Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Hello Gerald

I haven't gone to a theological school, I am not a scholar or a theologist either, I am an engineer, it's machines I am dealing with in my everyday time not the scriptures, but I serve as a deacon in a small congregation over here. And I very much like reading all sort of information about Christianity. Nowadays there is a huge amount of information on internet. And I think all people here on this site are born again christians, so everybody has experience with God and His revelations, some people more some people less. Definitely one needs the Spirit to guide them to the truth. But still one has to be in church to be taught things properly, you just can not stay home and expect for God to reveal you all the time about everything in the Bible. In that incident with the eunoch and Philip, the eunoch makes a question to Philip, Acts 8:31, "And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.". Obviously somebody had to guide him, that person should had been a man from God, the Spirit wouldn't teach him directly, isn't it so? So the main doctrines should be learned in a church, and if one wants to go deeper or just understand something they haven't understood well, then the Spirit of God helps them. Well, at the end it seems the things we are in agreement are more than the ones we disagree. GBU

Just to say , if you don't mind , that the Ethiopian needed someone to teach him about Jesus because he had come from Ethiopia and , he didn't have the new testament to read . I have total respect for you and your posts , I do take issue with the fact that you think that we need a person to teach us about God . Simply because , to me , that's a bit like saying that the Bible , as provided for us by God , isn't enough . Remember that we , humans , are not to add or subtract from God's Word , this strongly implies that God has provided , in the book , everything we need to draw closer to and understand Him , as much as He will permit . I was reading the Bible for a few years , every day , before I set foot in a church , though I don't profess to have understood it all then and I don't understand it all now , many years later , I'm still learning . The main way I learn is to read it , every day for almost thirty years . I have learnt things by reading this site also , indeed from you ! I'm a bit confused though when people , not specifically you or anyone in particular , say things such as : we need a person to help us understand but then say that the Holy Spirit teaches them . If we have one why do we need the other ? For me , I need to read , every day , God's Word . I'm not in a rush and don't expect to ever understand it all in my earthly life time . God's arm is not shortened , whom He wants to bring to Himself , He will bring , by His own chosen means . Thanks for all your interesting posts .

Sammi, You are correct, the Holy spirit teaches us. But He does so in several ways: through reading His word intending to learn from Him; when circumstances and life events point us to Jesus and His word; when others share what they have learned from God's word. In all of these, we need to have a "teachable spirit" and be open to all of the ways that the Holy Spirit brings teaching to us. Hearing the preaching of a pastor, reading a book or article (in print or online) or studying specific topics in different formats can be the Holy Spirit teaching us through others. When we share what we learn concerning God's truth, we would hope that the person hearing can be open to learn a bit as the Spirit leads the conversation and our minds. We normally do not simply quote Scripture to others, but instead explain what we learned from it to others. Others do that to us.

I began reading the Bible on my own without anyone encouraging me to at 9. At that time. I was only wanting to know the truth of God and prayed for Him to show me and not let me believe what wasn't truth. That Spirit-led prayer and desire has been with all my life since then. It is so comforting to know that God stoops low and answers the prayers of children in big ways!

I have learned a lot from those God placed over me through my life. But having a hunger for the truth of His word and a discerning mind keeps me questioning when something doesn't quite seem aligned with the Word. We are to be "Bereans", but even they were willing to learn from others. So, I am, too, willing to learn in all the ways God chooses to teach me. God bless you today, Sammi.

Hi Alleylee. I agree with what Ryan has shared with you about the apostolic position ending with the Apostle Paul. However, there seems to be a reference to Paul's companion, Barnabas, also being referred to as an apostle ( Acts 14:14). Even as the word, 'apostle' (in Greek, 'apostolos') means 'a messenger or one sent on a mission', which gives this word a more general meaning, one should be careful in seeking an appointment to apostleship. Today, the word 'missionary', or 'servant of the Lord, a preacher of the Gospel', may better fit the ministry of carrying the Good News to others/other nations. The Apostolic Church is one type of Fellowship that fosters the positions of apostles, prophets, etc. You may or may not find yourself at variance with their other beliefs concerning the Trinity, Holy Spirit baptism, falling from Grace, etc.

The trouble with this is that which usually goes along with it .

That the gifts of the Spirit no longer happen as too miracles etc .

This clearly is not true .

God has not changed yet we seem to have made our God set in aspic or stone .

And many have " heard of thee" but how many " now seeeth thee"?

Moses had heard of God as he grew up . But a day came when he met the Living God .

