My question is concerning the image of Christ that is described in Revelation chapter one. Some people take this description literally as this being what he really looks like. I have always believed that since John was having a vision that was a spiritual image that was not what he would necessarily look like in the flesh. What is your opinion on this matter?
I mistakenly mentioned Donatists in my last post, but I meant Docetist, who emerged in the first century teaching that Jesus did not have a true human body. It was to these that the apostle John was speaking of in his epistles I cited.
The Bible says that nobody has ever seen God neither they can because they will die. And with the word "God" all three persons are implied. So nobody has ever seen the Father, the Son(His divine appearance), and the Holly Spirit. The Son was born as a man and lived among people. So people have seen the fleshy(human) part of Son, man Jesus Christ. After Jesus was resurrected His fleshy body was transformed, it became immortal (His disciples saw that body but it can take any form since sometimes His disciples didn't recognise Him) and glorified. Now there are two interpretations (that I know) about the person that appears to John in Rev.
1. That person was Jesus in His glorified body.
2. That person is an angel who speaks in Jesus' sake. People who believe it this way use verse Rev 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:" So according to that theory that person was an angel. This seems logical because that person's appearance resembles much to the appearance of an angel described in Daniel 10:1-6.
I believe Alsie is asking about "the image given" in Revelation 1:13-16. Is the description literally as what Christ really looks like.
Are you saying the vision John is seeing is the angel in verse 1?
If so, I believe the person "who I believe is Christ answers this in the text especially in verses 17 and 18.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
In my post I only listed what I know, not what I believe. My belief is that that person who appears to John in Rev 1 was Jesus, but there are some things that make have some doubts.
1. It it true that in verse 1 Jesus says that He sent an angel to John to reveal him the future. So where do we get to see that angel in Rev?
2. The description of that person resembles very much to the appearance of an angel discribed by Daniel.
3. I know what that person among the 7 candlestichs says to John. He speaks as if though He is Jesus Himself. But this often occurs in OT when angels speak to people as if there were God themselves.
Examples: a. Who spoke to Moses on mount Horeb from within the flame in the bushes? Although it seems it is God in verse 5, it is actually the angel of the Lord (verse 2).
b. To whom Moses was talking to on mount Sinai when he got the 10 commandments and all the other instructions? From chapter 19 onwards it seems that it is God Himself but in Acts 7:38 Stephen says to Jews that it was an angel, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
c. In Judges 2:1-4, an angel appears to talk to Israeletes but he speaks as if he was God Himself. The same happens with Gideon (chapt. 6). So it seems in many cases in OT an angel sent by God talks as he is God Himself.
(Here I have to state that many believe that the angel of the Lord who often appears in OT is (a pre-incarnation) Jesus in the form of an angel)
So those things make me have some doubts about who is the person who speaks to John, Jesus or an angel?
Thanks for replying. I also believe the person John is engaged with in Revelation 1 is Christ.
I also believe the Angel of the Lord is the pre incardinate Christ.
I believe this is who Paul speaks of in Acts 27:22-23. And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night "the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve",
I believe the person speaking to John in Revelation is Christ, not only by the description but by what he says.
" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
"SAYING",
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last;
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Conclusion. My last posting basically was stating that we need to see things with "spiritual eyes". The Spirit is the Comforter; for instance but we should never be too comfortable not to recognize His distinct Holiness and how inadequate we are to even speak as the Prophet Isaiah and Ezekiel as well as John the "revelator" experienced when they got a glimpse of His full glory.
This distinguishes Him from Satan who "appears as an angel of light" ( 2 Cor. 11:14). When we get a true vision of God; therefore there is no messing about; we are "made willing" (Phillipians 2:13). As we see with Isaiah 6:8 there is no hesitation on God's part to send out those who are qualified to proclaim the truth. He has equipped us for what is needed; but sadly the "harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few" ( Matt. 9:37).
About that verse in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".
