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You will get many different answers to your question. My opinion...
There is the belief in many christian churches that the age of apostles and prophets ended in that early time. But there are many that do not accept this. God and His Word have not changed, it is people that have changed their beliefs unreasonably. Unreasonably because if something that is described clearly in the Bible does not exist in our church, then we should try to find out what is that we do (or believe) wrongly and stop trying cancelling the Word of God. So the best thing is one to go to their knees and ask God what is going wrong. If we are sincere about it God will definitely find a way to answer back, this is always the case.
So there are many christians that claim that God stopped talking to people after the Revelation was written, thus putting a duct tape on God's mouth. So God humbled and offered Himself for people suffering a horrible death but at the same time He is too arogant to speak to us now? Doesn't He want to talk to His children? Is this OK? Of course God talks and hears. In Acts it was God personally that ordained the 12 and Paul, it was the Spirit that led Paul and Barnabas to the gentiles. But Silas and Luke and Apollos and the rest were not pointed out by God directly but were chosen by Paul according to the wisdom given to him by the Lord. So when a minister anoints somebody else in the name of Jesus according to the instructions given in the Word of God, it is like God personally did it. So If God did all that at that time He can still do it today. He hasn't changed the way He acts
An apostle must have results in his mission, this is a proof that he was elected by God, 1 Cor 8:1-2. An "apostle" who has no results to show is not an apostle. Also read 2 Cor 12:12, one must prove that God sent him. People must be Spirit baptized, healings must occur etc, maybe not in the degree those occured in ancient times but still they should occur, Mark 16:15-18. GBU
Those were the criteria for the inner circle of Jesus' disciples, not for the rest of them. Paul didn't live with Jesus, neither Barnabas nor Luke, Silas, Timothy, Titus, Apollos ... neither the rest of those we read in Acts.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Do you notice who's doing the building? The Lord himself! PRECIOUS STONE!
Our own efforts can only build straw houses. ( Wood hay and stubble)
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.."
Lets read the above like a greek person reads it.
"You are Petros (a masculine name from the feminine noun "Petra" which means "stone, rock") and upon this rock I will build my church". So what Jesus actually says is "You are rock and upon this rock I will build my church".
So the question is, what does the Lord mean with that?
!. The Rock is Peter himself. It makes sence since there is a continuity in the text. The most possible explanation is that on Peter's preaching on the day of Pentecost the church was initiated and established.
2. The Rock is the declaration Peter did in verse 16, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.". On that declaration the church was supported and founded.
3. The Rock is Jesus Chist Himself, since He is the cornerstone of the spiritual building which is the church, as you said.
All 3 are possible. But I don't think anything changes really if one chooses any one of those.
GBU
Matthew 16:16-18
16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17)And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my
18)Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe Jesus is saying Peter what you declared in verse 16 is the rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
and Peter preached that on Pentecost.
I like the way you put that Giannis!
All three applies.
God bless.
The Lord stating thou art Peter a " stone" not a rock he clearly differentiated Himself " the Son of the living God" the Rock ,from Peter ,the stone .
GB
You cannot build an eternal church on a son of Adam . You can only build it on the Son of God .
God in his wisdom laid out all of Peters failures to show also he was not tThe Rock. All of scripture says God is the Rock.
Jesus Himself said " if any one hears my words and does them ,I will liken them to a wise man that dug deep and built his house upon a rock " Jesus being the Rock the Word of God made flesh .
One swallow does not make a summer . One verse does not make or prove a doctrine .
Peter was the Apostle to the Jews and was based in Jerusalem .
Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles and was found and died in Rome .
Tradition does not overrule scripture .
I am simply presenting what ' all' of scripture says to prove who is the rock and who Jesus said was a stone .
If yiur suggesting that a ' stone' is the rock would make the Words of the Lord meaningless .
The context was and is " Who do you say I am"
Peter replied " thou art the Son of the living God "
The Lord then said who Peter was and is " a stone "
Having established who was who and what was what .
The Lord then followed it and upon this rock ( who He is) I will build my church
" all" of scripture declares that God is the Rock (/ examples given ) .
