Because of some of the comments I see here, I feel compelled to again state what the Bible declares regarding how we are to view and interpret the Bible.
> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.
Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.
But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.
Lemme ramble a bit about the written word vs the living word the new covenant in his blood at Calvary...2 Cor.3:6 thou has made us able ministers of the New Covenant...The living word which is spirit the H.G a living being that has to be born in us...Remember Israel was sola scriptura they knew the written word by heart...But Israel stoned all the prophets and rejected the Christ so much for the written word....The written word cd not address nor arrest mans evil nature...David comes to mind a law man, But the written word cd not help David when he saw Bathsheba bathin....Thats y God wanted a new covenant a Covenant that cd address mans evil nature...Satans seat can only be addresed by the blood of the lamb of God....Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....The old covenant the written word cd not plz God entirely...God wanted a perfect Israel...Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.
Thus the need for a New Covenant in the blood of Christ Jesus..For God has made us able ministers of the N.C. Not of the letter the written word but of the spirit the living Word... 2 Cor. 3:6...The letter kills but the Spirit gives life....The written word is a light, we need the written word...But the written word answers to the lesser light...But the living word is the greater light..Jesus said are there not 12 hrs in a day and 12 hrs in a nite...But if any man walk in the nite he will stumble...Bible only no living words the H.G....That Living being the H.G. that Child of Promise that has to be born in us...The N.C. Which is our new heart and new spirit....She brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations...Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...As peter said being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that LIVETH and ABIDETH for ever...The written word contains no such seeds....Where shall we go lord thou has the words of eternal life...My words are spirit. N.C.
Lemme continue a bit about that New Covenant in the blood of Jesus at Calvary....If the O.C. the written word cd have redeemed the world God wd not have offered up his only son to suffer for the sins of the world.....Under this N.C. its the anointing the H.G. that is gonna teach us all things....1 st John 2:27....When he had taken the cup he says this is the N.C. IN MY BLOOD DRINK YE ALL OF IT....The bible is precious but it answers to the lesser light the O.C. The levitical Priesthood.... John 5 :39...Thats y he is saying search the Scriptures (the written words) in them you think you have eternal life but it is them that testify of me...Which is that book the N.C. in the right hand of the father...That book of life in Rev.5:1....Its only the living words that book in the right hand of the father that testifies of Jesus....When he the spirit of truth is come he will bare witness of me...Testify of me.
.....The woman in Rev 12:5 has the testimony of Jesus which is the manchild the H.G. that he said wd bare witness of me....Its only the H.G. The manchild which is that spirit of truth that will rule all nations...Thats y he said these things are hid from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes and sucklings....which are that Israel of God the H.G (spirits) that are gonna be born in us via hearing his living words...My words are spirit and life much greater then written words...When he breathe on them he was propagating very God with his breath which was his seeds...His living words...He wants to impregnate this whole world with his precious seed Thats the only way our names can be written in the book of life...That N.C. in his blood....Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire...Thats the book of life in the fathers right hand that wrote with his own blood....The lake of fire is God himself....As our God is a consuming fire....There wd have been no need of a N.C. in his blood if the written word cd suffice.
I do agree with most of what you have written David0920. However, when Jesus spoke in parables, he knew his audience (even His disciples) could not grapple with spiritual Truth, hence His sharing simple stories about life that people could understand. This type of delivery should have caused them to hunger for more (of these stories), & some in whom a glimmer of light would arise, to attend more to the Lord's deeper messages to them.
But not all Scripture are given as parables, or with hidden deeper meanings. Where verses are clearly written metaphorically, or even not understood by us because of the time & place they reference, we should approach them carefully, keeping ourselves open to the Spirit for His help. Though, when you wrote, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", I would question that. True, as I wrote, some things are difficult, even to the most studied & skilled persons, but the essential Truths leading to salvation; of most historical events; & of holy living, should be easily read & discerned throughout the Bible. If not, then the Bible becomes meaningless, valueless & best to be shelved for good.
But if we're sensing some deeper hidden meaning in a Scripture, we should be careful that our other supporting Scriptures are not strained & twisted to suit our beliefs. I too have seen a lot of it here, maybe not what you're referring to, and stand amazed & distraught at what can be done to the pure Word of God.
I would also hasten to add that our salvation is not dependent upon our knowledge of the Bible.
Look at the salvation of the Ninevites. They had virtually no knowledge of the Word of God whatsoever. Jonah came to them with one message God will destroy you in 40 days. They recognized this as the Word of God, humbled themselves, and repented. Why? Because God was at work in their hearts to save them. Jonah 3.
Thanks David0920, I agree with what you've written - none can deny it - it is there in Scripture. But was wondering, as from your original statement, "Because of some of the comments I see here, I feel compelled to again state what the Bible declares regarding how we are to view and interpret the Bible."
From that I wasn't able to discern (by your quoting from Matthew chapter 13), whether your compulsion to bring up your concern was because of some who believe that the whole Bible has to be read as a parable (i.e. historical events that bring out another (deeper) spiritual meaning), or you were refuting such an interpretation. For me, when a parable is clearly given (as Jesus gave to the multitudes), it is a story with familiar events but those events & people represent a spiritual Truth of the Kingdom of God. Yet, some view not only Jesus' parables as such but the whole Bible being a parable, maybe taking an event as Noah planting a vineyard ( Genesis 9:20), that this act would have a deeper meaning, using some NT references such as Matthew chapters 20 & 21 to support their belief, which is incredible to my reading & understanding.
If you could clarify your position on this, I (& maybe others) would know the reason for your presentation, as your statement, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", was puzzling. Thank you.
