Bible Discussion Thread

I am a truth seeker.

And the following comments are not intended to cause contention but rather create a discussion in the contents and passages within the Bible.

And, I, being a believer of the Book of Mormon and a seeker of the truth, believe the words of God to Ezekiel are speaking of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and I'm interested in your thoughts

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: ( Ezekiel 37:16)

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. ( Ezekiel 37:19)

And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. ( Ezekiel 37:17)

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: ( Ezekiel 37:22)

The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph becoming on stick to gather Isreal.

The writings of the prophets in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 5:16) knew there genealogy being from the tribe of Joseph.

Therefore, with much certainty, the book of Judah is the Bible and Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph, I believe.

What are your thoughts?

Furthermore, Isaiah also saw the coming forth of the Book of Mormon saying,

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed( Isaiah 29:11)

And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. ( Isaiah 29:18)

Paul Sir in all your replies either your not looking at entire context or God talking to Moses face to face is a figure of speech look it up that's why anyone has got

To study God's Word honestly looking at context or who he's talking to at the time

meaning the way he dealt with the children of Israel is not the same as he deals

With the church of God. Jesus Christ came for the lost sheep of the house of

Israel that's why all of His communication has eastern thought or customs

Pertaining to the people, they rejected Him which opened the door for all to receive

God's Grace. As I said there are many things to consider when working the

Scripture.

Paul. Another point to bring to your thinking God's Word in the Church Epistles

Tells us to put on the mind of Christ by working God's Word and Romans12:2

Renewing our minds or changing thought to line up with scripture in what we do and

How we do it. No other book gives spiritual instruction strictly pertaining to

Conduct in the church of God the Body of Christ. Colossians 1:24.

Paul. You made a statement I can't buy that is that the bible Gods Word

Contradicts itself impossible. Either it's not understood according to ones

Own thinking or taken out of context or not worked in original language or

Not understood according to eastern thought but make no mistake it is the

ONLY PERFECT BOOK!

Henry

You said,

You made a statement I can't buy that is that the bible Gods Word

Contradicts itself impossible.

I don't say the Bible contradicts itself to say the Bible is false.

I'm saying the Bible contradicts itself because it was compiled by man and translated by man; therefore, there are flaws.

Please provide your insight on the following not being a contradiction,

For with God nothing shall be impossible. ( Luke 1:37)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ( Hebrews 6:4-6)

And please tell me who provoked David, God or Satan?

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ( 2 Samuel 24:1)

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. ( 1 Chronicles 21:1)

I have answered your questions but you have not answered mine.

I don't want to cause contention I like the discussion for truth.

Paul. I never said the word of God contradicts itself!

Hello Paul,

I hope you don't mind me stepping in here, but I would like to add that anything is possible with God except sinning or doing evil. God will never cross that boundary because His essential nature is unable to do so. He is absolutely pure and sinless. He is without shadow or hint of corruption. He is infinitely righteous in all of His ways.

He could destroy all of creation in just one word if His will was to do so. He could have today be the day of Christ's return if His wisdom determined that history is at its end. He could end the lives of all who are unredeemed instantly. But He does not do this due to His mercy and grace towards humanity that He created and redeemed through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is patient and longsuffering, willing that many more will come to believe the Gospel, even today, or tomorrow, or ten years from now. We are to trust in His wisdom and will, knowing He loves every person He creates and desires for each person to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ int the Gospel. He also has empowered the Gospel by the Holy Spirit, to bring conviction of sin, repentance, faith, and regeneration to those who hear it preached. So, let us concentrate on bringing the Gospel to any who will openly hear it, that they may receive the salvation that is only in Jesus Christ.

We may never be able to resolve the seeming contradictions or paradoxes in the Scriptures. But, I believe if we endeavor to read the Scripture to gain knowledge of the saving grace of God throughout history and not to be critical of the Scripture, we will discover such truth that these seeming contradictions will not seem such large matters to us in light of the redeeming work of God in history and in recorded in the words of Scripture.

pt 2

It would be more meaningful if there were nothing, nothing in the Bible to support the existence of the other stick of Joseph.

