Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Thank you Chris for your reply. I read your pages 2 times, I don't see anything to prove a return of Jesus in the clouds to gather together His church, or True Believers (before) the tribulation. Chris IF you knew that the time period of the great tribulation, and the wrath of God were completely different time periods. Would that change (anything) about your belief in, or how you see a pre-tribulation rapture? My belief is not just post-trib. Its post-trib, and pre-wrath. Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, the church after the tribulation (Mt.24:29-31) That same day the wrath of God is poured out on all non-believers left on the earth (Jn.3:36) I keep going back to Mt,24:29-31, these verses are almost in perfect alignment with 1.Thes.4:14-17. And then we have Rev.14:14-16, (which I don't think has even been mentioned yet) verse 14 says "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle". verse 15 says "for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe". Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, or His church one time only. That will start the wrath of God. If you read to the end of the Mt.Ch.24:48-51 it tells us what those left on the earth will deal with after the return of Christ. v.51 says "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (This would be the wrath of God, would it not?) If you read to the end of Rev.Ch.14 just after the Son of man (Jesus Christ) comes on a white cloud, for the harvest of the earth is ripe". (Wouldn't this harvest be when we are caught up to meet him in the air, in the clouds?) Rev.14:18-20 Just after the Son of man will harvest the earth, v.19 says "and cast it into the great winepress of THE WRATH OF GOD. (wrath comes After His return here also) Mt.24:29, "Immediately after" Thank you Chris
Thank you Jimbob for taking the time to pore through my submission, though I'm sorry that you weren't able to see what I see in the Scriptures. From the many other views we get on this subject, we see that we all can have our different Scriptures that show us how we should perceive these last days.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
Chris Again I really appreciate you replying. You have no need to be sorry, we do see scriptures in a different way, but Thank you Chris. A lot of how we see them is from what we have been taught in the past. I think you have agreed with that in one of your previous comments if I'm not mistaken. We all need to be completely openminded to Truth IF we expect to be lead by the Holy Spirit because the Word of God is Alive today. The proof of that is we can read the same scriptures many times and the Spirit will show us what He wants us to know from that scripture when He wants us to know it. We will never know it all, or have full understanding while in our flesh bodies. The Word Is Alive today! (Heb.4:12) Now I should say I'm sorry, but I have a few questions again if you don't mind answering them Chris. (1st question). What, or when could Rev.14:14-16 be, if its not the harvest of the church, which is what many call the rapture? (2nd question) Can you provide any verses that show the wrath of God is (included in) the great tribulation? I see them as being (totally different time periods) and have provided many scriptures to show they are not the same. (3rd question) Can you explain why Mt.24:29-31 and 1.Thes.4:16-17 have so many things in common, it looks like they are describing the same event (as the Lord descending from heaven (not coming to the earth), the coming in the clouds, the sound of a trumpet, and a gathering together) yet Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-17 which is the return of Christ riding a white horse do not have (any) of these things in common? Again if I'm not mistaken you believe Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-17 to be the same event? I do thank you for being so respectful Chris, it truly is a good thing to hear how others interpret these scriptures when we can have a discussion without disrespecting one another. I am thankful for that! May God Bless you Chris, and all those who seek His Truth in this group, and patiently await the return of our Lord!
I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).
So, to your three questions:
a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.
b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.
c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.
Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.
Now look at the chronological order here in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8."For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
"AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED", whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
This is the Holyspirit being removed and "then" the Antichrist shall be revealed!
The Holyspirit dwells in the body of believers unlike the way He worked and moved under the old covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and
Hebrews 10:16.
Mathew 28:18-20 says something interesting that we can tie into 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.
a) We're put into the body of believers "IDENTIFIED" With Christ.
Satan has ministers amongst us but Satan has no power over the Church!
Genesis 3:15. ( We are baptized into him that will bruise Satan's head.)
1 John 4:4. ( We have already overcome what's coming upon the world!)
Matthew 16:18. ( Gates in scripture is always used as defense. So who's on the offence and overcomes? The Church!! )
b) "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
WE ARE BAPTIZED IN CHRIST AND HE WILL NEVER LEAVE US.
Unlike Judaism the Church is not looking for their Messiah. .
We have him with and in us!!
The deception performed by the Antichrist is one coming as their Messiah, and he will deceive many!!
That can't happen while the Church is in the world.
