The baptism of repentance to the lost sheep of Israel.
This was to Identify them with their savior.
In Matthew 3:15 Jesus was also baptized with this baptism to Identify the savior with the people and to fulfill all righteousness, he needed no repentance.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
JOHNS MISSION;
Luke 1:16-17. And many of ( THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL ) shall he turn to the Lord their God.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready A PEOPLE prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:67-74. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Today we are baptized by the Spirit of God.
Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; ( BUT) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Hello Spencer, I agree with you about John's baptism.
In my previous post I wanted to put emphasis on the christian baptism and its meaning using as an introduction John's baptism.
So now mainly about John:
1. John's mission was to reveal the Savior (Jesus), John 1:31.
Also when Mary went to Elisabeth, Elisabeth prophesied and among other she said ( Luke 1:75-76), "And thou, child(John), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord (Jesus) to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins".
Also John 1:29 (the Lamb of the God).
2. When the angel Gabriel came to Zacharias he said, ( Luke 1:16-17) "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
The latter means that another part of John's ministry was to to to teach Hebrews to clean their heart by preaching them to obey God's commandments, what they should do and what not, see Luke 3:7-18. And lead Hebrews to repentance for their sins to be forgiven. That remission of sins was done during the baptism, in public. ( Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;)
3. Isaiah prophesied about John the Baptist, ( Isaiah 30:3-5), "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
So John prepared a smooth path for Jesus' ministry.
Well this is what the verse in Mark 16:16 says, "He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
Note that it says "believe and be baptised", not just "believe". Similarly on Pentecost Peter said to the Jews, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.". So we must repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus to have our sins forgiven and be saved.
In Romans 10:9, says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.". That confession the scripture talks about is done during baptism. It is what that eunuch confessed just before Philipp baptised him, Acts 9:37, "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
In w/baptism a believer is making a public confession of their faith to Jesus. It is a "must" so that the remission of sins is completed.
Just for information the early church wrote many creeds of faith. One of the them was the Nicene Creed written in 325 AD in Nicea (in Asia Minor). Among others it says "We affirm(aknowledge or confess) one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.". Creeds were a sum of the major points of faith believed by the early church. I know many do not want to have anything to do with those creeds but still it shows what the church believed in the early 3rd centuary, not so long after Jesus came on earth.
Tomorow I will come back with Baptism of the Holly Spirit.
Just one question. In the incident that Phillip went to Samaria and preached the gospel to them, when do you think those people were born again?
I briefly went through your reply and will read it again when time permits.
It's late here on the east coast.
However we disagree on what I gathered so far.
I believe the purpose of John baptism was to turn the hearts of the people away from Judaism to Christ, not only by what he said but by the area and the audience he approached and by what his Father said.
Luke 1:67-69. "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
AND hath raised up an horn of salvation for "US" in the house of his servant David;
Luke 1:80
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts TILL THE DAY OF HIS SHEWING UNTO ISRAEL.
John came preaching in the wilderness of Judaea.
The religion in that area was Judaism. If publicans was in the that area they witnessed and was aware of the God of the Israelites. " John said prepare the way for the Lord.
They knew that was the God of the Jews.
And Mark 16:16 it says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED.
"It doesn't say he that is not baptized shall be damned"
If you were standing in the way of my view of something and I said; "Sit down and get out the way"
When you sit down you would have gotten out the way. "You would have accomplished both "
That's the way I take Mark 16:16.
When they believed they were baptized.
It's the Baptism of the Holyspirit mentioned here, Not water. And If it was water baptism it's the believing or not believing that would make the difference here.
As for the creeds. One baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I believe that.
That's the baptism of the Holyspirit. The only baptism that can put you in the body of Christ.
In the incident that Philipp went to Samaria, the scripture says that people believed in Jesus and were baptised in water. Afterwards the apostles came by and lay hands on them and hence they were baptised in the Spirit. My question is, when were those people born again? At which point?
I believe in Samaria they had a head knowledge of the things that Phillip was teaching, and they were baptized by water but in this instance, they weren't converted until Peter came and laid hands on them and they received the Holyspirit.
You can't be saved without the Holyspirit!
It takes the Holyspirit to show you the things of God, not miracles! 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.
