Dear Ronald, this conversation really gets very interesting. Both sides, we, have brought our points forward.
Whaw, many things to answer, I don't know where to start from.
a. Personally i don't rely much on verses in the Old Testament about life in Heaven since people's knowledge during those times about heavenly things and eternal life was very vague and limited. There was a progressive revelation about these things which was clarified and completed by Jesus in New Testament
b. In Acts 2"22-35 in verses 27 and 31 the word HADES is written in the greek text not HELL, actually everywhere where the greek text writes Hades the KJV Bible writes Hell, I don't know why because they are not really the same thing. I believe that Jesus' soul went to Hades in Abraham's bosom, that's why He said to that thief who was crucified next to Him that "today he would be with Him in Heaven". How do you explain that? If Jesus' soul was dead, how could the thief's soul be with Him in Heaven since they were both dead in the grave? In Acts 2"27 says "you will not abandon my soul in Hades". So God resurrected Jesus in the 3rd day, He didn't abandon Jesus in Hades.
The same in 1 Cor 15"55 "O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory?" is the proper translation. I have noticed that the KJV translates as grave almost everywhere where the greek writes death or Hades. Sometime I will make and post a list of all those.
c. Even if I accept the belief about an immortal spirit and mortal soul, this still doesn't explain how come Jesus went to the dead and preached the gospel to them. I think it is clear that Peter doesn't mean the spiritually dead but the physically dead people.Those verses, as you say, are hard to explain why, but it seems to me that Jesus gave a second opportunity to those who never heard of Him and the Gospel He preached(?)
Where did Jesus' soul go after He died on the cross? Acts 2:22-35 tell us. Pay attention to verses 27 & 31.
Also in 1 Peter 3:18-20 it is written:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1 Peter 4:6 talks about the same thing.
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Finally, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is actually a parable and not a real story, then Jesus made up a story, OK? But a parablet must resemble to reality. It must be respective to the actual facts, it can not be something totally different from the real situation. A parable is actually a story which uses imaginary images to describe the same events of the real story.
Luke 16:19-31 First, we must understand this is a parable, and the parables Jesus told he had to explain for his disciples to understand and he did not explain this one. We cannot take this passage as a literal description.
In the context of Luke 16, Jesus is talking to Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had. Is this parable describing a holding place where the redeemed can live in peace but can look and even talk across a vast chasm with the sufferings of the sinners in torment?
The Babylonian Talmud speaks of "Abraham's Bosom" as the place that righteous Jews went after they died. The Jewish people of the time of Jesus had been influenced by Babylonian and Hellenistic Greek cultures, and that influence is still today.
Jesus was probably using a common image from that culture to create a picture that they could relate to their final destination. This parable also does not fit all of the scripture if we receive our reward as soon as we die, as said, we go to heaven or hell.
Many scriptures tell us when we will receive our reward and it is not when we die. Here are just a few and they all agree it is at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:271 Corinthians 1:7-81 Corinthians 15:22-231 Thessalonians 2:19Revelation 22:12
John wrote this a while after Jesus ascended, he said Jesus was in heaven, "Son of man which is in heaven", John 3:13. Peter said David is dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us unto this day, and he has not ascended to heaven. Acts 2:29-34
The day of redemption, Eph. 4:301 Cor. 15:52 1 Thess.4:16 (not descend) and many more.
Men are never spoken of in Scripture as "spirits".
Man has a spirit, but he is not "a spirit", for a spirit hath not flesh and bones".
In this life man has "flesh and blood", a "natural" (or psychical) body.
At death this spirit "returns to God Who gave it" ( Ps. 31:5. Eccles. 12:7. Luke 23:46. Acts 7:59).
In resurrection "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him" ( 1Cor. 15:38). This is no longer a "natural" (or psychical) body, but a "spiritual body" ( 1Cor. 15:44).
,,, There are two sides to paradise, which us where we all go when we die,,, Heaven and a Prison ,,, which IS where God is, wherever God is that's Heaven ,,, those who make the first resurrection when they die go to the Heaven side,,,,, those who don't, go to prison,,, there is a great fixed gulf that separate's them,,, read Luke 16,,, the parable of the Rich man, and Lazarus, a powerful lesson.
I don't believe there is any place in scripture that would indicate that our loved ones who have passed away can see us or feel our love for them. I do however think that those who have passed away can remember their past life on earth. We see this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was tormented in this flame which tells us that he was not saved and that he still had a sense of feel because he asked for Abraham to cool his tongue. He also remembered his brothers on earth who were not saved because he asked that someone would be sent to testify to his brothers.
I find that story to be quite interesting. Here's this rich man being tormented in these flames, and he doesn't ask Abraham to get him out, but that he would just cool the tip of his tongue. Either he didn't want out because he didn't want anything to do with Jesus, or he knew that it was impossible for him to be saved after he had died in a state of rejection.
I was just wondering...since the rich man and Lazarus are just souls, no bodies, as the resurrection of dead has yet to happen, what are those flames? Material? Spiritual? A metaphor for something else? What's your opinion?
I believe those were literal flames but not the flames of Hell. This was Hades. There is no one in Hell yet. I do believe that there will be a future resurrection of the dead. In fact, there will be two, one for the New Testament saints that Jesus comes for at the time of the rapture, and then a future resurrection after the 1,000 year reign of Christ for all those who rejected Christ, and they will be cast into the lake of fire (Hell).
As far as resurrection from the dead goes, what would be your understanding of Matthew 26:52-53? I understand those to be Old Testament saints who were resurrected shortly after Jesus' resurrection. These would have been all the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom. I believe that not only were they were resurrected, but they were also seen by many in Jerusalem.
But as far as the presentation of the rich man and Lazarus given to us in Luke 16:19-31, the theme that I see all the way through is that Jesus is talking about the contrasts between this earthly life and the spirit realm, earthly life and the Kingdom of God. There is no greater contrast than in Verses 19 through 31, the presentation of the rich man and Lazarus. I call it a presentation because it is not a parable as some bibles call it. This is the story of true people. And these two people are opposites. They are in contrast to each other as far as people in their conditions in their earthly life, contrast in their death, and then after life throughout eternity is another contrast.
I agree with you that the parable of rich man and Lazarus is actually a real story but some details in this story make me have some questions in my mind. Fistly as I said before what are those flaims/fire? Since both persons have no material bodies but are just souls then how come the rich man is burned by flames(physical flames?). Secondly reading the story you will see the words torments/tormented in the English text in verses 23,24,25. In the greek text the word "basanois" is the word for torments in v23, which is OK. But in the other two verses the word "odynomai/etai" is used for tormented. But this word is mainly used in greek for spiritual/psycological pain, not physical pain. Why is then the rich man begs for water(physical water?)? Can it be that this story is just fantastic? Jesus just wanted to make people realize the consequences of not believing in Him and told a completely imaginary story? Just womdering.
Now lets go to Matthew 27:51-52
"52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Fistly there is a mistake in the position of comma in verse 53. The comma is after the word grave not the word resurrection, so it becomes "And coming out of the graves, after his resurrection went into the holy city and appeared unto many". This is the proper sentence.
You are asking, are these all of the OT saints? My belief is no they are not. It says "many bodies", not all. Secondly iF they were all the OT saints, which they must be many many millions of them, the whole land of Israel would be full of them, vastly more than the living Israelites at that time, which I find hard to believe. I believe that those were godly people that have recently died and were resurrected, lived the rest of their lives as before and died sometime later on, like Lazarus bro of Martha and Maria.
About resurrection It seems to me there are 3 of them.
1. A pretribulation resurrection during the rapture of the saints to meet Jesus in the air. Are OT sains included? There are two opinions (I dont know which is right). The first opinion says they will be included. Those who believe that use the verse in Hebrews 11:40 "God having provided some better thing for us (the christians), that they without us should not be (the OT saints) made perfect. Others says that only the Bride of Christ, the church, will be caught up. Verses about the Marriage of Christ with His Bride church are used by those who have the second opinion.
2. A resurrection of all those that will not accept the mark of the beast and will be slaughtered during the reign of the antichrist. They will be resurrected just before the second coming of Christ, just before the fight of Armagedon. This is obvious since they will reign on earth together with Jesus for 1000 years.
3.The final resurrection of all the rest of people that died thought the centuaries, just before the Final Judgement.