Thank you bro. S. Spencer for your kind words, yet I'm hoping that with the volume of comments shared here, we can all learn from each other, but not in a way to demean anyone by displaying airs of superiority, but to appreciate one's beliefs from their point of understanding the Scriptures & how they should fit together. We might have a completely different understanding, but there's joy in just being able to examine the Word of God together & still know that our salvation is secure in Heaven in spite of our differences. I rarely can get into this type of discussion depth with Church members, so this Site is very special & precious to me to connect with others of like-minded interest & purpose. Personally, I've found this thread very useful & engaging both my mind & spirit & appreciate the sincerity & concern that Jimbob has for each one of us & our growth in knowledge.
To your post then: the problem that is raised here, & even posed to you by Jimbob, is 'how do we know that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit & not someone or something else, since a name is not given?' The Thessalonians knew exactly what Paul was referring to, but we're kept in the dark & guessing. In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the translators have used the pronoun, 'he', though not specifically seen in the Greek, but it seems implied, even as other translations reveal. Various suggestions have been given, such as the Holy Spirit/the Church, human government or another entity that somehow comes in the way of anti-Christ's appearing.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:5. "the restrainer" is in neuter gender in grk , and in 2 Thess. 2:7 it is masculine. So it is both "it" and "he" (what is it in the Bible that it is both "it" and "he"?). Its precise meaning is "He(it) who has in his(its) possession", (grk "o/to katechon")
My opinion is that it is not something we can not think of, in such a case God would have revealed it to us. So it is something we can come to by studying the Scriptures. I too believe that It (He) is the Holly Spirit. "The Holly Spirit" who has in His possession the "church". There can be nothing else that makes sence.
Thanks brother Giannis. I also noticed that in the Greek Lexicon but didn't want to take my comment to that detail; as well, in my ignorance of the language, I was unsure why the two genders were being used in verses pertaining to the same person. But you see that both the Holy Spirit & the Church (the 'he' and 'it') are reflected in those verses. Thanks very much for that clarification.
Firstly the grk for "church" which is "ekklesia" is of feminine gender, in grk the church is a "she".
In 2 Thess 2:6 the word "to katechon" is written in the grk, it is translated in Engl. as "what withholdeth", it's exact meaning is "it that posseses" and it may imply "it that withholds/hinders". Iit is of neuter gender ( in grk the gender is obvious from the particle used, also from the spelling of the word).
In the following verse 2 Thess 2:7 the word "o katechon" is used instead. It is translated as " he who now letterth will let". It's exact meaning is " he who possesses or he who withholds/hinders". This time a masculine gender is used for the same thing that is also mentioned in the previous verse.
So 2 different genders are used for the same thing, "it" and "he". There is only one thing in the Bible that two genders are used for the same thing. It is the Holly Spirit, it is a spirit so it is "it", but also it is a person hence the "he".
Last, when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist. The Spirit came to the church on Pentecost and goes with the Rapture of the church . It is He who is going to resurrect our bodies and hand us to Jesus in the sky, Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." GBU
Thanks brother Giannis. Thanks for the clarification on this matter. Very helpful.
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
In this comment you referenced 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Several things about this verse, which must be read in the context of the entire chapter...
First, the word "way" at the end of the verse is the Greek word "mesos". It is found in the Bible 61 times. And 41 times in the KJV it is translated "midst". Also the word "letteth" is an Old English word meaning to "hold down or restrain".
So perhaps a better translation in today's language of the verse would be...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now "restraineth will restrain", until he be taken out of the "midst".
So who is the "he" in this verse? I would suggest that in this verse, when read in the context of the entire chapter and the context of the entire Bible, that "he" is "God the Holy Spirit".
So what this verse and in fact the entire is chapter is teaching is this... That during the Church Age, when Satan has been bound ( Rev 20:2,3), God the Holy Spirit resides in the midst of the churches and is restraining the activity of Satan within the churches as that gospel is proclaimed from the churches to the world. But there will come a time when God's Judgement comes upon the churches ( 1 Pet 4:17), as it did upon National Israel, and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the midst of the churches and Satan will be installed to rule there ( 1 Thessalonians 2:4).
This I believe occurred at the beginning of the Great Tribulation which is the day in which we are living. And for this reason God has commanded True Believers to come out of the churches ( Matt 24:16,17) where God is working outside of the churches to save a "great multitude which no man can number".