GB
1. Where exactly does it say that Peter was a "stone"?
2. I won't get into an argument about who is exactly the "rock" that Jesus meant. I don't think it is something essential, it is not a doctrine anyway. And to be honest I am not sure which one is right (the one that is the most acceptable in my church is the no. 2 in my previous post). But let's examine it. Firstly I want to say that I am in agreement with what you have written so far about Jesus on this topic. But lets see that conversation again. Peter says to Jesus that He is the Son of God. Jesus answers him that Simon(his real name) is a stone(Peter) and upon this stone He will build His church. So if you were a witness at that time what would you had assumed that Jesus meant? The obvious I think. Peter was a dynamic personality, that is why Jesus called him a "rock", he wasn't soft, he wasn't unstable. He had done some mistakes before Pentecost, but afterwards him and the rest and Jesus' brothers carried the load of spreading the Gospel everywhere. Of course Jesus(Word of God) is the foundation of our faith. But Jesus Himself didn't establish any church. The church was initiated on Pentecost after Peter's preaching to Jews, and from there on him and all the other apostles and disciples carried those good news all over the world under God's Grace.
The Catholics claim that he was the 1st Pope. But none of the 12 seems to had been a pastor. Peter in 1 Peter 5:1 calls himself an elder just like the other elders, not higher than them. In grk the terms elder and bishop are alternated in the text, they mean the same thing. Long later in some denominations like in Catholics the Bishop became a leader. But in Acts bishop is just another name for an elder. So Peter was an elder. Paul was not an elder, but an apostle. Similarly John seems to not had been an elder either. So that claim of Catholics' is not right. But even if it is right, this doesn't make the Bishop(Pope) of Rome higher than any other.
For we have swathes of people deceived and deluded by a ' church' that has taken but ONE verse and built an edifice upon it built on sand .
" Come out from among her says the scriptures lest you become partakers of her judgements"
I present an argument in the sense of a logical and reasonable biblical steps which try test and prove the case .
An argument in its most base form is where two people bang heads together neither listening to the other .
Or one stubbornly holding to a position untenable in the light of scripture .
You judge .
Though in truth the scriptures say the " first Adam was a foreshadow of Him who was to come .
You say the Lord did not establish any church?
Yet the scruptures state " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Perhaps then it's your concept of the church that needs therefore adjusting?
Was not the first Adam created from the dust of the earth?
And did not Almighty God put Adam into a deep sleep and create Eve from the body of the man? Namely his rib.
If then the first Adam was a foreshadow of Him who was to come .The last Adam .
Then through the death of the last Adam another body the bride of Christ will come from His body .
Peter a great Apostle was none the less but a stone a pebble .
God is that ' rock of ages ' upon which the eternal church of God is built upon .
The Lord said " Thou art Peter a stone "
Upon this rock what Rock? " Thou art the Son of the living God "
2 Samuel 22:47
Deuteronomy 32:31
Psalm 62:7
And many more all found on a search God is the rock on this very app.
While any man can get it wrong for no man is infallible . Though some religionists foolishly claim otherwise . What does the scriptures say? "ALL scripture is given by inspiration if God and is good for correction reproof and instruction in righteousness "
Taking ONE verse to build your case is not only unwise it will inevitably lead to error . Which is why the Roman church is now full of it .
While you may be in doubt as with this one verse may mean .
ALL of scripture clearly states GOD is that rock .
Jesus being God manifested in the flesh it clearly means by the rest of scripture that it does not mean Peter but the Lord Himself .
To hold to anything else in the light of the rest of scripture is simply foolish at best .
At worse you judge ..
My first reply was wrong that is why I corrected it later.
In that verse in Matthew the actual meaning of Peter(Petros) is rock(petra), not stone. A more specific anc. grk word for "stone" is "lithos", it is used in Matthew 21:42, "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone(lithos) which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner(cornerstone): this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?". So Jesus describes Himself as stone in this scripture, isn't He?