Gideon had heard of God but he too had a day when he met the living God and the lines of a lively communication were established .

Samuel had heard of God and had served in the temple for a number of years but he "knew not the Word of the Lord "

It could even be said of Isiah .

And what about Saul of Tarsus ?

and others .

Alleylee

How does one become ordained as an Apostle today.

One doesn't. 1 Cor 4.9 "God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death" there are no more apostles today because the work of an apostle (as well as prophecy and revelation) are finished/completed. Defining the word "apostle" just simply by one being "sent" doesn't cut the mustard.

It's like the word "perfect." There is a worldly and biblical definition for the word. So it is with the word "apostle." The worldly definition isn't even worth acknowledging. Is the Bible the final authority or not, after all? There's specific requirements to be a biblical apostle. They are no longer in effect. For the 12, you had to be apart of the Lord's earthy ministry since the beginning of his ministry ( Acts 1:21-22). Then Paul is a completely separate apostle by revelation of Jesus Christ. ( Gal 1:1, 12 /// 1 Tim 1:16 /// 2 Tim 1:9)

There are no more apostles. Now there are only ambassadors of Christ, whom God commits all the ministry of reconciliation ( 2 Cor 5:18-19).

The spirit of revelation and wisdom in the knowledge of him, as well as grace be unto and peace, from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hello Ryan.

Question. Where exactly in New Testament does it say that the age of apostles and prophets ended or is going to end sometime in the future? Because I cannot find anything written about it. Paul in 1 Cor 12,13,14 describes how the church should function when gathered together. Assuming that this is not the case anymore, how according to the scriptures should we function today?

found this and sent to her: "ANY Candidates of Apostleship needs: to; 1. have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them. That is, he needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus' baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus' person and work. 2. He needed to have heard Jesus' life-changing teachings and 3. been present to see His healings and other miracles". Therefore, in answer to your question Alleylee, "You can not be an Apostle today, nobody can".!"

Yet Paul does not fit that criteria .

Perhaps it's that belief that has the church in so much trouble .

For having reduced our " so great Salvation" to being but BORN again . We have made the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years as the Christian norm. Jordan as death and the promised land as heaven .

But getting out of Egypt was but being a type of being born again . By the blood of a lamb ,the Word of God ( to Abraham) and the power of God .

But we are not only saved from but saved to .

And the two years or so passing through the wilderness was but ' boot camp' . Where the children of Isreal learnt not to live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeded from the mouth of God .Ir were meant to .

Did not Paul warn the church not to be like them who entered not in because of unbelief ?

Nor be deceived as Eve was? Unbelief is not just not believing God its believing another message .

Not so, it's the lack of this belief that has the church in so much trouble.

We'd be in unity if you all understood rightly dividing the word of truth. It's right there in scripture.

How do you not see it? 2 Tim 2:15

Rather than take one part of an argument perhaos looking at it as a whole wouid help you come to a different conclusion.

Given so many ' versions' of the Bible out there all boasting in their " better understanding" etc yet proving quite the opposite has led to the people of God all like sheep going their own way having their own private interpretations . There is a lack of understanding because men are subjecting the Word of God to their intellects rather than subjecting their thinking to the Word of God and the Spirit of God .

Even if you was right as to there being no more Apostles after Paul . The church still is not following him who in turn was following Christ .

True there are many " little children who's sins are forgiven and who know the zFather .

There are much less of " young men the word of God dwellers in you richly and you have overcome the wicked one".

I would suggest there are fewer still who " know Him who is from the beginning "

In truth there is a unity in the church but it is that unity of all being inside but the Lord is outside knocking .

The promise however is to those who have ears towhead AND open the door"

There is a unity of the need to being BORN again . But very little it seems on what comes after .

Much is preached on the milk of the Word . But not much meat .

We have made the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years the Christian norm .

Jordon is death and heaven the promised land .

Not so.

It only took them just over two years to get from Egypt to the promised land .

They did not enter in days Paul because of their unbelief .

Yet two who were ready who could have gone in who could not go in still did so 40 years later .

Paul warns the church not to be like them who entered ot in because of unbelief .

Nor to be like Eve who was deceived .

The unity of the church is to the lowest common denominator . It is not that unity of John 17 yet.

We are a prodigal church since the Reformation .

You're suggestion that there's some who know him from the beginning, respectfully, is wrong. Knowing him from beginning means knowing him in the flesh, at the beginning of his ministry as Peter/the 12 did.