My thinking is that anti-Christ is the personification of all things evil, even as Satan incarnate. Human govt might at the beginning oppose any threat to their existence & power by some foreign entity & so will give initial resistance. But if that devilish outcrop comes from within the govt framework, say a leader from an alliance of nations thus being more acceptable, then any opposing force cannot be from a human origin but from a spiritual origin. And since, we're seeing Satan being given free rein, when once the Holy Spirit's Presence in the Church was prohibiting him, it seems almost certain that only after the Spirit's removal can anti-Christ/the satanic govt make their entrance. And we know that the Holy Spirit does not move within the world but within those who belong to Jesus ( 1 John 4:4). But first, there must be a falling away (v3) - a sad indictment against the Church (or, the false representation of it) when even God's Presence is no longer required, loved or preached. Blessings brother & nice to see you back - you've been missed.
I am convinced that we can only understand the anti-Christ as being Satan himself, as he comes looking like Christ, as the Bible declares that he does.
Christians throughout the centuries have tried to identify a human being who is essentially controlled by Satan as the antichrist. Like, perhaps Alexander the great. In recent times it has been Hitler or Stalin, or some other political figure. That idea will not comport with what the Bible teaches about the antichrist when we look at every verse carefully.
I am convinced that we can only understand what God is teaching when we come to realize that God here is not talking about political nations in any sense. He is talking about the spiritual battle that is constantly going on between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. It is a spiritual battle. It is not a physical political battle in any sense.
David0920. The anti-Christ certainly gives every resemblance of Satan himself. But to use those principles of Hermeneutics I hold to (that of literal, contextual, & Scripture with Scripture rules), I note in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (he is called the 'man of sinson of perdition'); and verse 9 (anti-Christ appears on the scene 'doing the works of Satan'). The wording & context itself suggests strongly that this is a person, not Satan, but given all the powers of that wicked one that virtually makes him Satan incarnate.
I agree, that essentially this is a battle in the spiritual realm, even as the enemy of our souls comes against Christ & all who've chosen not to obey Satan, but here we see a physical representation, if you will, of Satan; one raised for this final onslaught, "whom the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his coming", the one called "the beast & his false prophet" ( Revelation 19:20) finally cast into the Lake of Fire. And then "the dragon, that old serpent (of olden times), which is the Devil and Satan, will be bound a thousand years" ( Revelation 20:2). I believe these verses should convince us that three separate persons filled with evil are being revealed here but all hold to that foul & wicked spirit.
I know I'm being repetitive here. But for that I'm not apologizing because there is a principle that I think few recognize and apply.
And that is Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not.
I am saying this, Chris, not because I am wiser than anyone else and discovered this principle on my own. But I was very fortunate to have listened for a long time to a faithful Bible teacher that taught this. Once understood, and very very carefully applied I might add, causes many many passages in the scripture, which seem to make no sense at all, or are exceptionally difficult to understand, open up tremendously. And it also has the effect of absolutely confirming over and over again that the Bible truly is the WORD OF GOD, Himself.
David 0920. Yes indeed, "Christ spoke in parables" to the multitudes, and He did so for a particular reason: Matthew 13:13-15,35. I realize that there is a point that you're aiming for here, so I won't proceed with this unless you wish to develop it. But to state at the outset, what Jesus shared with the people in parables (earthly stories with a kingdom principle) cannot be related to everything (or, most things) that the Bible declares. A parable has a specific meaning & format. But clear literal statements of persons, events, or Kingdom living cannot be admitted as parables. Even the OT mention of 'parables', holds a different meaning to what we read of Jesus' Words. Metaphors or allegories are employed throughout the Scriptures, but even these are clearly discerned & are not parables. I'll stop here; I assume that the Bible teacher you referred to hasn't got his messages on this subject, on the Web - I would like to listen to his take on this.
There really isn't much more that I can add to what I've already said on the matter at this point.
My hope is that, if nothing else, this whole discussion has caused some, including myself, to carefully examine our approach to the Bible in the light of what the Bible declares.
The Bible alone and in its entirety must be our authority.