There is often a misinterpretation of this verse. It doesn't mean that God "makes us willing", that would be a violation of our free will. Instead what it means is that "God WORKS IN our heart to make us behave according to His Will" BUT (and this is very important to know) the outcome of His work in our heart does not depend on Him but it does depend on our heart. God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing. ie He has given us His commandments to follow and he works in us to make us obeying them but at the end the result is on us, not Him. GBU
Perhaps Psalm 110:3 is the verse I wanted to quote. Obedience; as Jesus Himself said occurs because we love Him ( John 14:15).
Perhaps also the concept of doing things as James states is a result of faith WITH works; without such it is not true faith at all.
All works of course originate from our heart; and it's condition of being either good or evil (good fruit vs bad) as the input result in the output and the "reward" in it. So for the unregenerate the law may constrain sin; for instance; but as Psalm 119 illustrates we learn to LOVE the law even though it is something without His strength that we cannot obey. So it is the same God who is present and seen in some form who we all interact with. Hebrews 6:4 makes it evident that there is some experiential commonality as it were with all men; but the difference is having the Lord make residence in our hearts vs. being on the outside looking in as it were. Admittedly these are tough concepts and no matter how much intellectual understanding there is we have certain things hidden to us as to the full meaning ( Deut. 29:29). Our own worst enemy is; of course our own self and sin within. Saints of God understand this and therefore He "chastises all He loves" ( Hebrews 12:6). This differentiates Judas Iscariot from Peter in regard to the betrayal and the end result; for example. In the short term; it may be hard to discern the wheat from the tares but for many time will prove what fruit is present in their lives although sadly it takes until the end of someone's life for it to be clear (and that is almost always bad news). In the end we can only exhort; and rebuke and hopefully some will be retrieved from "out of the fire" as it were. Those who are His own learn to listen to the HARD verses in scripture and are offended when a lukewarm message is being offered or it is compromised in any way.
I am a little confused on what you are saying here. It seems as though you are implying that man's free-will overrides God's will and that God will not interfere with our free will.
Am I missing something here? This doesn't seem like something you would say, and I could be just misunderstanding you. Hopefully that's the case.
Can you please explain what you mean by saying "God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing."
Are you saying that if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it on my heart, but in my free will, I choose to do my own thing, God cannot do anything?
I'm not trying to create problems here, but just trying to understand what you are saying.
Thank you for your time and for the things you share!
Before that verse 13 (ie in verse 12) it says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Why fear and trembling? Because if one doesn't follow the narrow road but walks the wide highway then no matter if that person is born again or not the end will always be distruction. And because God does not want us to get there, He uses all sort of ways to affect our behavior to make us follow His commandments.
Jesse I know what you believe about this topic, salvation, we have talked about that many times in the past. My purpose is to explain myself and not to offend you. Have a blessed week. Your brother in Christ.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but also in my absence,"
So first of all, he praises them. He says you don't obey just when I'm there, but when I'm not there you obey. Here's what I want you to do. Here's the command, the salvation process.
And please notice the literal translation: Be continually working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
This tells me that it's a process. Someone might say, "Now wait a minute now. I thought that we didn't have to work for our salvation?"
But we can't separate this from the very next verse. Philippians 2:13 says, "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
The word "works in you" is the word energizing. For it is God who is continually energizing in you both to will, and to energize of His good pleasure whatever He thinks best!
It's His energy. It's whenever He wants to energize my spirit for His Spirit to work in me. It's all according to His good pleasure. It doesn't have anything to do with my good pleasure. I'm just a vessel.
So be continually involved in having your salvation worked out because it's God who is working it out.
My salvation cannot be lost because it is God who is working it out in me, and it is God who brings my salvation to its completion. Salvation is completely a work of God from start to finish.
Thank you for the conversation. You are my brother in Christ whether we agree on everything or not. Thank you so much for the blessing. You have a blessed week also!
Thank you for the explanation. I know it is never your intention to offend. We don't agree on everything but I always feel comfortable discussing those things with you.
I do understand free-will. We all have free-will to choose whether or not to obey God.
Personally, I do believe that God can violate a believers free-will. If God wills something to happen and it involves me, and He puts it on my heart, I believe it will happen the way He wills it to happen, no matter how much of my free will I choose to exercise.
