU .... the LIFE in YOU ..... the TRUTH in YOU ..... you are the BODY OF CHRIST.....
The glory that thou hast given me, I have given them, that as we are ONE, that they may be ONE in us.
The is ONLY one CHILD; but HE dwells, and is the LIFE and TRUTH in all bodies.
You are the body of CHRIST.
Not many understand what the resurrection accomplished.
All men died with Christ on the cross, all men were made alive by being resurrected with Christ.
At each man's appointed time, Christ will CAUSE them to come to TRUTH.
I WILL put my Spirit in YOU and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statues and keep my judgements, and do them.
For it is God that worketh IN YOU both to will and to do his good pleasure.
It is true that Jesus talked in parables, but this chapter is teaching about our humbling ourselves as a little human child, becoming dead to sin, (which is being planted in the likeness of his death so we can be in the likeness of his resurrection). He talks about being converted which is the likeness of his resurrection in the chapter. When you say "All men died with Christ on the cross, all men were made alive by being resurrected with Christ". Do you believe that all men will be saved?
S. Spenser , all I have read on this site is just people giving their thoughts and opinions on the Bible , so far everyone seems very respectful of each others beliefs and polite in their expression of their opinions . The Bible is the Truth and it seems that everyone on here is genuine in their search for understanding , I haven't read anything offensive as yet , some things I don't necessarily agree with but that's freedom of speech and maybe there are plenty of people on here who wouldn't agree with all of my beliefs . This site is a great forum but only because people can speak freely and learn from each other .
I'm just not comfortable in aggressive environments . Passive and veiled aggression are still aggression and I don't like being around either . When Jesus and the Apostles challenged people's beliefs they managed to do it in a totally loving way , we are supposed to be trying very hard to be like them , that means love , real love , not feigned , not just loving in speech but in true feeling for each other . When we speak to anyone but especially to a fellow believer , we must speak through the heart of Christ , not through our own sinful hearts . It's not always easy and I definately fail but I never stop trying with any and everyone and believe me I am sorely tried every day , as I'm sure most of us are . Aggression has no place in a Christian heart , even if our reason behind our aggression is , in our own eyes , justified . We must never give up trying to be as much like our Redeemer as possible and just because we fail that doesn't mean we can't start afresh every day . God's mercies are fresh every day so should our attitude be . The things that we did or said wrong yesterday are gone and forgotten , so today we wake up with a clean heart , let's see how far through the day we can get before we recognise our own sinful behaviour . We need to all remember that God hears our every word and , perhaps more importantly He knows all of our motivations for our words . Are we motivated by love ? Let's hope that we , me included , are always motivated by love and that that love is expressed in our words and behaviour towards others . God is always watching and listening .
Sorry Jema but the Lord says follow me and he was not passive and often rebuked when necessary.
I don't see anywhere in scripture as you say it.
Jesus and his disciples were very direct and didn't turn to the left or right.
In Revelation he warns us of this spiritual fornication and Lukewarmness.
You mentioned Love.
Jesus displays his love for the sheep in John 10. He gives us an example of one who don't love the sheep in John 10:12-13.
These warnings and protection from the wolf is an act of love for the sheep.
Is it considered aggressive when you put so much focus on me and try to muffle me from speaking whar is true concerning this matter and taking little indirect shots on other matters?
Yes I expose their agenda when I feel someone new to the site may need a little more info to understand the direction this person is headed.
It puzzles me when you continue to step in every time I speak on this, but this group I'm referring to never denies the accusations.
Where were you when I was under attack a few months ago for not wanting to engage in a ongoing eschatology thread?
Sorry but I never supported anyone in regards to escatology , I have no clue what escatology is ! And I have no desire to know , all I know and all I want to know is the Bible , I don't do ologies . Please show me how and where I supported anyone about it . Please also make sure that you only message me in the same way that you would speak to me face to face , perhaps if you did that I would not find your attitude so offensive , and yes , you are correct , we will have to agree to disagree . I hate myself for allowing you to slightly annoy me to the extent that I have to message you in this way , well done you .
Eschatology is the term used fpr study of the end times or the consummation of all things at Christ's return. I think it is good to know what these "ology" terms mean so that one can better understand what others are presenting on this forum.
Eschatology is a compound grk word. From Eschatos which means Last, Final and Logos which means Word but it is also used for Study. So it is (as you said) the study of the end (last) times..
It is amazing how many grk words exist in English.
Thanks for your wishes. Well I'm facing some challenges lately but I and my samily are OK. I am just worrying about my son because time is going by and he shows no signs of coming back to God. Fortunately he has got some good mental brakes since he was born in a christian family and knows the Truth. I am here almost everyday, I just haven't posted any comment. I wish you all the best for your family. GBU
Hello Gigi , thankyou for explaining that to me . I just read the Bible and I'm not familiar with the titles that people put on different aspects of it . I take the Bible as a whole thing and the Word of God , to me it's divided into Old and New Testaments , the individual books and that's about it for me , if anyone wants to talk about ' the end times ' I'm up for that :) but turning things into ologies and giving things unnecessarily sesquipedalian titles is not really my style :):):) thanks any way .