Now, what is your belief about people to whom Christ was never preached (like muslims, budhists etc)? I believe that they will be judged (and be saved) according to their good life/good works as their conscious says to them. Romans 2:11-16
Hope you don't mind, I read your posts. I do not know if you read my post to Gary in this thread, but you commented on the Greek words in the, (my understanding a parable) Luke 16. And you spoke on Matt. 27:51-52. My understanding of this comes from what John wrote of what Jesus said.
In John 8 they were pressing Jesus who He was, and He said this in vs. 28 he does nothing of Himself, but He said when you have lifted up the Son of Man then you will know I am He. Then In John 5:25-29 Jesus said the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they shall live. Now is not later Jesus is saying now which He is talking about what is written in Matt. 27.
In vs 28 Jesus said marvel not at this for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, (but He did not say and now is). This goes to your comment on the final resurrection, but I will not comment on that now.
In Matthew 27 Jesus had been hanging on that cross since 9 AM going on 6 hours, and I am sure He was going in and out of consciousness and when Jesus cried out for the last time, He may have come to which in my understanding refers to the word resurrection used in vs 53. You will know the Greek better than me, but it is a different word than the other words used for resurrection. it is egersis, meaning resurgence not necessarily from death.
But my understanding is when Jesus cried out all these things happened, the veil of the temple rent, earthquake, the rocks rent, and the graves were opened, many bodies of the saints which slept arose and went into the city and appeared to many. As you said like Lazarus.
To me vs 54 confirms what Jesus said in John 8:28 truly this was the Son of God. Many knew they just killed the Son of God. "Then shall ye know that I am He"
I have read your post to Grae and I have everything into consideration. A few things i thought about...
In the parable/real story of those two persons Jesus is recorded to use the name Hades (or Ades). This name really comes from the ancient greek mythology, it was a horrible place where the souls of the dead spent the eternity in a form of like shadows in a condition of semi-awareness. In Ades there was a place called the Elysia fields where the souls of heros and virtuous people live in joy. There was another place called Tartarus which was the most horrible and deepest place of Ades. The whole thing resembles a lot with the description in Luke. Also the name/place Tartarus (together with the name Abyss=bottomless in greek) is used by Paul as the place where demons are imprisoned if they disobey God. Luke was Greek, his gospel was written for the Greeks, so it is logical that he may have used pictures from their mythology to make them understand better what he talks about. Paul also used greek names since he mainly preached the gospel in Greece. Also the Septuagint ancient translation of the OT from Hebrew to Greek uses the name Ades where the Hebrew text uses the word "Sheol". So greek speaking Jews at that time were familiar with the word Ades and what it represants.. But I find it hard to believe that Jesus originally used greek names in his preaching to Jews. He most probably used the name "Sheol", and it seems very unlikely that He used greek representations to teach ordinary and mainly uneducated Jew people. He most probably used images from the Old Testament. So everything is in consideration... Nevertheless the point is that people who do not believe in Jesus and die in their sins will have a horrible end, which will last forever.
Now in verse Matthew 27:53 the word "egersis" literally means "rising" and is another way of saying resurrection, like rising from the dead. If I understand well, you mean that those people that were resurrected were the ones that Jesus meant in John 5:28-29 so as to prove to Jews that He is the Son of God? Right? But verse 29 says "And shall (the resurrected people) come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." So it seems to me that Jesus talks about the future resurrection of the dead and the consequent judgement. Anyway ...
Now I also have a question. What time was Jesus crucified? In Mark 15:25 it says 3rd hour, that is 6+3=9 o'cock in the morning. Right? But in John 19:14, it is 6th hour (12 at noon) and Jesus is still standing infront of Pilatus.
It takes all the books of the PROPHETS to understand the PARABLE ( Matthew 13:34) of the rich man and Lazarus.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will DO NOTHING, but he REVEALETH his secret unto his servants the PROPHETS.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, if they HEAR NOT Mosses and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
No where in Moses and the prophets does it prophesy that anyone goes to heaven or hell. It prophesies that there will be a Kingdom of God.
The books of the prophets, prophesies, that the elect will BE BROUGHT through the fire; not avoid it.
It prophesies that only a third will be brought through the fire in this age; the others will go to the grave and wait for the resurrection to the next age.
Revelation is a second witness to the prophecies.
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and die, and a THIRD shall be left therein ( Luke 17:34-35).
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the THIRD PART through the FIRE ..
Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD part ..
Ezekiel 5:3 ..take THEREOF a few in number ..
Ezekiel 5:4 ...take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire, for THEREOF shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel.
Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a FLAME ....
Luke 16:24 ....for I am tormented in this FLAME.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this HONOUR hath all his Saints.
Obadiah 1:21 And Saviours (those that have obtained the next age, the IMAGE OF CHRIST) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
Zechariah 12:8 And in that day ( Revelation 20:9) shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David, and the house of David shall be as (the image of) GOD, and the angel of the LORD before them.
Thanks, I agree, many will burn in the lake of fire, but no one will be cast into it until Rev. 20:15 not before. I believe this is a parable and you do not and that's ok. If we look at the context, Jesus was directing it to the Pharisees who was highly educated, who was being snooty.
I agree the story fits Greek mythology but in the Old or New Testament scripture does not support an after-death place we go before resurrection; I have not found one verse that says we, as man, go or are taken to heaven. Do you know one?
My understanding of scripture death is sleep; scripture tells us there is no knowledge of time until we are resurrected. Greek philosophy of death from Socrates, Plato, death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body that is falsely said to be immortal. This has (in my understanding) intertwined into Christianity teaching.
There is only one group of angels that are locked in chains of darkness, the ones in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6. These left their own habitation, and God locked them in darkness for what they did against God's creation. Satan, other fallen angels, and devils/demons are on this earth even today.
In Matt. 27 it just seemed different to use another word for resurrection than the Greek word "anastasis" used all the other times for resurrection. It was John 5:25 When Jesus said the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and shall live. These are the ones I believe when Jesus cried out came out of their graves. John 5:28-29 will be the final resurrection. Hope that makes since.
The different times in Mark and John I will have to go with everything else that was written. There is not a contradiction between John and Mark, Jesus was nailed to the cross and stood up on the 3rd hour, 9AM the same time the first lamb of the Tamid was put on the altar on Passover day, the preparation day for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, a sabbath day.
a. The greek text in 2 Peter 2:4 uses the word "tartara" for what the KJV Bible translates as " hell". As I sad before "tartarus or tartara" was considered by Greeks the most horrible and deepest place at Hades.
b. The greek for "bottomless pit" in Rev 20:1 and Rev 20:3 is "Abyss". which means just " bottomless" and is again something that is taken out from Greek myths.
c. About souls after death, how about the scripture in Rev 6:9-11? They are the souls of those who were slaughtered by antichrist and they are under the altar of the Temple of God in Heaven.
Thanks, I still go with nowhere in scripture refers to an immortal soul that goes to a holding place whether it is a good place or a bad place to me that strictly comes from Greek philosophy. And the context of Luke 16 is towards the Pharisees and in my opinion, it is a parable because no other scripture backs it up, and I go with Deut. 17:6 only one witness does not hold up.
The fifth seal, the souls under the altar, that was slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held. It does not say when they were killed. They cried to God, asking Him how long it would be until He would judge the world. These are souls under the alter, would that be where souls go under an alter or is this symbolic of something else?
We see I Rev. 8:3-4 the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense which was in the holy of holies Exod. 30:27, the altar of incense was an altar for prayer. My understanding of what John was seeing was symbolic of the prayers of the saints which they offered when they yet lived. It also could be a picture of the coming tribulation that many say they will not be here.
There have been many since Jesus ascended that have been butchered for God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, by many different nations even today. Their white robes are waiting, and the prayers of the saints are still going up to God our Father.
There are scriptures that this earth is for man even when it is all over, the new city Jerusalem comes down to the new earth where we will be. I still have not found one scripture that outright says, in any form, we go or are taken to heaven, can you show me one?
This flesh must be planted, 1 Cor. 15:42-44, This mortal must put on immortality, 1 Cor.15:53. Jesus did not leave his fleshly body in the tomb it was transformed into His spiritual body.
We have the earnest of the Spirit, a down payment until the redemption of the purchased possession. When we are resurrected not before.