I believe there is nothing more basic and important when studying scripture than how we approach the Bible. I tried to make clear my understanding and belief in my opening post to this thread. I did that because on this forum I see what appear to be varying understandings regarding this crucial matter. So let me again state what I believe the Bible teaches regarding this.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching we must start with two important principles:
1. The Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God.
2. We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture.
But there is, I believe, a third principle that is of very great importance if we are to realize most fully
the spiritual riches hidden within the Bible.
That principle is that the Bible ordinarily has more than one level of meaning. And these are:
1. The historical setting
2. The moral or spiritual teaching
3. The salvation account
This third level does indeed often involve parables and not only when God declares that a particular passage is a parable, but in many of the historical accounts throughout the Bible, which are absolutely accurate, and God use language, that when properly understood by allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter and dictionary, comparing scripture with scripture, God is teaching a deeper spiritual lesson that involves some aspect of the Gospel.
For example, all of the ceremonial laws in the Old Testament, while being laws that Israel was commanded to observe, were types and figures teaching something about the Nature of Salvation. The Book of Ruth, while being a beautiful love story, is dripping with the Gospel in nearly every verse as Ruth the Moabites, a cursed woman representing every believer before they are saved, is rescued by Boaz, a figure of Christ. And when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, this was a picture of salvation as we are all Dead in trespasses and sins and Christ does 100% of the work in bringing us to spiritual life.
Thank you David0920, I agree again with what you've shared here. And the examples you gave of Ruth & Lazarus do clearly illustrate the Gospel message or of our release of sin's deathly grip on our lives. Indeed, to other folk, there may be elements within those accounts that will leap out & speak to them in other ways, such as: faithfulness, devotion, singlemindedness, etc. To each one, the Spirit will speak & touch on those points from the Word that are most necessary for HIS Work to be carried out in their lives.
But also what interested me from your comment was your point 2, "We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture." Looking at that statement, who could disagree with you, as that is one of the primary ways of really understanding the biblical accounts, getting them in correct perspective & that which gives a fuller understanding of the Truth. But at the risk of offending some here, we often read comments such as a recent one: stating that the Lake of Fire "as being God Himself since God is a consuming fire" (here we get two Scriptures that reveal Truth: one referenced to Revelation 20:14 & the other to Hebrews 12:29). So now we get another example of someone showing his version of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture'. Is this then a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture? It is true, 'Fire' is common to both verses, but isn't the promise of an eternal Lake of Fire given to all "not found written in the book of life", rather than Fire being God Himself & by extension, God ridding the filth of all found there & finally saving them, as going through fire for cleansing? How we interpret this Truth can give totally opposite meanings which not only distorts the Word but leads the unlearned into confusion & a false understanding.
So this was the point I was making: that there is a correct method of comparing Scripture to Scripture, and I couldn't discern your position on this, or was it just a general post to all of us to correctly interpret the Bible?
I'm not altogether sure what you are asking here but let me, again, say this.
There is no question that we are to interpret the Bible by "comparing scripture with scripture". 1 Corinthians 2:13.
That means looking at both the immediate context of a verse, a phrase, or a word AND the larger context of the entire Bible.
When God speaks about "fire", I believe it is always referring in some way to the Judgment of God. This can be the Judgment of Satan and the unsaved on the Last Day, the Judgment that Christ endured for the True Believers, the condemnation that the Law of God imposes each time we commit sin, the Judgment on National Isreal, the Judgment on the Churches and Congregations, etc. It can be used in a very physical sense and / or a spiritual sense, and always, I believe, in relation to some aspect of the Gospel, which includes both God's Judgment and Mercy.
So again, we must look at BOTH, the IMMEDIATE context AND the context of the WHOLE, Bible, if we are going to come to truth about any passage in the Bible. And it is ultimately God Himself that must give us understanding.
Ok David0920, to take up the example of "God speaking about fire". Agreed, when God speaks of fire it inevitably applies to some sort of judgement from Him or a purifying work.
The point then, from your understanding, when 'Fire' is mentioned in Revelation 20:14,15, how do you interpret it? Is it a Fire of Judgement, or a Fire of eternal torment, or a Fire for all who've not obeyed God in faith and will be purified to be made acceptable & be saved, or only a spiritual Fire (i.e. not a literal Fire, therefore not an eternal one)? Sorry to put it to you in this way - I'm trying to establish what you mean by 'comparing Scripture with Scripture', because there are various interpretation methods used & many of them inconsistent with correct biblical hermeneutics, as you might have seen here, which has prompted you to raise this important matter.
And by this I mean, Fire is certainly shown in various portions of the Bible, but the word Fire can only be understood by the context it is found in (e.g. the fire that consumed bullock sacrifice in 1 Kings 18:19-40, is it the same fire in Revelation 20:14,15?). It may have exuded the same heat & power, but can we correlate it with anything other than the fire from God for the purpose of incinerating the sacrifice & nothing else? In such an example, we cannot make the two Scriptures fit together, though 'Fire' being the common word, nor can we force the meaning of other words to mean (or, apply) to other situations when the context is not the same.
I hope this Lord's Day finds you well. I appreciate your responses. I am not trying to evade answering your questions and will try address the two passages you reference as best I can in a separate post. But I will say upfront that I do not understand everything that God is teaching in either of these passages.
I do believe that the 1 Kings 18 passage you reference is an absolutely accurate account of the historical events that took place at that time. I also believe that God is teaching some moral and spiritual lessons that are directly evident from the historical event itself. But I am also certain that God has chosen to include this event in the Bible and has chosen precise words and phrases teaching some aspect of the Gospel, i.e. something about God's Judgment and Salvation Program. The latter is more difficult to understand and is where "comparing scripture with scripture" is essential in coming to truth because there is only one True Gospel and what ever conclusions we come to must agree with everything else that Bible has to say about the Gospel.
