I'm in the book of Mark. My question is Jesus was the last supper an announced that one would betray him.( Judas ) if God is all knowing what 3 years before did Jesus pick him as a deciple. I understand that that God has knowledge of all. WAS THIS PREORDAINED. OR SOMETHING MORE?
Many wonder why did God select Judas as an apostle while He knew he would betray Him?
The answer is, for the same reason that He selected Saul as the first king of Israel while He knew he would fail, for the same reason he selected Balaam as a prophet while He knew he would betray Israel, for the same reason that He selected Jehasi as a successor of Elisha while He knew he would later go after money, for the same reason He selected the sons of Aaron as high priests while He knew they would eventually dissobey His commandments by placing strange fire so they got punished. For the same reason He created mankind although He knew we would fall into sin and He would be compelled to sacrifice Himself to save us. For the same reason He selects today ministers in various churches and gives them talents to work for Him but some bury them and end up in the outer darkness( Matthew 25:14-3). For the same reason He saves people that would later leave him and end up in hell.
Because He is a fair and good God who gives opportunities to everybody; to people to serve him when he knows that they want to do that and they are in a good spiritual condition and have the ability to carry the load of the Lord. It is like a father who although knows that his son is a lazy boy who will probably never succeed anything in his life, still loves him and does everything he can to help him. Gives him all sort of opportunities and sacrifices a lot for him. Because he loves him and wants to see him happy in his life. But the result depends on the son, not on the father.
Judas resembles much to Saul the King. He was a good choice in the beggining. He was born again llike Saul was given the Spirit of God and prophesied. But later ended up loving money more than Jesus like Saul loved honor and fame more than the God who made him a King. At the end satan entered him like Saul got possesed by an evil spirit, they both ended up in hell. Very sad.
Hello Jesse. You didn't ask me the question but I saw this in Scripture and thought I would share it with you if you don't mind. It may be helpful in someone's understanding on this topic. In ( Acts. 1:16-20) These verses are clearly speaking of Judas Iscariot and in ( Acts. 1:20) We are told "For it is written in the book of Psalms. ((Let his habitation be desolate))". Where is this written? It's written in ( Psalms 69:25-28) Now we look at ( Ps. 69:25) It says "Let their habitation be desolate" ( Ps. 69:28) Says "Let them be (blotted) out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. The word (blotted) is #4229; it means to erase, abolish, blot out, destroy, utterly, wipe, (away, out). I think this means his name was written in the book of the living at one point. The reason these verses say the words (their) and (them) could be because its speaking not only of Judas Iscariot but also of the other (son of perdition) Judas was the first son of perdition in ( Jn. 17:12) The second (son of perdition) is in ( 2 Thess 2:3-4) This son of perdition is the antichrist who will be revealed in the Lastdays. The first (son of perdition) Judas was possessed by Satan in ( Luke 22:3) and ( Jn 13:27) Then we have (Eccle. 1:9) Which says "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be" The first son of perdition was possessed by Satan so the second (son of perdition) in ( 2 Thess 2:3-4) will also be possessed by Satan, there is no new thing under the sun. Any thoughts on this Jesse? I'm apologize if I am intruding. God Bless.
No need for apology. It is an open forum, and even though I specifically directed the question to a single individual and was specifically looking for that individual's response, you, along with all others are free to be the first to respond. First, let me say thank you for sharing this. Yes, as you said, "it may be helpful in someone's understanding on this topic."
Something else that might be helpful in other's understanding of this topic is that the "book of the living" and the "Lamb's book of life" are not the same. If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "book of the living" is only found one time in the Old Testament, and it refers to everyone who has been physically born into this world. The book of the living has listed in it everybody that has received human life. This is something the Jews would have understood. It was custom in those days to record the names of everyone who was physically born into this world into a ledger (Book). The Jews would have understood the phrase "book of the living" to be such. Just like today, everyone physically born into this world has their names recorded in a register, or book of live birth.
The Lamb's book of life is not the same as the book of the living. The Lamb's book of life contains the names of everyone who belongs to Christ, those who have received Him and have eternal life. When a person receives Jesus Christ, their name is recorded into the Lamb's book of life. And according to scripture, no one who has been saved will ever be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Nothing in scripture tells us that Judas' name was ever recorded in the Lamb's book of life.
Can one who the father chooses and draws to Jesus turn away from Him in unbelief after having believed and received the Spirit and grace? How does this square with the concept of election and the irrevocable calling of the gift of God?
I agree that there are many places in Scripture that speak to the real possibility of a true believer apostasying. And also many Scripture verses that speak to the assurance of salvation to those called by election. .
So, what is the truth on the matter of "Once saved always saved"? This is a very confusing paradox taught in Scripture.
For, me, I take both aspects into account. I would never tell someone who once believed and fell away that they were never really saved in the first place or they would not have fell away. This would leave them even more unsure of the truth of the gospel they once believed. But for one who is a believer and has doubts, I would show them Scripture that gives assurance of salvation.
My sons, are a good example of this. They were exposed to the gospel over and over throughout their childhood, and they believed in Jesus up through high school. But through outside exposures of worldly ideas, they fell away. I would not tell them that they were not really saved as children and youths, nor would I say they are still saved in their present state of rejection. I would tell them that when they placed their faith in the gospel and believed in Jesus, they were indeed saved, but now in their unbelief, they need to repent and return to Jesus to once again be saved. Jesus will always receive any who call on Him for salvation through faith. His grace is available to all who seek Him, regardless if it is their first turning to Him or a turning back to Him after turning away from Him. But I would say that no one in rebellion to God in unbelief is in a safe and saved position before God and must turn back to Him for forgiveness and faith.
These real scenarios on this topic present a perplexity.