These people were bewitched by Simon who used sorcery and they presented him to be some great one.
The unclean spirit can leave a person but it takes the Holyspirit to seal him.
This reminds me of Matthew 12:43-44.
"They received the word of God" even Simon!
When the apostles were able to bring on about the Holyspirit by the laying on of hands then that which they received (The word of God) was sown in them. It took the Holyspirit to seal them, water baptism didn't do it and their head knowledge didn't do it.
Acts 8:14-24. The Apostles were given this power to demonstrate the power of God. Romans 15:18-19. 2 Corinthians 12;12.
1. He preached people to leave their sinful lives and turn back to God. To obey God's commadments. He led them to repentance for their sins and asking for forgiveness. That was done during baptism, in public. He helped them clean their hearts as a first step towards the salvation that was going to be revealed to them through Jesus. Obviously John had to teach people to clean their hearts before introducing the Savior. to them.
2. He revealed the Savior to them. From that time onwards John was diminishing and Jesus kept increasing ( John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease."
Hence John, the last prophet of the Old Testament era functioned as a bridge between Judaism and Christianity, between the OT and the NT, between the Law and the Grace. John's ministry served as a smooth transition from one era to a whole new era. He was an ntercessors (I don't know if this is a proper word). That was his ministry. It is what Isaiah said.
Now lets go to the incident that Jesus gives His apostles His final instructions before leaving. That incident is described in both Matthew and Mark.
Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world"
The same incident is described in Mark as ( Mark 15-18) , "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..."
So I think it becomes obvious that Jesus talks about water baptism, not Spirit baptism.
About the creeds. I live in a country where everybody knows the Nicene creed, we are tought it in school as well. And I can assure you that the baptism it talks about is the water baptism. I think you can find a lot of information about it on the net.
Good job explaining not just the importance of water baptism that is done by one who believes the gospel and professes Christ as
Savior, but also that it is the end act of conversion and for the remission of sins, as Scripture does say. I don't think that we truly understand this connection in baptism because it is a spiritual act by God to us.
And in regard to creeds, you are correct in that they were a concise proclamation of the essential beliefs every believer should confess. Even before these "official" creeds many of us know so well, in the apostles' time and continuing after that, each congregation had what was called "a rule of faith' which was confession of the essential Christian beliefs expected tho be held by members of the fellowship. This was pretty much across the board for most churches at this time.
This is all that a creed is, an outward, communal confession of the beliefs of the apostolic faith past down to the churches. It is something that believers confessed as individuals to what they believed, but it was usually done in a corporate setting. The rule of faith would be recited in their worship times as a statement of faith that showed any visitors or anyone new to the fellowship what they proclaimed about the most important and necessary ideals of the faith they believed.
What effect would occur in non-believers or new believers and children attending a fellowship if such a 'rule of faith' or creed was professed at every worship service! It is one part of services that I love because I can know that I am with people who believe that same things as I do as well as the Christian church at large.
It is ok for someone to create their own profession of faith for themselves. However, this could lead to all kinds of errors in doctrine if the individual profession does not align with the word as professed in the creeds of Christ's church.
There is something else that we must point out. When John tried to stop Jesus since he knew who Jesus was, Jesus answered him, Matthew 3:15, "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him"
What did Jesus mean when He said that they should both fulfill the righteouness of God. My belief is different from Jesse's.
God is righteous, which means that He must condemn the sinner. But instead of condemning sinners, He condemned Jesus instead of all of us. So God's righteousness was fulfilled on Jesus. Jesus died on the cross. Jesus should never die. Death is the wage of sin and Jesus had never sinned. But He died instead all of us who believe in Him. All that of course is something all christians know, I am not saying anything new. So for people to be saved, Jesus had to be born as a man and live his life as an ordinary man, letting aside His divine powers. So He had to go all through all that that ordinary people go through. And since at that time all people had to be baptised by John since that was God's commandment, Jesus also had to be baptised although He personally didn't have any sin. So John had to let Him be baptised so that God's righteousness was fulfilled on Jesus.
Now lets go back to that "remission of sins". John baptism wasn't just a symbolic ceremony. As I said it was a public repentance and confession of sins for the remission of sins done by people. My question is. Why had it to be done publically. Wasn't it enough that a Hebrew kneeled down at his bed and confessed their sins to God and ask for forgiveness? Wasn't it enough to be done in private? Had it to be done publically? Well, yes it seems to that it had to be done in public. In private was not enough.