Jonah was a great example. God says you're going to Nineveh. You see, Jonah had free will. Jonah exercised his free-will and went the opposite direction, against God's will. We know what happened there. Did God violate Jonah's free-will. It would seem so to me.
Brother, I know we are not robots. As far as God wanting us to choose freely what we want to do, I'm not sure I can agree completely with that.
I think about when Jesus was calling His disciples and He said follow me. That was not an invitation. It was a command. Remember some of the responses? "Let me first" go bury my dad, or "Let me first" go say goodbye to my family.
When Jesus said "follow me," it was a command. They had no choice. It was going to happen one way or another.
God does allow me to choose. But if my choice goes against what He has willed to to happen, His will is going to override my free-will choice.
I am about out of space so I will respond in a second post to your question on Philippians 2:12, and "Why fear and trembling."
It has nothing to do with loss of salvation and I'll explain why I say this.
Well I would say that "if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it in my heart, then in my free will, I either choose to do it or not to do it. If I choose not to do it God will not force me to do it. He will work it in my heart but will not force me. He will not "magically" make me do what He desires. We are not robots who are programmed to do specific things, we have to want to do something.
But let me explain myself. God can not violate people's free will, not because He can not do it but because He wants us to choose freely what we want to do. This is free will. It would be easy for God to appear to all mankind and everybody then would believe in Him and accept Him and Kneel in front of Him. But in such a case people would be compelled to do so. But God wants us to choose Him freely without being complelled to do so. So it will be obvious who loves the truth and who loves the darkness.
In the case of a believer God acts as an earthy father. When we want our Kids to do something i.e. clean their rooms then we talk to them, we explain to them why this is good, etc, etc, hoping that after sometime our Kids will change they way they behave and do the proper thing. Even sometimes we use punishments or rewards to achieve what we want. But that has not always the result we like, because some kids (like sometimes mine) do not obey even if I use the hard way. So I keep working the proper thing in his mind and hope a time will come that my efforts will finally have a result.
Similarly God works in our heart to make us follow His commandments using all sort of methods. And His commadments is the narrow road we have to follow to arrive to a victorious end, the salvation of our souls.
Jesus is the same yesterday; today and forever. That could be said of the entire Godhead.
Christ has the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelling within as said in Colossians 2:9. The Spirit was in Him without measure ( John 3:34) and whoever has seen Him has seen the Father ( John 14:9). Nonetheless there is certainly a destinction in terms of roles with Christ being the sin bearer and the Father turning away when He bore our sins at Calvary ( Psalm 22:1). God cannot dwell in unrighteousness; and for that moment it was God's will for Jesus to be crushed ( Isaiah 53:5).
The Holy Spirit isn't given any distinctive appearance except in the beginning of the Gospels ( Luke 3:22 for example appearing like a dove); and with cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost ( Acts 2:3).
Revelation 3:21 indicates Christ overcoming all things; death could not hold Him ( Acts 2:24).
In some sense whether in the Preincarnate form or since His Resurrection He is both in the form of a man (the Man who is the second Adam as it were) who still bears the marks on His body being the first of the Firstfruits resurrected from the dead ( 1 Cor. 15:23) and of course beyond time as the Creator of all things ( Jn. 1:3 and several other verses) fully God. So there is distinction and unity with the "Trinity" as it were. When looking at His glory; we see the fullness of sight and sound (with mighty thunderings with His voice ( Ezekiel 3:12-13; and verses in Revelation; Psalms etc.) We should be aware as believers of our sinfulness (as the Spirit indicates in John 16:8) and we tremble at His presence. This is different than the reaction of the wicked who sense their destruction and love their sin more than God ( John 3:19). Nonetheless it seems that there are "revelations and visions" abounding; but few seem to describe that Holy fear of God of which is the beginning of understanding ( Psalm 111:10). Compare this with much music and preaching today that presents a sappy God without other attributes.
