Bible Discussion Thread

Greetings! I attend a church that I love - the leadership, the goals, and objectives - and I "feel" like I'm on solid ground in general.

However, the leadership seems to push "speaking in tongues" over the basics of Christianity (e.g., Jesus says the greatest among you will be your servant and our Father in the faith Paul teaches that prophecies will fail, tongues cease, and knowledge will pass away.) Of course, what I'm referring to isn't really "speaking in tongues." It's a private prayer language that is spewed publicly and privately and is regarded as acceptable regardless of occasion and venue.

What the leadership refers to as "prayer language," serves zero purpose other than a measuring stick for the leadership to separate "the men from the boys" as far who is baptized by the Holy Spirit. So technically, they are not "speaking in tongues." In fact, it reminds me more of the scenario outlined in the story about the Tower of Babel.

In addition, a goodly sum of the people who use this prayer language and are allegedly baptized by the Holy Spirit have anger issues, they are covenant breakers, and they exhibit issues relating to self control - and the list goes on. So even if what that they are experiencing is "the real deal," a significant number of this "true blue elect" are ostensibly lack luster. The Pastor has even cited a friend who "was baptized in the Holy Spirit," spoke in the prayer language, and yet continued on in a struggle with violent behavior.

I'm the worship leader in the church. I do not speak the Tower of Babel prayer language, and while I don't own it, I could easily be made to feel like a substandard, 2nd class Christian. My goal is not to focus on anyone's shortcomings as we must all love each other; however, I feel like there is a HUGE inconsistency in what I know for a fact that the Holy Spirit accomplishes vs. the fruit (or lack thereof) that is regularly exhibited by these spiritual he-men who possess this prayer language.

i can urge you is to leave that church unless if you would like to make a change

1. God the holy spirit doesn't force anyone. on John 3:16 its written (whoever) so anything that is Pushing and forcing is purely demonic

2.Theres no where in the bible that says we need to have a prayer language in-fact its written Gods message has been sent in all language making it so easy even for a person who has never stepped inside a class room can call on the father by just making a simple prayer in faith( i will look it up for you later

3.we are the salt of this world perhaps you should stand firm and teach all of them about the word of God and explain to them. what the bible says.

4 refer to my channel in YouTube at (Helva danko) have made a short video about false Prophets and pastors of today.

Hello Duncan. I agree with you about 1. (but not that demonic you say) and 3. But let's talk about 2.

Should one pray in unknown tongues? Let's see what the Bible says about that.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 14:1-5

"1 - Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy

2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, BUT UNTO GOD (so tongues are for speaking to God not to people): for no man understandeth him (because he talks in unknown tongues/foreign languages) ; howbeit in the spirit (so it is the Spirit who gives those tongues) he speaketh mysteries (no one understands).

3 - But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 - HE THAT SPEAKETH IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE EDIFIETH HIMSELF; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 - I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE WITH TONGUES, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret (so no one understands if there is nobody who can interprete), that the church may receive edifying"

a. So, Paul suggests that all should speak(pray) in tongues.(verse 5).

b. When one speaks in unknown tongues then what they say is for God, they glorify God (verse 2)

c. It is the Spirit who gives tongues (verse 2), nobody understands (verse 2), unless there is somebody who can interprete (verse 5)

d. The purpose that the Spirit gives tongues to somebody is for him to be edified (sanctified) (verse 4)

Some other points about tongues as well.

1 Cor 14:18 "I (Paul) thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all"

1 Cor 14:15 "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." So one may pray or praise with their mind (so they know what they say) or with the Spirit (so they don't know what they say)

There is more... But how about talking about prophesing?

GBU

lets pray To God to Give us Understanding His word is pure than gold more to be desired Amen.

Hi,

Purely it is a gift from God right and he gives it to whoever right so you cant teach to anyone how to have a gift which only God give freely now lets us look at this event when the prophet prayed that his servants eyes my be open and there ware Gods angles and Saturn angles involved.

- 2 Kings 6:17-20

17 And Elisha prayed, "Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see." Then the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

(As only the servant of God was able to see but Prayed)

so lets look at

- 1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; , now as we can see The church leaders are

(However, the leadership seems to push "speaking in tongues" over the basics of Christianity) This is not what Jesus said, he said preach not enforce and as you have mention speaking in tongues is the gift which comes by the grace of God not by men telling you to speak or now is the time to speak.