Indeed brother S. Spencer, where sin & unrighteousness was evident, the Lord never failed to call them out. Not to say, that we can take the same liberty on every matter, seeing that our understanding or motives may never meet that pure standard of the Lord in everything. But I believe that the Lord expects us to stand for the Truth & to expose falsehood where there is a clear departure from the Word. A part of the reason for the general stagnation of the Church today, is because of their feebleness & fear to be stern, lest they suffer in some way for their boldness & forthrightness. It's much easier to remain quiet & 'let the Lord take care of the matter' than for the Christian to stand for Truth & the pure Word of God.
Matthew chapter 23 is one of those great examples of the Lord's Anger vented against the religious leaders - He did not spare them, fiercely looking upon them, saying "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" ( Matthew 23:33). This wasn't a loving friendly talk with them. And then His Love & yearning Heart poured out in verse 37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Therefore, may our words & emotions behind them be Spirit-charged & not the voice of the flesh. And we need to remember that there may be many others who come to these pages to read, consider & digest the messages - are we not responsible before the Lord to expose error or at the very least, to present the Truth so that the reader may discern? Thank you for your efforts & persistence brother, as I note also with some others here. Blessings.
I believe some think I take pleasure out of debating or disagreement probably because of my direct approach.
I certainly don't!
I don't engage in everything as I used to do, nor do I read every post or replies.
Believe it or not I read very little.
In this case I was giving help where I thought help was needed by way of clarity.
Even when not engaging in a debate, What I find strange is we can have one that says we're saved by grace, another say we're saved by keeping the law, and one says we're all saved no matter what.
They all rebukes one another's message.
Which of the three is most likely to be persecuted by the world?
I am one who does not think that you are looking for disputes on here. I always appreciate your input. We have agreed on so many things and others things we don't. But even so, we both desire to present our POV in the best way we can.
This is a good forum. Most of the time, conversations are helpful. At times things get passionate and that is fine with me. WE should be passionate about getting to the truth of matters concerning what God has revealed in His Word. I don't think this is being aggressive or contrary. I think that most of us are well meaning and also selective about what topics we engage in. What may be very important to one person may not be so to another. Over time we discover one another's sensitivities, which is a good thing.
So, I just wanted to respond to this post after some thought, because I wanted to assure you that I am one who respects you and your contribution. I also respect your straight forward approach, which is similar to my own. I find it refreshing to converse with someone who speaks their mind freely and directly. That helps to keep us from guessing what others are trying to convey.
We always need to consider what people are actually saying without trying to judge someone's motives or tone. I try to avoid doing this because it isn't fair to the other person to assume things they haven't communicated in words and I am one who takes people for what they say in their posts. And I say what I mean and mean what I say as well.
So, be encouraged today, Steven. We are blessed to be here together. When we all meet up in the resurrection, none of our differences will mater anymore because we will know what will actually take place before that time and after. So, all things will be made clear and we will just bask in the blessing of one another in Christ.
Thought I'd comment on your mention "another say we're saved by keeping the law" and ask if you are referring to discussions on this site or elsewhere?
I don't recall seeing a comment on this site claiming we're saved by keeping the law. If you are referring to this site if you can give some examples of that I'd like to read them.
Just referring in general whether on this site or the world.
That's why I said the world persecutes the Gospel message.
I gave an illustration of three different views.
The one that the world hates most is the message of the cross!
The slain Lamb that took away the penalty of sin for the whole world and made an atonement for those who believe.
That's the only message that's deemed foolish to the lost.
1 Corinthians 1:18-21.
That's the partition between those who are truly saved and those who are deceived.
The law is holy as Paul says in Romans 7:12.
But it doesn't regenerate the heart!
The law is the ministration of Death as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3.
When the law came it slew us from Adam and Eve till the end of time!
It declared man guilty!!
It painted the picture of mankind in Adam!
Now that we have the law we also have sin and the wages of sin is death.
The world is softer on you do your best and the Lord will save you by his Love apart from Christ than Christ finish work on the cross apart from the Law.
And it's emphasized in this notion you can loose your Salvation.
If you can't work to get it, you can't work to keep it.
The regeneration by the Holyspirit is a neglected doctrine today.
Our measuring instrument is Love for the Brothern.
That's also misunderstood!
We treat "this Love" as an work rather than a fruit is a big issue.
I agree brother. And the unfortunate thing when confined to discussion/debate via such fora, is that we fail to hear voice intonations, facial/physical expressions, etc., which no doubt would help the reader to more correctly understand how the message is being delivered. I think that is why we need to somehow focus on the message only trying to eliminate our perceived feelings about the other person's emotional feelings, whether good or bad. This of course, is difficult, but just one of the limitations of being confined to a written discussion platform.
