Bible Discussion Thread

There's a whole lot of discussion these days on social media about what book belongs in the Bible (ie Jasher, Enoch, etc). I submit to you through my own convictions on this. Nothing matters more than Salvation. It is God's plan. It was his plan from the beginning. We, Christians, know that God, in the beginning, knew he would dwell in a flesh body and he created the whole world based off of the body in which he would dwell and become the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Do not let anyone deceive you, nor take away your joy in salvation by wrapping you up in theologies and in bankrupt "what-ifs."

Salvation in God's word is key to everything. We must hear, believe, have faith and obey his word for this salvation. Yes, Jesus did the work and fulfilled the Law and the prophets, but he commanded his apostles to Go, Teach, and Baptize. Jesus himself, who is God in the flesh and his flesh now glorified, was even baptized himself to fulfill all righteousness. If he did it and commanded his apostles to do so in his name, we should have no question about doing it as well. Whether you disagree or not as far as salvation goes, it's very clear that baptism is very important and was applied to many things in the Bible giving us examples of why it is and remains so important. The great flood, The Red Sea crossing, the laver where the high priest cleansed and washed, Jesus's baptism, Jesus commanding his apostles, The apostles baptizing in Jesus' name, Phillip preaching "Jesus" to the Eunuch and the first thing he asked for was to be baptized, Peter being present for the Jews, Samaritans, and the Gentiles to repent, be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the holyghost, Paul telling the Jailer to believe and he would be saved and taking him and his house and baptizing them, etc etc... Baptism is very essential. Jesus commanded it and even said in Mark 16:16 "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..." Do not be decieved nor robbed of your birthright.

Typo

Read "Exe 36:25" as Eze 36:25

You can read my reply to Benning below to see my belief.

I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19. It's very clear what He said and meant. This applies today and means water baptism. Any complex rationale people invent doesn't change Jesus's words or what He meant.

Just because someone is obedient doesn't mean someone is obeying with impure motives. It doesn't automatically mean someone is obeying God to "earn" salvation aside from grace, but following and obeying Jesus because that's what a Christian does. A Christian follows Christ. It's really clever to attack someone being obedient to God; this obviously doesn't come from God. I have an idea of where this defiance comes from though. I'm sure no one will change what they want to believe here, despite what is clear in scripture. We will all find out on judgment day. Will Jesus welcome those who disobeyed Him or who those obeyed Him? Some of those who are shaming obedience don't even consistently apply it. They may cherrypick one verse Jesus said and obey that, but not all the other verses Jesus said. Christianity a la carte?

You are correct... In the fact that not everyone who speaks obedience is faithful in it themselves or their intensions are always pure... However,

Do not dismiss it either. I'm not talking about the law here either. Jesus did the work for sure and nailed it to the cross, but, some of it is also up to us. We must endure to the end and then we will be saved. We are sealed until that time, but we are not saved until the end. Jesus doing it all is thrown into the same filter as just believing or to just believe and confess and your saved. It ALL applies!! Lol! All. Every bit. It's not cherry picking. It's a hey, take notice of this. This is why we are told to study to show ourselves approved. Obedience doesn't mean (well, I'm good to go because I did all this and I'm good). Pay attention please, obedience is doing what Jesus said. Doesn't have to be a commandment. Jesus said to get baptized. I mean, if you're a Christian, get baptized then!! Then look into why we are baptized! With water, yes. People still separate this stuff and it goes hand in hand. Period. If Jesus said to do it, and he was beaten and bashed and spit on and underwent the death on the cross.... Get baptized in water in his name for the remission of sins and to be buried with him. Simple. He did the work, he took must obey this Gospel. I stress baptism in Jesus name so much because so many so called believers are just straight antichrist and prove it everytime you tell them baptism is part of salvation, and yes, it most certainly is. Death, burial resurrection.

Repentance is death, baptism in water is burial abd, resurrection is being filled with the Holyghost. It's a very easy process. Do you still obey God and live for him? Yes, even better because you have his name, blood, water, and spirit applied and the spirit seals you and gives you strength to fight against your flesh. But, repentance, which never stops that's daily and baptism once is still very essential.

Adam - I'm afraid you are misunderstanding what I said. I never said we should not be obedient to God's commandments. We absolutely should.