One case was a guy who was a drug addict. He believed, God freed him completely from his passion, like he had never taken drugs before, He saved his wife, his little girl, his sister... All 4 of them stayed in the faith for years. Good people. The guy was working as a cleaner but he was struggling to earn his living. After years he decided to go back to his previous job. Before believing he and his family were going to beaches in the summertime and were selling cookies, ice creams, this sort of things. They used to earn a lot of money. So he decided to go back. The church warned him that such places are not good for christians, walking among seminaked women. Also there was the risk that his old pals would approach him again. He wouldn't listen. Later he was found by his wife dead with a needle in his arm. I just hope he had the chance to repent before his end. Who knows.
Second case. There was a couple that believed. Not married together. The woman was married before and was separated. The man had some serious alcohol issues, his liver was damaged. They separated. The guy got married to a sister in faith and had 2 nice girls. The woman prayed for her husband to be joined with her (my church does not remary separated people). but after many years they got back together (that is why we should always guard our deceitful heart). The guy left his family and they both left the church and lived together. Eventually he died due to liver destruction. The woman is still out there lost. Did he go to heaven? I don't want to give an answer.
God wants to save us, but the final decisions are made by us. We are not robots, we are not programmed, we have free will which He will never violate. God doesn't save only people who knows they will never leave Him. That would be unfair for the rest. The Bible says that He wants ALL people to be saved, but not everybody is saved.
About Judas, it is true that we don't know much about him apart that he eventually became a thief and kept stealing money from the bag ( John 12:6), so it seems he had some issues with money. I have also heard those theories about Judas but I don't know where they rely on, in which writtings.
I am sorry about your sons. My son also left the faith when he was 15, now he is 20, although he was born in the church. But we must trust God that He will eventually find a way to draw them back. This is a promise to believers, remember what Paul and Silas said to the guard in Philippi, Acts 17:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, AND THY HOUSE.". There isn't much we can do on our own apart from praying and talking to them, if and when they wish to hear. I know very many cases of parents who didn't quit and insisted in praying about their kids and finally saw marvelous results. So be encouraged.
Now about the belief of OSAS I believe they found a method to overcome all those cases we see in the Bible, about believers who mess their salvation up, but also cases in the real life. The method is called "not truly saved". What does that mean? I know people who believed, were born again, lived a sanctified life for years, sacrificing many things for their faith, like their fame, even their job, they lost friends and relatives but sometime in their lifes for their own reasons they decided to go back to the sinful world and live as before. Weren't they truly saved? So what were they doing all those years in the church? What for? Were they masochists? Because being a christian means mainly sacrificies in every aspect of your life.
In the parable of the prodigal son we see a happy end, but in real life the end is not always happy. I always have in mind a couple such cases in my church. People who I met and had companionship with them for a long time.
The nation of Israel is a good example of this, too. At one time they were the people of God, a chosen nation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people ( Ex. 19:6, Deut. 7:6, 10:15).
But due to their repeated idolatry and rebellion, even after the captivity in Assyria and Babylon, and then even more so in Jesus' day, the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people (the believers in Jesus). Romans speaks of the cultivated olive branch which represents Jesus as the holy root, and the Israelites as the branches. Paul speaks about the branches being broken off (unbelieving Jews) and the Gentile believers being ingrafted into the root (Jesus).
But is says that even if some of the branches were broken out because of unbelief and rejection of Jesus (Jews), some Jews who come to believe in Jesus can be grafted back in once again. This illustration never says that the whole nation of Israel is grafted back in, only those who truly return in repentance to God through Christ. These believing Jews then become a part of the holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people chosen of God (now the church of Jesus, which is the people that, were given the kingdom) ( 1 Peter 2:9).
Israel's selection by God and their subsequent rejection of Him and then being cast aside by God with God able to restore those who repent and return to Him in faith again, although very true and real, also is a type and shadow for those of the New Covenant who may fall away and wish to return to God through Christ. He will receive all who are contrite of heart, heavy laden with sin, and desiring to once again have fellowship restored with God in Christ. This is such wonderful news about the grace and mercy and desire of God to those who are to inherit the kingdom promised.
Hebrews 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF"
There are so many verses that are clear that salvation can be lost so that litterally one can write a whole book about it.
As Richard wrote how can one be happy if their salvation is always at risk? Yes I must be happy because God saved me, because He will do everything He can (according to His Justice which means He will never violate my freedom) to bring me back when I stray, like the Shepherd who went to find the lost sheep or the penny in the house, BUT I always have to guard my heart with fear because even if it was regenerated by God when I was born again, it still remains deceitful. And I don't know how I will stand when a temptation wiil stand in front of me. David just gave a glimpse to the naked Bathseba and that was enough to bring him down. Good for him he repented. Saul never repented.
You know in Greece in school we are taught about the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans. History says (but it is possibly just a myth) that the turks found a little gate open in the walls and went in. Constaninople which was heavily fortified so it never fell for a thousand years, fall this time due a little door that was forgoten open during the seige. This can serve as an example of how satan works. He only needs a small opening in our heart to get in. And when he gets in the looting starts.
And by the way, why is satan fighting christians if they can never loose their salvation? But the Bible ( 1 Peter 5:8) says that he goes around to find someone to devour. Paul here talks to christians not to non believers.
Now about Israel, Paul says in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will be saved. Every single one of them? I can not answer to that. It is also written, John 19:37, "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"
..with Jesus being the root, true ethnic and spiritual Israel, can be ingrafted again when they come to faith in Christ. Faith in God through Christ is and always has been the only means of salvation for anyone from Adam to the very last person to come into His kingdom.
You are right that as parents, we are to persevere diligently in prayer AND NOT lose faith in God answering our prayers for our prodigal children. We can cultivate a relationship of love and also of concern for them spiritually as well as physically. We should not shy away from sharing our faith before them, not by being preachy or demanding, but speaking the truth in love and being ready and prepared to give a correct answer to them when they as about the hope in Christ who lives in us for real.