So let's go now to the christian baptism. Question. Isn't it enough that we repent and ask for forgiveness (through Jesus) in private to be saved? Has it to be done in public?
Firstly lets gather all the information that we are given in the Word of God about John's Baptism.
1. In Luke 7:29-30 Jesus said to Pharisees, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.".
So the Will of God was ALL people (Hebrews) to be baptised by John.
2. John 1:31, "And I (John the Baptist) knew him (Jesus) not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
So John's ministry was to reveal Jesus (the Savior) to people. That was done during Jesus' baptism. See John 1:32-34.
3. Luke 3:3, "And he (John) came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"
So the purpose of that baptism was the remission of sins through the repentance done in public during John's baptism.
One detail that I have read in other books but is not mentioned in the Bible is how that baptism was done. The man who was to be baptised went in the water, confessed all his sins publically and as soon as he finished confessing he submerged himself in the water and then got up. Jesus has no sin to confess that is why he went straight up, i.e. Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: ..."
I don't know if I have omitted something important but all the above sums up to:
God sent John to baptise all people. It was the Will of God that all people are to be baptized. So my belief is that that baptism was not done before, it wasn't like all the other baptisms done by Hebrews before. Through that baptism John revealed the Savior (Jesus) to people. During that baptism people repented for their sins, confessed those publically and were forgiven. About that "remission of sins" I will come back later on.
Amen! John's ministry was to baptize with water, and as you said, a baptism of repentance for the Jews to turn from Judaism, and identify themselves with Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus' ministry was (and still is) to baptize people with His Spirit.
Matthew 3:15 answers the question as to why would John have to do this, and why would Jesus let John baptize Him?
Notice it says becomes "us" to fulfill all righteousness.
It is the fulfillment of Exodus 29:4, to fulfill all righteousness! There are three things that is very interesting about Jesus' coming.
Remember at 30 years of age, that is the age of the priesthood. According to Numbers 4:30, it was 30 years of age.
The priest had to go through a MIKVEH, a baptism. They had to be baptized from head to toe. The washing, or the MIKVEH of the priesthood is in Exodus 29:4.
But what's interesting is that Moses was supposed to do the baptizing! That is interesting because here is John the baptizer standing there and Jesus says this is for "us" to fulfill all righteousness.
And so John is stepping in the place of Moses and baptizing Jesus for the priesthood. The anointing of the priesthood is in Exodus 29:7. They were anointed with oil.
Jesus was 30 years of age, and in order for Him to officially (according to the law) enter into His priesthood according to the Jews, He would have to be baptized.
It was all according to Jewish law, and they "fulfilled all righteousness." A Jew could not say from that point forward that Jesus can't tell them the truth about the kingdom of heaven because He has never gone through the official ceremony for a priest, because Jesus did.
This was why Jesus went through the Mikveh. He needed to repent, and it wasn't to set an example for us. It was to fulfill all righteousness. According to Jewish law, His ministry would have been illegitimate if He did not go through the ceremony. Plus He had to be 30 years of age to be legal.
You are welcome. I was about to delete my post due to a rather embarrassing error I made, but I'll just correct myself and let you know that I did not mean to say that Jesus needed to repent.
So my correction should read as follows:
"This was why Jesus went through the Mikveh. He (did not) need to repent, and it wasn't to set an example for us. It was to fulfill all righteousness.
Actually God didn't destroy the temple to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus.
He gave them the Prophets, Moses and signs pointing them to his coming throughout the OT.
That was Johns mission to prepare the way for him that was Prophesied to come.
In Daniel 9:25 Daniel gave them a mathematical prophecy of his coming on the day he was to present himself as king.
He did just that fulfilling Daniels prophecy and Zechariah 9:9.
Jesus held them accountable in Luke 19:41-44 for not acknowledging this.
"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNOWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.
However all this was in God's plan from the beginning.
It wasn't a plan A and B.
The bible clearly tells us the veil will be moved off of Israel heart and they will turn to the Lord.