Where did Jesus' soul go after He died on the cross? Acts 2:22-35 tell us. Pay attention to verses 27 & 31.
Also in 1 Peter 3:18-20 it is written:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1 Peter 4:6 talks about the same thing.
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Finally, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is actually a parable and not a real story, then Jesus made up a story, OK? But a parablet must resemble to reality. It must be respective to the actual facts, it can not be something totally different from the real situation. A parable is actually a story which uses imaginary images to describe the same events of the real story.
I want to thank you; this discussion has been a blessing. It has stretched me in my understanding and the realization of some answers to some questions the Holy Spirit may not show us, maybe it is to see if we show love to one another. In our discussion the spirit and the soul are the keys, what part of us are they? Are the spirit and soul the same? Sometimes, in scripture, they seem interchangeable but is the spirit or the soul immortal, that is the key to the answer.
Spirit in Hebrew the word ruach means breath, wind, spirit, and in Greek, the word pneuma also means wind, breath, spirit. Our spirit is our driving force, energy, and stamina, and is the conduit of communication to God through His Spirit. Soul in Hebrew the word nephesh means a soul, living being, life, self, person. The Greek word psuche means the soul, life, self, and a person's distinct identity.
In Gen. 2:7 God breathed into Adam's nose the breath of life and he became a living soul. Adam became a living soul he was not given a soul. The breath, spirit, given by God became life, a soul. Also, in Genesis 1 all living animals are soul's nephesh. The soul is a living being human or animal, the life in us, but it is also our identity, we are all different in looks and personality, all our feelings, our thoughts, emotions, all that makes us, us.
Does scripture say the spirit leaves this body? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Jesus in Luke 23:46 Stephen in Acts 7:59. Does scripture say the soul leaves this body? In the resurrection 1 Cor. 15:52-57 If our soul is immortal would we not already be a spiritual being? Does scripture support death as the separation of the soul from the body and the soul is immortal? Does that come from Socrates, Plato, and then Augustine's encouragement in the church, and over the years it is fixed?
Scripture describes death as sleep and the grave/hell is our home until Jesus returns and releases us from the pains of death, Acts 2:24, and the hope we have, Rom. 8:11. We see in Psalm 6:5Job 14:12-14Job 17:13-16. When a person dies, he "lies down" in death and does not arise out of that sleep until his regeneration at the resurrection. Psalm 89:48Psalm 115:17Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.
Jesus said this referring to eternal life, Matthew 16:26. Sory for being wordy but I hope this sort of explains my understanding. If our soul is immortal, Luke 16 is a real story, I believe scripture is clear, our soul is us and is mortal, there would be nothing to resurrect. Where would be victory over the grave and death? 1 Cor. 15:54-551 Cor. 15:14.
Jesus's soul along with his body was as He said of Jonah/Jonas, Matt. 12"40. In Acts 2:22-35 Jesus was not left in Hell and did not see corruption, in vs. 24 God loosed the pains of death because Jesus was sinless, and death had to let go.
1 Peter 3:18-20 is hard, we have spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah, and the waters of the flood compared to the baptizing waters saving not washing away the filth of the flesh but for the conscience toward God. Our conscience, our hard drive our testimony, 2 Cor.1:12 tells us with the help of the Holy Spirit if we are good to go and it is pure.
There is no clear indication of when Jesus did this so to say it was when He was in the tomb would be just an opinion.
Spirits in prison from Noah's time building the ark? Why that time and not all the time up to His resurrection? I may be wrong, but I do not know of the dead being called spirits and being in prison, but the angels who left their first estate are locked in chains of darkness. Revelation gives another look at what that prison may be. This one will be full of opinions that would need setting at a table discussion, so I will leave this one to your understanding.
1 Peter 4:6 I think it would be hard to verify Peter is talking about the gospel being preached to dead people, it may mean those who are spiritually dead or ones that heard the gospel that has died and was dead when he said this, or an answer not yet reviled.
A general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels. Luke 15:3, 15:8, 15:11, and 16:1 are parables, and they are introduced in a similar form to Luke 16:19. In this both the rich man and Lazarus are depicted as having bodies, Lazarus a finger, the rich man a tongue after death, but scripture says new bodies are not given until the resurrection.
The rich man and Lazarus both were fully aware of their surroundings, scripture tells us there is no knowledge in death. My understanding of the lesson of Jesus is clear. Our current lives dictate our eternal destiny, which is unalterable after death, and the only way for this to not be a parable is for the soul to be immortal which comes from Greek philosophy and was advanced by Augustine in the church. My understanding is scripture does not support that.
Sorry, it took a while to get back to you, and forgive me if I repeated anything I'm an old man.
d. My opinion about spirit, soul, body. The spirit is us, our personality, thoughts, emotions etc. The soul is where our spirit is placed/located. Spirit and soul are nseparable and immortal. The physical body is a vehicle that is used by our spirit/soul to live in this physical world and it is of course mortal. If soul and not spirit is us, then where is God's, angels', demons' personality/life/emotions are located since they don't have souls.
e. Now about ancient philosophy, yes there have been attemps from the very begining to compromise philosophy with christianity. But those attemps in the early times failed. Also attempts were made by the Gnostics (Eastern beliefs) to enter christianity. Gnosis in greek means Knowledge, so the gnostics were people that claimed that they had some kind of a deeper and mysterious knowledge that ordinary believers didn't have. But we know that Paul as well as the other apostles fought all these. Jesus in Revelation gives warnings to churches to avoid those. You are right about St Augustin and others in the 2nd and 3rd centuaries AD that made attempts to import philosophy into christianity but never really succeded. In contrast to those, christianity wrongly took many things from Judaism, like the priests and temples and all those things that are still present in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
f. Acts 20:7-10 is about the story of that young man who was sleeping during Paul's teaching and fell down from the first floor dead. In verse 10 says "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him." But the greek text says "soul" not 'Life". His soul was in him. Why? Was there a case that the soul would be out of him, if soul simply dies?
Many other things can be said, but I think I may have tired you.
I'm probably older but I am not tired, ha ha. I have enjoyed our conversation but looks like we come to a point we are not going to agree. That is ok, I felt I listed scripture that went with my understanding. Just one or two more things and it is ok if you don't reply, and I do not mean anything about not replying.
The thief hanging next to Jesus that asked Jesus to remember him when He come into His kingdom. First punctuation was not used and depending on the comma would change what was said. I say unto you, Today or I say unto you today, another question, why capitalize the t in today after a comma?
If Jesus and the thief went to heaven that day, why did Jesus tell Mary do not touch me for I have not ascended to my Father in John 20:17? Three days later. He ascended and presented Himself to His Father as the Firstfruits of those who slept and then returned. This was the same time the Priest waved the sheaf of the Firstfruits to be accepted by God before they could partake of the first harvest, the same with Jesus He could not be touched until He presented Himself to God.
The Old Testament is all the early church had and if we claim that all Scripture is inspired by God if what is said in the old should not change in the new. The definition of death in the old is the same in the new, the new cannot contradict the old if both are inspired by God.
The spirit is what goes back to God, without the spirit we are dead, in scripture it is called sleep. No spirit no breath and no more communication with God. The soul is us and is buried in death until resurrection.
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"
Actually you are right that people didn't use punctuation marks at that time, they also used only capital letters. So all the scriptures were initially written in capital letters without punctuation. I have heard that before, that the position of the comma may be after the word today. But I am thinking when people actually started to use small letters and punctuation, didn't they write the specific verse so that it fits what they believed it was right? So that early time christians believed that the comma should be after the word 'thee'? As I see it, Jesus was for 3 days in Hades, in Abraham's bosom, in the heart of earth, He was not with Father God. After He was resurrected He showed Himself to the women who were present there, then ascended to Heaven to present Himself to Father God. Probably it was that time that (according to my beliefs) took all the souls of the saints from Abraham's bosom and carriied them to Paradise (under the altar).
Thanks Ronald, as you said we haven't come into agreement but I have also enjoyed the conversation.
Well, I am thinking, maybe then I will not get to meet you in Heaven before rapture, I was hoping to make a coffee for us!!!!!!!Joke
Bro. Giannis. I also think of Stephen's dying moments, when he saw the heavens open up and seeing Jesus at the right Hand of God, he called upon Jesus to "receive my spirit" ( Acts 7:56-59). From this, I believe we can understand that Stephen fully expected to die shortly & that his spirit would be taken into God's Presence. And then "he fell asleep": not only a lifeless body remained on Earth, but also a spirit-less body.