Can you show me in the Bible anything whatsoever to support for the writings of Mahammad?

Can you show me in the Bible anything whatsoever to support the belief in Buddhism?

Can you show me in the Bible anything whatsoever to support the belief in Hinduism?

Dear Paul,

Thank you for being accepting of me entering into this thread. You have said much beyond what I brought into the conversation. You did speak to what I posted, but went off in a direction I did not ask for nor seek.

I am not challenging you today, nor am I planning to respond to yours. I am praying for you, though. We all need that and can minister to one another in that way. Your posts have given me much information for me to know how to pray for you. That I do today.

Dear Paul, you have not dismayed me at all. I do like to concentrate on the Gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ by faith through the grace provided by the Holy Spirit. This is the best news of all for anyone.

But I do not think anyone on here needs to limit the scope of their posts, nor do I think we should not discuss paradoxes or what seems to be contradictions in the Scriptures. I don't mind at all that your response to my initial post went far a wide of what I was focused on. I just sort of bowed out because I did not want to enter such a discussion on these matters. So, no problem, Paul.

I will be reading what you post and will gladly join in when I feel it is good for me to do so. I hope you have a very blessed evening. And I will encourage you to continue to study the Bible everyday. It is the best book every written because it is God's revealed truth to humanity throughout all of the ages of history.. Everyone can learn God's truth within its pages and ultimately, read what the Gospel message is and respond in faith to believe it and put one's trust in Jesus alone for salvation.

Hello GiGi

pt 1

I appreciate your thoughts.

I'm glad you stepped in to share your convictions.

And I agree with what you say

"but I would like to add that anything is possible with God except sinning or doing evil."

"He is absolutely pure and sinless. He is without shadow or hint of corruption. He is infinitely righteous in all of His ways."

"He is patient and longsuffering, willing that many more will come to believe the Gospel, even today, or tomorrow, or ten years from now."

And to become a son or daughter of God one must come unto Christ.

But I respectfully disagree with,

"We may never be able to resolve the seeming contradictions or paradoxes in the Scriptures."

We are commanded to speak the same thing ( 1 Corinthians 1:10)

We are commanded to speak sound doctrine ( Titus 2:1)

We are to be one body in Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12)

And we are that body of Christ the was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities: upon whom the chastisement of our peace is upon; (paraphrased)

and with his stripes we are healed. ( Isaiah 53)

I feel prompted by the Spirit of the God of Israel to say the things I'm saying.

I've read the Book of Mormon and Bible over and over and over again.

I believe the 2 books are gathering Israel.

I believe the resurrected Jesus Christ came to the people on the American continent to gather the other sheep Christ spoke of while in Jerusalem. ( John 10:16)

If you had a conviction of things in Christ our Lord, wouldn't you be moved to share?

But because of the many false, ludicrous doctrines in the Mormon Church fostered by its own Church leaders, many stay away from the Scripture/Book of Mormon.

I respectfully challenge anyone reading this to please show me in the Book of Mormon something contrary to the Bible.

If you do so I will no longer believe the Book of Mormon.

I have provided Biblical Scripture after Scripture indicating support for the Book of Mormon with the Bible.

Paul. With God nothing is impossible is true and the context of Hebrews is

In reference to mpeople not God.

In reference to any temptation or provoking remember James 1:13 God can't be

Tempted neither tempts he any man. Satan or the devil or our adversary is

Constantly attacking God people to trip them up and accuse them before the

True God. The anger of the lord many times is shown old testament when

Israel giot into idol worship or a man of God disobeyed an order.

Henry

Thank you for your thoughts.

I believe the Bible, every word.

You said,

"In reference to any temptation or provoking remember James 1:13

God can't be

Tempted neither tempts he any man."

I believe James 1:13.

I also believe my Lord when He taught us how to pray saying to our Heavenly Father,

And lead us not into temptation ( Luke 11:4) ( Matthew 6:13)

And when God told Moses He would harden Pharaoh's heart that Pharaoh would not let the children of Israel go( Exodus 10:27)

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ( Exodus 7:13)

The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart until the destroying angel came and killed all the first born of Egypt.