As far as Revelation 20 is concerned, that is much more difficult on all levels. The Book of Revelation is replete with types and figures and also is not necessarily chronological as we go from passage to passage. Not every passage is describing an event LITERALLY as it will occur. For example, we read of Christ coming on a white horse with a sword protruding from His mouth. Christ will not be returning on a literal white horse which I believe represents to power and purity of Christ Himself, and the sword is a reference to the Word of God which IS Christ Himself.
But I would like to turn the tables on you a bit, if I may, by asking you to describe the "Hermeneutic" that you believe we should be using as we interpret the Bible, along with some scriptures that address that view. I have tried to do exactly that for the Hermeneutic that I believe the Bible teaches in my previous posts.
Thanks for asking that good question David0920 concerning our understanding & use of correct biblical hermeneutics.
Biblical hermeneutics then, is the study of the principles and methods of correctly interpreting the text of the Bible. In 2 Timothy 2:15 we see this instruction to properly read & understand the Bible & this is the sole purpose of biblical hermeneutics.
1. The most important rule of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are used (as you shared about several accounts in The Revelation). The Bible says what it means and means what it says. For e.g., when Jesus spoke of having fed "the five thousand" ( Mark 8:19), the law of hermeneutics says we should understand five thousand literally: there was a crowd of hungry people that numbered five thousand who were fed with real bread and fish by a miracle-working Savior. Any attempt to "spiritualize" the number or to deny a literal miracle is to do injustice to the text and ignore the purpose of language, which is to communicate. Of course, there are lessons to be learned from that event, lessons which you mentioned, but before we arrive at those personal lessons & applications, we must ensure we actually understand what the Bible is saying & not replace words with other words, e.g. the fish or people to mean something else that God wants to tell us.
Some make the mistake of trying to read between the lines of Scripture to come up with esoteric meanings (i.e. only a special few are blessed to understand it), that are not really found in the text, as if every passage has a hidden spiritual truth that we should seek to decipher & then connect the dots. Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and prohibits our allegorizing Bible verses that ought to be understood literally.
Agreed, Chris. We need to understand what the text is actually saying/meaning/revealing in its plain meaning. Allegorizing every words, phrases, or verses as y9ou said is not only erroneous exegetics but also dangerous in that it leads to ideas, beliefs, and representations of God's Holy Word that were never intended and sometimes contrary to Scripture.
2. A second crucial rule of biblical hermeneutics is that passages must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. Interpreting a passage historically means we must first seek to understand the culture, background, and situation that prompted the writing. For example, in order to understand Jonah's flight, in Jonah 1:1-3, we should learn of the history of the Assyrians as it related to Israel.
Interpreting a passage grammatically requires one to follow the rules of grammar and recognize the nuances of Hebrew and Greek. For example, when Paul writes of "the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ" in Titus 2:13, the rules of grammar state that God and Savior are parallel terms and they are both in apposition to Jesus Christ; in other words, Paul clearly calls Jesus "our great God" & not identifying the two Persons separately in the Deity. Interpreting a passage contextually involves considering the context of a verse or passage when trying to determine the meaning. The context includes the verses immediately preceding and following it, the chapter, the book, and indeed the entire Bible. For example, many puzzling statements in Ecclesiastes become clearer when kept in context; the book of Ecclesiastes is written from the earthly perspective 'under the sun' ( Ecclesiastes 1:3). In fact, the phrase 'under the sun' is repeated many times in this book, establishing the context for all that is "vanity" in this world.
3. A third rule of biblical hermeneutics is that Scripture is always the best interpreter of Scripture (& this you believe & stated clearly). For this reason, we always compare Scripture with Scripture when trying to determine the meaning of a passage. For example, Isaiah's condemnation of Judah's desire to seek Egypt's help and their reliance on a strong cavalry ( Isaiah 31:1) was motivated, in part, by God's explicit command that His people not go to Egypt to seek horses ( Deuteronomy 17:16).
Therefore, I reiterate the three rules of Hermeneutics: a literal interpretation (unless a non-literal one is clearly called for); an historical, grammatical & contextual usage to understand the environment & language of that writing; & of course, using Scripture in other places within the Bible to help interpret the portion we're reading. Outside of this defined & confined meaning of 'biblical hermeneutics', we might open ourselves to erroneous understanding & teaching. If we believe that the Holy Spirit assists us in our understanding, then He would not disregard proper interpretative conventions, rather make that Scripture meaningful to us as well as applicable to our lives.
Then going back to our 'Lake of Fire' example, 'Fire' may be the common word that is seen, in say in 1 Kings 18:19-40 & in Revelation 20:14,15, but the whole context is very different between the two. Where 'fire' consumed the sacrifice on the altar in the one, & then in the other, 'fire' doesn't consume, but is eternal & tormenting (even as Jesus spoke of this in Mark 9:43-48). If we don't apply these rules, we can then make the Revelation account anything we want it to mean (or support our belief); such as being a fire of purification (purgatory), or only a spiritual (not actual) fire to demonstrate God's hatred of sin, but the soul be saved. If any of these (& other) interpretations are used, we in the first instance violate the proper understanding of the given Word & secondly, apply our own principles which ultimately makes the Word meaningless & worthless. The Holy Word is to be rigorously guarded from anything that would lead the reader to distraction & departure of the Truth.
So allow me to ask some specific questions, if I may.
Where in the Bible do you find the instruction that we are not to go beyond the a LITERAL account to find the underlying Gospel message?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL ceremonial Laws that the the Nation of Israel was commanded to obey?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of the Book of Ruth or Ester or Job
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL accounts of the raising of Lazarus from the dead and the other miracles that Jesus performed?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of 1 Kings 18?
If this is to be our Hermeneutic, we need to have a scriptural basis, don't you think?
Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.
Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.
There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.
I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.
Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.