Re: parables. My understanding is that a parable needed to conform to a couple of criteria or else it wasn't a parable. The story was to be a simple everyday account of a situation that the people could relate to and the parable would not contain any proper names. I haven't physically checked each of the parables of the Lord to verify this, but from what I can remember, all of them, bar the rich man & Lazarus account, remain faithful to that criteria.
In the Lazarus story, both Abraham & Lazarus are named & conversing with each other, and if only a parable, then Jesus implicated these two men, when in actual fact that none of this actually took place (i.e. Abraham & Lazarus weren't actual characters in this drama, but simply representative of a place of comfort & a person deserving of it). This of course is true, in the OT economy, but naming them demands that we need to understand it as an actual event with actual persons there.
Thanks for sharing. You make some very interesting points. I think we are slightly different with each other on some of these things, but hey, I guess there are probably a few other ways we can look at it also.
To answer your question about people who never heard the gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ, I would have to say that they are without excuse. They will not be able to stand before God and say "we never heard." Romans 1:20 says, For the invisible things of Him, (that is of God), from the creation of the world, (from the time of creation up till now), the invisible things of God, and notice the clarity: are clearly seen, no confusion!
The comprehension: being understood by the things that are made, that is by creation. And then there's a clause at the end of Verse 20 that is an apposition to invisible things, meaning equal to. When it says for the invisible things of Him, I have to ask myself, what does he mean by that? He says even his eternal power and Godhead;
But notice the conclusion: "so that they are without excuse." And as you are aware, the word excuse, Apologea, is where we get our word apologetics from it. It is a legal term that means defense. People have no defense whatsoever. Not one human being is ever going to be able to stand before God and say "I didn't know!" And we are not talking about what registers in the mind. We're talking about what God illuminates or enlightens in a person's conscience or spirit.
Something else I take note of is Psalm 19:1-4, "The heavens declare the glory of God. And the firmament shows His handywork. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night shows knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." Verse 3 really stands out to me, "There's no language or speech that God's creation cannot reach."
Again, no one will have an excuse. God uses creation to testify of His existence.
Plus, I think most Muslims and Buddhists know of Christ but reject Him.
About the people that have not heard of Jesus you quote Romans 1:20. OK but in those verses people will not have an excuse for not believing in the existence of God. But God who? Muslims believe in God, but in another God. So for the muslims that in the past never heard of Jesus but still believed in a God (the one they knew), how is God going to judge them? This is where, I think, verses in Romans 1:11-16 come in. In my understanding they will be judged according to their life, according to what they know it is right, according to what their consience says to them, and we all know that there is not a single man in the world who doesn't know what is right or wrong. How strict is God going to be to them? One cannot know really.
But even for the other religions today who have heard of Jesus, is it enough that they have heard of Jesus? Is that considered that Jesus was preached to them? Ans if Jesus was actually preached to them, without any proof, say by those denominations like Catholics etc, is this enough? In verse John 15:24 it says "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." Which means, if I get it right, that if the one who preaches about Jesus is unable to bring forth a proof that God exists people do not sin if not believing. See what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
Paul's preaching was not just words but with proof of God's power. Paul Himself wouldn't believe in Jesus if Jesus didn't appear to him. Same with Sergius Paulus in Cyprus, same with the guard in Philippii. So we see that Gospel was preach with proof
Now let's go to us nowadays. Is it enough that we preach the Gospel without the power that God showed in the early times?
As I was saying, people sometimes use Romans 10:18 to defend those who they say never heard of Jesus or the gospel message of salvation. But they often miss the fact that Paul says in the very same verse, "but I say have they not heard? Yes they have. Their sound went out into all the earth and their words unto the ends of the world." They have already heard! In fact, Paul in Colossians Chapter 1, he talked about that the inhabitable world in his day had already heard the word. They had already heard the gospel. God reaches everybody about the truth and about the one true God.
Every human being that stands before God, and if they say, "Hey, I am illiterate. I didn't even know there was a Bible. I didn't hear the gospel." But God is going to say to them "What happened when my Spirit came to you and illuminated you and shined my light, my life into your spirit? Were you drawn to me or did you try to get away from me?
Not intellectually how did you process it, but spiritually, how was your response to the truth when God's Spirit brought the testimony of the truth to your life? It could have been at a time when mentally you were not even aware of it. But at some point or another, every human being will either be drawn to the light, or will turn away from the light, but every person will be illuminated in some way. It doesn't have to be with words. It does not have to be with language. It doesn't have to be with preaching.
"I have since heard this same situation told by Missionaries who went to remote tribal groups who had little to no contact with the outside world in Japan, the Middle East and South America. The tribe visited by missionaries in the Middle East region also related the story of the Magi who passed through their region after seeing the baby Jesus, and then leaving by a different route to avoid King Herod. I have since read of other groups who all have a similar understanding of the Gospel that result in salvation for those who believe. There are still other peoples who have knowledge of the constellations but the meaning is lost.
When God answers our prayers so clearly, are we to deny the method of conveying His Grace because it does not fit our knowledge or understanding? No, we are to accept what God has done and accept His Grace and Mercy shown to those who may have had no eternal hope otherwise. End Quote.
Thank you so much for sharing those stories. I myself have heard similar things. I do believe that God has His ways of reaching every single person, even those in remote places where salvation is not preached and bibles do not exist.
Brother Jesse. I appreciated your comments on this subject, as it would certainly rank high in the list of topics that aren't easily understood, at least observing the Work of God in hearts that have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel.
I heard of one account where an unreached tribe were exercised in spirit about their sin & manner of living but had neither Bible nor messenger to lead them into Truth. But they hung on, hoping that someone would come to help them. God did send someone. And the tribe welcomed him & received the Word joyfully.
I also share this following account of a missionary sharing at a Church. This was related by another believer.
Quote. I heard a missionary who had just returned from Africa, relating an amazing situation she had experienced. She had gone to visit a very remote village and told the gospel to them. They were very attentive and at the end of her talk they had tears in their eyes. They thanked her very much. They said, "We know the story and believe but did not know that His name was Jesus". How could such a remote tribe with virtually no contact with the outside world know the story of the gospel?
"That night they went outside and the tribal elder pointed to individual and groups of stars and told her the Gospel (as they understood it) in the stars that led to their salvation. This Gospel had been passed down to them possibly over thousands of years.
Thanks Jesse for the discussion, we have different beliefs on this (as well), but thanks for the time you have spent to answer my posts. God Bless You and have a blessed weekend.
Again, we do differ on this. I will share a few more of my thoughts, not to be argumentative, but to share what I believe. I believe that every single person will one day stand before God and will have to give an account. No person will have an excuse. To me, it does not matter that a person believes in "a god." What matters is that the person believes and surrenders their life to the one true God, Jesus Christ.
There is a tremendous principle being taught in John 1:9. Every single person that is born into this world is at some point enlightened to the truth. There will be no excuse. No one will be able to stand before God and say I didn't know the gospel message about salvation, but I was a good person and always made the right choices because my conscience told me to do so.
Jesus tells us in John Chapter 14 that no one can come to the Father except through Him. In other words, there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. So this would eliminate all those who believe in a god, regardless of who their god is, or how good of a person they were.
Psalm 19:1-4 says that creation, the language of creation goes throughout the world. There is no language that does not understand the language of creation. And creation speaks of the Creator. Also, Romans 1:19-20, Paul says that what is known of God is clearly manifest as God reveals the truth of the invisible God to every person.
As far as the Muslims, Buddhists, and all other religions who are worshipping a different god because they "never heard of Jesus," I would also say that they are all without excuse. Now I know some people like to use Romans 10:18 to support what they believe are people, such as primitive tribes, who have never heard the gospel message. They say how is that fair? And they use Romans 10:18, which says how will they believe if they don't hear a preacher? And how are they going to hear a preacher if no preacher is sent?
Luke 16:19-26. The only passage that Jesus Himself talks about where a person goes after he dies. There is Heaven and Hell. I pray all will be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10.