I agree, the church never has been "Plan B". God preordained that Jesus would be the Head of believers before creation just as His coming and salvation work was preordained before creation.
As to the salvation of the Jews, Jews are still turning to Jesus since He came. However, most do not, because, as you said, their eyes are blinded, and their ears will not hear the wonderful news of their Messiah, Jesus.
There will, indeed be a time when they will see and hear, and their hearts will be transformed so that they will come to Jesus as a nation. Israelites from all over the world will hear the voice of Jesus and turn to Him. How wonderful that will be.
Believers must continue to reach out to Jews they know with the gospel. Since, how can they hear without someone to tell them. We have the joyful task of sharing the truth about Jesus with them. Their view of Him is warped by sinful teachings.
When this turning happens as a nation is not yet known. But it could be near or far off. God knows and will bring it about. Then the believing Israelites will be joined with the Gentile believers to the body of Christ forever as one people of God.
These who would still not turn to Jesus after the destruction of 70 A.D. not only clung to these shreds of Judaism even harder,
but they also got more involved with Kabbalah occultic practices carried over from the Babylonian captivity where the rabbinical
and synagogue system was created since they did not have a temple in Babylonia for the priests to perform the duties of the
Mosaic covenant. Even when they had the temple for 490 years, they still continued the rabbinical and synagogue system which
was never instituted by God. The destruction of 70 A.D. was intended to put and end to both the Mosaic system and the
Babylonian system. But Jews restarted the things they devised in Babylonia, although the Mosaic system could not be done due
to no temple remaining for the people to meet their obligations before God. It seems that God did everything to separate Jews
from these religious things that were to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus. But here the Judaic system
persists to this day without repentance. They really got it all wrong. My hope and prayer is for evangelists to be sent to Jews
once again so that many may hear the gospel that is despised by Judaism and may be given grace to believe it.
We, too, should learn from this and seek to have a pure approach to God in worship and faith, not adding to what we have
received in Christ-no merit, no penance, no works to appease Him or "earn from Him" any good thing, no rituals, nothing but
a life of faith and obedience, worship and gratitude. We grow by reading and following His word, practicing holy living, service to others, prayerfulness, sharing spiritual things with
others, and taking our walk by the Spirit seriously. But it is God's Spirit who perfects anything in us and matures us and
completes all that is necessary for us to become more Christ-like. The Holy Spirit imparts truth to us by causing the Scriptures
I would like to include here the remainder of Zecharias' prophetic utterance in Luke 1. From just your selection there is no mention of sin and holiness. But the remainder of the utterance tells of these.
Luke 1:75-79
"In holiness and righteousness before Him, all of our life. And thou child (john) shalt be called the prophet of the Highest; for
thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways; to give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of
their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on High hath visited us, to give light to them who
sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet in the way of peace."
The Israelites should have not just been looking for someone to free them from their enemies (at that time Rome) nor from
those who hated them, but more importantly, to free them from their sin and condemnation before God. All of these things were
prophesied in the OT and Zecharias here states as much. From the behavior of the Jewish leaders, the people were looking for
the first two things in the Messiah (deliverance from enemies and those who hated them) but most likely did not see the
Messiah as one who saved them from their sins because they had the Mosaic covenant and sacrifices, offerings, and priestly
rites to take care of their sin, if they thought they had any. This is part of the reason for the desolation of Jerusalem and and
Temple (which was burned to the ground and no "stone was left upon another." This being to stop the Jews from relying on such
sacrifices and rituals before God and to turn to Jesus for a once and for all sacrifice for their sins and reconcile them to God.
It took this sort of decimation to rid the nation of Judaism so that the Jews could turn to Jesus. But even though many did turn
to Him, many more did not and continued to hold onto whatever shreds of Judaism they could still perform dutifully.
The baptism of repentance to the lost sheep of Israel.
This was to Identify them with their savior.
In Matthew 3:15 Jesus was also baptized with this baptism to Identify the savior with the people and to fulfill all righteousness, he needed no repentance.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
JOHNS MISSION;
Luke 1:16-17. And many of ( THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL ) shall he turn to the Lord their God.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready A PEOPLE prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:67-74. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Today we are baptized by the Spirit of God.
Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; ( BUT) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Matthew 3:11.
1 Corinthians 12:13.
God bless.