Bro Chris love ya my man...But lemme give ya my slant on all the hermeneutics and exegesis in the world cd not open that book the new covenant in the right hand of the Father....John said i wept much b/c no one in heaven or earth cd open the book that Jesus wrote with his own blood....Remember that image in Daniel 2 had to be destroyed completely which is Churchanity....Thats y Paul was saying when that which is PERFECT is come ( the new covenant in his blood ) that which is done in part will be done away with...( Hermeneutics/Exegesis,..we see in part etc)....All the Hermeneutics and Exegesis of the world cd not open that book that was sealed by God himself with 7 seals....In Daniel 12:4...The woman cd not get pregnant till the book was opened simply b/c the contents of the book are the seeds of the sower the seeds/words of the bridegroom that is gonna initiate a birth of Christ in everybody ...The manchild in us Sinners....I will know them all from the least to the greatest... Jeremiah 31:34 kjv...She brought forth a manchild that is gonna rule all nations....Thats y Jesus was saying these things are HID ( sealed with 7 seals ) from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes and sucklings...The woman's Children the real H.G. the Children of Promise...As that which Is born of the spirit is spirit which is the spirit of truth the H.G...The manchild.. John 16:13
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
The ENTIRE Bible is the Word of God , it is full of the Gospel message in EVERY book . God has preserved His Word for our benefit . It is all about Jesus and the new covenant . If some people have not yet reached the stage of understanding that then that's ok , they will get there in God's good time . Meanwhile they should not be disparaging towards others and dismiss what they cannot yet appreciate . May God grant us all eyes and ears to see and hear Him everywhere in our lives and in the lives of others .
The historical-grammatical view is why some believe that the Old Testament is primarily for the Jews and the
New Testament is primarily for us today. So we should pay more attention to the New Testament than the Old. That is not taught in the Bible.
Also the Red Letter additions of the Bible are implying that the words the Jesus spoke are somehow more important, more the word of God, than the rest of the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And that God has a special salvation plan for the nation of Israel, for those of Jewish descent, than for other nationalities. That is not taught in the Bible.
The Bible alone and in its entirety is the word of God and is for us today.
What you expressed is pretty much what I expected. And I disagree with much of what you said as I'm sure you have gathered from my posts on the subject.
I do not find any declaration in scripture that supports the historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Although this is the approach that the New Testament churches have used for most of the Church Age as I understand.
This approach tries to determine what was in the mind of Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Jonah and what they were trying to express to their specific audience and culture. It unfortunately pushes to the side the fact that the Bible has ONE AUTHOR and that is God Himself. That Christ IS the WORD OF GOD. Every word and phrase in the Bible, in the original autographs, was chosen specifically by God Himself; not by the human scribe. And our goal is to discover what God Himself is teaching us; not Paul or Jeremiah or Luke. And we can and should be looking for how God used a word or a phrase in, for example, Jeremiah to understand a passage in Romans.
It also does not recognize that Christ spoke in parables and that WITHOUT A PARABLE SPOKE HE NOT. And this is not limited to those passages where He specifically declares that a passage is a parable. And that God speaks in parables to both REVEAL and HIDE truth. See the passages I have quoted previously.
So ultimately this is why God commands us to "compare scripture with scripture" to understand what God is teaching in a particular passage. And this includes both the IMMEDIATE context and the context of the ENTIRE Bible.
The Bible ALONE and it's ENTIRETY is the WORD OF GOD.
I'm sorry Ruby, I don't see the connection with what I wrote on this point of the "Lake of Fire" & what you wrote (quoting Scriptures), on the 'third part of....'. Revelation 8:7-12, for example, speaks about a third part of trees, grass, sea, fish, ships, rivers, waters, sun, moon & stars being affected at the opening of the seventh Seal, a time when the Wrath of God is poured upon the whole Earth.
Whereas the OT Scriptures you gave allude to Israel's captivity & suffering through it & their restoration (even a third part of them) when they will say "The LORD is my God". Israel is yet to be refined, as passing through God's Fire ( Zechariah 13:9), but it won't be through the Lake of Fire, reserved as the final judgement of eternal torment to all who reject God, where even death & hell will finally be destroyed ( Revelation 20:10-15).
The 'refining fires' of God can come to all us, according to His Will & Purposes for our lives, but at the end, only the Lake of Fire, unlike any other disciplinary measure, will be the ultimate ruin of wicked man & spirit. To make the Lake of Fire (& you haven't suggested this in your comment now), as a refining work to eventually restore all mankind to a state of full spiritual healing & bliss, is totally inconsistent to biblical teaching & correct hermeneutics.
Revelation 8:1 and when the seventh seal was opened, that was silence in heaven for half and hour
Symbolic of the 50 days from Passover to pentecost.
Many are called; FEW are chosen, Christ is the passover lamb, all will be saved from death and the grave, only the THIRD PART; have a part in the first resurrection, and never see death, and will be in the presence of God until the second resurrection, that time is the 1000 year reign, we join the other workers in the vineyard as we are called at different times of the day, the DAY OF THE LORD, now 2000 years. the 1000 are as a DAY.
God Bless YOU!
The spirit that was poured out on that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH
Psalms 60:7 ....Judah is my lawgiver ....his JUDGES ...
Psalms 108:8 ....Judah is my lawgiver ......
Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet .....
Very difficult for me to return comment on this one of yours Ruby, simply because I cannot see Revelation chapter 8, 'Jesus Who opened the seventh seal & silence in Heaven about the space of half an hour', has anything to do with the fifty days from Passover to Pentecost. How do you work that one out, especially when most of the Seal Judgements are yet to come (i.e. in the coming Great Tribulation)?
And "that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH", of course I've rejected by my other comment on Ezekiel chapter 5.
Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD PART (the called out) in the misdst of THE CITY, when the days of the SIEGE are FULFILLED
Chris you have to go back to Ezekiel chapter 4 to understand the SIEGE of Jerusalem, it's what made all the houses desolate, there was no activity of the Holy Spirit for 430 years.