When we read Revelation 1:14-16. we see a symbolic picture of the Glorified Christ in his royalty.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
: His head and his hairs were (white) like wool, as white as snow. This speaks of his eternity, his the ancient of days.
: His eyes were as a flame of fire. That speaks of his penetrating insight of the total life of the church. He even knows our thoughts and intentions.
: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace. This speaks of his Judgement.
: His voice as the sound of many waters. I believe that speaks of his authority.
I hope this helps along with the others contributing to answer your good question.
I believe Christ is not a physical body. So, who is Christ except God's Holy Son as He created Him. And what are you, except the Christ in you. The term "in you" in my opinion, is NOT to be taken as inside your body, for that is a very disgusting place to dwell. He is in your mind in which the Holy Spirit speaks to. It would also be appropriate to use the term "within your heart"; not to be mistaken as a physical heart. Although many names have particular meanings, the name Jesus, like all names, is used for body identification. Jesus APPEARED as a body and His Mind was in complete agreement with God's. And of course, all of us should constantly strive to understand with our whole heart or mind to think like Jesus, whom the Holy spirit speaks to us through.
I mistakenly mentioned Donatists in my last post, but I meant Docetist, who emerged in the first century teaching that Jesus did not have a true human body. It was to these that the apostle John was speaking of in his epistles I cited.
Jesus during his earthly life had a true physical human body. After His resurrection, He was seen with a physical body by His disciples and the women who went to the tomb. He ascended to heaven with a physical body and the angels said He would return in this same physical body. The church through the centuries has affirmed that He is in heaven in a physical body also and refuted all the ideas that came forward that denied these things, including the Gnostics, Donatists and others who denied that He came and lived in a physical body.
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confessed that Jesus Christcame in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this itsthe spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
That's a great question, Alsie. I sort of take the middle road on that. Though the Book of Revelation has a lot of imagery in it, which was what was revealed to John so he could comprehend or make sense of it, there are also real people & real events depicted in it which have to be accepted factually. When I read Revelation 1:13-16, clearly we have the Person of Jesus before John, Who both looked at John and touched him. Jesus had a garment on with a chest sash and His Voice had a tone & pitch unlike anything he had heard. Although, certain aspects were possibly hid from John, so that Jesus' Hair, Eyes, Feet, & Countenance could only appear as unusually radiant, sufficient for mortal man to see. Maybe the heavenly beings see the Father & Son in some other way; the Father Who is Spirit & Jesus, the Man, God's Word made flesh, now glorified.
Thanks, Alsie Florence
I mistakenly mentioned Donatists in my last post, but I meant Docetist, who emerged in the first century teaching that Jesus did not have a true human body. It was to these that the apostle John was speaking of in his epistles I cited.
The Bible says that nobody has ever seen God neither they can because they will die. And with the word "God" all three persons are implied. So nobody has ever seen the Father, the Son(His divine appearance), and the Holly Spirit. The Son was born as a man and lived among people. So people have seen the fleshy(human) part of Son, man Jesus Christ. After Jesus was resurrected His fleshy body was transformed, it became immortal (His disciples saw that body but it can take any form since sometimes His disciples didn't recognise Him) and glorified. Now there are two interpretations (that I know) about the person that appears to John in Rev.
1. That person was Jesus in His glorified body.
2. That person is an angel who speaks in Jesus' sake. People who believe it this way use verse Rev 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:" So according to that theory that person was an angel. This seems logical because that person's appearance resembles much to the appearance of an angel described in Daniel 10:1-6.
GBU
I believe Alsie is asking about "the image given" in Revelation 1:13-16. Is the description literally as what Christ really looks like.
Are you saying the vision John is seeing is the angel in verse 1?
If so, I believe the person "who I believe is Christ answers this in the text especially in verses 17 and 18.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
God bless.
In my post I only listed what I know, not what I believe. My belief is that that person who appears to John in Rev 1 was Jesus, but there are some things that make have some doubts.
1. It it true that in verse 1 Jesus says that He sent an angel to John to reveal him the future. So where do we get to see that angel in Rev?