Hello Spencer, I agree with you about John's baptism.
In my previous post I wanted to put emphasis on the christian baptism and its meaning using as an introduction John's baptism.
So now mainly about John:
1. John's mission was to reveal the Savior (Jesus), John 1:31.
Also when Mary went to Elisabeth, Elisabeth prophesied and among other she said ( Luke 1:75-76), "And thou, child(John), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord (Jesus) to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins".
Also John 1:29 (the Lamb of the God).
2. When the angel Gabriel came to Zacharias he said, ( Luke 1:16-17) "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"
The latter means that another part of John's ministry was to to to teach Hebrews to clean their heart by preaching them to obey God's commandments, what they should do and what not, see Luke 3:7-18. And lead Hebrews to repentance for their sins to be forgiven. That remission of sins was done during the baptism, in public. ( Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;)
3. Isaiah prophesied about John the Baptist, ( Isaiah 30:3-5), "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
So John prepared a smooth path for Jesus' ministry.
Spencer.
Well this is what the verse in Mark 16:16 says, "He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
Note that it says "believe and be baptised", not just "believe". Similarly on Pentecost Peter said to the Jews, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.". So we must repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus to have our sins forgiven and be saved.
In Romans 10:9, says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.". That confession the scripture talks about is done during baptism. It is what that eunuch confessed just before Philipp baptised him, Acts 9:37, "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
In w/baptism a believer is making a public confession of their faith to Jesus. It is a "must" so that the remission of sins is completed.
Just for information the early church wrote many creeds of faith. One of the them was the Nicene Creed written in 325 AD in Nicea (in Asia Minor). Among others it says "We affirm(aknowledge or confess) one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.". Creeds were a sum of the major points of faith believed by the early church. I know many do not want to have anything to do with those creeds but still it shows what the church believed in the early 3rd centuary, not so long after Jesus came on earth.
Tomorow I will come back with Baptism of the Holly Spirit.
Just one question. In the incident that Phillip went to Samaria and preached the gospel to them, when do you think those people were born again?
GBU
Thanks for your response.
I briefly went through your reply and will read it again when time permits.
It's late here on the east coast.
However we disagree on what I gathered so far.
I believe the purpose of John baptism was to turn the hearts of the people away from Judaism to Christ, not only by what he said but by the area and the audience he approached and by what his Father said.
Luke 1:67-69. "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
AND hath raised up an horn of salvation for "US" in the house of his servant David;
Luke 1:80
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts TILL THE DAY OF HIS SHEWING UNTO ISRAEL.
John came preaching in the wilderness of Judaea.
The religion in that area was Judaism. If publicans was in the that area they witnessed and was aware of the God of the Israelites. " John said prepare the way for the Lord.
They knew that was the God of the Jews.
And Mark 16:16 it says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED.
"It doesn't say he that is not baptized shall be damned"
If you were standing in the way of my view of something and I said; "Sit down and get out the way"
When you sit down you would have gotten out the way. "You would have accomplished both "
That's the way I take Mark 16:16.
When they believed they were baptized.
It's the Baptism of the Holyspirit mentioned here, Not water. And If it was water baptism it's the believing or not believing that would make the difference here.
As for the creeds. One baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I believe that.
That's the baptism of the Holyspirit. The only baptism that can put you in the body of Christ.
Ephesians 4:5-6.
Good night.
Spencer.
You have not answered my question yet.
In the incident that Philipp went to Samaria, the scripture says that people believed in Jesus and were baptised in water. Afterwards the apostles came by and lay hands on them and hence they were baptised in the Spirit. My question is, when were those people born again? At which point?
GBU
Part 2.
Acts 8:5-25.
I believe in Samaria they had a head knowledge of the things that Phillip was teaching, and they were baptized by water but in this instance, they weren't converted until Peter came and laid hands on them and they received the Holyspirit.
You can't be saved without the Holyspirit!
It takes the Holyspirit to show you the things of God, not miracles! 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.
These people were bewitched by Simon who used sorcery and they presented him to be some great one.
The unclean spirit can leave a person but it takes the Holyspirit to seal him.
This reminds me of Matthew 12:43-44.
"They received the word of God" even Simon!