Then Jesus came to Jerusalem, but they didn't understand, there houses (we are the house of Christ) were left unto them desolate, void of any understanding of the scriptures, because there was no spirit to interpret the scriptures for them, NO ONE UNDERSTOOD until PENECOSTE and the Spirit was poured out, now Jerusalem can understand, but it is not the OLD, it's the NEW JERUSALEM, the mother of us all.
Ezekiel 5:1-5 is talking about those that were chosen to have the Spirit CAUSE THEM ( Ezekiel 36:27) to come to the truth: Christ is calling out a priesthood of the house of JUDAH ( Zechariah 12:7) to JUDGE all those that will be RAISED at the second resurrection.
Ezekiel 5: ....thereof shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel ....
True, Ruby: "Prophecy can be inside actual historical events", & this is what this prophecy in Ezekiel was given to do. But how do we understand this chapter 5 prophecy?
The prophet was required to graphically demonstrate what would happen to Judah at the end stages of the Babylonian siege on Jerusalem. This was a prophecy to Judah to tell them what would come upon them & to provoke them to repentance. This demonstration by Ezekiel by cutting his hair in three parts plus one, showed them that a third would die in the city, a third probably in battle, & a third dragged into exile. So, these first five verses in Ezekiel chapter 5, are about the coming destruction & captivity, & only a few (vv 3,4) considered faithful, but still subject to suffering.
None of these "were chosen to have the Spirit to cause them to come to the truth" & none ever received Him since that time until Jesus opened the Door for Judah (& Israel), & gave them His Spirit when they turned to Him in faith, that their eyes might be opened.
Yet, Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Jesus, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" ( Revelation 1:7). Is then Ezekiel chapter 5 about a "fire coming forth INTO all the house of Israel"? I don't believe so. Rather, it's a fire going THROUGH the house of Judah (& Israel) as judgement for their many sins against the Holy One.
I agree with you; Ruth the Moabite, and God's people were commanded to have nothing to do with the Moabites, is a shadow and prophecy of God's salvation to ALL MEN; rolled inside of a historical event. God tells us NOT to do something and then SAVES US when we do it.
When you believe God's words he reveals himself to you, if you won't believe his words, you will never mature, and I can see you are maturing. Read the account of Jacob and the ladder; Genesis 28:11-22, Jacob being Christ, It is a perfect shadow and prophecy of Christ, inside a historical event, you probably have already reconised it.
John 1:51 ....hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the son of man .......
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34, 35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.
Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.
But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.
Thus the need for a New Covenant in the blood of Christ Jesus..For God has made us able ministers of the N.C. Not of the letter the written word but of the spirit the living Word... 2 Cor. 3:6...The letter kills but the Spirit gives life....The written word is a light, we need the written word...But the written word answers to the lesser light...But the living word is the greater light..Jesus said are there not 12 hrs in a day and 12 hrs in a nite...But if any man walk in the nite he will stumble...Bible only no living words the H.G....That Living being the H.G. that Child of Promise that has to be born in us...The N.C. Which is our new heart and new spirit....She brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations...Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...As peter said being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the words of God that LIVETH and ABIDETH for ever...The written word contains no such seeds....Where shall we go lord thou has the words of eternal life...My words are spirit. N.C.
.....The woman in Rev 12:5 has the testimony of Jesus which is the manchild the H.G. that he said wd bare witness of me....Its only the H.G. The manchild which is that spirit of truth that will rule all nations...Thats y he said these things are hid from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes and sucklings....which are that Israel of God the H.G (spirits) that are gonna be born in us via hearing his living words...My words are spirit and life much greater then written words...When he breathe on them he was propagating very God with his breath which was his seeds...His living words...He wants to impregnate this whole world with his precious seed Thats the only way our names can be written in the book of life...That N.C. in his blood....Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire...Thats the book of life in the fathers right hand that wrote with his own blood....The lake of fire is God himself....As our God is a consuming fire....There wd have been no need of a N.C. in his blood if the written word cd suffice.
But not all Scripture are given as parables, or with hidden deeper meanings. Where verses are clearly written metaphorically, or even not understood by us because of the time & place they reference, we should approach them carefully, keeping ourselves open to the Spirit for His help. Though, when you wrote, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", I would question that. True, as I wrote, some things are difficult, even to the most studied & skilled persons, but the essential Truths leading to salvation; of most historical events; & of holy living, should be easily read & discerned throughout the Bible. If not, then the Bible becomes meaningless, valueless & best to be shelved for good.
But if we're sensing some deeper hidden meaning in a Scripture, we should be careful that our other supporting Scriptures are not strained & twisted to suit our beliefs. I too have seen a lot of it here, maybe not what you're referring to, and stand amazed & distraught at what can be done to the pure Word of God.
Look at the salvation of the Ninevites. They had virtually no knowledge of the Word of God whatsoever. Jonah came to them with one message God will destroy you in 40 days. They recognized this as the Word of God, humbled themselves, and repented. Why? Because God was at work in their hearts to save them. Jonah 3.
Matt 12:41
From that I wasn't able to discern (by your quoting from Matthew chapter 13), whether your compulsion to bring up your concern was because of some who believe that the whole Bible has to be read as a parable (i.e. historical events that bring out another (deeper) spiritual meaning), or you were refuting such an interpretation. For me, when a parable is clearly given (as Jesus gave to the multitudes), it is a story with familiar events but those events & people represent a spiritual Truth of the Kingdom of God. Yet, some view not only Jesus' parables as such but the whole Bible being a parable, maybe taking an event as Noah planting a vineyard ( Genesis 9:20), that this act would have a deeper meaning, using some NT references such as Matthew chapters 20 & 21 to support their belief, which is incredible to my reading & understanding.
If you could clarify your position on this, I (& maybe others) would know the reason for your presentation, as your statement, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", was puzzling. Thank you.