S Spencer Would you mind answering a few questions? You posted, Now look at the chronological order in 2.Thes.2:7-8 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 'AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED" whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Then you said "This is the Holyspirit being removed and "then" the Antichrist shall be revealed. (1st) question. Nothing written in these verses say the Holy Spirit is removed , so if one cannot provide verses as proof, Is it not (assuming) the Holy Spirit is removed?) You said "The deception performed by the Antichrist is one coming as their Messiah, and he will deceive many." The antichrist WILL DECEIVE MANY, (2nd) question. If the Holy Spirit and ALL Believers are taken from the earth, Who would be left to be deceived? only non-believers would be left on the earth and they were already deceived or they would not have been left on the earth. (3rd) question. Why do almost all believers in the pre-tribulation rapture never talk about 2.Thes.2:1-4? (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. (The subject here is the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him) v.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for ((that day shall not come)), except there come ((a falling away first)), ((and that man of sin [be revealed], the son of perdition)). (That man of sin, the son of perdition ((is the antichrist)) and he ((WILL BE REVEALED)) ((before)) the day of the Lord comes and our gathering together unto Him. The first 4 verses say the antichrist will be revealed before the return of Jesus! Then in verse 7, it has to be assumed its speaking of the Holy Spirit being removed with zero scripture to back that up. These verses prove the opposite of pre-tribulation is true when read in context. Thanks for your reply Spencer.
Thanks for responding and sorry for such a delay on my response back. I normally can't engage until the weekend due to my work schedule.
Here's my view on this.
We are the light of the world, (The oil filled Lamps.)
In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5. we see this light mentioned in the believers in connection with the Day of the Lord. (As already established; "Not to be mistaken for the tribulation! but what is interesting is "If" the Holyspirit is taken out of the way/Removed and no longer restraining, then the children of light would become as those who sleep in the night!
He that comforts us, enlighten us and keeps us is no longer doing it and by nature we love Darkness. John 3:19.
Jesus says he will never leave us comfortless. John 14:16-20.
John 15:19. Because of this verse we should see it is not a worldly entity that desires or even capable of restraining evil.
We have three enemies that pushes back against Holiness, Our flesh, the world and the prince of the two, "Satan"
We have one source that empowers, but yet "PERMITS" That's the Holyspirit. We see the involvement and power of the Holyspirit shepherding his Church against these three enemies.
Romans 8:9-15. (The flesh)
1 John 4:4. (Satan)
John 14:16-20. (The World.).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The subject here is the Thessalonians thought the day of the Lord was at hand! Paul says that day shall not come, except there come a apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed. Paul goes on to say; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
He is refering to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He is reminding them.
By the context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, they knew the order of events Paul was telling them. 1st The rapture. 2nd The man of sin revealed. 3rd the day of the Lord. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
The Church is removed and the Holyspirit operates as it did in the Old Testament.
I do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture, but of the 2nd coming of Jesus on the Day of the Lord. It says that this coming of Jesus (referred to as the Day of the Lord in chapter 5:1-2) will be with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet. This is the last trump spoken of in Rev. 10:7: Rev. 11:15 and in 1 Cor. 15:52, and in Matt.24:31. These passages are all speaking of the final trumpet sounding at the return of Jesus AFTER the tribulation.
Those who espouse a pre trib "secret" rapture have to make assumptions about the Thess. passage to support this theory as it is not plainly taught in Scripture. But the second coming (not third) on the Day of the Lord and the gathering of His people is plainly taught. That is why I do not ascribe to the pre-trib rapture theory but to the "rapture" of the church at the end of this age at Jesus' second (and only return). The Scriptures do NOT speak of any coming between His ascension and His second coming (which would be His third coming according to pre-trib theory).
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. is where supporters of Pre-trib, Mid-trib, and Post-trib get " Rapture" from.
16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
There's no questioning of the rapture between the 3 groups in verse 17.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (PRECEDED) them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Rapture can only occur at the time of the Resurrection. So when will the Resurrection occur? Read John 6
Four times in John 6 God declares the Resurrection is the Last Day. The Last Day is Judgment Day.
The Rapture, the Resurrection, and Judgment Day are the LAST DAY.
David0920 Thats a good point David, that is the truth! Also any verse that speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds is the resurrection, or what's called the rapture.
Dear S. Spencer, thanks for your reply. I agree that believers will be "raptured" in the way described in Scripture.
But the Scriptures do not speak of a 'Secret' rapture, nor of a 'semi' coming before the second coming at the end of the age. Also, the Scriptures make it plain that ALL of the saints from the beginning of time until the end of history will be raised or translated. And, the Scriptures all describe this gathering of the saints unto Jesus as happening at the end of the time of tribulation.
