I feel like the timing of the "rapture" is clear in God's Word: These verses are the same event:
Matthew 13
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Revelation 14
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Daniel 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Matthew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
May we all have oil in our lamps when the Lord returns, God bless
I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.
The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.
Right, many are called and few are chosen. The road is narrow, etc. I do believe we all need to be in a right relationship with God, through His Son Jesus. We need to be born again. I'm excited to see how you sort this all out. God Bless
Introduction to eschatology discussion regarding timing of events from Rapture to 2nd Coming (continued).
As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.
I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.
We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.
I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.
I agree we are at the end of this age. I have heard some people think we still could have 200 to 2000 years left on earth before the Lord's return. But, I think the urgency is due to what we are seeing in the world today. These are not conspiracies, the highest level of governments are ready to rid the world of the physical dollar and impliment the digital dollar. The World Economic Forum is already discussing chips implanted in hands and brains. The world is unifying into a one world government. I won't get into the population control and the control over the food supplies, but these things are happening, just like the Word of God said it would. The beast with 10 heads are 10 kings that will run the world during the end times before the anti christ takes over, the world has already been broken up into 10 regions. To me, that is why the topic of the Great Tribulation is so important right now.
The Word of God is the oil to our lamps. God Bless
Thank you for your comment Tammy. It is nice when there don't have to be fisticuffs on this topic. I hope to present a detailed and balanced perspective. Your point is quite important as to the 10 kings being prepared before Antichrist takes them over; nonetheless they don't reign (or have a Kingdom) until he subdues 3 of them and they co-rule with him in his new world order style dictatorship.
The focus is; indeed on edification of the saints. I will state also; I have been given discernment to have insight and visions as to certain things in the time of the end. Saying God has shown me something; I realize makes me join the crowd of all the true and false "revelations" that have been espoused by others that say they have had a dream and such. Whatever camp you are on as to whether the church goes through part of the Tribulation; most or none understanding just how horrible it will be ( Matt. 24:21) is sobering and leaves us much as Daniel did after having his visions of God.
It is important as I sort of pointed out already to understand how the great harvest of souls in the innumerable multitude ( Rev. 7:9) still eclipses such horrors through victory. The real terror is for the lost who will be attacked directly and tormented by demons as the 5th trumpet clearly states. As you pointed out also deception will be at a peak; and as I plan to reiterate in my upcoming posts; ALL those whose names are not written in the Book of Life WILL worship the Beast. ( Rev. 13:8). Also even the elect would be decieved IF IT WERE POSSIBLE ( Matt. 24:24). My point in shouting is to emphasize the fact that if we are elect we cannot ultimately fall away or be "unsaved". That is another hot topic; which we are discussing in my church small group at present. I am pointing out that again; no matter how you view it the result is the same; some are saved others lost. There are some who live through and others who die victorious in the Trib (most die of course).
Thanks Richard, I like that you're tackling this topic. Since the topic is futuristic/prophecy, we won't get it 100%, I don't believe anyone has it all figured out. So, I think it's great that we brothers and sisters in Christ can discuss and get as close as we can. God Bless
The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.
The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.
Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.
That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.
The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.
The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.
In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel
The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,
This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.
The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.
Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....
The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.
Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....
The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.
Dividing the Word: Eschatology in regard to the Rapture of the Church; other resurrections and the Second Coming of Christ
1 Corinthians 15:23 explains about Christ; the firstfruits and those that are there at His coming (loosely translated). The Day of the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:10) also has a time factor; I would argue that it encompasses the entire period from the Second Coming of Christ to the final consummation at the end of the Millennium; in other words the concept of the last day of rest being that time frame ( 2 Peter 3:8 just two verses previous). When we look at verses right before Armageddon ( Rev. 16:15) we see a reference to the thief in the night also. This complicates things further if we analyze the parable of the two virgins as it seems on the surface to indicate those not ready at the Rapture but it could also refer to those all the way up to the Second Coming (such as Jews in Israel who apparently don't realize who their true Messiah is until He returns or immediately before-see in Zechariah 12:12.
I am attempting to get some clarity on the subject of the Rapture (or harpazo the word used in the original language). There seems to be question on it even being an actual event (although that is in the minority). I anticipate a number of posts; ultimately I want to present as much scripture as possible so that we can all be Bereans. I will be the first to admit that some things are difficult to understand. Also; I wish to differentiate between what may more than one valid opinion as there are multiple events the occur. There are also certain distinct events that occur during the Tribulation; but with the brevity of the time frame there is certainly much overlap between the church age; and the coming Millenial period with distinctions between those living in heaven; those who survive the judgments to repopulate the earth and those martyred during the Tribulation who rise again.
Richard, my understanding is that the majority of the Christian world believed in a post trib view prior to the 1800's. I would love to hear what you find on the topic. I know people have found a priest or a monk here or there that may have taught a pre trib view point prior to the 1800's, but even so, the majority of Christiandom held to the view of a post trib rapture.