And I agree, where the clear Truth of the Word is given (such as the core beliefs found in the Word: of the Triune nature of God, the pure Gospel of Grace alone, of holiness of life in the Spirit, of eternal life or eternal torment that awaits all, & knowing both "the goodness and severity of God"), there should be an unflinching grasp of these Truths which are the foundations of our faith. And these should be proclaimed with all confidence & diligence. Every blessing & encouragement to you brother.
You mention "stagnation" in the churches and congregations of our day. I would say it is far more serious that "stagnation".
If you go into virtually any church to day ant listen to what is being taught, how much different will that be than what you would have found in that same church or denomination 50 or 75 years ago? How much of the World would you see in that church regarding the acceptance of the mores of the World? When was the last time you heard a sermon from the Book of Jeremiah if ever? When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?
What is the Gospel being preached in the churches? Is it a Gospel of Grace alone, where God does 100% of the "work" in saving anyone? Or is it a gospel of Grace plus "works", where Christ has done His part and now its up to us to do our part? Is there any sense at all that not every church member that may appear to be saved may in fact not have become saved and there should be a message of warning to "make our calling and election sure"? Has the gospel in the churches not become more of a social gospel or a political gospel, rather than the True Gospel that we are in terrible trouble with God and desperately need a savior? How many people in the church actually know what they need to be "saved from"?
When we take an honest look at any church today it is not "stagnation" that we see. Is it not where the Bible has lost its Absolute Authority and the authority has become the creeds and confessions developed hundreds of years ago, or worse the ideas of man and a gospel that we like and not the TRUE Gospel of the Bible? Why do you think there are so many different understandings of so many important doctrines in the various churches when that is only ONE TRUTH?
True, David0921, 'stagnation' would be too subtle a word to more fully describe how the Church at large treats God's Word & deals with sin & rebuke of erring ones. Unfortunately, from my limited experience, it seems that the larger the Church (congregation), the weaker they are in some of these areas we've referred to. The smaller, & probably the more exclusive (sectarian) of them, keep a much more rigid control on behavior & adherence to the Word. Yet, saying that, often their teachings also tend to be a little off-track. A few however, I believe, have found the right balance.
Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.
I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.
I have come to believe the Bible does NOT teach that God's Judgment for our sin and rebellion against God includes conscious existence in a place called Hell where we will endure pain and suffering that continues for billions and billions of years without any end, i.e for ever and ever.
The Bible does teach I believe that the wages of sin is eternal death. That is eternal destruction, annihilation. This means of course that if we die unsaved there is no eternal inheritance for us living and reigning with Christ forever in the New Heavens and New Earth in eternal bliss that never ends. All that is lost which in itself is a terrible punishment.
The conventional understanding of God's Final Judgment for sin, of suffering and torment that has no end is inconsistent with everything in the Bible that speaks about the Mercy of God. To believe that would mean that an unsaved baby who dies at childbirth would suffer consciously without any end whatsoever. The idea of an "age of accountability" is nowhere found in the Bible and unless saved in the womb we are sinners from birth as the Bible clearly teaches.
Furthermore God is perfectly righteous which means that God has obligated Himself to follow the Laws that He sets forth, including the Law of Deuteronomy 25:1-3 that punishment for the wicked is Limited. It has an end.
So when when a person dies unsaved they will never again have conscious existence.
Now if we are unsaved and still living when Christ returns to Resurrect and Rapture All whom He has saved throughout time, and enter into the Day of Judgment there will be intense suffering and shaming. But that will come to an end when Christ destroys this sin-cursed earth and Satan and all the fallen angels by fire, and there will be no remembrance of anything related to this creation in eternity. God then creates New Heavens and a New Earth where all of those saved will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity, world without end.
Thank you David0921 for your reply. I just wanted to confirm that this was your belief, even though you had mentioned, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" I couldn't imagine what this 'sermon' would have entailed, given what you earlier stated. And even now I wonder, if you were the preacher dealing with this subject of the spirit & soul's eternity, how you would describe the "Judgement and Wrath of God for sin"?
May I suggest that your message would simply be one of death, annihilation, to be forgotten forever? And if you had to share the Gospel with an unbeliever, this is also what you would tell him but that there is hope of an eternity of new sin-free life with his Creator & Redeemer? But he might ask, as I certainly would, 'if death is the only punishment for my sin, then don't WE ALL HAVE TO DIE SOME DAY?' 'And then if this resurrection into new eternal life is the blessing because of my turning away from sin unto a Savior, what would it matter to me if I were dead & never experience this new life since there is no knowledge of God or of eternity in the grave?'