I realize that we disagree as to the when. I will say that I am thoroughly convinced of my understanding on this. But it is fine for you to respond further. I just do not wish to go back and forth a lot on this subject. It has been one of the main topics on this forum lately and I do think that there are more important topics to discuss having to do with who God is, how we are saved, and what our life in Christ entails.
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
You said that it is 2 Thessalonians 4 where dispensationalists find the doctrine of the rapture. I interpret that as the second coming after the tribulation.
You said that one cannot hang a doctrine on one verse, but here you admitted to doing so.
I have considered the dispensational viewpoint from many angles Scripturally and cannot attest to it being true.
I have read the Scriptures fairly thoroughly about the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints and conclude that He comes after the tribulation and gathers ALL saints at this time, not at a pre-trib rapture and then gathers more at s coming in the clouds after the tribulation and then gathers again those from the millennial reign.
I just don't think the Scriptures teach this anywhere. But I can find many Scriptures that say that Jesus comes again (once) after tribulation and then gathers the saints. I posted some Scriptures in my previous post. So, I do not hang my doctrine on one verse in Scripture.
I was responding to an earlier reply of yours when you said there's no rapture verse in the Bible.
I believe I gave you verse
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"
I didn't say it was a dispensational view.
It's a rapture verse used by Post and Pre-trib groups.
The debate issue is when it happens not if!
And that don't define dispensational as you say it do.
We're all saved by one way. Christ!
No matter the time period.
However We're not gathered with Israel as a Nation.
Paul makes that clear in Romans.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness "IN PART" is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ( That means temporarily Gigi )
Now here's a difficult verse that troubles most people.
Romans 11:26-27. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Paul is talking about his Kinsman of the flesh!
The Nation, when he take away their blindness.
Has the "Nation" turned to Christ? No.
Will they turn to Christ? Yes.
When? During the tribulation. "70 of Daniel"
THE TRIBULATION CENTERS AROUND ISRAEL.
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge THEIR OFFENCE, and seek my face: IN THEIR AFFLICTION they will seek me early. Hosea 5:15.
THEIR OFFENCE IS REJECTING CHRIST!
He'll come when they call on him.
Matthew 23:39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
I don't recall saying that there is not rapture in Scripture. I may have said that there is no pre-trib rapture plainly spoken of in the Scripture.
It is funny that you would say that the rapture can be pre or post trib. A while ago when I spoke of the rapture being described by Jesus in Matt. 24, you plainly said that that was not the rapture
I am kind of done with this discussion on the rapture, the millennium, and dispensationalism. People can take what I have said and check it to Scripture and think for themselves. Just as I do when someone else posts their thoughts.
I certainly do not expect people to accept what I say straight . I hope that what I post will stimulate of challenge someone to find out more for themselves.
Have a good night's sleep. It is late here again. I hope I can get to snooze level soon tonight.
I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.
I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.
And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
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Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).
So, to your three questions:
a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.
b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.
c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.
Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.
Now look at the chronological order here in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8."For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
"AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED", whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
This is the Holyspirit being removed and "then" the Antichrist shall be revealed!
The Holyspirit dwells in the body of believers unlike the way He worked and moved under the old covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 and
Hebrews 10:16.
Mathew 28:18-20 says something interesting that we can tie into 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.
a) We're put into the body of believers "IDENTIFIED" With Christ.
Satan has ministers amongst us but Satan has no power over the Church!
Genesis 3:15. ( We are baptized into him that will bruise Satan's head.)
1 John 4:4. ( We have already overcome what's coming upon the world!)
Matthew 16:18. ( Gates in scripture is always used as defense. So who's on the offence and overcomes? The Church!! )
b) "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
WE ARE BAPTIZED IN CHRIST AND HE WILL NEVER LEAVE US.
Unlike Judaism the Church is not looking for their Messiah. .
We have him with and in us!!
The deception performed by the Antichrist is one coming as their Messiah, and he will deceive many!!
That can't happen while the Church is in the world.
1 John 2:20-28.
Thanks Brother!
We're learning a lot from your teachings.
God bless you.
Thank you bro. S. Spencer for your kind words, yet I'm hoping that with the volume of comments shared here, we can all learn from each other, but not in a way to demean anyone by displaying airs of superiority, but to appreciate one's beliefs from their point of understanding the Scriptures & how they should fit together. We might have a completely different understanding, but there's joy in just being able to examine the Word of God together & still know that our salvation is secure in Heaven in spite of our differences. I rarely can get into this type of discussion depth with Church members, so this Site is very special & precious to me to connect with others of like-minded interest & purpose. Personally, I've found this thread very useful & engaging both my mind & spirit & appreciate the sincerity & concern that Jimbob has for each one of us & our growth in knowledge.