We are not a prodigal church since anything. We are the body of Christ. I'm not sure what your point is there. It's wise for us to look at what scripture says. "We are a prodigal church" is simply mans opinion and is not scripture.

We're the body of Christ and he is the Head. That is the spiritual truth.

Also, you mention being deceived like Eve in 2 Cor 11, well rightly dividing the word of truth is in scripture; it's how God desires us to study his word 2 Tim 2:15; and it clears a lot of things up.

If the church's doctrine was based on Romans - Phile (KJV, no "original language which isn't really original anyway; they use the classic greek. The original is koine) then lots of confusion would be cleared up. This isn't about a man (Paul). It's about the message. Paul is a chosen vessel. This is all because of the revelation of Jesus Christ. Ro-Phile is Christs' "spiritual ministry" or "heavenly ministry" if you like.

I agree with you we don't have many young men "overcoming the world" types: it's because we don't preach sin, and we don't preach the ***true*** power the grace of God gives us. It's all about self righteousness and our works. That's what I gather at least.

I once had a number of conversations with a Muslim ,a sincere man but one quite ignorant of God .

Who in one of our last conversations in which he held in his hand the Koran in Arabic and the opposite page an English translation . He surprised me by saying " only the Koran in Arabic is the true word of God " ( so he believed) Astonished ,I replied " have you been lying to me then ?He answered no! I pointing to his book asked is that book lying then? His answer was the same .is God an Arab then? He equally astonished said "No".

I said is God an Englishman ? One time they thought perhaos he was . But He isn't .

Is God Chinese? and other examples to prove the point .

For God is none of them , you might argue that Jesus was a Jew after the flesh but still you cannot argue God is .

All those languages then are all mans langauge . God must therefore if you will have His own language.

Who " humbles himself to speak to man"

It is not then the langauge it is translated into that is the " original" but God who inspired men so to write what it is written .

The devil changed that "Word of God that came forth out of His mouth" into a lie .

Men still do it today and still boast in their " better understanding" of the original texts but prove otherwise .

An overconfidence in understanding or having a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew has led many into gross error .

Even as an overconfidence in one's intellectual abilities has as well .

In the same measure as the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men to,so write the scriptures so He is needed to understand what is written in what ever language it is written in .

We are very fortunate in this country to have had the KJV for so long but men in their pride have cast it aside and think otherwise and by many in the church it is despised and rejected .

While other versions are held in high esteem ,for reasons which escape me and they would be hard to explain .

[Comment Removed]

Amen, amen & amen.

The church since the reformation has been a prodigal church . In that we having left the pig sty of false religion are on our way home to the Father .

" Luther's enlightenment that " the just shall live by faith " was but the first shoot of the seed of the church that had been effectively buried for centuries . That's not to say zGod did not have a witness , but they were very few and far between .

But the church had to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.

So you had a development of theology from Calvin .

Then the Baptist's .

Then Quakers as they were then ,

Methodists

Evangelicals

Pentecostals etc .

Each denomination holding to a fresh revelation of God . Not that there is any ' new' revelation . But rather as Luther's eyes were opened to understand the scriptures so others r that followed him by the grace of God understood more and more .

God is indeed BUILDING His church .

It is not yet completed . Yet in Gods eyes perhaps is already done .

We are then a prodigal church .

On the way home to our Father house .

But we have made the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years as the Christian norm .

Boot camp is over .

For is it not written of the Bride of Christ that she will "come out of the wilderness terrible as an army with banners ? Leaning upon her beloved "

The Bride must get herself ready .

" Be ye also ready " said the Lord to the disciples .

The last day church cannot be anything less than the first day church .

The logic of Johns statement clearly shows a growing maturity and development of a child of God .

From Little children . To young men , to fathers .

Which in turns confirms to the scripture that we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.

Which also follows Paul's admonition to " go on to perfection .

I wouod also respectfully point out that Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life ,no man comes unto the FATHER accept by me "

The whole point and purpose of Jesus coming to this world was so that we might be reconciled to the Father .

In our praying did He not teach us " Our Father ."

I have said it a number of times and will keep on saying it. The church of which I am a part has reduced our so great salvation to being BORN again . Which is but getting out of Egypt . Praise the Lord .Our sins are forgiven and we know the father .

But having so reduced the gospel we have simply kept recycling the milk of the word and there is not much meat .

That's not to say we should not teach the milk . But children are expected to grow up!

Into young men and then onto fathers .

I there for put it to you that to know Him who is from the beginning must in some great measure know the Creator. On the one hand and thinking on it ," in the beginning was the Word " on the other .