Luke 23:43
Acts 1:25; John 17:12 Judas Iscariot is the son of perdition. He went to his own place. Revelation 17:8
Isaiah 5:14
Romans 16:25-27
John 3:16 I pray many will be saved. Keep the Faith, trust only and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ. Nobody can save themselves. We give glory to God for He gave us a free gift, a gift of Grace, the grace of God that is available to all.
Dear Ronald, this conversation really gets very interesting. Both sides, we, have brought our points forward.
Whaw, many things to answer, I don't know where to start from.
a. Personally i don't rely much on verses in the Old Testament about life in Heaven since people's knowledge during those times about heavenly things and eternal life was very vague and limited. There was a progressive revelation about these things which was clarified and completed by Jesus in New Testament
b. In Acts 2"22-35 in verses 27 and 31 the word HADES is written in the greek text not HELL, actually everywhere where the greek text writes Hades the KJV Bible writes Hell, I don't know why because they are not really the same thing. I believe that Jesus' soul went to Hades in Abraham's bosom, that's why He said to that thief who was crucified next to Him that "today he would be with Him in Heaven". How do you explain that? If Jesus' soul was dead, how could the thief's soul be with Him in Heaven since they were both dead in the grave? In Acts 2"27 says "you will not abandon my soul in Hades". So God resurrected Jesus in the 3rd day, He didn't abandon Jesus in Hades.
The same in 1 Cor 15"55 "O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory?" is the proper translation. I have noticed that the KJV translates as grave almost everywhere where the greek writes death or Hades. Sometime I will make and post a list of all those.
c. Even if I accept the belief about an immortal spirit and mortal soul, this still doesn't explain how come Jesus went to the dead and preached the gospel to them. I think it is clear that Peter doesn't mean the spiritually dead but the physically dead people.Those verses, as you say, are hard to explain why, but it seems to me that Jesus gave a second opportunity to those who never heard of Him and the Gospel He preached(?)
to be cont..
Where did Jesus' soul go after He died on the cross? Acts 2:22-35 tell us. Pay attention to verses 27 & 31.
Also in 1 Peter 3:18-20 it is written:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1 Peter 4:6 talks about the same thing.
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Finally, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is actually a parable and not a real story, then Jesus made up a story, OK? But a parablet must resemble to reality. It must be respective to the actual facts, it can not be something totally different from the real situation. A parable is actually a story which uses imaginary images to describe the same events of the real story.
God Blessings
We sleep in death until we are resurrected.
If I may give my understanding.
Luke 16:19-31 First, we must understand this is a parable, and the parables Jesus told he had to explain for his disciples to understand and he did not explain this one. We cannot take this passage as a literal description.
In the context of Luke 16, Jesus is talking to Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had. Is this parable describing a holding place where the redeemed can live in peace but can look and even talk across a vast chasm with the sufferings of the sinners in torment?
The Babylonian Talmud speaks of "Abraham's Bosom" as the place that righteous Jews went after they died. The Jewish people of the time of Jesus had been influenced by Babylonian and Hellenistic Greek cultures, and that influence is still today.
Jesus was probably using a common image from that culture to create a picture that they could relate to their final destination. This parable also does not fit all of the scripture if we receive our reward as soon as we die, as said, we go to heaven or hell.
Many scriptures tell us when we will receive our reward and it is not when we die. Here are just a few and they all agree it is at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:27 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 1 Thessalonians 2:19 Revelation 22:12
John wrote this a while after Jesus ascended, he said Jesus was in heaven, "Son of man which is in heaven", John 3:13. Peter said David is dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us unto this day, and he has not ascended to heaven. Acts 2:29-34
The day of redemption, Eph. 4:30 1 Cor. 15:52 1 Thess.4:16 (not descend) and many more.
God bless,
RLW
Man has a spirit, but he is not "a spirit", for a spirit hath not flesh and bones".
In this life man has "flesh and blood", a "natural" (or psychical) body.
At death this spirit "returns to God Who gave it" ( Ps. 31:5. Eccles. 12:7. Luke 23:46. Acts 7:59).
In resurrection "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him" ( 1Cor. 15:38). This is no longer a "natural" (or psychical) body, but a "spiritual body" ( 1Cor. 15:44).
,,, There are two sides to paradise, which us where we all go when we die,,, Heaven and a Prison ,,, which IS where God is, wherever God is that's Heaven ,,, those who make the first resurrection when they die go to the Heaven side,,,,, those who don't, go to prison,,, there is a great fixed gulf that separate's them,,, read Luke 16,,, the parable of the Rich man, and Lazarus, a powerful lesson.
Satan is the son of perdition, not Judas btw.
I don't believe there is any place in scripture that would indicate that our loved ones who have passed away can see us or feel our love for them. I do however think that those who have passed away can remember their past life on earth. We see this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was tormented in this flame which tells us that he was not saved and that he still had a sense of feel because he asked for Abraham to cool his tongue. He also remembered his brothers on earth who were not saved because he asked that someone would be sent to testify to his brothers.
I find that story to be quite interesting. Here's this rich man being tormented in these flames, and he doesn't ask Abraham to get him out, but that he would just cool the tip of his tongue. Either he didn't want out because he didn't want anything to do with Jesus, or he knew that it was impossible for him to be saved after he had died in a state of rejection.
Like 16 is sure some interesting reading.
I was just wondering...since the rich man and Lazarus are just souls, no bodies, as the resurrection of dead has yet to happen, what are those flames? Material? Spiritual? A metaphor for something else? What's your opinion?
GBU
I believe those were literal flames but not the flames of Hell. This was Hades. There is no one in Hell yet. I do believe that there will be a future resurrection of the dead. In fact, there will be two, one for the New Testament saints that Jesus comes for at the time of the rapture, and then a future resurrection after the 1,000 year reign of Christ for all those who rejected Christ, and they will be cast into the lake of fire (Hell).
As far as resurrection from the dead goes, what would be your understanding of Matthew 26:52-53? I understand those to be Old Testament saints who were resurrected shortly after Jesus' resurrection. These would have been all the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom. I believe that not only were they were resurrected, but they were also seen by many in Jerusalem.
But as far as the presentation of the rich man and Lazarus given to us in Luke 16:19-31, the theme that I see all the way through is that Jesus is talking about the contrasts between this earthly life and the spirit realm, earthly life and the Kingdom of God. There is no greater contrast than in Verses 19 through 31, the presentation of the rich man and Lazarus. I call it a presentation because it is not a parable as some bibles call it. This is the story of true people. And these two people are opposites. They are in contrast to each other as far as people in their conditions in their earthly life, contrast in their death, and then after life throughout eternity is another contrast.
Blessings to you also!
Hello Jesse
I agree with you that the parable of rich man and Lazarus is actually a real story but some details in this story make me have some questions in my mind. Fistly as I said before what are those flaims/fire? Since both persons have no material bodies but are just souls then how come the rich man is burned by flames(physical flames?). Secondly reading the story you will see the words torments/tormented in the English text in verses 23,24,25. In the greek text the word "basanois" is the word for torments in v23, which is OK. But in the other two verses the word "odynomai/etai" is used for tormented. But this word is mainly used in greek for spiritual/psycological pain, not physical pain. Why is then the rich man begs for water(physical water?)? Can it be that this story is just fantastic? Jesus just wanted to make people realize the consequences of not believing in Him and told a completely imaginary story? Just womdering.
Now lets go to Matthew 27:51-52
"52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Fistly there is a mistake in the position of comma in verse 53. The comma is after the word grave not the word resurrection, so it becomes "And coming out of the graves, after his resurrection went into the holy city and appeared unto many". This is the proper sentence.
You are asking, are these all of the OT saints? My belief is no they are not. It says "many bodies", not all. Secondly iF they were all the OT saints, which they must be many many millions of them, the whole land of Israel would be full of them, vastly more than the living Israelites at that time, which I find hard to believe. I believe that those were godly people that have recently died and were resurrected, lived the rest of their lives as before and died sometime later on, like Lazarus bro of Martha and Maria.
To be cont...
Jesse
About resurrection It seems to me there are 3 of them.
1. A pretribulation resurrection during the rapture of the saints to meet Jesus in the air. Are OT sains included? There are two opinions (I dont know which is right). The first opinion says they will be included. Those who believe that use the verse in Hebrews 11:40 "God having provided some better thing for us (the christians), that they without us should not be (the OT saints) made perfect. Others says that only the Bride of Christ, the church, will be caught up. Verses about the Marriage of Christ with His Bride church are used by those who have the second opinion.