And the Lord did so to shew his power by Pharaoh. ( Romans 9:17)

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. ( Romans 9:18)

Henry, why would our Lord tell us to pray to our Heavenly Father saying,

...and lead us not into temptation?

Why would the God of Isreal harden Pharaoh's heart until He destroyed all the first born of Egypt?

If the Lord does not tempt us, how did He harden Pharaoh's heart?

Do you see the contradictions?

Nevertheless, God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and, whom he will he hardeneth.

Paul. I see God doing what had to be done to keep his promise to man to

Bring His word to pass for us to have a Saviour to defeat our adversary God's arch

Enemy. When Noah was done with the ark and all the animals and Noah family

Was inside who does it say shut the door God. Why do you think God all loving

and almighty closed the door because he knew when Noah's family would hear

The screams of people drowning they would be compelled to open the door.

The problem with that is if someone got it they would have murdered them

Because only Noah found grace with God. Then there would be no one believing

Or listening to God no faith!

Paul. This is not the format to explain what you believe is a contradiction but

It is not there .Another place in the scripture that says Saul received an evil spirit

From the lord impossible because God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

God is all mighty and is the giver and sustainer of life. When God almighty lifts

His hand of grace then who's allowed to exercise his power. Remember Jesus

Christ said The thief cometh not but to steal kill and destroy that is the devil's

Mode of operation and that is all he does.! There's more to this. Look in the

Gospels how !any times they tried to take by force or kill Jesus but it is written

His time was not yet.

Am going to have to make this short, much can be said on this subject, been a long day.

We are saved by Grace alone, through faith, but what is faith without works? It's dead, it is dead faith.

Our works is the only thing we take with us, they make up our Fine Linens, Our robes, It's one of the finest rewards ,, least ye walk naked in shame, throughout the millennium.

Revelation 19:8

Revelation 7:13

Revelation 7:14

Sorry I would like to do this more Justice, but we earn our fine linens, and robes through our works.

"Christ will come like a thief in the night" and take it, if we are not ready and watching 1 Thessalonians 5:2 ---- 2 Peter 3:10...

Read Matthew 24 starting at about v42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

If you're not ready, and are caught backsliding, all your works can be stolen from you, like a thief in the night. Be ready always, be watching always.

Hello Paul. Just to your point referenced by Ezekiel 37:16-19. If I may suggest, as a Truth seeker myself, that the two sticks mentioned by Ezekiel don't correlate to the joining of the Bible (Stick of Judah) to the Book of Mormon (Stick of Ephraim), rather to the people/nations themselves.

This whole chapter is about people, not books: Ezekiel 37:11, "these bones are the whole house of Israel". The 2 sticks becoming one stick in Ezekiel's hand represent Judah and Israel being united in the end days. One might then say, that Israel is already a nation today without a clear demarcation of Judah & Israel as a people or land boundaries, but I believe the intent of this prophecy from Ezekiel is that Israel will truly be one nation again with one King Who will rule over them; and this will be their Messiah Whom they once rejected & killed.

Ezekiel 37:21, 22. "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all."

I would also ask you Paul, though leaving aside the many discrepancies you've noticed in the Bible & my responding to them, have you read or studied more about Mormonism, Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, etc? Even such a writing suggesting that the Sun, Moon & Stars being inhabited, should cause one to withdraw swiftly. Just sharing a sample of those writings that you may not be aware of & to encourage you to search more deeply about this book & the people behind it & the other writings.

pt 2

Mormons will believe the Church leaders over Scripture and there is their downfall.

For Peter says, If ye rest the scriptures ye rest them to your own destruction. ( 2 Peter 3:16)

Page 2.