The church does not know God as much as it thinks it does .

Nor indeed do we have many " young men" as John would have it so .

Partly because a lot of Gods people do not believe Him who was in the beginning ,but to have peace with the world mix truth with falsehood .

But if we believe Him who said " Son thy sins are forgiven"? Should we not also believe Him who sent Him?

Amen Gerald.

We have to live in the strength of God's Spirit as mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23.

Being born from above is not just sins forgiven, its a new creation taken place where the truth in the inerrant scripture shapes us.

It's not just hearing what Christ is saying, It's living what Christ is saying by virtue of the word and not what we achieve in the flesh.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God bless you and all that you do brother.

As you said: "but having so reduced the gospel we have simply kept recycling the milk of the word & there is not much meat". The meat starts & ends w/Jesus yet very much includes everything in between; S*loving God with all our being, our neighbor as ourselves, reading, learning spreading His word (including teaching of evil (hell) & prophetic times to come) & living accordingly, never denying Christ*.! Very true what you said about "dispensation and the bible being rightly divided", according to His word we shall live with Jesus in our heart. He is NOT a "religion", He is the truth, the way & the life.! Plus, these days for one to say "I'm Christian" (the Word "Christian" Origin "Christianos" is the original Greek word for Christian, and it is derived from the words "Christ" and "tian." "Christ" indicates "anointed," and "tian" signifies "little." As a result, the term "Christian" actually means "anointed ones) therefore I feel it proper to say "I'm a believer" or "rightly divided". Basically, we live according to Paul's epistles ( Act 13-Philimons) no longer living by old laws & rules yet if anyone truly has Jesus in their heart (*and all of the above*) they will not want (have need) to sin against any commandments. Amen

Sorry Ryan, but the Scriptures say that Jesus rose bodily. He rose from the dead in the same body He had prior to HIs death, only it is glorified forevermore. He ascended into heaven bodily and will return to earth bodily. He forever is fully God and fully man. This is the marvel of the incarnation, that God the Father sent His Son to forever be both God and man to redeem humanity and forever be united to humanity through His human nature. He always has been united to the Father in his divine nature. But now, and forevermore, He is in heaven with His glorified body. This is classical orthodox teaching. But you may not believe this, some do not. But I wanted to speak what has been the doctrine of the church since apostolic times for those who may not be aware of it.

Hello Ryan, good to meet you here.

Hebrews 3:1 tells us that Jesus is our Apostle and High Priest. So, He is the only apostle among us today. He is the Apostle and Priests of all believers. Otherwise, all of His apostles, including Paul have died, having left their inspired writings for us to learn from them of the knowledge of God in But now, our Apostle is Jesus Christ, the Author and the Finisher of our faith. The Holy Spirit "takes what is His (Jesus) and reveals it to us".

Hebrews is written to the Hebrews.

Rom 11:13 /// 2 Tim 1:9-11

Paul is our apostle ordained by revelation of Jesus Christ which is part of the mystery that God kept secret.

Ryan, prayerfully

I do not agree with your dispensational view of Scriptures and especially that we are to focus on Paul rather than on Jesus or to not heed the Gospels or all of Scripture. I do not divide the Scriptures, prophecy, and history the way dispensationalist divide it up into dispensations.

I do not think that 2 Tim.1:9-11 is speaking of dividing Scriptures up this dispensational way. Jesus never told us to do so and I believe He is the Sovereign of the universe, not Paul, Darby, Scofield, nor Bullinger. I believe this verse is speaking about correctly understanding and teaching about Scripture, not dividing it up into dispensations, whether 7, 9, or whatever a dispensational teacher might say. I also believe that 1 Tim. 3:16-17 tells that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" So, to me, ALL means ALL. I don't think Jesus or any apostle said that any part of Scripture is not "for us". That idea is an addition to Scripture made by Darby, Bullinger and other leaders of dispensationalism.

In Romans 11:13 Paul is simply speaking of the scope of his ministry, to preach to the Gentiles the Gospel of JESUS not the gospel of Paul. He was not making a directive to the Gentiles that we are only to follow what he teaches. JESUS is who we follow. Paul would cringe and be so adamant against what is taught by Darby and Bullinger, and Scofield. He would never amplify himself at the expense of any believer minimizing the teachings JESUS in the Gospels.

Ryan, I say this because I am just as strong in my non-dispensational view as you are in your dispensational view. We do not need to dispute one another on this, in my opinion, but should allow believers to express their view and quote from all books of Scripture without others dismissing any of God's Word as being in applicable to believers.