2. A resurrection of all those that will not accept the mark of the beast and will be slaughtered during the reign of the antichrist. They will be resurrected just before the second coming of Christ, just before the fight of Armagedon. This is obvious since they will reign on earth together with Jesus for 1000 years.
3.The final resurrection of all the rest of people that died thought the centuaries, just before the Final Judgement.
Now, what is your belief about people to whom Christ was never preached (like muslims, budhists etc)? I believe that they will be judged (and be saved) according to their good life/good works as their conscious says to them. Romans 2:11-16
God Blessings.
Hope you don't mind, I read your posts. I do not know if you read my post to Gary in this thread, but you commented on the Greek words in the, (my understanding a parable) Luke 16. And you spoke on Matt. 27:51-52. My understanding of this comes from what John wrote of what Jesus said.
In John 8 they were pressing Jesus who He was, and He said this in vs. 28 he does nothing of Himself, but He said when you have lifted up the Son of Man then you will know I am He. Then In John 5:25-29 Jesus said the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they shall live. Now is not later Jesus is saying now which He is talking about what is written in Matt. 27.
In vs 28 Jesus said marvel not at this for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, (but He did not say and now is). This goes to your comment on the final resurrection, but I will not comment on that now.
In Matthew 27 Jesus had been hanging on that cross since 9 AM going on 6 hours, and I am sure He was going in and out of consciousness and when Jesus cried out for the last time, He may have come to which in my understanding refers to the word resurrection used in vs 53. You will know the Greek better than me, but it is a different word than the other words used for resurrection. it is egersis, meaning resurgence not necessarily from death.
But my understanding is when Jesus cried out all these things happened, the veil of the temple rent, earthquake, the rocks rent, and the graves were opened, many bodies of the saints which slept arose and went into the city and appeared to many. As you said like Lazarus.
To me vs 54 confirms what Jesus said in John 8:28 truly this was the Son of God. Many knew they just killed the Son of God. "Then shall ye know that I am He"
God bless,
RLW
Hello Ronald
I have read your post to Grae and I have everything into consideration. A few things i thought about...
In the parable/real story of those two persons Jesus is recorded to use the name Hades (or Ades). This name really comes from the ancient greek mythology, it was a horrible place where the souls of the dead spent the eternity in a form of like shadows in a condition of semi-awareness. In Ades there was a place called the Elysia fields where the souls of heros and virtuous people live in joy. There was another place called Tartarus which was the most horrible and deepest place of Ades. The whole thing resembles a lot with the description in Luke. Also the name/place Tartarus (together with the name Abyss=bottomless in greek) is used by Paul as the place where demons are imprisoned if they disobey God. Luke was Greek, his gospel was written for the Greeks, so it is logical that he may have used pictures from their mythology to make them understand better what he talks about. Paul also used greek names since he mainly preached the gospel in Greece. Also the Septuagint ancient translation of the OT from Hebrew to Greek uses the name Ades where the Hebrew text uses the word "Sheol". So greek speaking Jews at that time were familiar with the word Ades and what it represants.. But I find it hard to believe that Jesus originally used greek names in his preaching to Jews. He most probably used the name "Sheol", and it seems very unlikely that He used greek representations to teach ordinary and mainly uneducated Jew people. He most probably used images from the Old Testament. So everything is in consideration... Nevertheless the point is that people who do not believe in Jesus and die in their sins will have a horrible end, which will last forever.
To be cont..
Ronald
Now in verse Matthew 27:53 the word "egersis" literally means "rising" and is another way of saying resurrection, like rising from the dead. If I understand well, you mean that those people that were resurrected were the ones that Jesus meant in John 5:28-29 so as to prove to Jews that He is the Son of God? Right? But verse 29 says "And shall (the resurrected people) come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." So it seems to me that Jesus talks about the future resurrection of the dead and the consequent judgement. Anyway ...
Now I also have a question. What time was Jesus crucified? In Mark 15:25 it says 3rd hour, that is 6+3=9 o'cock in the morning. Right? But in John 19:14, it is 6th hour (12 at noon) and Jesus is still standing infront of Pilatus.
GBU
It takes all the books of the PROPHETS to understand the PARABLE ( Matthew 13:34) of the rich man and Lazarus.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will DO NOTHING, but he REVEALETH his secret unto his servants the PROPHETS.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, if they HEAR NOT Mosses and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
No where in Moses and the prophets does it prophesy that anyone goes to heaven or hell. It prophesies that there will be a Kingdom of God.
The books of the prophets, prophesies, that the elect will BE BROUGHT through the fire; not avoid it.
It prophesies that only a third will be brought through the fire in this age; the others will go to the grave and wait for the resurrection to the next age.
Revelation is a second witness to the prophecies.
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and die, and a THIRD shall be left therein ( Luke 17:34-35).
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the THIRD PART through the FIRE ..
Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shall burn with fire a THIRD part ..
Ezekiel 5:3 ..take THEREOF a few in number ..
Ezekiel 5:4 ...take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire, for THEREOF shall a fire COME FORTH into all the house of Israel.
Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a FLAME ....
Luke 16:24 ....for I am tormented in this FLAME.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this HONOUR hath all his Saints.
Obadiah 1:21 And Saviours (those that have obtained the next age, the IMAGE OF CHRIST) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
Zechariah 12:8 And in that day ( Revelation 20:9) shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David, and the house of David shall be as (the image of) GOD, and the angel of the LORD before them.
Thanks, I agree, many will burn in the lake of fire, but no one will be cast into it until Rev. 20:15 not before. I believe this is a parable and you do not and that's ok. If we look at the context, Jesus was directing it to the Pharisees who was highly educated, who was being snooty.
I agree the story fits Greek mythology but in the Old or New Testament scripture does not support an after-death place we go before resurrection; I have not found one verse that says we, as man, go or are taken to heaven. Do you know one?
My understanding of scripture death is sleep; scripture tells us there is no knowledge of time until we are resurrected. Greek philosophy of death from Socrates, Plato, death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body that is falsely said to be immortal. This has (in my understanding) intertwined into Christianity teaching.
There is only one group of angels that are locked in chains of darkness, the ones in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6. These left their own habitation, and God locked them in darkness for what they did against God's creation. Satan, other fallen angels, and devils/demons are on this earth even today.
In Matt. 27 it just seemed different to use another word for resurrection than the Greek word "anastasis" used all the other times for resurrection. It was John 5:25 When Jesus said the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and shall live. These are the ones I believe when Jesus cried out came out of their graves. John 5:28-29 will be the final resurrection. Hope that makes since.
The different times in Mark and John I will have to go with everything else that was written. There is not a contradiction between John and Mark, Jesus was nailed to the cross and stood up on the 3rd hour, 9AM the same time the first lamb of the Tamid was put on the altar on Passover day, the preparation day for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, a sabbath day.
God bless,
RLW
a. The greek text in 2 Peter 2:4 uses the word "tartara" for what the KJV Bible translates as " hell". As I sad before "tartarus or tartara" was considered by Greeks the most horrible and deepest place at Hades.
b. The greek for "bottomless pit" in Rev 20:1 and Rev 20:3 is "Abyss". which means just " bottomless" and is again something that is taken out from Greek myths.
c. About souls after death, how about the scripture in Rev 6:9-11? They are the souls of those who were slaughtered by antichrist and they are under the altar of the Temple of God in Heaven.
Thanks, I still go with nowhere in scripture refers to an immortal soul that goes to a holding place whether it is a good place or a bad place to me that strictly comes from Greek philosophy. And the context of Luke 16 is towards the Pharisees and in my opinion, it is a parable because no other scripture backs it up, and I go with Deut. 17:6 only one witness does not hold up.
The fifth seal, the souls under the altar, that was slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held. It does not say when they were killed. They cried to God, asking Him how long it would be until He would judge the world. These are souls under the alter, would that be where souls go under an alter or is this symbolic of something else?
We see I Rev. 8:3-4 the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense which was in the holy of holies Exod. 30:27, the altar of incense was an altar for prayer. My understanding of what John was seeing was symbolic of the prayers of the saints which they offered when they yet lived. It also could be a picture of the coming tribulation that many say they will not be here.