I believe there is nothing more basic and important when studying scripture than how we approach the Bible. I tried to make clear my understanding and belief in my opening post to this thread. I did that because on this forum I see what appear to be varying understandings regarding this crucial matter. So let me again state what I believe the Bible teaches regarding this.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching we must start with two important principles:
1. The Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God.
2. We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture.
But there is, I believe, a third principle that is of very great importance if we are to realize most fully
the spiritual riches hidden within the Bible.
That principle is that the Bible ordinarily has more than one level of meaning. And these are:
1. The historical setting
2. The moral or spiritual teaching
3. The salvation account
This third level does indeed often involve parables and not only when God declares that a particular passage is a parable, but in many of the historical accounts throughout the Bible, which are absolutely accurate, and God use language, that when properly understood by allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter and dictionary, comparing scripture with scripture, God is teaching a deeper spiritual lesson that involves some aspect of the Gospel.
For example, all of the ceremonial laws in the Old Testament, while being laws that Israel was commanded to observe, were types and figures teaching something about the Nature of Salvation. The Book of Ruth, while being a beautiful love story, is dripping with the Gospel in nearly every verse as Ruth the Moabites, a cursed woman representing every believer before they are saved, is rescued by Boaz, a figure of Christ. And when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, this was a picture of salvation as we are all Dead in trespasses and sins and Christ does 100% of the work in bringing us to spiritual life.
But also what interested me from your comment was your point 2, "We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture." Looking at that statement, who could disagree with you, as that is one of the primary ways of really understanding the biblical accounts, getting them in correct perspective & that which gives a fuller understanding of the Truth. But at the risk of offending some here, we often read comments such as a recent one: stating that the Lake of Fire "as being God Himself since God is a consuming fire" (here we get two Scriptures that reveal Truth: one referenced to Revelation 20:14 & the other to Hebrews 12:29). So now we get another example of someone showing his version of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture'. Is this then a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture? It is true, 'Fire' is common to both verses, but isn't the promise of an eternal Lake of Fire given to all "not found written in the book of life", rather than Fire being God Himself & by extension, God ridding the filth of all found there & finally saving them, as going through fire for cleansing? How we interpret this Truth can give totally opposite meanings which not only distorts the Word but leads the unlearned into confusion & a false understanding.
So this was the point I was making: that there is a correct method of comparing Scripture to Scripture, and I couldn't discern your position on this, or was it just a general post to all of us to correctly interpret the Bible?
I'm not altogether sure what you are asking here but let me, again, say this.
There is no question that we are to interpret the Bible by "comparing scripture with scripture". 1 Corinthians 2:13.
That means looking at both the immediate context of a verse, a phrase, or a word AND the larger context of the entire Bible.
When God speaks about "fire", I believe it is always referring in some way to the Judgment of God. This can be the Judgment of Satan and the unsaved on the Last Day, the Judgment that Christ endured for the True Believers, the condemnation that the Law of God imposes each time we commit sin, the Judgment on National Isreal, the Judgment on the Churches and Congregations, etc. It can be used in a very physical sense and / or a spiritual sense, and always, I believe, in relation to some aspect of the Gospel, which includes both God's Judgment and Mercy.
So again, we must look at BOTH, the IMMEDIATE context AND the context of the WHOLE, Bible, if we are going to come to truth about any passage in the Bible. And it is ultimately God Himself that must give us understanding.
The point then, from your understanding, when 'Fire' is mentioned in Revelation 20:14,15, how do you interpret it? Is it a Fire of Judgement, or a Fire of eternal torment, or a Fire for all who've not obeyed God in faith and will be purified to be made acceptable & be saved, or only a spiritual Fire (i.e. not a literal Fire, therefore not an eternal one)? Sorry to put it to you in this way - I'm trying to establish what you mean by 'comparing Scripture with Scripture', because there are various interpretation methods used & many of them inconsistent with correct biblical hermeneutics, as you might have seen here, which has prompted you to raise this important matter.
And by this I mean, Fire is certainly shown in various portions of the Bible, but the word Fire can only be understood by the context it is found in (e.g. the fire that consumed bullock sacrifice in 1 Kings 18:19-40, is it the same fire in Revelation 20:14,15?). It may have exuded the same heat & power, but can we correlate it with anything other than the fire from God for the purpose of incinerating the sacrifice & nothing else? In such an example, we cannot make the two Scriptures fit together, though 'Fire' being the common word, nor can we force the meaning of other words to mean (or, apply) to other situations when the context is not the same.
I hope this Lord's Day finds you well. I appreciate your responses. I am not trying to evade answering your questions and will try address the two passages you reference as best I can in a separate post. But I will say upfront that I do not understand everything that God is teaching in either of these passages.
I do believe that the 1 Kings 18 passage you reference is an absolutely accurate account of the historical events that took place at that time. I also believe that God is teaching some moral and spiritual lessons that are directly evident from the historical event itself. But I am also certain that God has chosen to include this event in the Bible and has chosen precise words and phrases teaching some aspect of the Gospel, i.e. something about God's Judgment and Salvation Program. The latter is more difficult to understand and is where "comparing scripture with scripture" is essential in coming to truth because there is only one True Gospel and what ever conclusions we come to must agree with everything else that Bible has to say about the Gospel.
As far as Revelation 20 is concerned, that is much more difficult on all levels. The Book of Revelation is replete with types and figures and also is not necessarily chronological as we go from passage to passage. Not every passage is describing an event LITERALLY as it will occur. For example, we read of Christ coming on a white horse with a sword protruding from His mouth. Christ will not be returning on a literal white horse which I believe represents to power and purity of Christ Himself, and the sword is a reference to the Word of God which IS Christ Himself.