This leadership is purely emphasizing their own lie which is not scriptural and the fact that is written in the latter days they will be such teaching which indicates they have departed from the faith or to put more basic they don't teach the word of God

Which we know faith camas by hearing and by hearing the word the word of God

(So they are giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils)

and lastly

Acts 2:4

4.The ware filled with the Holy Spirit and started speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave them Utterance

note the Two Things here Filled and then they ware given utterance

as the writer has pointed out the church leaders are forcing this on people its not from God

so there are only two things either with God or Saturn

2 Kings 6:16

And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

we see the two kingdom brought out to the

Hello again Duncan.

I would like to go a bit further on. Lets talk about Spirit Baptism.

Many have the belief that when one is born again by the Spirit, then they are actually baptized in the Spirit. Is that so or not?

Lets look at the apostles. They were obviously born again still when Jesus was not crucified yet, they were water baptized, they were clean as Jesus said, they were sent by Jesus to missions... BUT were they Spirit Baptized? The answer in no, they weren't. They were baptized in the Spirit on Pentecost, Acts 2.

Lets see the Samaritans in Acts 8. After Philipp preached Jesus to them, the whole city believed and they were baptized in water (so they were born again) and they had a lot of joy. BUT were they baptized in the Spirit yet? No they weren't. The apostles came there later on, they laid hands on them and so they received the Spirit.

When Paul meets those disciples in Ephesus ( Acts 18), he asks them if they were baptized in the Spirit? Strange question if one is baptized in the Spirit when born again, isn't it? Obviously those people were reborn since they were already disciples and Paul assumed that they were water baptized (because he asked them in what name were they water baptized)

Other christians believe that when one is water baptized then they get the Spirit as well. BUT when was Cornelious baptized in the Spirit? Before or after he was baptized in water? Obviously before. When was he born again? This time at the same time as he was Spirit baptized. But this is an exception, not like the rest cases.

So during new birth the believer is not baptized in the Spirit as well. New birth is done by the Spirit but the Spirit doesn't dwell in them yet. Spirt baptism is a separate event. And the external sign that somebody has been baptized in the Spirit. as shown in Acts, is speaking in unknown tongues. So when the Bible says that one is praying in Spirit it always implies that they speak in tongues.

Now if you like we could talk about prophesing.

Hi sorry for the late response

Firs let us give thanks to God and Jesus our lord and savior whom died on the cross for our sins, and to all that will read this message and the rest that we have posted before .

i believe Jesus is the son of and he died on the cross for our sins and rose on the 3rd and all authority has been given to him on heaven and earth,

i believe all the scripture is the written word of GOD and is the pure word of God and which touches the heart of the wise and makes him simple in truth amen.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

As its written in the scripters ,God the Holy spirit gives gift unto me according to his will and we know some

Ephesians 4:11-16

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

as you have stated earlier there true men of God out there serving God with all their heart mind and soul ,Their hearts which is set upon heaven where their gift of life lies In Jesus the living water.

But as i mention earlier the devil has came from within the church and not outside of the church and has deceived many who have not fully stayed their minds upon the rock Jesus Christ and are not committed Christian( Believers) hence any wind of doctrine preached by this men that want power and prestige and whom God has not sent but have sent themselves .

Ephesians 4:11-16

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, a

Hello again Duncan.

Are tongues a gift or are tongues a sign of the baptism of the Holly Spirit? Lets do a research.

Acts 2. The apostles and the rest who were gathered in the upper floor are baptized in the Spirit. How is that shown? By talking in tongues, There wasn't any other sign. If tongues is a gift then all 120 got the same gift?

Acts 9. Cornelious and his own were baptized in the Spirit (verses Acts 9:44-46), they started speaking in tongues.

Acts 8. Philipp goes to Samaria, people believe and get baptized in water. The apostles go there and lay hands on believers who get the HS. Simon offers money to aquire the same gift as the apostles. Question. How did Simon realize that believers got the HS? What did he see that made him understood that? What was the external sign of that? The Bible doesn't say, but I think it is obvious (the whole city got the same gift?)

Acts 18. Paul meets some disciples in Ephessus. After having a discussion with them, he baptizes them in water. Verse Acts 18:6. They started speaking in tongues and prophesying

Many times in Acts it says that the apostles were filled with the Spirit when talking/preaching to people. How did they know that they were filled with the Spirit? What made them realize that? Was there a sign?