In other words, to an unsaved person with no regard to his many (enjoyable) sins in this life, knowing that one day he will die & leave it all behind, why shouldn't he continue in such a state on Earth if only a physical death & no more was at his end? I know that in my previous life of much sin, this type of Gospel wouldn't have moved me at all - life in sin would be more preferable knowing that death would just mean a total cessation. But the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the nature of my sin, the Wrath of an Holy God towards sin, & the awful consequences to reject His Offer of Love & Forgiveness. Should I have refused (though in my situation with the burden of the Spirit, refusal wasn't an option), should I then expect that God would still show me favor with just a punishment of a death which comes to all anyway? to Pg 2
Or, the account of those three in hades: Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham. Was Jesus deceiving His disciples by instilling fear in them about eternity that the rich man was in torment in hell ( Luke 16:23,24)?; & this was only the first judgement - he had to still stand before God in the resurrection readied to be cast into eternal fire. If the full consequences of man's sin & rejection of his only hope from God for his salvation is rejected, can man ever expect any other Mercy after death?
And finally, I think I remember your comments from a while back, relating to how we use the Scriptures & I referred to biblical hermeneutics. I apologize if that wasn't you, but your name seems to stick in my mind. The comment I believe was 'the Bible in its entirety must be our ultimate authority, comparing Scripture with Scripture'. I do acknowledge the Scriptures that you believe support only a physical death at the end, as punishment, but I also gave you others, which you can look at above in this thread. I'm using the same rule that you gave us; how do those Scriptures & those that others here have given you, apply/complement/fall short of what you believe? Because of your earnestness to consider all of Scripture, I would be very interested as to how you bring these seemingly opposing Scriptures to your understanding. Thank you & blessings.
I appreciate your comments. And I agree that there are verses which seem to indicate that God's punishment for sin is "conscious existence experiencing punishment that never ever has an end".
But ALL of the verses relating to the nature of God's Judgment must be considered and not isolated from anything and everything in the Bible that might relate. And this very definitely includes 1) what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God, 2) any Laws God lays down regarding punishment, and 3) the fact that Christ spoke in parables.
I fully understand that correcting an understanding that has existed in the churches for centuries is a serious matter and should not be undertaken lightly or quickly.
I will attempt to address some of the specific comments related to this question over time, although I will not have all of the answers.
For now though, I will just ask us to consider the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birth spending an eternity, consciously experiencing punishment that never ever ends; over against what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God. And I am aware of no teaching in the Bible that would suggest otherwise if the conventional understanding of God's justice and judgment is correct.
May God open our understanding as we continue to search the scriptures.
Thank you David0921, I appreciate the ongoing discussion on this very important doctrine.
Just to first consider "the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birthexperiencing punishment that never ever ends", I confess that the Bible gives no clear teaching on this. There have been opinions given when folk here have enquired about the 'age of accountability' & even though various ages have been suggested, I think the consensus has been that the transmission of the sin nature in no way condemns a babe or adult to judgement for it. It is when sin is committed that makes a person a sinner & therefore accountable. What that age is, is anyone's guess, though my sense is that when the child (not babe) understands error/sin & the reason for discipline, that child whose heart is then smitten each time a sin is devised or performed, becomes a sinner & is accountable. Fortunately, with good Christian parenting, Sunday Schools, Child evangelism ministries, & so forth, at least this young soul can be secured into salvation, when the gravity of sin & the need of Jesus is understood & accepted.
But to your comment that 'all verses relating to God's Judgement must be considered, not isolated' are important; along with God's Mercy, His Laws, & of course Christ's & apostolic teaching given to us. This could be a long road ahead for us, but to make clear points at the start: my understanding of parables (as Jesus shared them) might be very different to yours. There are approximately 30 parables of Jesus given in the Gospels & all of them follow these two distinctives:
a. they were simple stories that His hearers could understand & identify with (e.g. a farmer, a Samaritan, sheep, treasure, coin, wheat/tares, fig tree, etc.) but these stories had a deeper meaning (of God's Kingdom & its values) & implications that weren't grasped by His listeners, including His disciples.
I understand why we might concoct a theory of an "age of accountability". But God puts that idea to rest in very clear and concise language.
Psalms 58:3
The wicked are ESTRANGED from the WOMB: they go ASTRAY as soon as they BE BORN, speaking lies.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE : There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;
Because of Adam's sin, mankind is infected with SIN and is spiritually DEAD from the moment of conception. And it requires God's action to change that condition. The Bible declares that action as becoming BORN AGAIN. That is SALVATION.
There is no "age of accountability". No matter how much we may wish it to be so.
Apart from salvation, a new born baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death, whatever that may be.
Yes David0921, I agree with your Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 refs, that not one of us is righteous before God as we stand (spiritually) dead in our trespasses & sins, but the Psalms 58:3 reference, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies", requires a little more examination.
Here it seems that David is accusing the corrupt judges (vv 1,2) of gross wickedness. Such was their deplorable condition that they displayed their propensity towards evil soon after birth. He says, that "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"; I see that he is taking some license in using hyperbole, for how does a newborn babe speak lies?