When the apostles were able to bring on about the Holyspirit by the laying on of hands then that which they received (The word of God) was sown in them. It took the Holyspirit to seal them, water baptism didn't do it and their head knowledge didn't do it.
Acts 8:14-24. The Apostles were given this power to demonstrate the power of God. Romans 15:18-19. 2 Corinthians 12;12.
God bless.
Spencer
So lets sum up John's ministry.
1. He preached people to leave their sinful lives and turn back to God. To obey God's commadments. He led them to repentance for their sins and asking for forgiveness. That was done during baptism, in public. He helped them clean their hearts as a first step towards the salvation that was going to be revealed to them through Jesus. Obviously John had to teach people to clean their hearts before introducing the Savior. to them.
2. He revealed the Savior to them. From that time onwards John was diminishing and Jesus kept increasing ( John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease."
Hence John, the last prophet of the Old Testament era functioned as a bridge between Judaism and Christianity, between the OT and the NT, between the Law and the Grace. John's ministry served as a smooth transition from one era to a whole new era. He was an ntercessors (I don't know if this is a proper word). That was his ministry. It is what Isaiah said.
Now lets go to the incident that Jesus gives His apostles His final instructions before leaving. That incident is described in both Matthew and Mark.
Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world"
The same incident is described in Mark as ( Mark 15-18) , "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..."
So I think it becomes obvious that Jesus talks about water baptism, not Spirit baptism.
About the creeds. I live in a country where everybody knows the Nicene creed, we are tought it in school as well. And I can assure you that the baptism it talks about is the water baptism. I think you can find a lot of information about it on the net.
Good job explaining not just the importance of water baptism that is done by one who believes the gospel and professes Christ as
Savior, but also that it is the end act of conversion and for the remission of sins, as Scripture does say. I don't think that we truly understand this connection in baptism because it is a spiritual act by God to us.
And in regard to creeds, you are correct in that they were a concise proclamation of the essential beliefs every believer should confess. Even before these "official" creeds many of us know so well, in the apostles' time and continuing after that, each congregation had what was called "a rule of faith' which was confession of the essential Christian beliefs expected tho be held by members of the fellowship. This was pretty much across the board for most churches at this time.
This is all that a creed is, an outward, communal confession of the beliefs of the apostolic faith past down to the churches. It is something that believers confessed as individuals to what they believed, but it was usually done in a corporate setting. The rule of faith would be recited in their worship times as a statement of faith that showed any visitors or anyone new to the fellowship what they proclaimed about the most important and necessary ideals of the faith they believed.
What effect would occur in non-believers or new believers and children attending a fellowship if such a 'rule of faith' or creed was professed at every worship service! It is one part of services that I love because I can know that I am with people who believe that same things as I do as well as the Christian church at large.
It is ok for someone to create their own profession of faith for themselves. However, this could lead to all kinds of errors in doctrine if the individual profession does not align with the word as professed in the creeds of Christ's church.
Spencer
There is something else that we must point out. When John tried to stop Jesus since he knew who Jesus was, Jesus answered him, Matthew 3:15, "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him"
What did Jesus mean when He said that they should both fulfill the righteouness of God. My belief is different from Jesse's.
God is righteous, which means that He must condemn the sinner. But instead of condemning sinners, He condemned Jesus instead of all of us. So God's righteousness was fulfilled on Jesus. Jesus died on the cross. Jesus should never die. Death is the wage of sin and Jesus had never sinned. But He died instead all of us who believe in Him. All that of course is something all christians know, I am not saying anything new. So for people to be saved, Jesus had to be born as a man and live his life as an ordinary man, letting aside His divine powers. So He had to go all through all that that ordinary people go through. And since at that time all people had to be baptised by John since that was God's commandment, Jesus also had to be baptised although He personally didn't have any sin. So John had to let Him be baptised so that God's righteousness was fulfilled on Jesus.
Now lets go back to that "remission of sins". John baptism wasn't just a symbolic ceremony. As I said it was a public repentance and confession of sins for the remission of sins done by people. My question is. Why had it to be done publically. Wasn't it enough that a Hebrew kneeled down at his bed and confessed their sins to God and ask for forgiveness? Wasn't it enough to be done in private? Had it to be done publically? Well, yes it seems to that it had to be done in public. In private was not enough.