What I said is that we should never ever trust in our obedience to any commandment as contributing anything to our salvation. God has done ALL the work to save us.

When God saves us, he gives us a new heart, a resurrected soul and we will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to everything that we read in the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice. But again, that obedience contributes nothing to our salvation; it is a gift of God, the result of our salvation.

Thanks for clarifying David. So, your pro-baptism and encourage people to be baptized then?

Based on the comments I had the impression that you were against it and so I must have misinterpreted.

Because the original commenter said baptism is very important, but it seemed like you disagreed with that and dismissed it as a "work." Good works are good, though. Faith without works is dead, the Bible says. That is very different than someone falsely thinking they are earning salvation.

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

What's interesting is Jesus uses baptism and salvation in the same sentence here, suggesting there could be a correlation. I know you say there's zero correlation, but its interesting how Jesus phrased this. So, either salvation is related or it isn't related. Only one is true and what Jesus meant. Sure would be a bummer to guess wrong on that one and downplay something Jesus said to do. I think because Jesus said to do it, I encourage others to be baptized and think its wrong to discourage people from obeying Jesus's commands.

The Bible use the word Baptism in two ways and the context determines the meaning, as one of the commenters indicated.

There is 1) the effectual baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs when God applies salvation to one of His Elect by giving them their Resurrected Soul. That is becoming Born Again.

And there is 2) water baptism which is a ceremonial sign to be observed by the New Testament local churches and congregations during the church age pointing to the nature of salvation, like the physical circumsision of the Old Testament.

Mark 16:16 is speaking of the Baptism of God the Holy Spirit, i.e. Salvation ( Exe 36:25 ) which continues throughout time as God saves His Elect right up until Christ returns on the clouds of glory at the Last Day.

I believe the church age ended with the beginning of the Great Tribulation which is the day in which we are now living during which God has abandoned the local churches and congregations and has commanded true believers to flee the local churches. Read Matt 24. And God continues to save His Elect OUTSIDE the local churches during the Latter Rain.

Therefore, like physical circumsision of the Old Testament time, we are no longer to observe the New Testament sign of water baptism.

Hello David

You have written "If we are trusting that obedience to any commandment of God, including the sign of water baptism, is a requirement for our salvation or affects our salvation in any way, we have a works / grace gospel that cannot save and we are under the Law and not under Grace". So obedience to God has no effect on our salvation. Likewise disobedience to Go has no effect on our salvation too,. So I can spent my whole life in disobedience, which is sinning and still be saved, because sometime in my life I was born again by God, right? Logical sequence, isn't it?

Matthew 7:21-2e "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

Those who say Lord, Lord are saved people or not? They are saved because in the next verse Jesus talks about them saying that they prophesied and made miracles. But there were left out of Heaven. Why? Because they were sinning (workers of iniquity), although been gifted. Why does Jesus tells them that He doesn't know them? Because Jesus only knows His true children, people who obey Him and keep themselves pure and clean of sin. A father knows his own children. Children must look like their father, not have the appearance of a stranger, say of devil's

Now I have a few questions for you (another topic):

1. When were the apostles saved(born again)? Before or after Pentecost (when they received the Holly Spirit)? When were they water baptized, before or after Pentecost? When were the Samaritans that Phillip preached to, baptized in The Spirit? Before or after water baptism? When were they saved, before or after Spirit baptism?

2. Water baptism preceds or follows salvation(new birth)?

GBU

alex1939...David you are right when Jesus shed his blood on the cross it was a new Covenant in his blood..Impling an internal cleasing of the Heart...which was the baptism of Promise H.G. baptism...The only gift of God...Water baptism was an external cleasing the old covenant..requiring only the blood of an animal...But this New Covenant is by the blood of Gods only son Christ Jesus a washing of the hearts...3 Times its recorded in the N.T. John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G.and fire...Which is that baptism of Promise ( only 1 baptism of Promise ) which is baptism of the H.G...When Jesus said behold i send the promise of my father upon you it was baptism of the H.G. A washing of the heart...That New Covenant an internal baptism of the hearts...I will give you a new hearts and a new spirit via his seed the words of that NEW COVENANT...Thats y the lord was so upset with Peter commanding water baptism for the remission of sins...Telling Peter what i have made clean ( by the blood of his son that New Covenant on Calvary)...do not call common or unclean.. ACTS 10:12..All the unclean animals in that sheet was the Church that was made clean by the blood of Jesus via that New Covenant...perfectly clean not needing water baptism as peter was commanding....After that Peter understood the vision he said then remembered the words of our lord John baptised you with water,..but i will baptise you with the H.G...An internal washing of the hearts and minds as judgement must begin at the house of God as our bodies are the house of God...John the bap. gave us water baptism and John said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...Even in the O.T. without the shedding of blood there was no remission of sins...Once you understand the enormity of Calvary that New Covenant in his blood you will not mention any other cleanser..There is no fuller on earth that can whiten us like his blood...When Jesus said its finished nothin else we can do.