These men were not wicked in the womb, even though David acknowledged that he himself "was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" ( Psalm 51:5). Whether in Psalm 58 or 51, the indication is that the sin nature already exists in the embryo & of course that sin nature manifests not long after by the committing of sin. David saw that the wickedness of those men was so great that their propensity to sin was manifest soon (some time?) after birth - not in the womb. If you believe that a "newborn baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death..." (& by extension, it must also be subject to God's Wrath in the womb), when no sin has been committed, that would be an extreme position to hold to, which I believe is baseless. There is no Scripture at all to suggest what you state & of course all those babies that are stillborn, aborted, have their lives taken after birth or simply cannot have the Gospel preached to them for their response, are all subject to God's Wrath & eternal death (& as you understand it: separation from God into annihilation & oblivion).
The 'age of accountability' is simply an attempt to show that our sin nature is judged only when we sin outside of the womb - never inside. Sin is a deliberate act of offending God - it can't be done on the inside.
When God brought destruction on the whole world in the flood of Noah's day or in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which are pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved and the world, I think we can be quite sure that there were new born or very young babies amongst those that experienced these judgements in exactly the same way as adults. There is no distinction made.
And when the Israelites were commanded to destroy everyone in the cities they concurred, there was no special provision made for children. These also were pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved.
These statements are in the first instance the Word of God and not the word of David.
They are are most certainly God's statement about mankind in general (apart from Adam whose initial condition at creation was quite different).
This is an example, I believe, of our differing understanding regarding the nature of the Bible, itself; and how God declares we are to interpret the Bible.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:11-16.
When that light gets to bright we're asked to put it out.
God bless you.
You said we have to read the bible correctly:
Jesus SAID he spoke to the multitude in PARABLES.
He literally placed a physical child in the midst of them them; BUT the TEACHING was not about a physical child, but the fact that HIS RESURRECTION was going to make YOU a new creation, a new birth, being raised with Christ.
And whosoever receiveth one such little child (the Holy Ghost) RECEIVETH ME (Christ in you).
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... CHRIST IN YOU ..... the Holy Ghost IN YOU .... the Spirit of God IN YOU .... the LIFE in YOU ..... the TRUTH in YOU ..... you are the BODY OF CHRIST.....
The glory that thou hast given me, I have given them, that as we are ONE, that they may be ONE in us.
The is ONLY one CHILD; but HE dwells, and is the LIFE and TRUTH in all bodies.
You are the body of CHRIST.
Not many understand what the resurrection accomplished.
All men died with Christ on the cross, all men were made alive by being resurrected with Christ.
At each man's appointed time, Christ will CAUSE them to come to TRUTH.
I WILL put my Spirit in YOU and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statues and keep my judgements, and do them.
For it is God that worketh IN YOU both to will and to do his good pleasure.
God bless you as his truth is revealed IN YOU.
[Comment Removed]
You've spoken well on this topic.
This group you are engaging with have been on this site for atleast 3 years.
There seems to be something very sinister about some of the views we come across in our everyday walk!
Just to encourage you, we all don't hold those views!
Most of us believe in a Heaven and Hell as a place and destination for the lost and the saved.
Christ death on the Cross was a sacrifice!
God offering his Son was a display of love!
"A way of escape for something we all deserve" The wages of sin is death. ( Eternal separation from God )
This group renders the work on the cross and God's eternal/salvation plan foolish if there's no consequences for rejecting Christ atonement.
Be careful not to provide them a platform.
God bless.
I don't see anywhere in scripture as you say it.
Jesus and his disciples were very direct and didn't turn to the left or right.
In Revelation he warns us of this spiritual fornication and Lukewarmness.
You mentioned Love.
Jesus displays his love for the sheep in John 10. He gives us an example of one who don't love the sheep in John 10:12-13.
These warnings and protection from the wolf is an act of love for the sheep.
Is it considered aggressive when you put so much focus on me and try to muffle me from speaking whar is true concerning this matter and taking little indirect shots on other matters?
Yes I expose their agenda when I feel someone new to the site may need a little more info to understand the direction this person is headed.
It puzzles me when you continue to step in every time I speak on this, but this group I'm referring to never denies the accusations.
Where were you when I was under attack a few months ago for not wanting to engage in a ongoing eschatology thread?
You supported it.
Sorry but we will have to disagree on this.
God bless.
Eschatology is the term used fpr study of the end times or the consummation of all things at Christ's return. I think it is good to know what these "ology" terms mean so that one can better understand what others are presenting on this forum.
Let's do some greek.
Eschatology is a compound grk word. From Eschatos which means Last, Final and Logos which means Word but it is also used for Study. So it is (as you said) the study of the end (last) times..
It is amazing how many grk words exist in English.
Haven't heard from you for a while. Hope you are doing great.
Thanks for your wishes. Well I'm facing some challenges lately but I and my samily are OK. I am just worrying about my son because time is going by and he shows no signs of coming back to God. Fortunately he has got some good mental brakes since he was born in a christian family and knows the Truth. I am here almost everyday, I just haven't posted any comment. I wish you all the best for your family. GBU
Understood.