There have been many since Jesus ascended that have been butchered for God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, by many different nations even today. Their white robes are waiting, and the prayers of the saints are still going up to God our Father.
There are scriptures that this earth is for man even when it is all over, the new city Jerusalem comes down to the new earth where we will be. I still have not found one scripture that outright says, in any form, we go or are taken to heaven, can you show me one?
This flesh must be planted, 1 Cor. 15:42-44, This mortal must put on immortality, 1 Cor.15:53. Jesus did not leave his fleshly body in the tomb it was transformed into His spiritual body.
We have the earnest of the Spirit, a down payment until the redemption of the purchased possession. When we are resurrected not before.
God bless,
RLW
Where did Jesus' soul go after He died on the cross? Acts 2:22-35 tell us. Pay attention to verses 27 & 31.
Also in 1 Peter 3:18-20 it is written:
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1 Peter 4:6 talks about the same thing.
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Finally, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is actually a parable and not a real story, then Jesus made up a story, OK? But a parablet must resemble to reality. It must be respective to the actual facts, it can not be something totally different from the real situation. A parable is actually a story which uses imaginary images to describe the same events of the real story.
God Blessings
Part 1
I want to thank you; this discussion has been a blessing. It has stretched me in my understanding and the realization of some answers to some questions the Holy Spirit may not show us, maybe it is to see if we show love to one another. In our discussion the spirit and the soul are the keys, what part of us are they? Are the spirit and soul the same? Sometimes, in scripture, they seem interchangeable but is the spirit or the soul immortal, that is the key to the answer.
Spirit in Hebrew the word ruach means breath, wind, spirit, and in Greek, the word pneuma also means wind, breath, spirit. Our spirit is our driving force, energy, and stamina, and is the conduit of communication to God through His Spirit. Soul in Hebrew the word nephesh means a soul, living being, life, self, person. The Greek word psuche means the soul, life, self, and a person's distinct identity.
In Gen. 2:7 God breathed into Adam's nose the breath of life and he became a living soul. Adam became a living soul he was not given a soul. The breath, spirit, given by God became life, a soul. Also, in Genesis 1 all living animals are soul's nephesh. The soul is a living being human or animal, the life in us, but it is also our identity, we are all different in looks and personality, all our feelings, our thoughts, emotions, all that makes us, us.
Does scripture say the spirit leaves this body? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Jesus in Luke 23:46 Stephen in Acts 7:59. Does scripture say the soul leaves this body? In the resurrection 1 Cor. 15:52-57 If our soul is immortal would we not already be a spiritual being? Does scripture support death as the separation of the soul from the body and the soul is immortal? Does that come from Socrates, Plato, and then Augustine's encouragement in the church, and over the years it is fixed?
See Part 2
Part 2
Scripture describes death as sleep and the grave/hell is our home until Jesus returns and releases us from the pains of death, Acts 2:24, and the hope we have, Rom. 8:11. We see in Psalm 6:5 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16. When a person dies, he "lies down" in death and does not arise out of that sleep until his regeneration at the resurrection. Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.
Jesus said this referring to eternal life, Matthew 16:26. Sory for being wordy but I hope this sort of explains my understanding. If our soul is immortal, Luke 16 is a real story, I believe scripture is clear, our soul is us and is mortal, there would be nothing to resurrect. Where would be victory over the grave and death? 1 Cor. 15:54-55 1 Cor. 15:14.
Jesus's soul along with his body was as He said of Jonah/Jonas, Matt. 12"40. In Acts 2:22-35 Jesus was not left in Hell and did not see corruption, in vs. 24 God loosed the pains of death because Jesus was sinless, and death had to let go.
1 Peter 3:18-20 is hard, we have spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah, and the waters of the flood compared to the baptizing waters saving not washing away the filth of the flesh but for the conscience toward God. Our conscience, our hard drive our testimony, 2 Cor.1:12 tells us with the help of the Holy Spirit if we are good to go and it is pure.
There is no clear indication of when Jesus did this so to say it was when He was in the tomb would be just an opinion.
Spirits in prison from Noah's time building the ark? Why that time and not all the time up to His resurrection? I may be wrong, but I do not know of the dead being called spirits and being in prison, but the angels who left their first estate are locked in chains of darkness. Revelation gives another look at what that prison may be. This one will be full of opinions that would need setting at a table discussion, so I will leave this one to your understanding.
See part 3
Part 3
1 Peter 4:6 I think it would be hard to verify Peter is talking about the gospel being preached to dead people, it may mean those who are spiritually dead or ones that heard the gospel that has died and was dead when he said this, or an answer not yet reviled.
A general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels. Luke 15:3, 15:8, 15:11, and 16:1 are parables, and they are introduced in a similar form to Luke 16:19. In this both the rich man and Lazarus are depicted as having bodies, Lazarus a finger, the rich man a tongue after death, but scripture says new bodies are not given until the resurrection.
The rich man and Lazarus both were fully aware of their surroundings, scripture tells us there is no knowledge in death. My understanding of the lesson of Jesus is clear. Our current lives dictate our eternal destiny, which is unalterable after death, and the only way for this to not be a parable is for the soul to be immortal which comes from Greek philosophy and was advanced by Augustine in the church. My understanding is scripture does not support that.
Sorry, it took a while to get back to you, and forgive me if I repeated anything I'm an old man.
God bless,
RLW
Ronald
d. My opinion about spirit, soul, body. The spirit is us, our personality, thoughts, emotions etc. The soul is where our spirit is placed/located. Spirit and soul are nseparable and immortal. The physical body is a vehicle that is used by our spirit/soul to live in this physical world and it is of course mortal. If soul and not spirit is us, then where is God's, angels', demons' personality/life/emotions are located since they don't have souls.
e. Now about ancient philosophy, yes there have been attemps from the very begining to compromise philosophy with christianity. But those attemps in the early times failed. Also attempts were made by the Gnostics (Eastern beliefs) to enter christianity. Gnosis in greek means Knowledge, so the gnostics were people that claimed that they had some kind of a deeper and mysterious knowledge that ordinary believers didn't have. But we know that Paul as well as the other apostles fought all these. Jesus in Revelation gives warnings to churches to avoid those. You are right about St Augustin and others in the 2nd and 3rd centuaries AD that made attempts to import philosophy into christianity but never really succeded. In contrast to those, christianity wrongly took many things from Judaism, like the priests and temples and all those things that are still present in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
f. Acts 20:7-10 is about the story of that young man who was sleeping during Paul's teaching and fell down from the first floor dead. In verse 10 says "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him." But the greek text says "soul" not 'Life". His soul was in him. Why? Was there a case that the soul would be out of him, if soul simply dies?
Many other things can be said, but I think I may have tired you.
God Blessings
I'm probably older but I am not tired, ha ha. I have enjoyed our conversation but looks like we come to a point we are not going to agree. That is ok, I felt I listed scripture that went with my understanding. Just one or two more things and it is ok if you don't reply, and I do not mean anything about not replying.
The thief hanging next to Jesus that asked Jesus to remember him when He come into His kingdom. First punctuation was not used and depending on the comma would change what was said. I say unto you, Today or I say unto you today, another question, why capitalize the t in today after a comma?
If Jesus and the thief went to heaven that day, why did Jesus tell Mary do not touch me for I have not ascended to my Father in John 20:17? Three days later. He ascended and presented Himself to His Father as the Firstfruits of those who slept and then returned. This was the same time the Priest waved the sheaf of the Firstfruits to be accepted by God before they could partake of the first harvest, the same with Jesus He could not be touched until He presented Himself to God.
The Old Testament is all the early church had and if we claim that all Scripture is inspired by God if what is said in the old should not change in the new. The definition of death in the old is the same in the new, the new cannot contradict the old if both are inspired by God.
The spirit is what goes back to God, without the spirit we are dead, in scripture it is called sleep. No spirit no breath and no more communication with God. The soul is us and is buried in death until resurrection.
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"
I have enjoyed this.
God bless,
RLW.
Actually you are right that people didn't use punctuation marks at that time, they also used only capital letters. So all the scriptures were initially written in capital letters without punctuation. I have heard that before, that the position of the comma may be after the word today. But I am thinking when people actually started to use small letters and punctuation, didn't they write the specific verse so that it fits what they believed it was right? So that early time christians believed that the comma should be after the word 'thee'? As I see it, Jesus was for 3 days in Hades, in Abraham's bosom, in the heart of earth, He was not with Father God. After He was resurrected He showed Himself to the women who were present there, then ascended to Heaven to present Himself to Father God. Probably it was that time that (according to my beliefs) took all the souls of the saints from Abraham's bosom and carriied them to Paradise (under the altar).