In Cor 12:4:11 the spiritual gifts are described. It is true that one of them is "kinds of tongues". What are these? These are different kinds of tongues, it is not the same as the tongues given in Spirit baptism. Think of that, Verse 7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.". So gifts are given to "profit withal", that is for the profit of the church. But in 1 Cor 14 it says that if there is no interpreter then that believer should stop talking in tongues, let him talk to himself and God. Also he edifies himself. So what is the profit for the congregation? No profit at all for the congregation, only for the individual. So it is not a gift, it is the sign of bapt

Sorry but I didn't manage to end my previous post properly.

So there is a difference between "tongues" as a sign of Spirit baptism(and as a means of individual edifying) and "kinds of tongues" which is a spiritual gift for the profit of all. So the crucial question is. What about nowadays? My belief is that the Bible was directed by the Spirit to be written so that we are given examples what to do(and what not to do). If tongues do not exist any more, what was the purpose of the Spirit to write all those things? So how should our churches function now? Where are the directions/instructions for the church service?

I know that there are "churches" where "weird" things happen in the name of the Truth. But those bad examples do not cancel the Word of God, what is written is written and cannot be erased.

GBU

Hello Duncan

I think we are gradually coming to a common ground

I didn't say that what they do in Ray's church is right. I said what they may do is encouraging people to ask for the Holly Spirit. Sometimes we may get a bit over enthusiastic with that and may do something that it is a bit more than just encouraging people, maybe push them asking for the Holly Spirit actually. This is obviously wrong, it is a mistake. But nobody can say that it is a demonic action. A demon pushing people to get the Holly Spirit? Does this make sence? Obviously not. We must be always very careful what we call demonic. Because if that is an action of the Holly Spirit then we are in danger of blaspheming the Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin

In your previous post you wrote 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" My question to you is. Who does according to the Word of God, those who reject tongues or those who accept them? Those who do according to what is written or those who do their own? Those who say that tongues must still exist in the church or those who claim that those things were for past times? Who has departed from the gospel, what are the seducing spirits, which are the doctrines of devils? Maybe Paul himself who spoke in tongues more than anybody else in his time had devilish doctrines, maybe he had departed from the faith he preached, maybe he gave attention to seducing spirits? I think the answers to those is obvious. Besides that what Paul writes to Timothy is about other things. Verses 2-3 "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath ..." He talks about eating and marrying

In 1 Corinthians 14 much of the function of the ancient church is described during the congregation. Which churches do like that? These are the right ones. My opinion.

Part 1

Hi Ray.

There are churches who believe that speaking in tonuges were only for the early period of the church and churches who believe that they are for all ages. The former ones are usually the ones that do not have them occuring in their function mainly the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches and many Protestant churches. The latter are called Charismatic or Pentecostal churches.

So I have a question and my question is. If the tongues were only for that early period like all those spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 why were they included by the Holly Spirit in the Bible? What was God's purpose talking about things that will not occur during the vast majority of the existence of the church? Why didn't God give instructions for some other function of the church to follow later on? Why God keeps us busy reading about history things? Just for historical knowledge? No other purpose?

Is there a verse in the Bible that suggests that those things were for the past only? I cannot find any.

The verse you wrote about ( 1 Cor 13:8-10) is refering to a future time when we will be in Heaven. Then knowledge, prophesy, tongues will cease. There will be no reason for those then.

But now, 1 Corinthians 14:1-5

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

Please read those carefully. (Oh please God, don't waste my time with past things that do not occur now. Or they still occur now?)

Part 2

Should one pray loudly in tonques in church? 1 Corinthians 14:26-29

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

BUT IF THERE BE NO INTERPRETER, LET HIM KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCH; AND LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF, AND TO GOD.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge."

Oh sorry those were for the past times too. So what is it for us now? How should our churches function now? Where are the directions for us now? Which scripture?

Dear Ray. the Holly Spirit is not like a magic stick that will transform a frog to a prince. God's Spirit does not violate our free will and our free choices. It is given to us by God as a spiritual weapon to help us in our fight against sin. But we have to want to fight against sin, If we don't then the Spirit can not do anything (without our permission) or does as much as we allow Him to do. So one may be baptized in the Spirit and their life are still a mess because they do not allow the Spirit changing them. So do not wonder if you see people like the ones you mentioned. They do exist in every church.

I don't think the leadership of your church push people speaking in tongues. They probably try to push or encourage people to ask for the baptism of the Holly Spirit which is shown externally by speaking in tongues.

GBU