Matthew chapter 23 is one of those great examples of the Lord's Anger vented against the religious leaders - He did not spare them, fiercely looking upon them, saying "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" ( Matthew 23:33). This wasn't a loving friendly talk with them. And then His Love & yearning Heart poured out in verse 37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Therefore, may our words & emotions behind them be Spirit-charged & not the voice of the flesh. And we need to remember that there may be many others who come to these pages to read, consider & digest the messages - are we not responsible before the Lord to expose error or at the very least, to present the Truth so that the reader may discern? Thank you for your efforts & persistence brother, as I note also with some others here. Blessings.
I believe some think I take pleasure out of debating or disagreement probably because of my direct approach.
I certainly don't!
I don't engage in everything as I used to do, nor do I read every post or replies.
Believe it or not I read very little.
In this case I was giving help where I thought help was needed by way of clarity.
Even when not engaging in a debate, What I find strange is we can have one that says we're saved by grace, another say we're saved by keeping the law, and one says we're all saved no matter what.
They all rebukes one another's message.
Which of the three is most likely to be persecuted by the world?
It seems many don't like the narrow gate.
God bless you brother.
I am one who does not think that you are looking for disputes on here. I always appreciate your input. We have agreed on so many things and others things we don't. But even so, we both desire to present our POV in the best way we can.
This is a good forum. Most of the time, conversations are helpful. At times things get passionate and that is fine with me. WE should be passionate about getting to the truth of matters concerning what God has revealed in His Word. I don't think this is being aggressive or contrary. I think that most of us are well meaning and also selective about what topics we engage in. What may be very important to one person may not be so to another. Over time we discover one another's sensitivities, which is a good thing.
So, I just wanted to respond to this post after some thought, because I wanted to assure you that I am one who respects you and your contribution. I also respect your straight forward approach, which is similar to my own. I find it refreshing to converse with someone who speaks their mind freely and directly. That helps to keep us from guessing what others are trying to convey.
We always need to consider what people are actually saying without trying to judge someone's motives or tone. I try to avoid doing this because it isn't fair to the other person to assume things they haven't communicated in words and I am one who takes people for what they say in their posts. And I say what I mean and mean what I say as well.
So, be encouraged today, Steven. We are blessed to be here together. When we all meet up in the resurrection, none of our differences will mater anymore because we will know what will actually take place before that time and after. So, all things will be made clear and we will just bask in the blessing of one another in Christ.
That means a lot to me.
God bless you and all that you do.
Perhaps I will free up some time to join later.
Blessings.
Thought I'd comment on your mention "another say we're saved by keeping the law" and ask if you are referring to discussions on this site or elsewhere?
I don't recall seeing a comment on this site claiming we're saved by keeping the law. If you are referring to this site if you can give some examples of that I'd like to read them.
God bless.
Just referring in general whether on this site or the world.
That's why I said the world persecutes the Gospel message.
I gave an illustration of three different views.
The one that the world hates most is the message of the cross!
The slain Lamb that took away the penalty of sin for the whole world and made an atonement for those who believe.
That's the only message that's deemed foolish to the lost.
1 Corinthians 1:18-21.
That's the partition between those who are truly saved and those who are deceived.
The law is holy as Paul says in Romans 7:12.
But it doesn't regenerate the heart!
The law is the ministration of Death as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3.
When the law came it slew us from Adam and Eve till the end of time!
It declared man guilty!!
It painted the picture of mankind in Adam!
Now that we have the law we also have sin and the wages of sin is death.
The world is softer on you do your best and the Lord will save you by his Love apart from Christ than Christ finish work on the cross apart from the Law.
And it's emphasized in this notion you can loose your Salvation.
If you can't work to get it, you can't work to keep it.
The regeneration by the Holyspirit is a neglected doctrine today.
Our measuring instrument is Love for the Brothern.
That's also misunderstood!
We treat "this Love" as an work rather than a fruit is a big issue.
God bless you.
[Comment Removed]
And I agree, where the clear Truth of the Word is given (such as the core beliefs found in the Word: of the Triune nature of God, the pure Gospel of Grace alone, of holiness of life in the Spirit, of eternal life or eternal torment that awaits all, & knowing both "the goodness and severity of God"), there should be an unflinching grasp of these Truths which are the foundations of our faith. And these should be proclaimed with all confidence & diligence. Every blessing & encouragement to you brother.
I concur and God bless you in all that you do.
Be strong in the Lord.
Blessings.
You have said it well. We are to attempt to correct false teaching and reprove those who promulgate it, even here.
You mention "stagnation" in the churches and congregations of our day. I would say it is far more serious that "stagnation".
If you go into virtually any church to day ant listen to what is being taught, how much different will that be than what you would have found in that same church or denomination 50 or 75 years ago? How much of the World would you see in that church regarding the acceptance of the mores of the World? When was the last time you heard a sermon from the Book of Jeremiah if ever? When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?