I can accept that there is a tension in the paradox between a believer being able to apostasise and the promise of being preserved in our salvation by grace. I do not need to understand it fully because I really do not think we can. But when a brother or sister does go the way of the prodigal, we must treat them with compassion and grace, informing them that they are out of God' will and unsaved as long as they are in rebellion. The father of the prodigal said that his son was dead but now is alive again. This indicates that the son was "alive" prior to turning away from his father and living a rebellious lifestyle. We would want them to know their perilous standing before God and encourage them to return to God in faith and receive the assurance of salvation AS LONG AS they continue in faith. And when they return in faith, we must encourage them to look to God daily for Him to repair where one has breached one's trust in Him and rebelled again so that they will not return to a state of apostasy once again from which they may not ever repent of.
God took back the Israelites again and again from their fallings into idolatry and unbelief. He did so even when He had sent them into captivity. But when Jesus came and most of the Jews rejected Him, Jesus said that the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people. They died in their sin and apostasy. I think that when Paul said that ALL Israel will be saved, he was talking about those who are of Israel in Christ, Jews and Gentiles, spiritual Israel, because he also said that not all who claim to be Jews are truly Jews. Showing that only true Jews, who believe in Jesus, are saved since all of the Israel of God will be saved, which is the Church. But those that are Jews, but are not truly Jews, are not part of Israel then, and will not be saved.
This is how I understand this. If any Jew who does not believe in Jesus comes to believe, though he was broken off of the olive tree..cont.
I think the verse you quoted in the final post is from Romans 11:22, not Hebrews.
You know, it seems that Christians are all so happy to agree that one is saved who calls on the name of the Lord and confess with one's mouth and believe in one's heart. ( Romans 10:9-13) and this is indeed true. This is what my sons did in their younger years. But then when someone turns away from Jesus, Christians say, "well, He must not have been truly saved." So, I say, did God not truly save them when they believed, confessed, and called upon Him? Does He save some times and not others? Romans says that anyone who does what this verse in Romans IS truly saved. When any Christian says of someone who turns from the faith in Jesus as not being truly saved, they make God a liar and not true to His inspired word.
And for the one who has turned away, how devasting for them to hear that they were not "truly saved" before they fell away. If it were me, I would then be convinced that God was a deceiver and unsafe to put one's trust in. I would not want to return to believe upon Jesus if the first time I was "not truly saved". How would I know that this next time I would be "truly saved" and be confident in being justified before God? This is a truly wicked way to handle the situation of a believer departing from faith. I could never say this to my sons: 1) because I do not believe that they were not truly saved and 2) the response of the one in peril is one of despair without hope of God doing what He promised.
The integrity of God's character is more important than to fall into this excuse of seeing those who left the faith as "not being truly saved" so that one can continue to uphold the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved".
I believe that the salvation of anyone is a work of God towards sinners, for sinners cannot make themselves spiritually alive from being dead in sin. Regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit and He does this when the gospel is heard.....cont
About grace, we must know that there is always a requirement/condition to receive it. It is called repentance. If God were to give His grace having no requirement at all then all people would have been saved. But repentance is needed. Disobedience in His commandments is a sin. Unrepented dissobedience is a sin that stays
In the last supper Jesus washed His disciples feet. We know initially Peter denied. Jesus told him, John 13:8, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me."
If we don't obey God we have no part with Him in Heaven. As simple as that. Christians try to make whole philoshophies out of the Gospel. They take something simple and make a complicated thing out of it and confuse people That is why I insist on simplictity. The Gospel wasn't written for scholars, theologists, scientists but for ordinary everyday people like us. For people with no scientific knowlegge like the ancient people but also for todays's educated people. For all.
I hope I haven't confused you.
About Israel. In Rom 11 Paul talks to the gentiles and tells them, V 18, "Boast not (gentiles) against the branches(Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." The gentiles to not boast against the Hebrews. nd he says next, V25-27, "25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"
So it is obvious that he talks about the nation Israel. Now what does ALL Israel mean? Every single one of them? As you said the gospel doesn't teach a universal salvation. So I guess some will not believe. How many? ...?
Giannis, I know that you are sleeping now, but I wanted to respond by thanking you for such a good response. We do not have it all figured out, but we have Jesus, and that is what it is ALL about. Bless you tonight. I look forward to hearing from you again.
He often uses rewards or punihments to wake us up, like we do to our children, because He loves us, we are His children and He wants to take us with Him in Heaven. He also respects our freedom to have our own decisions about how we like to live. In the parable of the prodigal son the Father didn't try to hinder His Kid from leaving and also He didn't go after him, He just waited patienlty for his return back home. But at the same time God is a righteous God which means that it is in His nature to condemn sinners if they never repent in this life. He gives all people the oppurtunity to be saved in this life so there is no excuse.
If one strays away and never comes back nor repent and dies in their sin, then the next moment their name is erased from the Book of Life and condemnation awaits for them.
This is what Rev 3:5 says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
When one finishes his course victoriously then they will be clothed in white garments(salvation). If not their name will be erased from the Book of Life.
So we actually have a whole lifetime(as long as this is for each one of us) to get things straight in our life. God waits patiently, never condemns, always helps to get ourselves up when we fall down. So there is no reason actually to worry about our salvation, we are given infinite opportunities in our life. But we have not signed a contract with God about the date of our departure from this life so we must always be in a situation of repentance. Remember the 5 wise and 5 unwise virgins. So lets have joy in our lives, we are saved. But also fear about our deceitful heart. Not let satan enter your heart, and if he gets in push him out quickly because as long as he stays in, he is continually destroyig, until he devours us through unrepented sin. I tried to make it as simple as possible.