But I would like to turn the tables on you a bit, if I may, by asking you to describe the "Hermeneutic" that you believe we should be using as we interpret the Bible, along with some scriptures that address that view. I have tried to do exactly that for the Hermeneutic that I believe the Bible teaches in my previous posts.
Thanks for asking that good question David0920 concerning our understanding & use of correct biblical hermeneutics.
Biblical hermeneutics then, is the study of the principles and methods of correctly interpreting the text of the Bible. In 2 Timothy 2:15 we see this instruction to properly read & understand the Bible & this is the sole purpose of biblical hermeneutics.
1. The most important rule of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are used (as you shared about several accounts in The Revelation). The Bible says what it means and means what it says. For e.g., when Jesus spoke of having fed "the five thousand" ( Mark 8:19), the law of hermeneutics says we should understand five thousand literally: there was a crowd of hungry people that numbered five thousand who were fed with real bread and fish by a miracle-working Savior. Any attempt to "spiritualize" the number or to deny a literal miracle is to do injustice to the text and ignore the purpose of language, which is to communicate. Of course, there are lessons to be learned from that event, lessons which you mentioned, but before we arrive at those personal lessons & applications, we must ensure we actually understand what the Bible is saying & not replace words with other words, e.g. the fish or people to mean something else that God wants to tell us.
Some make the mistake of trying to read between the lines of Scripture to come up with esoteric meanings (i.e. only a special few are blessed to understand it), that are not really found in the text, as if every passage has a hidden spiritual truth that we should seek to decipher & then connect the dots. Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and prohibits our allegorizing Bible verses that ought to be understood literally.
2. A second crucial rule of biblical hermeneutics is that passages must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. Interpreting a passage historically means we must first seek to understand the culture, background, and situation that prompted the writing. For example, in order to understand Jonah's flight, in Jonah 1:1-3, we should learn of the history of the Assyrians as it related to Israel.
Interpreting a passage grammatically requires one to follow the rules of grammar and recognize the nuances of Hebrew and Greek. For example, when Paul writes of "the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ" in Titus 2:13, the rules of grammar state that God and Savior are parallel terms and they are both in apposition to Jesus Christ; in other words, Paul clearly calls Jesus "our great God" & not identifying the two Persons separately in the Deity. Interpreting a passage contextually involves considering the context of a verse or passage when trying to determine the meaning. The context includes the verses immediately preceding and following it, the chapter, the book, and indeed the entire Bible. For example, many puzzling statements in Ecclesiastes become clearer when kept in context; the book of Ecclesiastes is written from the earthly perspective 'under the sun' ( Ecclesiastes 1:3). In fact, the phrase 'under the sun' is repeated many times in this book, establishing the context for all that is "vanity" in this world.
3. A third rule of biblical hermeneutics is that Scripture is always the best interpreter of Scripture (& this you believe & stated clearly). For this reason, we always compare Scripture with Scripture when trying to determine the meaning of a passage. For example, Isaiah's condemnation of Judah's desire to seek Egypt's help and their reliance on a strong cavalry ( Isaiah 31:1) was motivated, in part, by God's explicit command that His people not go to Egypt to seek horses ( Deuteronomy 17:16).
Therefore, I reiterate the three rules of Hermeneutics: a literal interpretation (unless a non-literal one is clearly called for); an historical, grammatical & contextual usage to understand the environment & language of that writing; & of course, using Scripture in other places within the Bible to help interpret the portion we're reading. Outside of this defined & confined meaning of 'biblical hermeneutics', we might open ourselves to erroneous understanding & teaching. If we believe that the Holy Spirit assists us in our understanding, then He would not disregard proper interpretative conventions, rather make that Scripture meaningful to us as well as applicable to our lives.
Then going back to our 'Lake of Fire' example, 'Fire' may be the common word that is seen, in say in 1 Kings 18:19-40 & in Revelation 20:14,15, but the whole context is very different between the two. Where 'fire' consumed the sacrifice on the altar in the one, & then in the other, 'fire' doesn't consume, but is eternal & tormenting (even as Jesus spoke of this in Mark 9:43-48). If we don't apply these rules, we can then make the Revelation account anything we want it to mean (or support our belief); such as being a fire of purification (purgatory), or only a spiritual (not actual) fire to demonstrate God's hatred of sin, but the soul be saved. If any of these (& other) interpretations are used, we in the first instance violate the proper understanding of the given Word & secondly, apply our own principles which ultimately makes the Word meaningless & worthless. The Holy Word is to be rigorously guarded from anything that would lead the reader to distraction & departure of the Truth.
Part 3
So allow me to ask some specific questions, if I may.
Where in the Bible do you find the instruction that we are not to go beyond the a LITERAL account to find the underlying Gospel message?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL ceremonial Laws that the the Nation of Israel was commanded to obey?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of the Book of Ruth or Ester or Job
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL accounts of the raising of Lazarus from the dead and the other miracles that Jesus performed?
Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of 1 Kings 18?
If this is to be our Hermeneutic, we need to have a scriptural basis, don't you think?
Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.
Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.
There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.
I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.
Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
Part 2
To continue a bit.
The historical-grammatical view is why some believe that the Old Testament is primarily for the Jews and the
New Testament is primarily for us today. So we should pay more attention to the New Testament than the Old. That is not taught in the Bible.
Also the Red Letter additions of the Bible are implying that the words the Jesus spoke are somehow more important, more the word of God, than the rest of the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And that God has a special salvation plan for the nation of Israel, for those of Jewish descent, than for other nationalities. That is not taught in the Bible.
The Bible alone and in its entirety is the word of God and is for us today.
What you expressed is pretty much what I expected. And I disagree with much of what you said as I'm sure you have gathered from my posts on the subject.
I do not find any declaration in scripture that supports the historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Although this is the approach that the New Testament churches have used for most of the Church Age as I understand.