Even if we look at the BOM itself, how can one read it & accept what it says: that it's impossible for children to have a sin nature; that black skin is a sign of God's curse; by grace we are saved after all we can do; that at Christ's crucifixion, darkness would cover the face of the earth for three days; that Adam & Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit was necessary so they could have children & bring joy to mankind; of many high priests serving simultaneously & multiple temples in operation, are just a few declarations that should cause one to reject that book. And if we find apparent discrepancies in the Bible, they are usually a copyist's error, or something we can't fully understand for lack of more knowledge.

There are also truths in other religious books - I'm more acquainted with the Qur'an. But would I use it to help me to know God better & further my knowledge on biblical doctrines? Never. I find that the Bible has all the information that I need; I would like more, as we all might want, but what we have been given should be sufficient & we should be confident to believe in God's Word in its entirety. In my reading of BOM, I find nothing useful in there to attain further knowledge of God, rather a book of words that are often in opposition to the Bible & also lacking in historical credibility. And for these very reasons, I also refuse the OT & NT apocryphal books - they add nothing to the pure Word of God that attends to every need or question that I might have.

Page 1.

Thanks for your further comments, Paul.

To the 'two sticks being joined together', I can't offer any more on that, since I read the Ezekiel chapter differently to you & apply the meaning of the sticks to Israel & Judah, as the whole chapter is about people not books.

I wouldn't be able to comment whether certain people are from a particular tribe of Israel. Unless people can do a verifiable research to trace their ancestry to such a distant point, I generally leave off that discussion as I see it going nowhere and we end up with just opinions.

"Is the Bible gathering Israel?" By this I understand, is there a clear thread running through the Bible of Israel one day coming together & worshipping the LORD in Truth? There are several references to this: Jeremiah 31:31-34; Deuteronomy 30:1-6; Isaiah 41:8,9; Isaiah 11:10-12, are some of the Scriptures about the future re-gathering of Israel. There are of course, many references to Israel's other regatherings, i.e. from the captivities, etc.

Re: your belief in "both Bible & Mormon". Without even looking at the Book of Mormon (BOM) now, we just need to study the utterances of those men I mentioned previously, which should cause one to balk at the very nature of these men & the beliefs surrounding the LDS. If the Apostle Paul came out with an epistle speaking about the moon being inhabited by six foot men dressed like Quakers, I would look at Paul with great suspicion as also his other letters & probably wonder how much other falsehoods are found in the Bible. We can't isolate the BOM from what that church's leaders believed & taught, however ignorant they might have been of the truth. Just as today, both the preachers' words & the words of the Bible are weighed in together - and one or both might stand or fall as a result.

Hello Chris

pt 1

I appreciate your thoughts and insight.

I understand you don't believe Ezekiel is speaking of sticks as books.

And I will speak also on the many discrepancies you mentioned.

It does seem extremely coincidental the Book of Mormon people claim to be from the tribe of Joseph.

But I understand you don't see it that way.

The Lord tells Ezekiel to write upon the sticks,

take one stick, and write upon it, For Judah

then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph( Ezekiel 37:16)

The revelation says the sticks will be joined together and shall become one in thine hand( Ezekiel 37:17)

I believe these sticks are books and when the books are joined as one in the hand, just as the sticks are a record of each tribe coming together so they will gather Israel as one nation.

Please, Chris, answer this question

Is the Bible gathering Israel?

Regarding the discrepancies,

I know many false doctrines have been introduced into the Church by its own Church leaders.

And this is foretold in Mormon Scripture.

Of course, suggesting the Sun and Moon are inhabited is ludicrous.

It is mostly ludicrous because of what we know from science and astrology.

In Brigham Young's day the teaching was accepted because of the ignorance of the people.

Furthermore, beyond just this, there are many other false doctrines within the Church fostered by its own Church leaders.

Therefore, I believe only what is found in Scripture, both Bible and Mormon.

No Mormon Scripture speaks of life on the Sun or Moon.

No Mormon Scripture nor the Bible verifies the false doctrine that God the Father has a father.

No Mormon Scripture nor the Bible says Christ and Satan are brothers.

No Mormon Scripture nor the Bible says Mormons will be gods of their own planets.

These are only a few of the false doctrines introduced by Church leader for their own gain and praise.