The truth is I don't have answers to everything but I say what I have been tought that it seems to me it is right, also what I understand when reading the Bible. I am also searching to see what others believe that maybe right. I may be wrong, but for the time being I am not persuaded I am. I am talking about the OSAS belief.
The "once saved, always saved" belief I think innitiated as an innocent effort of some to have an assurance of their salvation and not being in a continuous fear about loosing it. But it lacks in the fact that people have free will and may turn their back to God. So they inserted the idea of "not truly saved". This sums up to, "salvation can not be lost, so all those people who stray are not truly saved, they have never really believed, they were never born again"
Another theory that tries to compromise a secured salvation with people's free will is the theory of predestination. Here the idea of predestination is inserted. This sums up to "Yes people have free will but God selects only those who knows they will never leave Him, hence once one is selected they will never loose their salvation"
I want to believe both beliefs were built on an innocent background, I wouldn't call them herecies, just different beliefs. Anyway they don't influence our salvation unless they give people the belief that they have a permission to be sinners and still never loose their salvation. In such a case a huge problem is created.
I think both beliefs can not understand how salvation can be lost. It is not a continuous series of saved-loose salvation, saved loose salvation condition in one's life. Once one is saved their name are written in the Book of Life and they stay there till their death. God is a longsuffering God, he awaits for us for our whole life to come back to Him if we have strayed away.
Good explanation and citations. I, too, think that Judas was chosen to be Jesus' disciple , given grace to believe, and later betrayed Jesus. He is not the only person in the church who has walked with the Lord with the Spirit indwelling and then betrayed the Lord. Some repent, as Judas is said to have done, but some never return to God. Judas is a an apt example of this. We do not know that he loved money more than Jesus. We do not know why he betrayed Jesus. But, we can know that sin caused Judas to betray Jesus in a premeditated way, having gone to the priests to make a deal.
It may have been that Judas was drawn away from Jesus due to wishing to receive monetary gain. But we do not know that because the text does not say that explicitly. So, it is speculation to say that the reason He betrayed Jesus was out of love for money.
Then again, for speculation purposes, perhaps Judas was disappointed that Jesus was NOT going to set up an earthly kingdom since Jesus had predicted his coming death on several occasions in the weeks prior to Judas making a deal with the priests. He may have at first believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but then hearing that Jesus would be killed caused Judas to doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, but another also Messiah. He would know that a false Messiah should be turned over to the authority of the priests. Judas may have been zealous for the truth of God and surmised that Jesus was an impostor. Of course, this would be an incorrect deduction on Judas' part, but I do think that he was looking for the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom and found Jesus' claims incongruous to His predictions of His death coming very soon.
We do know that Judas was influenced by the devil and succumbed to the deceptive temptations that were brought on him by the evil one. Yet, and Jesus did say that of all 12 apostles, only one was lost that the Father had chosen for Him. This begs the question at hand. ...... cont.
Hi Justjay & thanks for your question. You asked about Mark 14:17-21 about Judas' betrayal of Jesus. In John 17:6-19 (in Jesus' prayer to His Father, just prior to this betrayal by Judas), Jesus prayed for His disciples & in particular v12: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled". Jesus, of course was referring to Judas as the "son of perdition", but was declaring that Judas, as a disciple, would be lost because of the fulfillment of Scripture.
So yes, God is All-knowing & certainly Jesus knew about Judas' betrayal even before he was appointed amongst the twelve, but through that Divine Knowledge, the prophecy had already been made approx 1000 years earlier (in Psalm 41:9). See also Psalm 55:12-15; Psalm 69:25; and Psalm 109:6-8: these passages also allude to the one who would ultimately betray Jesus. And the Apostle Peter also refers to Psalm 69:25, in his message in Acts 1:20. So yes, this betrayal was pre-ordained, in accordance with prophecy. And there could be other reasons why God permitted/ordained this to happen. Reasons such as proof of the veracity of God's Word & Power, a powerful testimony to the disciples of true discipleship & faithfulness in spite of doubts & Satan's taunts, and even to Judas, of his harboring great sin & allowing it to be manifested to the point of killing the Messiah. Jesus had to die to pay the ransom for our sins, "but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" ( Matthew 26:24).
Should we then feel sorry for Judas, thinking 'this poor man was ordained to pre-mature death & had not choice in the matter?' No, Judas acted because of his own wickedness (not forced upon him by God); Judas because of his sin, fulfilled the prophecy & Plan of God for him & Jesus' Sacrifice.
Amen to that. Judas was evil from the start. Jesus chose an evil man to fulfill an evil deed. What amazes me about this whole situation is that Jesus said I chose you twelve, and one of you is going to betray me. They each asked "is it I?"
You would think that after 3 years together, right away someone would have suspected Judas. But they had no idea who it was. But Jesus knew.
I have to wonder how many Judas' we have sitting in our church fellowships today, people who are there that participate with everyone and they seem like true believers on the outside, but inside are no different than Judas.
We just don't know. Some might believe that since they are participating in fellowship that they are saved, and then one day they just leave and want nothing to do with church or the Lord, and they use that to say they lost their salvation.
Some even use Judas as an example. But we know that Judas was evil from the very beginning. Judas was never a true follower of Christ. The scripture says that he was a thief and a robber. He was in charge of the money bag and he unbeknownst to the other eleven, he was stealing money from the bag.
This I believe would be equivalent to someone in our church fellowship stealing money from the collection basket, stealing from the Lord!
Thanks brother Jesse. After reading your comment, 1 John 2:18,19 came to mind. In these verses is an apt account of what you've shared: there were those who fellowshipped with others in the assembly, who participated in all the works of the Church, even using the right words or even sharing from the Word, but it was when the moment of Truth emerged that showed where their real faith & love lay.