2. The description of that person resembles very much to the appearance of an angel discribed by Daniel.
3. I know what that person among the 7 candlestichs says to John. He speaks as if though He is Jesus Himself. But this often occurs in OT when angels speak to people as if there were God themselves.
Examples: a. Who spoke to Moses on mount Horeb from within the flame in the bushes? Although it seems it is God in verse 5, it is actually the angel of the Lord (verse 2).
b. To whom Moses was talking to on mount Sinai when he got the 10 commandments and all the other instructions? From chapter 19 onwards it seems that it is God Himself but in Acts 7:38 Stephen says to Jews that it was an angel, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"
c. In Judges 2:1-4, an angel appears to talk to Israeletes but he speaks as if he was God Himself. The same happens with Gideon (chapt. 6). So it seems in many cases in OT an angel sent by God talks as he is God Himself.
(Here I have to state that many believe that the angel of the Lord who often appears in OT is (a pre-incarnation) Jesus in the form of an angel)
So those things make me have some doubts about who is the person who speaks to John, Jesus or an angel?
GBU
Thanks for replying. I also believe the person John is engaged with in Revelation 1 is Christ.
I also believe the Angel of the Lord is the pre incardinate Christ.
I believe this is who Paul speaks of in Acts 27:22-23. And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night "the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve",
I believe the person speaking to John in Revelation is Christ, not only by the description but by what he says.
" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
"SAYING",
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last;
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
God bless.
by the grace of God all scripture is given by inspiration of GOD and the Scripture CANNOT BE BROKEN
so, take the bible as the word of God and Not the word of men.
Just as the bible has described that's what He means.
Be blessed.
This distinguishes Him from Satan who "appears as an angel of light" ( 2 Cor. 11:14). When we get a true vision of God; therefore there is no messing about; we are "made willing" (Phillipians 2:13). As we see with Isaiah 6:8 there is no hesitation on God's part to send out those who are qualified to proclaim the truth. He has equipped us for what is needed; but sadly the "harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few" ( Matt. 9:37).
Agape; Rich P
About that verse in Philippians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".
There is often a misinterpretation of this verse. It doesn't mean that God "makes us willing", that would be a violation of our free will. Instead what it means is that "God WORKS IN our heart to make us behave according to His Will" BUT (and this is very important to know) the outcome of His work in our heart does not depend on Him but it does depend on our heart. God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing. ie He has given us His commandments to follow and he works in us to make us obeying them but at the end the result is on us, not Him. GBU
Perhaps also the concept of doing things as James states is a result of faith WITH works; without such it is not true faith at all.
All works of course originate from our heart; and it's condition of being either good or evil (good fruit vs bad) as the input result in the output and the "reward" in it. So for the unregenerate the law may constrain sin; for instance; but as Psalm 119 illustrates we learn to LOVE the law even though it is something without His strength that we cannot obey. So it is the same God who is present and seen in some form who we all interact with. Hebrews 6:4 makes it evident that there is some experiential commonality as it were with all men; but the difference is having the Lord make residence in our hearts vs. being on the outside looking in as it were. Admittedly these are tough concepts and no matter how much intellectual understanding there is we have certain things hidden to us as to the full meaning ( Deut. 29:29). Our own worst enemy is; of course our own self and sin within. Saints of God understand this and therefore He "chastises all He loves" ( Hebrews 12:6). This differentiates Judas Iscariot from Peter in regard to the betrayal and the end result; for example. In the short term; it may be hard to discern the wheat from the tares but for many time will prove what fruit is present in their lives although sadly it takes until the end of someone's life for it to be clear (and that is almost always bad news). In the end we can only exhort; and rebuke and hopefully some will be retrieved from "out of the fire" as it were. Those who are His own learn to listen to the HARD verses in scripture and are offended when a lukewarm message is being offered or it is compromised in any way.
Hope some of this helps. Agape. Rich P
I am a little confused on what you are saying here. It seems as though you are implying that man's free-will overrides God's will and that God will not interfere with our free will.
Am I missing something here? This doesn't seem like something you would say, and I could be just misunderstanding you. Hopefully that's the case.