No one can deny there are not the dispensations of God . But take any doctrine and attempt to understand all scripture through the lease of that one doctrine and sooner or later you will have to " twist the scriptures" to make them fit .

ANY ' ism' will lead you astray .

I fear that for many doctrines have become intellectual trophies one places up on a shelf , rather than living breathing eternal truths that each has its purpose and function .

I liken them to the bones of the body . That give it strength and structure and help it to stand .

Each in its place and fulfilling its function .

We are I think to day like Ezekiel valley of dry bones .

Or as the Lord was crucified " all his bones were out of joint "

Truth is out of joint ,not broken but out of joint . Primarily because man subjects the scriptures to his intellect and reasoning to his " better understanding " of the original texts .

Rather than subject man's reasoning to Gods .

" My ways are not your ways and as far as the heaven is above the earth so far are my thought above your thoughts .

That is not to say however that you cannot follow His reasoning or the reasoning of the scriptures and they are not unreasonable .

Nor is Gods logic or the logic of the scriptures as such that it cannot be followed .

" Till we all come to a unity of the faith .."

But all we like sheep have gone astray each going his own way using his own version of the truth .(?)

Gigi, I get where you're coming from. This isn't a matter of your philosophy, or Ryan's philosophy. It's a matter of what scripture says.

Also, The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write "my gospel" on a few occasions. Rom 2:16 Rom 16:25.

It's a distinct message given by Jesus Christ. To say that "focusing on Paul" is turning away from scripture is simply not true. Paul talked about Christ more then any other writer. Paul kept his sights on the Lord as he instructs us to do; not according to the Lord's earthly ministry, but according to the revelation of the mystery which IS the will of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Col 2:2.

Our gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4. It's not in Matthew - John. You find the other gospel in the Gospels. ( Gal 2:7). The only one disputing is you. I am defending the truth because I am not ashamed of it.

You cannot sit here and tell me the scriptures make sense without dispensationalism (which is in the Bible Eph 1:10 Eph 3:2).

And like I told the one brother, I mentioned 2 Tim 3:16. But what comes before chapter 3? Chapter 2. Specifically 2 Tim 2:15.

Guess what? If someone is erred in the scripture and I know the truth, I'm going to speak up. I've been silent for too long.

Ryan, You, indeed are disputing me as I have you. I do not accept your viewpoint. I believe there is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel of Jesus. He delivered the same gospel to His apostles and to Paul. His earthly life is vital to God's plan of redemption. The incarnation and perfect life of Jesus, His historical death and resurrection are all earthly events. When He ascended to heaven, He sat down at the Father's right hand to rule and reign over history with the Father. His earthly life matters eternally, just as His resurrected life matters eternally. But I am pretty much sure that you will not see things this way. So, I am done with this discussion.

While the letter was primarily written to the Hebrews we shouid not think it is not applicable or unprofitable to study for the gentiles .

Indeed if you want to witness to any Jew it would be worth anyones time to study well that letter .

It goes back to what I keep saying lol. I don't understand why everyone doesn't get this: 2 Tim 3:16. But what comes before it?

What comes before chapter 3? Chapter 2, and more specifically, 2 Tim 2:15. If we're going to study any of scripture, we must rightly divide it. In other words, we must study ***in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ, according to the mystery***.

James 2 and Romans 4 are perfect examples. James 1:1 he is specifically talking to the Israel of God (the believing remnant that will "come out" in Jacob's Trouble).

They "contradict each other" and that's perfectly ok. Why? Because both passages are written to different people during different dispensations. James 2: written to the remnant during Jacob's Trouble (the start of the dispensation of the kingdom) and written **for** our learning (but not our doctrine) and Romans 4: written to us in this dispensation of the grace of God (written to us and is our doctrine because we're under the mystery, the dispensation of the grace of God.)

James is not apart of the Body of Christ. Nor is the writer of Hebrews. (Paul didn't write Hebrews - Heb 2:1).

I don't understand why everyone is trying to correct me on something I've stated multiple times now.

Me: 2 Tim 3:16 all scripture is for us but we have to rightly divide it 2 Tim 2:15

You: Yeah but all scripture is for us.

Me: ....yeah I know. You're at the half way mark. Not the finish line. I'm trying to help you open your eyes to truly understanding scripture. It would be wise to inquire the truth God's opened my eyes too. I'm trying to shew you a more excellent way: God's way, how he wants us to go to scripture today.