John calls them 'anti-Christs', not only because they "went out" from their midst, but the core anti-Christ belief emerged from them, that Jesus wasn't the Christ, that the relationship of Father & Son was false (vv22,23). How could they have continued in the Church for so long & not be detected as false brethren? How could Judas also have escaped the other disciples' notice? Only when Judas was identified, got up, left their midst, & pursued his dastardly act against the Lord, was his true identity & motives revealed to them. Jesus knew all along who His betrayer was, even as He knows those who are the imposters in His Church. And so we will all grow together until the time of reaping & separation at the rapture.
When we fellowship with a group of believers & we detect that the Word of God is not being handled correctly, we can leave speedily & join another. I doubt that in those days of the fledgling Church, whether there was such an option of finding another group - if one left, as John points out, it meant that their departure revealed their true identity & even their motives for being in the Church. I wonder how many of the cults that we have now, have had their founders formerly in or acquainted with a Christian Church. I think that even before we determine that a believer has turned apostate & gone back into the world, we should understand as John did, 'not all who left us were of us - that it is the Holy Spirit unction in us who enables us to apprehend the Truth & to remain true to the One Who has called us out of darkness into His Light'. Every blessing.
My belief about Judas differs from that of Chris.
Many wonder why did God select Judas as an apostle while He knew he would betray Him?
The answer is, for the same reason that He selected Saul as the first king of Israel while He knew he would fail, for the same reason he selected Balaam as a prophet while He knew he would betray Israel, for the same reason that He selected Jehasi as a successor of Elisha while He knew he would later go after money, for the same reason He selected the sons of Aaron as high priests while He knew they would eventually dissobey His commandments by placing strange fire so they got punished. For the same reason He created mankind although He knew we would fall into sin and He would be compelled to sacrifice Himself to save us. For the same reason He selects today ministers in various churches and gives them talents to work for Him but some bury them and end up in the outer darkness( Matthew 25:14-3). For the same reason He saves people that would later leave him and end up in hell.
Because He is a fair and good God who gives opportunities to everybody; to people to serve him when he knows that they want to do that and they are in a good spiritual condition and have the ability to carry the load of the Lord. It is like a father who although knows that his son is a lazy boy who will probably never succeed anything in his life, still loves him and does everything he can to help him. Gives him all sort of opportunities and sacrifices a lot for him. Because he loves him and wants to see him happy in his life. But the result depends on the son, not on the father.
Judas resembles much to Saul the King. He was a good choice in the beggining. He was born again llike Saul was given the Spirit of God and prophesied. But later ended up loving money more than Jesus like Saul loved honor and fame more than the God who made him a King. At the end satan entered him like Saul got possesed by an evil spirit, they both ended up in hell. Very sad.
[Comment Removed]
No need for apology. It is an open forum, and even though I specifically directed the question to a single individual and was specifically looking for that individual's response, you, along with all others are free to be the first to respond. First, let me say thank you for sharing this. Yes, as you said, "it may be helpful in someone's understanding on this topic."
Something else that might be helpful in other's understanding of this topic is that the "book of the living" and the "Lamb's book of life" are not the same. If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "book of the living" is only found one time in the Old Testament, and it refers to everyone who has been physically born into this world. The book of the living has listed in it everybody that has received human life. This is something the Jews would have understood. It was custom in those days to record the names of everyone who was physically born into this world into a ledger (Book). The Jews would have understood the phrase "book of the living" to be such. Just like today, everyone physically born into this world has their names recorded in a register, or book of live birth.
The Lamb's book of life is not the same as the book of the living. The Lamb's book of life contains the names of everyone who belongs to Christ, those who have received Him and have eternal life. When a person receives Jesus Christ, their name is recorded into the Lamb's book of life. And according to scripture, no one who has been saved will ever be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Nothing in scripture tells us that Judas' name was ever recorded in the Lamb's book of life.
Blessings!
Can one who the father chooses and draws to Jesus turn away from Him in unbelief after having believed and received the Spirit and grace? How does this square with the concept of election and the irrevocable calling of the gift of God?
I agree that there are many places in Scripture that speak to the real possibility of a true believer apostasying. And also many Scripture verses that speak to the assurance of salvation to those called by election. .
So, what is the truth on the matter of "Once saved always saved"? This is a very confusing paradox taught in Scripture.
For, me, I take both aspects into account. I would never tell someone who once believed and fell away that they were never really saved in the first place or they would not have fell away. This would leave them even more unsure of the truth of the gospel they once believed. But for one who is a believer and has doubts, I would show them Scripture that gives assurance of salvation.
My sons, are a good example of this. They were exposed to the gospel over and over throughout their childhood, and they believed in Jesus up through high school. But through outside exposures of worldly ideas, they fell away. I would not tell them that they were not really saved as children and youths, nor would I say they are still saved in their present state of rejection. I would tell them that when they placed their faith in the gospel and believed in Jesus, they were indeed saved, but now in their unbelief, they need to repent and return to Jesus to once again be saved. Jesus will always receive any who call on Him for salvation through faith. His grace is available to all who seek Him, regardless if it is their first turning to Him or a turning back to Him after turning away from Him. But I would say that no one in rebellion to God in unbelief is in a safe and saved position before God and must turn back to Him for forgiveness and faith.
These real scenarios on this topic present a perplexity.
GiGi
One case was a guy who was a drug addict. He believed, God freed him completely from his passion, like he had never taken drugs before, He saved his wife, his little girl, his sister... All 4 of them stayed in the faith for years. Good people. The guy was working as a cleaner but he was struggling to earn his living. After years he decided to go back to his previous job. Before believing he and his family were going to beaches in the summertime and were selling cookies, ice creams, this sort of things. They used to earn a lot of money. So he decided to go back. The church warned him that such places are not good for christians, walking among seminaked women. Also there was the risk that his old pals would approach him again. He wouldn't listen. Later he was found by his wife dead with a needle in his arm. I just hope he had the chance to repent before his end. Who knows.