But I believe only what is in Scripture.

If you seek the Truth you need look no further than the Bible .

But the Bible speaks of things to be revealed beyond what's written,

...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. ( Revelation 19:7)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ( John 16:13)

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. ( 1 Corinthians 2:10)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, ( 1 Cor. 14:39)

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: ( Acts 2:18)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: ( Acts 2:17)

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. ( Amos 3:7)

Hi Paul.

Pt 1.

You said

" But the Bible speaks of things to be revealed beyond what's written"

You given several scripture supposedly indicating the Holyspirit have more to reveal separate from God's written word.

I have to disagree with that, The Holyspirit reveals the truth in God's word and sanctify the believer. not to mention its many othe tasks. Seal, teach, ect...

The Holyspirit does not have unwritten revelation to reveal he will make what Jesus said "AND LATER WRITTEN" comprehensive to us.

John 14:25-26. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU.

Now concerning the supposed contradictions on Mat. 1:6 and Luke 3:31.

The bible says that Jesus will sit on the throne of King David. It also says that King Jeconiah, who is descended from David, will never have a descendant on the throne. So how can Jesus, apparently a descendant of Jeconiah, sit on the throne of David? First let's look at what the text says.

The Lord said to David on his deathbed.

2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee:

thy throne shall be established for ever.

It says the Messiah will sit on David's throne forever.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his (Messiah) government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

And that Jeconiah's descendants will not sit on that throne, (he is mentioned by name in Jer 22:28).

Jer 22:30 Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man (Jeconiah) down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.

See part 2.

Hi Spencer

pt 2

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ( James 1:5)

For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. ( Luke 12:12)

for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. ( Mark 13:11)

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. ( Matthew 10:20)

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And all the men were about twelve. ( Acts 19:6-7)

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ( 1 Corinthians 12:7, 8, 11)

If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. ( 1 Peter 4:11)

Hi Spencer

pt 1

Thank you for your insight.

You said you disagree that the Holy Spirit would reveal things beyond what is already written.

But there are many Biblical passages that say things will be revealed

I respectfully challenge you to please show me the Biblical passages to support your thoughts as I have done below to support the Spirit of God will reveal things, today.

If the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, how can there not be more prophecy?

How then could we say we have a testimony of Jesus but not believe in revelation?

When we pray to God for guidance, can the Spirit not help direct us today?

An angel appeared to Cornelius and told him to call for Peter and Peter brought Cornelius the Gospel.

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. ( Hebrews 13:2)

Do you believe angels are among us?

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? ( Hebrews 1:14)

And how can the Scripture be fulfilled Paul saying,

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3)

Even the Saints in the early days received revelations

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. ( 1 Corinthians 14:27)

If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. ( 1 Corinthians 14 30-31)

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. ( 1 Corinthians 14:26)

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ( Romans 8:9)

Paul.

Part 2.

Chuck Missler sums up the problem this way.

This curse created a rather grim and perplexing paradox: the Messiah had to come from the royal line, yet now there was a"blood curse" on that very line of descent! The genealogy of Jesus given by Matthew shows Mary's husband Joseph to be a descendant of David, Solomon, and Jeconiah. Does this imply that Joseph was in line to be king of Judah? IDK. If you compare this genealogy to 1 Chronicles 3:15-16, you will note that some kings are actually skipped, basically for wickedness - Genealogy of Jesus. Note also that Jeconiah is also called Jechonias, Coniah, and Jehoiachin. Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

But the genealogy given by Luke lists the ancestors of Mary. Notice that Nathan, not Solomon is listed. This neatly avoids the blood curse on Jeconiah. Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, In the Greek, Joseph is named without a definite article, meaning the genealogy is Mary's. The phrase "as was supposed" occurs in nearly all English translations; it is taken from enomizeto, meaning "by law", showing Jesus as the legal heir of Joseph. Joseph is considered more of a son than a son-in-law in this case.

So, it took a virgin birth to get around the blood curse of Jeconiah.

To shorten this article here's the conclusion.