So let's go now to the christian baptism. Question. Isn't it enough that we repent and ask for forgiveness (through Jesus) in private to be saved? Has it to be done in public?
Hello Spencer
My thoughts on John's Baptism.
Firstly lets gather all the information that we are given in the Word of God about John's Baptism.
1. In Luke 7:29-30 Jesus said to Pharisees, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.".
So the Will of God was ALL people (Hebrews) to be baptised by John.
2. John 1:31, "And I (John the Baptist) knew him (Jesus) not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
So John's ministry was to reveal Jesus (the Savior) to people. That was done during Jesus' baptism. See John 1:32-34.
3. Luke 3:3, "And he (John) came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"
So the purpose of that baptism was the remission of sins through the repentance done in public during John's baptism.
One detail that I have read in other books but is not mentioned in the Bible is how that baptism was done. The man who was to be baptised went in the water, confessed all his sins publically and as soon as he finished confessing he submerged himself in the water and then got up. Jesus has no sin to confess that is why he went straight up, i.e. Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: ..."
I don't know if I have omitted something important but all the above sums up to:
God sent John to baptise all people. It was the Will of God that all people are to be baptized. So my belief is that that baptism was not done before, it wasn't like all the other baptisms done by Hebrews before. Through that baptism John revealed the Savior (Jesus) to people. During that baptism people repented for their sins, confessed those publically and were forgiven. About that "remission of sins" I will come back later on.
1 Corintihans 13 chapter. Stay close to Jesus in His word, i love u in Christ.
God bless you.
I love you too.
Amen! John's ministry was to baptize with water, and as you said, a baptism of repentance for the Jews to turn from Judaism, and identify themselves with Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus' ministry was (and still is) to baptize people with His Spirit.
Matthew 3:15 answers the question as to why would John have to do this, and why would Jesus let John baptize Him?
Notice it says becomes "us" to fulfill all righteousness.
It is the fulfillment of Exodus 29:4, to fulfill all righteousness! There are three things that is very interesting about Jesus' coming.
Remember at 30 years of age, that is the age of the priesthood. According to Numbers 4:30, it was 30 years of age.
The priest had to go through a MIKVEH, a baptism. They had to be baptized from head to toe. The washing, or the MIKVEH of the priesthood is in Exodus 29:4.
But what's interesting is that Moses was supposed to do the baptizing! That is interesting because here is John the baptizer standing there and Jesus says this is for "us" to fulfill all righteousness.
And so John is stepping in the place of Moses and baptizing Jesus for the priesthood. The anointing of the priesthood is in Exodus 29:7. They were anointed with oil.
Jesus was 30 years of age, and in order for Him to officially (according to the law) enter into His priesthood according to the Jews, He would have to be baptized.
It was all according to Jewish law, and they "fulfilled all righteousness." A Jew could not say from that point forward that Jesus can't tell them the truth about the kingdom of heaven because He has never gone through the official ceremony for a priest, because Jesus did.
This was why Jesus went through the Mikveh. He needed to repent, and it wasn't to set an example for us. It was to fulfill all righteousness. According to Jewish law, His ministry would have been illegitimate if He did not go through the ceremony. Plus He had to be 30 years of age to be legal.
Blessing!
I believe you mentioned that before!
I knew the priest had to be 30 years old but I didn't tie that together with his baptism.
Thanks and God bless.
You are welcome. I was about to delete my post due to a rather embarrassing error I made, but I'll just correct myself and let you know that I did not mean to say that Jesus needed to repent.
So my correction should read as follows:
"This was why Jesus went through the Mikveh. He (did not) need to repent, and it wasn't to set an example for us. It was to fulfill all righteousness.
God bless!
I saw that, I knew what you meant.
God bless.
Thanks for your reply.
Actually God didn't destroy the temple to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus.
He gave them the Prophets, Moses and signs pointing them to his coming throughout the OT.
That was Johns mission to prepare the way for him that was Prophesied to come.
In Daniel 9:25 Daniel gave them a mathematical prophecy of his coming on the day he was to present himself as king.
He did just that fulfilling Daniels prophecy and Zechariah 9:9.
Jesus held them accountable in Luke 19:41-44 for not acknowledging this.
"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNOWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.