To your post then: the problem that is raised here, & even posed to you by Jimbob, is 'how do we know that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit & not someone or something else, since a name is not given?' The Thessalonians knew exactly what Paul was referring to, but we're kept in the dark & guessing. In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the translators have used the pronoun, 'he', though not specifically seen in the Greek, but it seems implied, even as other translations reveal. Various suggestions have been given, such as the Holy Spirit/the Church, human government or another entity that somehow comes in the way of anti-Christ's appearing.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:5. "the restrainer" is in neuter gender in grk , and in 2 Thess. 2:7 it is masculine. So it is both "it" and "he" (what is it in the Bible that it is both "it" and "he"?). Its precise meaning is "He(it) who has in his(its) possession", (grk "o/to katechon")
My opinion is that it is not something we can not think of, in such a case God would have revealed it to us. So it is something we can come to by studying the Scriptures. I too believe that It (He) is the Holly Spirit. "The Holly Spirit" who has in His possession the "church". There can be nothing else that makes sence.
Maybe I was not clear in my post.
Firstly the grk for "church" which is "ekklesia" is of feminine gender, in grk the church is a "she".
In 2 Thess 2:6 the word "to katechon" is written in the grk, it is translated in Engl. as "what withholdeth", it's exact meaning is "it that posseses" and it may imply "it that withholds/hinders". Iit is of neuter gender ( in grk the gender is obvious from the particle used, also from the spelling of the word).
In the following verse 2 Thess 2:7 the word "o katechon" is used instead. It is translated as " he who now letterth will let". It's exact meaning is " he who possesses or he who withholds/hinders". This time a masculine gender is used for the same thing that is also mentioned in the previous verse.
So 2 different genders are used for the same thing, "it" and "he". There is only one thing in the Bible that two genders are used for the same thing. It is the Holly Spirit, it is a spirit so it is "it", but also it is a person hence the "he".
Last, when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist. The Spirit came to the church on Pentecost and goes with the Rapture of the church . It is He who is going to resurrect our bodies and hand us to Jesus in the sky, Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." GBU
GBU
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
In this comment you referenced 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Several things about this verse, which must be read in the context of the entire chapter...
First, the word "way" at the end of the verse is the Greek word "mesos". It is found in the Bible 61 times. And 41 times in the KJV it is translated "midst". Also the word "letteth" is an Old English word meaning to "hold down or restrain".
So perhaps a better translation in today's language of the verse would be...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now "restraineth will restrain", until he be taken out of the "midst".
So who is the "he" in this verse? I would suggest that in this verse, when read in the context of the entire chapter and the context of the entire Bible, that "he" is "God the Holy Spirit".
So what this verse and in fact the entire is chapter is teaching is this... That during the Church Age, when Satan has been bound ( Rev 20:2,3), God the Holy Spirit resides in the midst of the churches and is restraining the activity of Satan within the churches as that gospel is proclaimed from the churches to the world. But there will come a time when God's Judgement comes upon the churches ( 1 Pet 4:17), as it did upon National Israel, and the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the midst of the churches and Satan will be installed to rule there ( 1 Thessalonians 2:4).
This I believe occurred at the beginning of the Great Tribulation which is the day in which we are living. And for this reason God has commanded True Believers to come out of the churches ( Matt 24:16,17) where God is working outside of the churches to save a "great multitude which no man can number".
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My thinking is that anti-Christ is the personification of all things evil, even as Satan incarnate. Human govt might at the beginning oppose any threat to their existence & power by some foreign entity & so will give initial resistance. But if that devilish outcrop comes from within the govt framework, say a leader from an alliance of nations thus being more acceptable, then any opposing force cannot be from a human origin but from a spiritual origin. And since, we're seeing Satan being given free rein, when once the Holy Spirit's Presence in the Church was prohibiting him, it seems almost certain that only after the Spirit's removal can anti-Christ/the satanic govt make their entrance. And we know that the Holy Spirit does not move within the world but within those who belong to Jesus ( 1 John 4:4). But first, there must be a falling away (v3) - a sad indictment against the Church (or, the false representation of it) when even God's Presence is no longer required, loved or preached. Blessings brother & nice to see you back - you've been missed.