I am in agreement with what you say about picking a single verse and make a doctrine out of it. But as I have already said I don't think this is an important topic to spend so much time on it. GBU
You are one I trust to turn to if I'm looking for further clarification on the Greek. My question is, when Jesus said "upon this rock," is the word "this" used in the Near Demonstrative or Far Demonstrative?
That's my only question. Thanks!
It is near demonstrative.
The grk text writes (using latin letters):
"Ka'go de soi lego oti su eisai Petros, kai epi TAUTE te petra oikodomeso ten ekklesia mou"
The word "taute" is the word you asked for, it means "this".
"Epi(upon) taute(this) te petra(the rock), [in grk infront of all nouns an article(definite or indefinite) is always placed, so it is "the rock"]
Thank you so much for your reply!
1) The Lord himself said Peter was a stone .
Jesus is the Rock upon which he will build his church .
I know by some who take this one verse and build a molehill upon it to justify their spurious claims . But all of scripture declares that God is the Rock .
And you cannot build an eternal church upon a pebble or on a son of Adam . But quite reasonably you can build such a church on the rock of ages .
When Jesus spoke of some saying " lo here is Christ and lo there is Christ ,He was not speaking of Himself
But rather of the anointing . For Christ means anointed .
Those who make claims that here is the anointing or there is the anointing are as deceived as they are deceiving .
For the eternal resting place of the Holy Spirit of God is the Word of God . For John say Him descend-as a dove and rested or abided on the Lord as He came up out of Jordan .
In Noah's day he sent out a dove twice . The firs5 time it found no resting place and returned . The second time it returned carrying a token of rest an olive branch or leaf .
In the Old Testament we read of a number of occasions where the Spirit of God came UPON people .
But it is only in the new Testament after the resurrection we read Hecwilll not only be with you but shall be IN you and will abide forever .
If anyone goes running after the anointing they are going in the wrong direction . No matter what the claims .
They who honour me says the Lord I will honour ..
Honour the Word and the Holy Spirit abides .
It is written that because He loved them he delayed going to them . Mary said if you had come earlier you could have healed him .
Her faith was in the past and was thus ineffective .
Martha said that she believed Hecwouid raise him up at the end . Her faith was in the future and thus ineffective.
Jesus replied to her " I AM the resurrection and the life "
The Lord is always present ,now .
And while we may and should have a "sure and certain hope" for the future , our faith must always be and can only operate in the
"Now"
And that righteousness that is by faith .
Jesus fulfilled the Law and justified by the law . He walked by faith and was also righteous by faith .
We who are true born children of God are not saved by baptism for it is written that in baptism we are buried with Christ .." only the dead are buried .
But we do willingly ( by grace) conform to Christ .
We "uphold the Law " for we die and are crucified with Christ confessing our sin and putting our faith in Him who died for us all .
And are then justified by faith in Christ .whoGod raised from the dead " for our justification "
The Apostles lais the foundation in which we are to build upon.
Jesus is the Cornerstone. ( In building the Cornerstone is the first and most important part of the foundation. The rest of the building depends on It's perfection. afterwards the foundation is layed. (THE APOSTLES)
Then the comes the building. (US.)
Once the building has started there is no need of another foundation. This is what Christ was saying in Matthew 16:18. " upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
HE was speaking of himself referencing Peters answer. ( Matthew 16:16 "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Ephesians 2:19-22. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, Jesus Christ himself being the chief CORNER STONE;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION of God through the Spirit.
Also see.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11 (KJV) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
God bless.
The true pattern of an Apostle has to be Paul and while we the church might never get another Paul in some measure every true Apostle must follow the pattern.
In zeal ( with knowledge"), sound doctrine , care of the church , full of the Spirit , outreach ,church building .etc .
I think perhaps all those ministries of God as listed in Ephesians needs must be ordained by God .
And all the ' qualifications' in the world are no substitutes for the anointing and blessing of God .
Moreover the true born children of God are not called to blindly follow even a real one . But as each of those ministries are given to the church( to perfect the church and get the Bride ready till " we all come to a unity of THE faith ."