What is the Gospel being preached in the churches? Is it a Gospel of Grace alone, where God does 100% of the "work" in saving anyone? Or is it a gospel of Grace plus "works", where Christ has done His part and now its up to us to do our part? Is there any sense at all that not every church member that may appear to be saved may in fact not have become saved and there should be a message of warning to "make our calling and election sure"? Has the gospel in the churches not become more of a social gospel or a political gospel, rather than the True Gospel that we are in terrible trouble with God and desperately need a savior? How many people in the church actually know what they need to be "saved from"?
When we take an honest look at any church today it is not "stagnation" that we see. Is it not where the Bible has lost its Absolute Authority and the authority has become the creeds and confessions developed hundreds of years ago, or worse the ideas of man and a gospel that we like and not the TRUE Gospel of the Bible? Why do you think there are so many different understandings of so many important doctrines in the various churches when that is only ONE TRUTH?
1 Peter 4:17
Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.
I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.
I have come to believe the Bible does NOT teach that God's Judgment for our sin and rebellion against God includes conscious existence in a place called Hell where we will endure pain and suffering that continues for billions and billions of years without any end, i.e for ever and ever.
The Bible does teach I believe that the wages of sin is eternal death. That is eternal destruction, annihilation. This means of course that if we die unsaved there is no eternal inheritance for us living and reigning with Christ forever in the New Heavens and New Earth in eternal bliss that never ends. All that is lost which in itself is a terrible punishment.
The conventional understanding of God's Final Judgment for sin, of suffering and torment that has no end is inconsistent with everything in the Bible that speaks about the Mercy of God. To believe that would mean that an unsaved baby who dies at childbirth would suffer consciously without any end whatsoever. The idea of an "age of accountability" is nowhere found in the Bible and unless saved in the womb we are sinners from birth as the Bible clearly teaches.
Furthermore God is perfectly righteous which means that God has obligated Himself to follow the Laws that He sets forth, including the Law of Deuteronomy 25:1-3 that punishment for the wicked is Limited. It has an end.
So when when a person dies unsaved they will never again have conscious existence.
Now if we are unsaved and still living when Christ returns to Resurrect and Rapture All whom He has saved throughout time, and enter into the Day of Judgment there will be intense suffering and shaming. But that will come to an end when Christ destroys this sin-cursed earth and Satan and all the fallen angels by fire, and there will be no remembrance of anything related to this creation in eternity. God then creates New Heavens and a New Earth where all of those saved will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity, world without end.
Thank you David0921 for your reply. I just wanted to confirm that this was your belief, even though you had mentioned, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" I couldn't imagine what this 'sermon' would have entailed, given what you earlier stated. And even now I wonder, if you were the preacher dealing with this subject of the spirit & soul's eternity, how you would describe the "Judgement and Wrath of God for sin"?
May I suggest that your message would simply be one of death, annihilation, to be forgotten forever? And if you had to share the Gospel with an unbeliever, this is also what you would tell him but that there is hope of an eternity of new sin-free life with his Creator & Redeemer? But he might ask, as I certainly would, 'if death is the only punishment for my sin, then don't WE ALL HAVE TO DIE SOME DAY?' 'And then if this resurrection into new eternal life is the blessing because of my turning away from sin unto a Savior, what would it matter to me if I were dead & never experience this new life since there is no knowledge of God or of eternity in the grave?'
In other words, to an unsaved person with no regard to his many (enjoyable) sins in this life, knowing that one day he will die & leave it all behind, why shouldn't he continue in such a state on Earth if only a physical death & no more was at his end? I know that in my previous life of much sin, this type of Gospel wouldn't have moved me at all - life in sin would be more preferable knowing that death would just mean a total cessation. But the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the nature of my sin, the Wrath of an Holy God towards sin, & the awful consequences to reject His Offer of Love & Forgiveness. Should I have refused (though in my situation with the burden of the Spirit, refusal wasn't an option), should I then expect that God would still show me favor with just a punishment of a death which comes to all anyway? to Pg 2
Or, the account of those three in hades: Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham. Was Jesus deceiving His disciples by instilling fear in them about eternity that the rich man was in torment in hell ( Luke 16:23,24)?; & this was only the first judgement - he had to still stand before God in the resurrection readied to be cast into eternal fire. If the full consequences of man's sin & rejection of his only hope from God for his salvation is rejected, can man ever expect any other Mercy after death?
And finally, I think I remember your comments from a while back, relating to how we use the Scriptures & I referred to biblical hermeneutics. I apologize if that wasn't you, but your name seems to stick in my mind. The comment I believe was 'the Bible in its entirety must be our ultimate authority, comparing Scripture with Scripture'. I do acknowledge the Scriptures that you believe support only a physical death at the end, as punishment, but I also gave you others, which you can look at above in this thread. I'm using the same rule that you gave us; how do those Scriptures & those that others here have given you, apply/complement/fall short of what you believe? Because of your earnestness to consider all of Scripture, I would be very interested as to how you bring these seemingly opposing Scriptures to your understanding. Thank you & blessings.