I am convinced that we can only understand the anti-Christ as being Satan himself, as he comes looking like Christ, as the Bible declares that he does.
Christians throughout the centuries have tried to identify a human being who is essentially controlled by Satan as the antichrist. Like, perhaps Alexander the great. In recent times it has been Hitler or Stalin, or some other political figure. That idea will not comport with what the Bible teaches about the antichrist when we look at every verse carefully.
I am convinced that we can only understand what God is teaching when we come to realize that God here is not talking about political nations in any sense. He is talking about the spiritual battle that is constantly going on between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. It is a spiritual battle. It is not a physical political battle in any sense.
I agree, that essentially this is a battle in the spiritual realm, even as the enemy of our souls comes against Christ & all who've chosen not to obey Satan, but here we see a physical representation, if you will, of Satan; one raised for this final onslaught, "whom the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his coming", the one called "the beast & his false prophet" ( Revelation 19:20) finally cast into the Lake of Fire. And then "the dragon, that old serpent (of olden times), which is the Devil and Satan, will be bound a thousand years" ( Revelation 20:2). I believe these verses should convince us that three separate persons filled with evil are being revealed here but all hold to that foul & wicked spirit.
Thank you for your response.
I know I'm being repetitive here. But for that I'm not apologizing because there is a principle that I think few recognize and apply.
And that is Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not.
I am saying this, Chris, not because I am wiser than anyone else and discovered this principle on my own. But I was very fortunate to have listened for a long time to a faithful Bible teacher that taught this. Once understood, and very very carefully applied I might add, causes many many passages in the scripture, which seem to make no sense at all, or are exceptionally difficult to understand, open up tremendously. And it also has the effect of absolutely confirming over and over again that the Bible truly is the WORD OF GOD, Himself.
There really isn't much more that I can add to what I've already said on the matter at this point.
My hope is that, if nothing else, this whole discussion has caused some, including myself, to carefully examine our approach to the Bible in the light of what the Bible declares.
The Bible alone and in its entirety must be our authority.
Jesus spoke plenty not in parables, like i thirst. This is literal, not a metaphor.
Not sure your intent about the Bible is Jesus. The Word is a metaphor, Jesus is not a physical book. Sounds like some new age stuff to me.
Thanks for responding and sorry for such a delay on my response back. I normally can't engage until the weekend due to my work schedule.
Here's my view on this.
We are the light of the world, (The oil filled Lamps.)
In 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5. we see this light mentioned in the believers in connection with the Day of the Lord. (As already established; "Not to be mistaken for the tribulation! but what is interesting is "If" the Holyspirit is taken out of the way/Removed and no longer restraining, then the children of light would become as those who sleep in the night!
He that comforts us, enlighten us and keeps us is no longer doing it and by nature we love Darkness. John 3:19.
Jesus says he will never leave us comfortless. John 14:16-20.
John 15:19. Because of this verse we should see it is not a worldly entity that desires or even capable of restraining evil.
We have three enemies that pushes back against Holiness, Our flesh, the world and the prince of the two, "Satan"
We have one source that empowers, but yet "PERMITS" That's the Holyspirit. We see the involvement and power of the Holyspirit shepherding his Church against these three enemies.
Romans 8:9-15. (The flesh)
1 John 4:4. (Satan)
John 14:16-20. (The World.).
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. The subject here is the Thessalonians thought the day of the Lord was at hand! Paul says that day shall not come, except there come a apostasy first, and that man of sin be revealed. Paul goes on to say; Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
He is refering to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He is reminding them.
By the context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, they knew the order of events Paul was telling them. 1st The rapture. 2nd The man of sin revealed. 3rd the day of the Lord. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
The Church is removed and the Holyspirit operates as it did in the Old Testament.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 parallels with Matthew 24:15.
GB.
I do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture, but of the 2nd coming of Jesus on the Day of the Lord. It says that this coming of Jesus (referred to as the Day of the Lord in chapter 5:1-2) will be with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet. This is the last trump spoken of in Rev. 10:7: Rev. 11:15 and in 1 Cor. 15:52, and in Matt.24:31. These passages are all speaking of the final trumpet sounding at the return of Jesus AFTER the tribulation.
Those who espouse a pre trib "secret" rapture have to make assumptions about the Thess. passage to support this theory as it is not plainly taught in Scripture. But the second coming (not third) on the Day of the Lord and the gathering of His people is plainly taught. That is why I do not ascribe to the pre-trib rapture theory but to the "rapture" of the church at the end of this age at Jesus' second (and only return). The Scriptures do NOT speak of any coming between His ascension and His second coming (which would be His third coming according to pre-trib theory).