However all this was in God's plan from the beginning.
It wasn't a plan A and B.
The bible clearly tells us the veil will be moved off of Israel heart and they will turn to the Lord.
Everything is going according to Gos design.
God bless.
I agree, the church never has been "Plan B". God preordained that Jesus would be the Head of believers before creation just as His coming and salvation work was preordained before creation.
As to the salvation of the Jews, Jews are still turning to Jesus since He came. However, most do not, because, as you said, their eyes are blinded, and their ears will not hear the wonderful news of their Messiah, Jesus.
There will, indeed be a time when they will see and hear, and their hearts will be transformed so that they will come to Jesus as a nation. Israelites from all over the world will hear the voice of Jesus and turn to Him. How wonderful that will be.
Believers must continue to reach out to Jews they know with the gospel. Since, how can they hear without someone to tell them. We have the joyful task of sharing the truth about Jesus with them. Their view of Him is warped by sinful teachings.
When this turning happens as a nation is not yet known. But it could be near or far off. God knows and will bring it about. Then the believing Israelites will be joined with the Gentile believers to the body of Christ forever as one people of God.
God bless you.
Pt. 2
These who would still not turn to Jesus after the destruction of 70 A.D. not only clung to these shreds of Judaism even harder,
but they also got more involved with Kabbalah occultic practices carried over from the Babylonian captivity where the rabbinical
and synagogue system was created since they did not have a temple in Babylonia for the priests to perform the duties of the
Mosaic covenant. Even when they had the temple for 490 years, they still continued the rabbinical and synagogue system which
was never instituted by God. The destruction of 70 A.D. was intended to put and end to both the Mosaic system and the
Babylonian system. But Jews restarted the things they devised in Babylonia, although the Mosaic system could not be done due
to no temple remaining for the people to meet their obligations before God. It seems that God did everything to separate Jews
from these religious things that were to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus. But here the Judaic system
persists to this day without repentance. They really got it all wrong. My hope and prayer is for evangelists to be sent to Jews
once again so that many may hear the gospel that is despised by Judaism and may be given grace to believe it.
We, too, should learn from this and seek to have a pure approach to God in worship and faith, not adding to what we have
received in Christ-no merit, no penance, no works to appease Him or "earn from Him" any good thing, no rituals, nothing but
a life of faith and obedience, worship and gratitude. We grow by reading and following His word, practicing holy living, service to others, prayerfulness, sharing spiritual things with
others, and taking our walk by the Spirit seriously. But it is God's Spirit who perfects anything in us and matures us and
completes all that is necessary for us to become more Christ-like. The Holy Spirit imparts truth to us by causing the Scriptures
to be understood and applied.
Pt. 1
I would like to include here the remainder of Zecharias' prophetic utterance in Luke 1. From just your selection there is no mention of sin and holiness. But the remainder of the utterance tells of these.
Luke 1:75-79
"In holiness and righteousness before Him, all of our life. And thou child (john) shalt be called the prophet of the Highest; for
thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways; to give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of
their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on High hath visited us, to give light to them who
sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet in the way of peace."
The Israelites should have not just been looking for someone to free them from their enemies (at that time Rome) nor from
those who hated them, but more importantly, to free them from their sin and condemnation before God. All of these things were
prophesied in the OT and Zecharias here states as much. From the behavior of the Jewish leaders, the people were looking for
the first two things in the Messiah (deliverance from enemies and those who hated them) but most likely did not see the
Messiah as one who saved them from their sins because they had the Mosaic covenant and sacrifices, offerings, and priestly
rites to take care of their sin, if they thought they had any. This is part of the reason for the desolation of Jerusalem and and
Temple (which was burned to the ground and no "stone was left upon another." This being to stop the Jews from relying on such
sacrifices and rituals before God and to turn to Jesus for a once and for all sacrifice for their sins and reconcile them to God.
It took this sort of decimation to rid the nation of Judaism so that the Jews could turn to Jesus. But even though many did turn
to Him, many more did not and continued to hold onto whatever shreds of Judaism they could still perform dutifully.
Well, that is about all for now. We must be careful not to emulate the Jews, but to exemplify Christ to them every opportunity God
presents for us.
LORD GOD help us to walk in this way. AMEN.
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