Second case. There was a couple that believed. Not married together. The woman was married before and was separated. The man had some serious alcohol issues, his liver was damaged. They separated. The guy got married to a sister in faith and had 2 nice girls. The woman prayed for her husband to be joined with her (my church does not remary separated people). but after many years they got back together (that is why we should always guard our deceitful heart). The guy left his family and they both left the church and lived together. Eventually he died due to liver destruction. The woman is still out there lost. Did he go to heaven? I don't want to give an answer.
God wants to save us, but the final decisions are made by us. We are not robots, we are not programmed, we have free will which He will never violate. God doesn't save only people who knows they will never leave Him. That would be unfair for the rest. The Bible says that He wants ALL people to be saved, but not everybody is saved.
About Judas, it is true that we don't know much about him apart that he eventually became a thief and kept stealing money from the bag ( John 12:6), so it seems he had some issues with money. I have also heard those theories about Judas but I don't know where they rely on, in which writtings.
I am sorry about your sons. My son also left the faith when he was 15, now he is 20, although he was born in the church. But we must trust God that He will eventually find a way to draw them back. This is a promise to believers, remember what Paul and Silas said to the guard in Philippi, Acts 17:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, AND THY HOUSE.". There isn't much we can do on our own apart from praying and talking to them, if and when they wish to hear. I know very many cases of parents who didn't quit and insisted in praying about their kids and finally saw marvelous results. So be encouraged.
Now about the belief of OSAS I believe they found a method to overcome all those cases we see in the Bible, about believers who mess their salvation up, but also cases in the real life. The method is called "not truly saved". What does that mean? I know people who believed, were born again, lived a sanctified life for years, sacrificing many things for their faith, like their fame, even their job, they lost friends and relatives but sometime in their lifes for their own reasons they decided to go back to the sinful world and live as before. Weren't they truly saved? So what were they doing all those years in the church? What for? Were they masochists? Because being a christian means mainly sacrificies in every aspect of your life.
In the parable of the prodigal son we see a happy end, but in real life the end is not always happy. I always have in mind a couple such cases in my church. People who I met and had companionship with them for a long time.
Prt. 3
The nation of Israel is a good example of this, too. At one time they were the people of God, a chosen nation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people ( Ex. 19:6, Deut. 7:6, 10:15).
But due to their repeated idolatry and rebellion, even after the captivity in Assyria and Babylon, and then even more so in Jesus' day, the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people (the believers in Jesus). Romans speaks of the cultivated olive branch which represents Jesus as the holy root, and the Israelites as the branches. Paul speaks about the branches being broken off (unbelieving Jews) and the Gentile believers being ingrafted into the root (Jesus).
But is says that even if some of the branches were broken out because of unbelief and rejection of Jesus (Jews), some Jews who come to believe in Jesus can be grafted back in once again. This illustration never says that the whole nation of Israel is grafted back in, only those who truly return in repentance to God through Christ. These believing Jews then become a part of the holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people chosen of God (now the church of Jesus, which is the people that, were given the kingdom) ( 1 Peter 2:9).
Israel's selection by God and their subsequent rejection of Him and then being cast aside by God with God able to restore those who repent and return to Him in faith again, although very true and real, also is a type and shadow for those of the New Covenant who may fall away and wish to return to God through Christ. He will receive all who are contrite of heart, heavy laden with sin, and desiring to once again have fellowship restored with God in Christ. This is such wonderful news about the grace and mercy and desire of God to those who are to inherit the kingdom promised.
Hebrews 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF"
There are so many verses that are clear that salvation can be lost so that litterally one can write a whole book about it.
As Richard wrote how can one be happy if their salvation is always at risk? Yes I must be happy because God saved me, because He will do everything He can (according to His Justice which means He will never violate my freedom) to bring me back when I stray, like the Shepherd who went to find the lost sheep or the penny in the house, BUT I always have to guard my heart with fear because even if it was regenerated by God when I was born again, it still remains deceitful. And I don't know how I will stand when a temptation wiil stand in front of me. David just gave a glimpse to the naked Bathseba and that was enough to bring him down. Good for him he repented. Saul never repented.
You know in Greece in school we are taught about the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans. History says (but it is possibly just a myth) that the turks found a little gate open in the walls and went in. Constaninople which was heavily fortified so it never fell for a thousand years, fall this time due a little door that was forgoten open during the seige. This can serve as an example of how satan works. He only needs a small opening in our heart to get in. And when he gets in the looting starts.
And by the way, why is satan fighting christians if they can never loose their salvation? But the Bible ( 1 Peter 5:8) says that he goes around to find someone to devour. Paul here talks to christians not to non believers.
Now about Israel, Paul says in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will be saved. Every single one of them? I can not answer to that. It is also written, John 19:37, "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"
GBU
Final post,
..with Jesus being the root, true ethnic and spiritual Israel, can be ingrafted again when they come to faith in Christ. Faith in God through Christ is and always has been the only means of salvation for anyone from Adam to the very last person to come into His kingdom.
You are right that as parents, we are to persevere diligently in prayer AND NOT lose faith in God answering our prayers for our prodigal children. We can cultivate a relationship of love and also of concern for them spiritually as well as physically. We should not shy away from sharing our faith before them, not by being preachy or demanding, but speaking the truth in love and being ready and prepared to give a correct answer to them when they as about the hope in Christ who lives in us for real.
part 2.