Water Baptism is a WORK, a SIGN of the washing away of our sins when God has performed if we have become saved that was to be done during the Church Age, i.e. that period of time when the local churches and congregations were the corporate representation of the kingdom of God on this earth; just as Circumsision was to be done as a sign of the cutting away of our sins in salvation during the time that the nation of Isreal was the corporate representation of God's kingdom.

Neither water baptism nor circumsision contribute anything whatsoever to salvation. Just like no WORK of any kind that we do contributes anything toward our salvation. Unfortunatly many churches and denominations fell into the snare of looking at the SIGN of water baptism as having some efficacy toward our salvation. And as a result those churches developed a do-it-yourself works / grace gospel that cannot save. And this is one of the reasons why God's judgement has come upon the local churches and congregations in our day, I am sorry to say.

So God's "judgment" is going to come upon anyone OBEYING God?

Eze 36:24-31

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

Adamthat is not what I said.

Water baptism during the Church Age, like circumcision during the Old Testament time beginning with Abraham, was a physical act commanded to be performed by God's people as a sign pointing to a spiritual aspect of salvation which is performed entirely by God. But neither of these signs had any efficacy regarding salvation.

If we are trusting that obedience to any commandment of God, including the sign of water baptism, is a requirement for our salvation or affects our salvation in any way, we have a works / grace gospel that cannot save and we are under the Law and not under Grace. Read Galatians. God does ALL of the WORK to save us.

The Old Testament seventh day sabbath was a ceremonial law pointing to this important truth. Remember what happened to the man that picked up a few sticks on the sabbathGod said to stone him to death.

Hi David0920. I've been following this thread & your thoughts. I know that your emphasis on the requirement of water baptism, is not to deny its relevance & importance, but that the act of water baptism can never add anything more to the salvation granted to us by faith. If it (or anything else) could, then it's no longer a salvation by faith. But if I might also add:

Why does this matter of baptism become a point of argument (not here only but in the Church), when the Word is clear? My belief is that the Church today, at least since the departure of the apostolic age, have gone away from the understanding & practise of water baptism. Here, I'm not referring to any of the Jewish baptisms or even John's baptism, but those of the Jew or Gentile who respond in faith & confession to the claims of Christ. When we study the Scriptures, we find certain practises of water baptism:

a. Jesus' command to the disciples ( Matthew 28:19,20) were to them & those after them who preach or lead people to Christ. The command to baptize is given to the preacher/evangelist & NOT to the 'baptizee' (the 'new-born in Christ').

b. Water baptism went hand-in-hand with repentance & confession. It was not an optional extra (as we see in the accounts such as Peter's preaching that added 3000 souls; Saul's conversion; Cornelius; etc.). Converts weren't given an option to get baptized or not - if you turned to Christ from Judaism or idolatry, you were baptized, or else your conversion was spurious.

But what we see today, is that Church leaders/evangelists in the greater part, don't baptize straightaway after a soul's conversion, preferring a length of time to see stability & growth in the convert. Some even fail to bring up baptism at all. A pastor once announced, "we'll be having a baptism service four Sundays from now, those who feel led to be baptized, please come & see me". I was horrified; is this scriptural? The onus to be baptized is not on the convert - always the evangelist.

I'll never understand what the big deal is about avoiding baptism or claiming it's just a work and nothing more and that it's not essential to salvation. Jesus said it is. "Believers" go out of their way to avoid it. Faith without works is dead. You know what else is works? Faith and belief. Look further into this. Dismiss it if you will. Better to obey God's word if you are a believer than to save yourself before being saved. I can't stress it enough.