Normally, a non-salvation issue, I wouldn't be as concerned if someone had a different view point. But, because a pre trib view is heavy on the point of not being here during the Great Tribulation, the revelation of the anti christ, and the mark of the beast, my fear is that they would fall into the deception Jesus warned about and could possibly believe the anti christ is the Lord Jesus Christ at his return. Because we know the anti christ will be claiming to be God, and he will be performing many signs and wonders. And, because the Word says the saints will be delivered up to death, by their own family members, with the family members thinking they are doing a good thing. To me, this is saying, the saints are refusing to believe the anti christ is God, and refusing the mark, and the world is thinking the saints are "the bad guys" if you will.
I look forward to the info you find on the subject.
Thanks Tammy. Those verses are often overlooked. A man recently referenced 2 Thess. 1,2 for a pre-trib rapture "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." but hasn't pondered verse 3 with the timing that believers will see the anitchrist.
"Let no man deceive you by any means:" for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Hammer63, you explained that perfectly. "For that day shall not come..." What day? "Our gathering together unto him". Until what? Until there is a falling away and the anti christ is revealed, and that is during the Great Tribulation. Jesus returns and gathers us together unto him after that.
I understand why some people might be afraid to go through this Tribulation, they have family, children, etc., but not preparing for it is dangerous, because deception seems to be what is warned about the most, not the beheadings. Jesus even said in Matthew 24:
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
TammyC I completely agree with you, those are the same event. You can also add ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and ( 1 Cor 15:51-55) to your list, these verses are also speaking of the same event. Blessings.
Matthew 13
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Revelation 14
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Daniel 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Matthew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
May we all have oil in our lamps when the Lord returns, God bless
I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.
The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.
As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.
I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.
We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.
I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.
The Word of God is the oil to our lamps. God Bless
The focus is; indeed on edification of the saints. I will state also; I have been given discernment to have insight and visions as to certain things in the time of the end. Saying God has shown me something; I realize makes me join the crowd of all the true and false "revelations" that have been espoused by others that say they have had a dream and such. Whatever camp you are on as to whether the church goes through part of the Tribulation; most or none understanding just how horrible it will be ( Matt. 24:21) is sobering and leaves us much as Daniel did after having his visions of God.
It is important as I sort of pointed out already to understand how the great harvest of souls in the innumerable multitude ( Rev. 7:9) still eclipses such horrors through victory. The real terror is for the lost who will be attacked directly and tormented by demons as the 5th trumpet clearly states. As you pointed out also deception will be at a peak; and as I plan to reiterate in my upcoming posts; ALL those whose names are not written in the Book of Life WILL worship the Beast. ( Rev. 13:8). Also even the elect would be decieved IF IT WERE POSSIBLE ( Matt. 24:24). My point in shouting is to emphasize the fact that if we are elect we cannot ultimately fall away or be "unsaved". That is another hot topic; which we are discussing in my church small group at present. I am pointing out that again; no matter how you view it the result is the same; some are saved others lost. There are some who live through and others who die victorious in the Trib (most die of course).
The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.
The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.
Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.
That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.
The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.
The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.
In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel
The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,
This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.
The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.
Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....
The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.
Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....
The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.
God bless you.
1 Corinthians 15:23 explains about Christ; the firstfruits and those that are there at His coming (loosely translated). The Day of the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:10) also has a time factor; I would argue that it encompasses the entire period from the Second Coming of Christ to the final consummation at the end of the Millennium; in other words the concept of the last day of rest being that time frame ( 2 Peter 3:8 just two verses previous). When we look at verses right before Armageddon ( Rev. 16:15) we see a reference to the thief in the night also. This complicates things further if we analyze the parable of the two virgins as it seems on the surface to indicate those not ready at the Rapture but it could also refer to those all the way up to the Second Coming (such as Jews in Israel who apparently don't realize who their true Messiah is until He returns or immediately before-see in Zechariah 12:12.
I am attempting to get some clarity on the subject of the Rapture (or harpazo the word used in the original language). There seems to be question on it even being an actual event (although that is in the minority). I anticipate a number of posts; ultimately I want to present as much scripture as possible so that we can all be Bereans. I will be the first to admit that some things are difficult to understand. Also; I wish to differentiate between what may more than one valid opinion as there are multiple events the occur. There are also certain distinct events that occur during the Tribulation; but with the brevity of the time frame there is certainly much overlap between the church age; and the coming Millenial period with distinctions between those living in heaven; those who survive the judgments to repopulate the earth and those martyred during the Tribulation who rise again.
Normally, a non-salvation issue, I wouldn't be as concerned if someone had a different view point. But, because a pre trib view is heavy on the point of not being here during the Great Tribulation, the revelation of the anti christ, and the mark of the beast, my fear is that they would fall into the deception Jesus warned about and could possibly believe the anti christ is the Lord Jesus Christ at his return. Because we know the anti christ will be claiming to be God, and he will be performing many signs and wonders. And, because the Word says the saints will be delivered up to death, by their own family members, with the family members thinking they are doing a good thing. To me, this is saying, the saints are refusing to believe the anti christ is God, and refusing the mark, and the world is thinking the saints are "the bad guys" if you will.
I look forward to the info you find on the subject.
God Bless
"Let no man deceive you by any means:" for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
I understand why some people might be afraid to go through this Tribulation, they have family, children, etc., but not preparing for it is dangerous, because deception seems to be what is warned about the most, not the beheadings. Jesus even said in Matthew 24:
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Please Sign In or Register to post comments...
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?