This approach tries to determine what was in the mind of Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Jonah and what they were trying to express to their specific audience and culture. It unfortunately pushes to the side the fact that the Bible has ONE AUTHOR and that is God Himself. That Christ IS the WORD OF GOD. Every word and phrase in the Bible, in the original autographs, was chosen specifically by God Himself; not by the human scribe. And our goal is to discover what God Himself is teaching us; not Paul or Jeremiah or Luke. And we can and should be looking for how God used a word or a phrase in, for example, Jeremiah to understand a passage in Romans.
It also does not recognize that Christ spoke in parables and that WITHOUT A PARABLE SPOKE HE NOT. And this is not limited to those passages where He specifically declares that a passage is a parable. And that God speaks in parables to both REVEAL and HIDE truth. See the passages I have quoted previously.
So ultimately this is why God commands us to "compare scripture with scripture" to understand what God is teaching in a particular passage. And this includes both the IMMEDIATE context and the context of the ENTIRE Bible.
The Bible ALONE and it's ENTIRETY is the WORD OF GOD.
In Revelation it is necessary to understand who the THIRD are, they are also killed in the lake of fire.
Revelation 8
Ezekiel 5:1-5
Ezekiel 5:12
Zechariah 13:8-9
Isaiah is full of a destroying fire, that you don't sit before to keep warm.
God Bless YOU
Whereas the OT Scriptures you gave allude to Israel's captivity & suffering through it & their restoration (even a third part of them) when they will say "The LORD is my God". Israel is yet to be refined, as passing through God's Fire ( Zechariah 13:9), but it won't be through the Lake of Fire, reserved as the final judgement of eternal torment to all who reject God, where even death & hell will finally be destroyed ( Revelation 20:10-15).
The 'refining fires' of God can come to all us, according to His Will & Purposes for our lives, but at the end, only the Lake of Fire, unlike any other disciplinary measure, will be the ultimate ruin of wicked man & spirit. To make the Lake of Fire (& you haven't suggested this in your comment now), as a refining work to eventually restore all mankind to a state of full spiritual healing & bliss, is totally inconsistent to biblical teaching & correct hermeneutics.
You quoted the scripture that said unbelievers were cast into the lake of fire.
I was trying to show you the scriptures that says the THIRD; BELIEVERS, are ALSO also cast into the lake of fire.
God Bless YOU!
A mish-mash of Scriptures about fire do not make a Scriptural truth. What you are saying her is not true and will not occur.
The seventh seal is the RESURRECTION.
Revelation 8:1 and when the seventh seal was opened, that was silence in heaven for half and hour
Symbolic of the 50 days from Passover to pentecost.
Many are called; FEW are chosen, Christ is the passover lamb, all will be saved from death and the grave, only the THIRD PART; have a part in the first resurrection, and never see death, and will be in the presence of God until the second resurrection, that time is the 1000 year reign, we join the other workers in the vineyard as we are called at different times of the day, the DAY OF THE LORD, now 2000 years. the 1000 are as a DAY.
God Bless YOU!
The spirit that was poured out on that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH
Psalms 60:7 ....Judah is my lawgiver ....his JUDGES ...
Psalms 108:8 ....Judah is my lawgiver ......
Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet .....
And "that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH", of course I've rejected by my other comment on Ezekiel chapter 5.
Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD PART (the called out) in the misdst of THE CITY, when the days of the SIEGE are FULFILLED
Chris you have to go back to Ezekiel chapter 4 to understand the SIEGE of Jerusalem, it's what made all the houses desolate, there was no activity of the Holy Spirit for 430 years.
Then Jesus came to Jerusalem, but they didn't understand, there houses (we are the house of Christ) were left unto them desolate, void of any understanding of the scriptures, because there was no spirit to interpret the scriptures for them, NO ONE UNDERSTOOD until PENECOSTE and the Spirit was poured out, now Jerusalem can understand, but it is not the OLD, it's the NEW JERUSALEM, the mother of us all.
Ezekiel 5:1-5 is talking about those that were chosen to have the Spirit CAUSE THEM ( Ezekiel 36:27) to come to the truth: Christ is calling out a priesthood of the house of JUDAH ( Zechariah 12:7) to JUDGE all those that will be RAISED at the second resurrection.
Ezekiel 5: ....thereof shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel ....
Prophecy can be inside actual historical events.
God Bless YOU!
The prophet was required to graphically demonstrate what would happen to Judah at the end stages of the Babylonian siege on Jerusalem. This was a prophecy to Judah to tell them what would come upon them & to provoke them to repentance. This demonstration by Ezekiel by cutting his hair in three parts plus one, showed them that a third would die in the city, a third probably in battle, & a third dragged into exile. So, these first five verses in Ezekiel chapter 5, are about the coming destruction & captivity, & only a few (vv 3,4) considered faithful, but still subject to suffering.
None of these "were chosen to have the Spirit to cause them to come to the truth" & none ever received Him since that time until Jesus opened the Door for Judah (& Israel), & gave them His Spirit when they turned to Him in faith, that their eyes might be opened.
Yet, Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Jesus, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" ( Revelation 1:7). Is then Ezekiel chapter 5 about a "fire coming forth INTO all the house of Israel"? I don't believe so. Rather, it's a fire going THROUGH the house of Judah (& Israel) as judgement for their many sins against the Holy One.
I agree with you; Ruth the Moabite, and God's people were commanded to have nothing to do with the Moabites, is a shadow and prophecy of God's salvation to ALL MEN; rolled inside of a historical event. God tells us NOT to do something and then SAVES US when we do it.
When you believe God's words he reveals himself to you, if you won't believe his words, you will never mature, and I can see you are maturing. Read the account of Jacob and the ladder; Genesis 28:11-22, Jacob being Christ, It is a perfect shadow and prophecy of Christ, inside a historical event, you probably have already reconised it.
John 1:51 ....hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the son of man .......
God Bless YOU!
Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34, 35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
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