Can you please explain what you mean by saying "God will do anything from His side but man has to respond, if not God can do nothing."
Are you saying that if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it on my heart, but in my free will, I choose to do my own thing, God cannot do anything?
I'm not trying to create problems here, but just trying to understand what you are saying.
Thank you for your time and for the things you share!
Jesse
Before that verse 13 (ie in verse 12) it says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Why fear and trembling? Because if one doesn't follow the narrow road but walks the wide highway then no matter if that person is born again or not the end will always be distruction. And because God does not want us to get there, He uses all sort of ways to affect our behavior to make us follow His commandments.
Jesse I know what you believe about this topic, salvation, we have talked about that many times in the past. My purpose is to explain myself and not to offend you. Have a blessed week. Your brother in Christ.
Here is the second part that I said I would send.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but also in my absence,"
So first of all, he praises them. He says you don't obey just when I'm there, but when I'm not there you obey. Here's what I want you to do. Here's the command, the salvation process.
And please notice the literal translation: Be continually working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
This tells me that it's a process. Someone might say, "Now wait a minute now. I thought that we didn't have to work for our salvation?"
But we can't separate this from the very next verse. Philippians 2:13 says, "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
The word "works in you" is the word energizing. For it is God who is continually energizing in you both to will, and to energize of His good pleasure whatever He thinks best!
It's His energy. It's whenever He wants to energize my spirit for His Spirit to work in me. It's all according to His good pleasure. It doesn't have anything to do with my good pleasure. I'm just a vessel.
So be continually involved in having your salvation worked out because it's God who is working it out.
My salvation cannot be lost because it is God who is working it out in me, and it is God who brings my salvation to its completion. Salvation is completely a work of God from start to finish.
Thank you for the conversation. You are my brother in Christ whether we agree on everything or not. Thank you so much for the blessing. You have a blessed week also!
Thank you for the explanation. I know it is never your intention to offend. We don't agree on everything but I always feel comfortable discussing those things with you.
I do understand free-will. We all have free-will to choose whether or not to obey God.
Personally, I do believe that God can violate a believers free-will. If God wills something to happen and it involves me, and He puts it on my heart, I believe it will happen the way He wills it to happen, no matter how much of my free will I choose to exercise.
Jonah was a great example. God says you're going to Nineveh. You see, Jonah had free will. Jonah exercised his free-will and went the opposite direction, against God's will. We know what happened there. Did God violate Jonah's free-will. It would seem so to me.
Brother, I know we are not robots. As far as God wanting us to choose freely what we want to do, I'm not sure I can agree completely with that.
I think about when Jesus was calling His disciples and He said follow me. That was not an invitation. It was a command. Remember some of the responses? "Let me first" go bury my dad, or "Let me first" go say goodbye to my family.
When Jesus said "follow me," it was a command. They had no choice. It was going to happen one way or another.
God does allow me to choose. But if my choice goes against what He has willed to to happen, His will is going to override my free-will choice.
I am about out of space so I will respond in a second post to your question on Philippians 2:12, and "Why fear and trembling."
It has nothing to do with loss of salvation and I'll explain why I say this.
Hello Jesse.
Well I would say that "if it is Gods will for me to do something, and He puts it in my heart, then in my free will, I either choose to do it or not to do it. If I choose not to do it God will not force me to do it. He will work it in my heart but will not force me. He will not "magically" make me do what He desires. We are not robots who are programmed to do specific things, we have to want to do something.
But let me explain myself. God can not violate people's free will, not because He can not do it but because He wants us to choose freely what we want to do. This is free will. It would be easy for God to appear to all mankind and everybody then would believe in Him and accept Him and Kneel in front of Him. But in such a case people would be compelled to do so. But God wants us to choose Him freely without being complelled to do so. So it will be obvious who loves the truth and who loves the darkness.