In both these genealogies we have the house of David and the Throne of David fulfilled and it takes Christ around the blood curse of Jeconiah.

God bless

Paul.

You claim that Exodus 33:11 and Exodus 33:20 is a contradiction.

Exodus 33:9-20. And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the CLOUDY PILLAR DESCENDED, AND STOOD AT THE DOOR OF THE TABERNACLE, AND THE LORD TALKED WITH MOSES.

Paul I believe what is mentioned here is the Lord spoke to Moses "DIRECTLY" as a man speaks to his friend. He spoke to him from the cloudy pillar. Moses never saw his face. They interact as friends as Abraham interacted with the Lords angel in Genesis 18.

I believe the emphasis in verse 11 is on the Lord spoke to Moses as a friend and directly.

The children of Israel also saw the Cloudy pillar at the door as they did in Exodus 19:18 and Exodus 20:18-19. but they didn't speak to the Lord as Moses did.

AND ALL THE PEOPLE SAW THE CLOUDY PILLAR STAND AT THE TABERNACLE DOOR: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Verses 17-20. And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

There's no contradiction here.

God bless.

Hi Spencer

pt 3

Regarding speaking to the Lord face to face...

There are more than one instance where the Bible records this happened...

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, ( Deuteronomy 34:10)

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. ( Genesis 32:30)

Jacob boldly says, And my life is perserved...

Why else would Jacob say, And my life is preserved?

And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, ( Numbers 14:14)

And the Bible commands us to seek His face...

When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. . ( Psalms 27:8)

Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. ( Psalms 105:4)

Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually. ( 1 Chronicles 16:11)

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. ( 2 Chronicles 7:14)

The Mormons have a book of Scripture that tells us how Moses and others saw God face to face and lived.

Mormon Scripture says the only way man can see God face to face and live is to be out of the body having God's priesthood.

That explains the contradiction.

Hi Paul.

I suppose you are referring to this reply of mine.

"The Holyspirit does not have unwritten revelation to reveal he will make what Jesus said "AND LATER WRITTEN" comprehensive to us."

The key here is UNWRITTEN REVELATION.

Prophesy is WRITTEN Revelation. The verses you given is WRITTEN Revelation.

My point is there is no NEW Revelation apart from what has already been written.

For example there is not another prophet coming to give us a word that hasn't been written in the Bible.

The verses you have given is written but nothing saying to look for something NEW or someone NEW.

Are far as Jacob goes he wrestled with the pre Incarnation of Christ!!

And all those other scriptures you give that says seek Gods face doesn't mean SEE Gods face.

The Hebrew word for "face" in the Old Testament is often translated "presence." When we seek the face of God, we are seeking His presence. The call to seek God's face was issued to His people because they had abandoned Him and needed to return to Him.

Again this is not a contradiction but a misunderstanding.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Would you like to discuss the discrepancy between the book of Mormons and the Bible? If so let's do a separate thread.

God bless.

Hi Spencer

Would you like to discuss the discrepancy between the book of Mormons and the Bible? If so let's do a separate thread.

Yes, let's look at doing this I think it will be helpful.

Thank you

Hi Paul.

Thanks for responding.

We will do a thread on the discrepancy "meaning the differences between Mormons Theology and Christianity. Also the Bible and the book of Mormons for clarity and educational purposes.

Let's not get into topics like polygamy perhaps until we're towards the end or perhaps not at all. I don't want to make this a battlefield. Besides I'm not sure that Mormons truly practice this at-large today. However we may need to explain the origin of it. "Separately, maybe towards the end ".

I am a Christian, and I am no scholar.

I've done very little research on the Mormons.

May I ask, are you a Mormon?

S.Spencer. Brother notice in Mathew chapter one verse one the generation

Of Jesus Christ singular not plural the believing line then there's what you shared

Being born by Mary with pure blood because God was the contributor in that

Category Hebrews 2:14 He Jesus Christ took part of the same his blood was

Sinless because the life of the flesh is in the blood Leviticus 17:11 and that life

Came from God who created sperm in Mary.