I can accept that there is a tension in the paradox between a believer being able to apostasise and the promise of being preserved in our salvation by grace. I do not need to understand it fully because I really do not think we can. But when a brother or sister does go the way of the prodigal, we must treat them with compassion and grace, informing them that they are out of God' will and unsaved as long as they are in rebellion. The father of the prodigal said that his son was dead but now is alive again. This indicates that the son was "alive" prior to turning away from his father and living a rebellious lifestyle. We would want them to know their perilous standing before God and encourage them to return to God in faith and receive the assurance of salvation AS LONG AS they continue in faith. And when they return in faith, we must encourage them to look to God daily for Him to repair where one has breached one's trust in Him and rebelled again so that they will not return to a state of apostasy once again from which they may not ever repent of.
God took back the Israelites again and again from their fallings into idolatry and unbelief. He did so even when He had sent them into captivity. But when Jesus came and most of the Jews rejected Him, Jesus said that the kingdom was taken from them and given to another people. They died in their sin and apostasy. I think that when Paul said that ALL Israel will be saved, he was talking about those who are of Israel in Christ, Jews and Gentiles, spiritual Israel, because he also said that not all who claim to be Jews are truly Jews. Showing that only true Jews, who believe in Jesus, are saved since all of the Israel of God will be saved, which is the Church. But those that are Jews, but are not truly Jews, are not part of Israel then, and will not be saved.
This is how I understand this. If any Jew who does not believe in Jesus comes to believe, though he was broken off of the olive tree..cont.
I think the verse you quoted in the final post is from Romans 11:22, not Hebrews.
You know, it seems that Christians are all so happy to agree that one is saved who calls on the name of the Lord and confess with one's mouth and believe in one's heart. ( Romans 10:9-13) and this is indeed true. This is what my sons did in their younger years. But then when someone turns away from Jesus, Christians say, "well, He must not have been truly saved." So, I say, did God not truly save them when they believed, confessed, and called upon Him? Does He save some times and not others? Romans says that anyone who does what this verse in Romans IS truly saved. When any Christian says of someone who turns from the faith in Jesus as not being truly saved, they make God a liar and not true to His inspired word.
And for the one who has turned away, how devasting for them to hear that they were not "truly saved" before they fell away. If it were me, I would then be convinced that God was a deceiver and unsafe to put one's trust in. I would not want to return to believe upon Jesus if the first time I was "not truly saved". How would I know that this next time I would be "truly saved" and be confident in being justified before God? This is a truly wicked way to handle the situation of a believer departing from faith. I could never say this to my sons: 1) because I do not believe that they were not truly saved and 2) the response of the one in peril is one of despair without hope of God doing what He promised.
The integrity of God's character is more important than to fall into this excuse of seeing those who left the faith as "not being truly saved" so that one can continue to uphold the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved".
I believe that the salvation of anyone is a work of God towards sinners, for sinners cannot make themselves spiritually alive from being dead in sin. Regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit and He does this when the gospel is heard.....cont
Gigi
About grace, we must know that there is always a requirement/condition to receive it. It is called repentance. If God were to give His grace having no requirement at all then all people would have been saved. But repentance is needed. Disobedience in His commandments is a sin. Unrepented dissobedience is a sin that stays
In the last supper Jesus washed His disciples feet. We know initially Peter denied. Jesus told him, John 13:8, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me."
If we don't obey God we have no part with Him in Heaven. As simple as that. Christians try to make whole philoshophies out of the Gospel. They take something simple and make a complicated thing out of it and confuse people That is why I insist on simplictity. The Gospel wasn't written for scholars, theologists, scientists but for ordinary everyday people like us. For people with no scientific knowlegge like the ancient people but also for todays's educated people. For all.
I hope I haven't confused you.
About Israel. In Rom 11 Paul talks to the gentiles and tells them, V 18, "Boast not (gentiles) against the branches(Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." The gentiles to not boast against the Hebrews. nd he says next, V25-27, "25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"
So it is obvious that he talks about the nation Israel. Now what does ALL Israel mean? Every single one of them? As you said the gospel doesn't teach a universal salvation. So I guess some will not believe. How many? ...?
GBu
GiGi
He often uses rewards or punihments to wake us up, like we do to our children, because He loves us, we are His children and He wants to take us with Him in Heaven. He also respects our freedom to have our own decisions about how we like to live. In the parable of the prodigal son the Father didn't try to hinder His Kid from leaving and also He didn't go after him, He just waited patienlty for his return back home. But at the same time God is a righteous God which means that it is in His nature to condemn sinners if they never repent in this life. He gives all people the oppurtunity to be saved in this life so there is no excuse.
If one strays away and never comes back nor repent and dies in their sin, then the next moment their name is erased from the Book of Life and condemnation awaits for them.
This is what Rev 3:5 says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
When one finishes his course victoriously then they will be clothed in white garments(salvation). If not their name will be erased from the Book of Life.
So we actually have a whole lifetime(as long as this is for each one of us) to get things straight in our life. God waits patiently, never condemns, always helps to get ourselves up when we fall down. So there is no reason actually to worry about our salvation, we are given infinite opportunities in our life. But we have not signed a contract with God about the date of our departure from this life so we must always be in a situation of repentance. Remember the 5 wise and 5 unwise virgins. So lets have joy in our lives, we are saved. But also fear about our deceitful heart. Not let satan enter your heart, and if he gets in push him out quickly because as long as he stays in, he is continually destroyig, until he devours us through unrepented sin. I tried to make it as simple as possible.
Hello GiGi
The truth is I don't have answers to everything but I say what I have been tought that it seems to me it is right, also what I understand when reading the Bible. I am also searching to see what others believe that maybe right. I may be wrong, but for the time being I am not persuaded I am. I am talking about the OSAS belief.