I appreciate your comments. And I agree that there are verses which seem to indicate that God's punishment for sin is "conscious existence experiencing punishment that never ever has an end".
But ALL of the verses relating to the nature of God's Judgment must be considered and not isolated from anything and everything in the Bible that might relate. And this very definitely includes 1) what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God, 2) any Laws God lays down regarding punishment, and 3) the fact that Christ spoke in parables.
I fully understand that correcting an understanding that has existed in the churches for centuries is a serious matter and should not be undertaken lightly or quickly.
I will attempt to address some of the specific comments related to this question over time, although I will not have all of the answers.
For now though, I will just ask us to consider the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birth spending an eternity, consciously experiencing punishment that never ever ends; over against what the Bible teaches about the Mercy of God. And I am aware of no teaching in the Bible that would suggest otherwise if the conventional understanding of God's justice and judgment is correct.
May God open our understanding as we continue to search the scriptures.
Thank you David0921, I appreciate the ongoing discussion on this very important doctrine.
Just to first consider "the idea of an unsaved baby that dies at birthexperiencing punishment that never ever ends", I confess that the Bible gives no clear teaching on this. There have been opinions given when folk here have enquired about the 'age of accountability' & even though various ages have been suggested, I think the consensus has been that the transmission of the sin nature in no way condemns a babe or adult to judgement for it. It is when sin is committed that makes a person a sinner & therefore accountable. What that age is, is anyone's guess, though my sense is that when the child (not babe) understands error/sin & the reason for discipline, that child whose heart is then smitten each time a sin is devised or performed, becomes a sinner & is accountable. Fortunately, with good Christian parenting, Sunday Schools, Child evangelism ministries, & so forth, at least this young soul can be secured into salvation, when the gravity of sin & the need of Jesus is understood & accepted.
But to your comment that 'all verses relating to God's Judgement must be considered, not isolated' are important; along with God's Mercy, His Laws, & of course Christ's & apostolic teaching given to us. This could be a long road ahead for us, but to make clear points at the start: my understanding of parables (as Jesus shared them) might be very different to yours. There are approximately 30 parables of Jesus given in the Gospels & all of them follow these two distinctives:
a. they were simple stories that His hearers could understand & identify with (e.g. a farmer, a Samaritan, sheep, treasure, coin, wheat/tares, fig tree, etc.) but these stories had a deeper meaning (of God's Kingdom & its values) & implications that weren't grasped by His listeners, including His disciples.
I understand why we might concoct a theory of an "age of accountability". But God puts that idea to rest in very clear and concise language.
Psalms 58:3
The wicked are ESTRANGED from the WOMB: they go ASTRAY as soon as they BE BORN, speaking lies.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE : There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are TOGETHER become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;
Because of Adam's sin, mankind is infected with SIN and is spiritually DEAD from the moment of conception. And it requires God's action to change that condition. The Bible declares that action as becoming BORN AGAIN. That is SALVATION.
There is no "age of accountability". No matter how much we may wish it to be so.
Apart from salvation, a new born baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death, whatever that may be.
Here it seems that David is accusing the corrupt judges (vv 1,2) of gross wickedness. Such was their deplorable condition that they displayed their propensity towards evil soon after birth. He says, that "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"; I see that he is taking some license in using hyperbole, for how does a newborn babe speak lies?
These men were not wicked in the womb, even though David acknowledged that he himself "was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" ( Psalm 51:5). Whether in Psalm 58 or 51, the indication is that the sin nature already exists in the embryo & of course that sin nature manifests not long after by the committing of sin. David saw that the wickedness of those men was so great that their propensity to sin was manifest soon (some time?) after birth - not in the womb. If you believe that a "newborn baby is subject to the wrath of God and eternal death..." (& by extension, it must also be subject to God's Wrath in the womb), when no sin has been committed, that would be an extreme position to hold to, which I believe is baseless. There is no Scripture at all to suggest what you state & of course all those babies that are stillborn, aborted, have their lives taken after birth or simply cannot have the Gospel preached to them for their response, are all subject to God's Wrath & eternal death (& as you understand it: separation from God into annihilation & oblivion).
The 'age of accountability' is simply an attempt to show that our sin nature is judged only when we sin outside of the womb - never inside. Sin is a deliberate act of offending God - it can't be done on the inside.
When God brought destruction on the whole world in the flood of Noah's day or in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which are pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved and the world, I think we can be quite sure that there were new born or very young babies amongst those that experienced these judgements in exactly the same way as adults. There is no distinction made.
And when the Israelites were commanded to destroy everyone in the cities they concurred, there was no special provision made for children. These also were pictures of God's final judgement on the unsaved.
Pardon my misspelling in my comment regarding the cities the Israelites "conquered"; not "concurred".
These statements are in the first instance the Word of God and not the word of David.
They are are most certainly God's statement about mankind in general (apart from Adam whose initial condition at creation was quite different).
This is an example, I believe, of our differing understanding regarding the nature of the Bible, itself; and how God declares we are to interpret the Bible.
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