Thanks Henry.

The book of the "generation" of Christ. singular as you mentioned.

The phrase "The book of the generation" is only mentioned 2 times, the other is Genesis 5:1. This is the book of the "generations" of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; here it is plural. I've heard there is a significance to this, However I haven't done much study in this and forgot what I have heard.

Paul , I have to be honest with you . I have had family who were involved with the mormons so I know a bit about them and their beliefs . I'm probably not the best person to enter a dialogue with you so if you would beg my pardon I shall respectfully bow out of this conversation .

Blackfoot

I respect your offer.

I know Mormonism has hurt a lot of people even destroyed lives.

I believe that is because of the many false doctrines introduced into the Church by its own Chruch leaders.

False doctrines like God the Father has a father.

Mormons will be gods of their own planets.

Christ and Satan are brothers.

Adam helped with the creation of this Earth.

Etc. etc

No Bible or Mormon Scripture supports the above listed false doctrines.

Thank you for your comments...

Hi Paul, welcome and I'm sure you'll find an interesting dialog in these forums.

I'm a truth seeker too and believe the Bible. I am interested in what you believe about these 3 questions...

Do you believe the Bible is 100% true and is God's word?

If so, do you believe Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14 and that He is God and created everything as it says in John 1:1-3?

And do you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is true that we're saved by grace and not by works?

God bless

Hi Adam

Do you believe the Bible is 100% true and is God's word?

Yes, I do Adam.

If so, do you believe Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14 and that He is God and created everything as it says in John 1:1-3?

Yes, I do Adam.

And do you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is true that we're saved by grace and not by works?

I believe both writings of James and Paul, meaning, we are saved by both grace and works because the two apostles contradict each other.

Going back to your first question,

Do you believe the Bible is 100% true and is God's word?

Yes, meaning, I don't believe Paul over James nor James over Paul but I believe both are teaching true doctrines making the entire Bible 100% true.

Paul says,

We are saved by grace through faith and not by works for if it is by works it is no more grace. (Ephesians and Romans)

Grace comes through faith...

And James says,

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. ( James 2:26)

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ( James 2:17)

The only conclusion to these doctrines and believing the Bible 100% and not just parts of it would be to say we are saved both by works and grace.

Making what the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi says,

We are saved by grace, after all we can doa true doctrine.

And solidifying Isaiah's doctrine which says,

They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. ( Isaiah 29:24)

Which, I believe, is speaking about the Book of Mormon.

Adam, do you believe Paul is correct? and do you believe James is also correct?

Hi Paul.

In James 2:14-16. we have the context and resolve

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

( If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?")

You see a similar verse here in

1 John 3:17. "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, HOW DWELLETH THE LOVE OF GOD IN HIM?"

The love of God IN YOU CAUSES YOU TO RESPOND WITH WORKS, It's a fruit of the spirit. you're "persuaded" From within.

You're not acting out faith or manifestating faith.

You're persuaded!!

If you don't respond "putting in the work" You are not persuaded!

Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

These scriptures don't contradict. Faith is dead without works and works is dead without Faith. God is not in you until he saves you and if you are not saved no matter what you do you can't please him. It is Christ faith in you that causes you to work!! This is why in James 2:18 he says "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

God doesn't accept works from a unclean person "the unsaved" in a attempt to make himself righteous.

Men righteousness is as filthy rags. If you are saved by faith you will work, If you won't work, your faith is vain.

God bless.

Well explained bro S. Spencer, as also from bro Adam's comments to Paul. I think of Philippians 2:12: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The apostle was writing, 'your salvation came by faith, now work out that faith (your salvation) in your lives, and do so with great seriousness & watchfulness'.

Salvation can never be by works alone, nor by faith plus works, or else it would no longer be of faith. Faith is trusting in God to give us His gift of salvation. Works is trusting in Ourselves to give us salvation - if this was so, even possible, Christ need not have died, & our salvation would be based on our efforts which would have guaranteed our rejection by God. But God-given faith must produce God-given works - we must give all diligence to it.