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. is where supporters of Pre-trib, Mid-trib, and Post-trib get " Rapture" from.
16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
There's no questioning of the rapture between the 3 groups in verse 17.
The debate has always been when.
God bless.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (PRECEDED) them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Rapture can only occur at the time of the Resurrection. So when will the Resurrection occur? Read John 6
Four times in John 6 God declares the Resurrection is the Last Day. The Last Day is Judgment Day.
The Rapture, the Resurrection, and Judgment Day are the LAST DAY.
But the Scriptures do not speak of a 'Secret' rapture, nor of a 'semi' coming before the second coming at the end of the age. Also, the Scriptures make it plain that ALL of the saints from the beginning of time until the end of history will be raised or translated. And, the Scriptures all describe this gathering of the saints unto Jesus as happening at the end of the time of tribulation.
I realize that we disagree as to the when. I will say that I am thoroughly convinced of my understanding on this. But it is fine for you to respond further. I just do not wish to go back and forth a lot on this subject. It has been one of the main topics on this forum lately and I do think that there are more important topics to discuss having to do with who God is, how we are saved, and what our life in Christ entails.
I was responding to you saying
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
Thanks in advance and God bless.
You said that it is 2 Thessalonians 4 where dispensationalists find the doctrine of the rapture. I interpret that as the second coming after the tribulation.
You said that one cannot hang a doctrine on one verse, but here you admitted to doing so.
I have considered the dispensational viewpoint from many angles Scripturally and cannot attest to it being true.
I have read the Scriptures fairly thoroughly about the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints and conclude that He comes after the tribulation and gathers ALL saints at this time, not at a pre-trib rapture and then gathers more at s coming in the clouds after the tribulation and then gathers again those from the millennial reign.
I just don't think the Scriptures teach this anywhere. But I can find many Scriptures that say that Jesus comes again (once) after tribulation and then gathers the saints. I posted some Scriptures in my previous post. So, I do not hang my doctrine on one verse in Scripture.
I was responding to an earlier reply of yours when you said there's no rapture verse in the Bible.
I believe I gave you verse
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"
I didn't say it was a dispensational view.
It's a rapture verse used by Post and Pre-trib groups.
The debate issue is when it happens not if!
And that don't define dispensational as you say it do.
We're all saved by one way. Christ!
No matter the time period.
However We're not gathered with Israel as a Nation.
Paul makes that clear in Romans.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness "IN PART" is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ( That means temporarily Gigi )
Now here's a difficult verse that troubles most people.
Romans 11:26-27. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Paul is talking about his Kinsman of the flesh!
The Nation, when he take away their blindness.
Has the "Nation" turned to Christ? No.
Will they turn to Christ? Yes.
When? During the tribulation. "70 of Daniel"
THE TRIBULATION CENTERS AROUND ISRAEL.
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge THEIR OFFENCE, and seek my face: IN THEIR AFFLICTION they will seek me early. Hosea 5:15.
THEIR OFFENCE IS REJECTING CHRIST!
He'll come when they call on him.
Matthew 23:39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
This whole concept parallels
Psalms 118:18-29.
God bless.
I don't recall saying that there is not rapture in Scripture. I may have said that there is no pre-trib rapture plainly spoken of in the Scripture.
It is funny that you would say that the rapture can be pre or post trib. A while ago when I spoke of the rapture being described by Jesus in Matt. 24, you plainly said that that was not the rapture
I am kind of done with this discussion on the rapture, the millennium, and dispensationalism. People can take what I have said and check it to Scripture and think for themselves. Just as I do when someone else posts their thoughts.
I certainly do not expect people to accept what I say straight . I hope that what I post will stimulate of challenge someone to find out more for themselves.
Have a good night's sleep. It is late here again. I hope I can get to snooze level soon tonight.
As you said before, Salvation topics is a much more important topic.
If everything was said plainly it wouldn't be no reason to interpret.
God spoke to us in diverse ways as well.
God bless Gigi
I may stand alone on that.
It doesn't make it right or wrong.
GB
I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.
I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.
And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25 Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.
Thanks for responding.
I'm unable to engage at the moment.
I will soon be well rested and full throttle! I hope.
God bless you.
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