Then to have such a unity there must also be a unity of understanding . For faith in God comes by understanding the Word of God .Given the propensity of many ,either to blindly follow any one who can give a ' good performance' on the one hand or else like sheep each going his own way with preach having their own interpretation of the scriptures , any true Apostle has got his work cut out and won't be popular with the many .
GB
You wrote, "An Apostle of God is not ordained by man at all ,but ordained by God ." and you are right. My question to you is, how does God ordain ministries? Does He speak, does He show visions,..., how?
Paul in 1 Ephesians 4:11 talks about the ministries in the church, some of them are apostles and prophets. So from your posts I think we agree that those ministries should still exist in the church, God and His Word haven't changed. But according to your opinion how does God points out who is what?
Do you know that the word ' Christian' was first used in the book of Acts not by the church but by the world and a term of derision ?
Paul counted himself as the "offscouring "of the world . That's the scum that comes to the top of a cooking stew.
A far cry of many today .
Self proclaimed Christian's is one thing . When the world identifies you as one is another . But will not like for it .
Apostles. Throughout the history of Christianity apostles have not ceased existing. Paul and the 12 and the rest carried the good news to a small part of the world, mainly in todays Middle East, Turkey and Greece, some went even further, to Rome(who actually, definitely not Paul). But in the following centuaries the gospel went all the world. By whom?. Somebody brought the good news to the UK, some believers to the Pagan Central and Northern Europe, some to the Americas, some to the Slavs, to Africa, to Asia ... Who were they, weren't those apostles? Nowadays some believers sacrifice their lives going and preaching in muslim countries and China, aren't those apostles? What are they? If not apostles, what are they? The mission of an apostle is to preach the gospel AND establish new churches. Whereas the mission of Evangelists is to preach the gospel and bring the new believers into an already existing church, in the region they are serving the Lord. So even today there are many apostles. How can one see if someone is an apostle? As you said from his life, his doctrines, but also from the results he is having and (very important) if God gives proofs of His ministry. Of course we haven't seen people like Peter, Paul, .. that perform huge miracles, but we still see people been born again, been baptized in the Spirit, getting healings, seeing visions etc. God always shows His face to honest people that love and serve Him. If you go to the Testimony section of this site you will read jaw droping testimonies about God's actions in peoples lives. In Ephesians the spiritual gifts are described, two of those are the apostle and the prophet. If we assume those do not exist anymore, then the rest should also not exist any more, but they all exist. If we accept that God is so near to us, actually inside us, why do we think it is over any logical thinking that He talks to us? If He doesn't talk to us, then He is distant God out there in the deep space. But He is not.
[Comment Removed]
But it is the Holy Spirit that enlightens the mind and heart to understand the scriptures as they are meant to be understood .
Saul of Tarsus had a lot of head knowledge but no understanding .
It took over three years in the Arabian desert to unlearn what he had been taught and for the Holy Spirit of Christ to put all the scriptures in their rightful place . No man taught him .
And he said when he finally met the Apostles in Jerusalem to check if he had " preached in vain". They added nothing new to him"
His letters and confessions simply proved how qualified he was or has become .
Before he had zeal but without knowledge or understanding .
He now became as much if not more zealous because of his lively knowledge of Jesus which he held above everything and in the light of which everything else he used to boast in " was as dung".
As Jesus told Peter Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you..but my Father in heaven...It cannot be learned via our carnal minds...or any Church Pastor...Its gotta be our internal Pastor the H.G...Thats y God gives us the gift of the H.G. TO LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH....Even ISAIAH 11:6 ...Tells us a little Child is gonna lead them...Which is the Child of PROMISE the H.G.
..... John 16:13 When he the spirit of truth is come he will lead you into all truth...He will not speak of himself simply b/c he has to be born in US.. he is just an infant and infants cannot speak for a season...Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child a heavenly Birth....As Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit which is the H.G. THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH...K Leme go
.....There are over 2000 different kinds Churches and on every corner and none of them teach the same thing simply b/c they don't have the H.G. TO TEACH THEM...The anointing... Their God is Sports and the dollar...Gain is godliness etc and money is ministry...from such turn away...Bro Paul...Remember Peter said silver and gold havei none but such as i have give i to thee.