The "once saved, always saved" belief I think innitiated as an innocent effort of some to have an assurance of their salvation and not being in a continuous fear about loosing it. But it lacks in the fact that people have free will and may turn their back to God. So they inserted the idea of "not truly saved". This sums up to, "salvation can not be lost, so all those people who stray are not truly saved, they have never really believed, they were never born again"
Another theory that tries to compromise a secured salvation with people's free will is the theory of predestination. Here the idea of predestination is inserted. This sums up to "Yes people have free will but God selects only those who knows they will never leave Him, hence once one is selected they will never loose their salvation"
I want to believe both beliefs were built on an innocent background, I wouldn't call them herecies, just different beliefs. Anyway they don't influence our salvation unless they give people the belief that they have a permission to be sinners and still never loose their salvation. In such a case a huge problem is created.
I think both beliefs can not understand how salvation can be lost. It is not a continuous series of saved-loose salvation, saved loose salvation condition in one's life. Once one is saved their name are written in the Book of Life and they stay there till their death. God is a longsuffering God, he awaits for us for our whole life to come back to Him if we have strayed away.
Good explanation and citations. I, too, think that Judas was chosen to be Jesus' disciple , given grace to believe, and later betrayed Jesus. He is not the only person in the church who has walked with the Lord with the Spirit indwelling and then betrayed the Lord. Some repent, as Judas is said to have done, but some never return to God. Judas is a an apt example of this. We do not know that he loved money more than Jesus. We do not know why he betrayed Jesus. But, we can know that sin caused Judas to betray Jesus in a premeditated way, having gone to the priests to make a deal.
It may have been that Judas was drawn away from Jesus due to wishing to receive monetary gain. But we do not know that because the text does not say that explicitly. So, it is speculation to say that the reason He betrayed Jesus was out of love for money.
Then again, for speculation purposes, perhaps Judas was disappointed that Jesus was NOT going to set up an earthly kingdom since Jesus had predicted his coming death on several occasions in the weeks prior to Judas making a deal with the priests. He may have at first believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah, but then hearing that Jesus would be killed caused Judas to doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, but another also Messiah. He would know that a false Messiah should be turned over to the authority of the priests. Judas may have been zealous for the truth of God and surmised that Jesus was an impostor. Of course, this would be an incorrect deduction on Judas' part, but I do think that he was looking for the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom and found Jesus' claims incongruous to His predictions of His death coming very soon.
We do know that Judas was influenced by the devil and succumbed to the deceptive temptations that were brought on him by the evil one. Yet, and Jesus did say that of all 12 apostles, only one was lost that the Father had chosen for Him. This begs the question at hand. ...... cont.
So yes, God is All-knowing & certainly Jesus knew about Judas' betrayal even before he was appointed amongst the twelve, but through that Divine Knowledge, the prophecy had already been made approx 1000 years earlier (in Psalm 41:9). See also Psalm 55:12-15; Psalm 69:25; and Psalm 109:6-8: these passages also allude to the one who would ultimately betray Jesus. And the Apostle Peter also refers to Psalm 69:25, in his message in Acts 1:20. So yes, this betrayal was pre-ordained, in accordance with prophecy. And there could be other reasons why God permitted/ordained this to happen. Reasons such as proof of the veracity of God's Word & Power, a powerful testimony to the disciples of true discipleship & faithfulness in spite of doubts & Satan's taunts, and even to Judas, of his harboring great sin & allowing it to be manifested to the point of killing the Messiah. Jesus had to die to pay the ransom for our sins, "but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" ( Matthew 26:24).
Should we then feel sorry for Judas, thinking 'this poor man was ordained to pre-mature death & had not choice in the matter?' No, Judas acted because of his own wickedness (not forced upon him by God); Judas because of his sin, fulfilled the prophecy & Plan of God for him & Jesus' Sacrifice.
Amen to that. Judas was evil from the start. Jesus chose an evil man to fulfill an evil deed. What amazes me about this whole situation is that Jesus said I chose you twelve, and one of you is going to betray me. They each asked "is it I?"
You would think that after 3 years together, right away someone would have suspected Judas. But they had no idea who it was. But Jesus knew.
I have to wonder how many Judas' we have sitting in our church fellowships today, people who are there that participate with everyone and they seem like true believers on the outside, but inside are no different than Judas.
We just don't know. Some might believe that since they are participating in fellowship that they are saved, and then one day they just leave and want nothing to do with church or the Lord, and they use that to say they lost their salvation.
Some even use Judas as an example. But we know that Judas was evil from the very beginning. Judas was never a true follower of Christ. The scripture says that he was a thief and a robber. He was in charge of the money bag and he unbeknownst to the other eleven, he was stealing money from the bag.
This I believe would be equivalent to someone in our church fellowship stealing money from the collection basket, stealing from the Lord!
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
John calls them 'anti-Christs', not only because they "went out" from their midst, but the core anti-Christ belief emerged from them, that Jesus wasn't the Christ, that the relationship of Father & Son was false (vv22,23). How could they have continued in the Church for so long & not be detected as false brethren? How could Judas also have escaped the other disciples' notice? Only when Judas was identified, got up, left their midst, & pursued his dastardly act against the Lord, was his true identity & motives revealed to them. Jesus knew all along who His betrayer was, even as He knows those who are the imposters in His Church. And so we will all grow together until the time of reaping & separation at the rapture.
When we fellowship with a group of believers & we detect that the Word of God is not being handled correctly, we can leave speedily & join another. I doubt that in those days of the fledgling Church, whether there was such an option of finding another group - if one left, as John points out, it meant that their departure revealed their true identity & even their motives for being in the Church. I wonder how many of the cults that we have now, have had their founders formerly in or acquainted with a Christian Church. I think that even before we determine that a believer has turned apostate & gone back into the world, we should understand as John did, 'not all who left us were of us - that it is the Holy Spirit unction in us who enables us to apprehend the Truth & to remain true to the One Who has called us out of darkness into His Light'. Every blessing.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Please Sign In or Register to post comments...
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?