In the case of a believer God acts as an earthy father. When we want our Kids to do something i.e. clean their rooms then we talk to them, we explain to them why this is good, etc, etc, hoping that after sometime our Kids will change they way they behave and do the proper thing. Even sometimes we use punishments or rewards to achieve what we want. But that has not always the result we like, because some kids (like sometimes mine) do not obey even if I use the hard way. So I keep working the proper thing in his mind and hope a time will come that my efforts will finally have a result.
Similarly God works in our heart to make us follow His commandments using all sort of methods. And His commadments is the narrow road we have to follow to arrive to a victorious end, the salvation of our souls.
Christ has the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelling within as said in Colossians 2:9. The Spirit was in Him without measure ( John 3:34) and whoever has seen Him has seen the Father ( John 14:9). Nonetheless there is certainly a destinction in terms of roles with Christ being the sin bearer and the Father turning away when He bore our sins at Calvary ( Psalm 22:1). God cannot dwell in unrighteousness; and for that moment it was God's will for Jesus to be crushed ( Isaiah 53:5).
The Holy Spirit isn't given any distinctive appearance except in the beginning of the Gospels ( Luke 3:22 for example appearing like a dove); and with cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost ( Acts 2:3).
Revelation 3:21 indicates Christ overcoming all things; death could not hold Him ( Acts 2:24).
In some sense whether in the Preincarnate form or since His Resurrection He is both in the form of a man (the Man who is the second Adam as it were) who still bears the marks on His body being the first of the Firstfruits resurrected from the dead ( 1 Cor. 15:23) and of course beyond time as the Creator of all things ( Jn. 1:3 and several other verses) fully God. So there is distinction and unity with the "Trinity" as it were. When looking at His glory; we see the fullness of sight and sound (with mighty thunderings with His voice ( Ezekiel 3:12-13; and verses in Revelation; Psalms etc.) We should be aware as believers of our sinfulness (as the Spirit indicates in John 16:8) and we tremble at His presence. This is different than the reaction of the wicked who sense their destruction and love their sin more than God ( John 3:19). Nonetheless it seems that there are "revelations and visions" abounding; but few seem to describe that Holy fear of God of which is the beginning of understanding ( Psalm 111:10). Compare this with much music and preaching today that presents a sappy God without other attributes.
When we read Revelation 1:14-16. we see a symbolic picture of the Glorified Christ in his royalty.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
: His head and his hairs were (white) like wool, as white as snow. This speaks of his eternity, his the ancient of days.
: His eyes were as a flame of fire. That speaks of his penetrating insight of the total life of the church. He even knows our thoughts and intentions.
: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace. This speaks of his Judgement.
: His voice as the sound of many waters. I believe that speaks of his authority.
I hope this helps along with the others contributing to answer your good question.
God bless.
I believe Christ is not a physical body. So, who is Christ except God's Holy Son as He created Him. And what are you, except the Christ in you. The term "in you" in my opinion, is NOT to be taken as inside your body, for that is a very disgusting place to dwell. He is in your mind in which the Holy Spirit speaks to. It would also be appropriate to use the term "within your heart"; not to be mistaken as a physical heart. Although many names have particular meanings, the name Jesus, like all names, is used for body identification. Jesus APPEARED as a body and His Mind was in complete agreement with God's. And of course, all of us should constantly strive to understand with our whole heart or mind to think like Jesus, whom the Holy spirit speaks to us through.
Blessings
GOD IS
I mistakenly mentioned Donatists in my last post, but I meant Docetist, who emerged in the first century teaching that Jesus did not have a true human body. It was to these that the apostle John was speaking of in his epistles I cited.
Jesus during his earthly life had a true physical human body. After His resurrection, He was seen with a physical body by His disciples and the women who went to the tomb. He ascended to heaven with a physical body and the angels said He would return in this same physical body. The church through the centuries has affirmed that He is in heaven in a physical body also and refuted all the ideas that came forward that denied these things, including the Gnostics, Donatists and others who denied that He came and lived in a physical body.
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confessed that Jesus Christcame in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this itsthe spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
When we all get to heaven,
What a day of rejoicing that will be!
When we all see Jesus,
We'll sing and shout the victory!
Hallelujah.
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