I agree. It sure seems like Christians are eager to disobey Jesus and what He spoke in Matthew 28:19. Coming up with every possible rationalization to not follow Jesus's words while at the same time claiming to be a Jesus follower. God is the judge and sure He is big and powerful enough to make exceptions and allow anyone in paradise He wants, like the thief on a cross, maybe someone on their death bed who decides to follow Jesus. But why would someone whose goal is to follow Jesus work so hard to NOT follow Jesus? Ashamed? Embarrassed? Mark 8:38 Matthew 10:32-33 It seems like a Christian that just doesn't agree with THAT part of Christianity, but the rest of it? Seems like an enormous risk to take in my opinion, almost like a heart of pride and rebellion has something to do with this resistance.

Acts 2:38 - some silently add a "Do NOT..." in front of this verse. Could satan be involved in this? He sure likes deceiving Christians into doing the opposite of what Jesus tells them.

John 14:15 - Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Does someone who doesn't obey Jesus truly love Jesus then?

100% brother! I couldn't have said it better myself.

alex1939...Benny GBU I love your post...But lemme remind you there are 2 kinds of baptism as Jesus told the Woman at the well of 2 kinds of water...Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again Jacobs well the Old Covenant...water baptism ...But the water that i shall give him shall be a well of water springing up unto every lasting life...Thats H.G. BAPTISM The gift of God... John 4:21...That New Covenant in his blood...When he took the cup he said this is the New Covenant in my blood drink ye all of it...Thats y John the bap. said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...Not water baptism but the Blood of the lamb of God...Even in the O.T. without the shedding of blood there was no remission of sins...They cd not apply water to the doorpost they cd only apply the blood to the doorposts...When i see the blood i will pass over you....ty Jesus..I kiss you my son.

....Jesus knew that all of his disciples had been water baptised but he warns them if i wash thee not you will have NO PART WITH ME...Which speaks volumes of a greater baptism in his blood...All the water in the world cd not redeem mankind from his sin nature...the curse of Adam...In adam we all die but in Christ we will all live b/c of his Blood that New Covenant...Its not our personal hygiene that defiles its our hearts that defiles us...When he washed their feet it was really a heart washing..As he said its the things that come from a mans hearts that defiles him...Not his feet...But b/c of Judas who was his old friend that ate at his table that lifted up his HEEL against Jesus he had to wash their feet... Psalms 51...The heel is part of the foot but is just symbolic of the heart..As satan had entered the heart of Judas to betray him...Thus he washed their feet...Everything was in metaphors and parables but is revealed unto babes the H.G..That which is born of the spirit is the H.G...When Jesus said behold i sent the Promise of my father upon you that was baptism of the H.G...GBU

I totally understand where you are coming from and i respect what you've studied, for sure. I agree that we need that baptism of the holyghost, but may the reader learn and understand our conversation... The water, blood and spirit all agree in one. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. To bind or loose. Peter was chosen for the Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles to obey the gospel of death, burial, and resurrection. He preached it at Pentecost. Philip preached it to the Samaritans, but Peter had to be there for them for the laying on of hands to receive the spirit. The Gentiles received the spirit of God first while Peter preached to them... He still commanded them to be baptized. Baptism isn't a side piece for declaration of joining the church or professing your faith so others can see. It's a commandment and must be obeyed as, again, the water, blood and spirit all agree in one. The gospel isn't just death. It isn't just burial. It isn't just resurrection. It's all. All three mentioned. You can't do one and disregard the other. Baptism doesn't discard Jesus death on the cross. We die when we repent. We receive remission of sins when we are baptized in Jesus name and being filled with God's spirit? We can't do that. It's a promise if you obey. That's God's business, but... It is a promise nonetheless. Jesus was baptized in water and still commanded it to be so. That's it. It can be argued, but why? Jesus said it, thats it that settles it. The apostles agreed and we who live now should obey it as well. Paul gave a great description of what baptism for remission of sins looks like in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2. The Red Sea crossing was a type and shadow of obedience to going down in the water. Do not disregard baptism in water. It's easily the most proven act throughout the Bible and it is a necessity. Look back at Apollos in Acts. He was fervent in spirit and instructed by God (knowing only the baptism of John) same with the five in Acts 19.