Thanks Ronald, as you said we haven't come into agreement but I have also enjoyed the conversation.
Well, I am thinking, maybe then I will not get to meet you in Heaven before rapture, I was hoping to make a coffee for us!!!!!!!Joke
God bless you Ronald.
Re: parables. My understanding is that a parable needed to conform to a couple of criteria or else it wasn't a parable. The story was to be a simple everyday account of a situation that the people could relate to and the parable would not contain any proper names. I haven't physically checked each of the parables of the Lord to verify this, but from what I can remember, all of them, bar the rich man & Lazarus account, remain faithful to that criteria.
In the Lazarus story, both Abraham & Lazarus are named & conversing with each other, and if only a parable, then Jesus implicated these two men, when in actual fact that none of this actually took place (i.e. Abraham & Lazarus weren't actual characters in this drama, but simply representative of a place of comfort & a person deserving of it). This of course is true, in the OT economy, but naming them demands that we need to understand it as an actual event with actual persons there.
Thanks for sharing. You make some very interesting points. I think we are slightly different with each other on some of these things, but hey, I guess there are probably a few other ways we can look at it also.
To answer your question about people who never heard the gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ, I would have to say that they are without excuse. They will not be able to stand before God and say "we never heard." Romans 1:20 says, For the invisible things of Him, (that is of God), from the creation of the world, (from the time of creation up till now), the invisible things of God, and notice the clarity: are clearly seen, no confusion!
The comprehension: being understood by the things that are made, that is by creation. And then there's a clause at the end of Verse 20 that is an apposition to invisible things, meaning equal to. When it says for the invisible things of Him, I have to ask myself, what does he mean by that? He says even his eternal power and Godhead;
But notice the conclusion: "so that they are without excuse." And as you are aware, the word excuse, Apologea, is where we get our word apologetics from it. It is a legal term that means defense. People have no defense whatsoever. Not one human being is ever going to be able to stand before God and say "I didn't know!" And we are not talking about what registers in the mind. We're talking about what God illuminates or enlightens in a person's conscience or spirit.
Something else I take note of is Psalm 19:1-4, "The heavens declare the glory of God. And the firmament shows His handywork. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night shows knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard." Verse 3 really stands out to me, "There's no language or speech that God's creation cannot reach."
Again, no one will have an excuse. God uses creation to testify of His existence.
Plus, I think most Muslims and Buddhists know of Christ but reject Him.
About the people that have not heard of Jesus you quote Romans 1:20. OK but in those verses people will not have an excuse for not believing in the existence of God. But God who? Muslims believe in God, but in another God. So for the muslims that in the past never heard of Jesus but still believed in a God (the one they knew), how is God going to judge them? This is where, I think, verses in Romans 1:11-16 come in. In my understanding they will be judged according to their life, according to what they know it is right, according to what their consience says to them, and we all know that there is not a single man in the world who doesn't know what is right or wrong. How strict is God going to be to them? One cannot know really.
But even for the other religions today who have heard of Jesus, is it enough that they have heard of Jesus? Is that considered that Jesus was preached to them? Ans if Jesus was actually preached to them, without any proof, say by those denominations like Catholics etc, is this enough? In verse John 15:24 it says "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." Which means, if I get it right, that if the one who preaches about Jesus is unable to bring forth a proof that God exists people do not sin if not believing. See what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
Paul's preaching was not just words but with proof of God's power. Paul Himself wouldn't believe in Jesus if Jesus didn't appear to him. Same with Sergius Paulus in Cyprus, same with the guard in Philippii. So we see that Gospel was preach with proof
Now let's go to us nowadays. Is it enough that we preach the Gospel without the power that God showed in the early times?
GBU
As I was saying, people sometimes use Romans 10:18 to defend those who they say never heard of Jesus or the gospel message of salvation. But they often miss the fact that Paul says in the very same verse, "but I say have they not heard? Yes they have. Their sound went out into all the earth and their words unto the ends of the world." They have already heard! In fact, Paul in Colossians Chapter 1, he talked about that the inhabitable world in his day had already heard the word. They had already heard the gospel. God reaches everybody about the truth and about the one true God.
Every human being that stands before God, and if they say, "Hey, I am illiterate. I didn't even know there was a Bible. I didn't hear the gospel." But God is going to say to them "What happened when my Spirit came to you and illuminated you and shined my light, my life into your spirit? Were you drawn to me or did you try to get away from me?
Not intellectually how did you process it, but spiritually, how was your response to the truth when God's Spirit brought the testimony of the truth to your life? It could have been at a time when mentally you were not even aware of it. But at some point or another, every human being will either be drawn to the light, or will turn away from the light, but every person will be illuminated in some way. It doesn't have to be with words. It does not have to be with language. It doesn't have to be with preaching.
"I have since heard this same situation told by Missionaries who went to remote tribal groups who had little to no contact with the outside world in Japan, the Middle East and South America. The tribe visited by missionaries in the Middle East region also related the story of the Magi who passed through their region after seeing the baby Jesus, and then leaving by a different route to avoid King Herod. I have since read of other groups who all have a similar understanding of the Gospel that result in salvation for those who believe. There are still other peoples who have knowledge of the constellations but the meaning is lost.
When God answers our prayers so clearly, are we to deny the method of conveying His Grace because it does not fit our knowledge or understanding? No, we are to accept what God has done and accept His Grace and Mercy shown to those who may have had no eternal hope otherwise. End Quote.
Thank you so much for sharing those stories. I myself have heard similar things. I do believe that God has His ways of reaching every single person, even those in remote places where salvation is not preached and bibles do not exist.
Brother Jesse. I appreciated your comments on this subject, as it would certainly rank high in the list of topics that aren't easily understood, at least observing the Work of God in hearts that have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel.
I heard of one account where an unreached tribe were exercised in spirit about their sin & manner of living but had neither Bible nor messenger to lead them into Truth. But they hung on, hoping that someone would come to help them. God did send someone. And the tribe welcomed him & received the Word joyfully.
I also share this following account of a missionary sharing at a Church. This was related by another believer.
Quote. I heard a missionary who had just returned from Africa, relating an amazing situation she had experienced. She had gone to visit a very remote village and told the gospel to them. They were very attentive and at the end of her talk they had tears in their eyes. They thanked her very much. They said, "We know the story and believe but did not know that His name was Jesus". How could such a remote tribe with virtually no contact with the outside world know the story of the gospel?
"That night they went outside and the tribal elder pointed to individual and groups of stars and told her the Gospel (as they understood it) in the stars that led to their salvation. This Gospel had been passed down to them possibly over thousands of years.
Again, we do differ on this. I will share a few more of my thoughts, not to be argumentative, but to share what I believe. I believe that every single person will one day stand before God and will have to give an account. No person will have an excuse. To me, it does not matter that a person believes in "a god." What matters is that the person believes and surrenders their life to the one true God, Jesus Christ.
There is a tremendous principle being taught in John 1:9. Every single person that is born into this world is at some point enlightened to the truth. There will be no excuse. No one will be able to stand before God and say I didn't know the gospel message about salvation, but I was a good person and always made the right choices because my conscience told me to do so.
Jesus tells us in John Chapter 14 that no one can come to the Father except through Him. In other words, there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. So this would eliminate all those who believe in a god, regardless of who their god is, or how good of a person they were.
Psalm 19:1-4 says that creation, the language of creation goes throughout the world. There is no language that does not understand the language of creation. And creation speaks of the Creator. Also, Romans 1:19-20, Paul says that what is known of God is clearly manifest as God reveals the truth of the invisible God to every person.
As far as the Muslims, Buddhists, and all other religions who are worshipping a different god because they "never heard of Jesus," I would also say that they are all without excuse. Now I know some people like to use Romans 10:18 to support what they believe are people, such as primitive tribes, who have never heard the gospel message. They say how is that fair? And they use Romans 10:18, which says how will they believe if they don't hear a preacher? And how are they going to hear a preacher if no preacher is sent?
I am running out of space so I'll send a (part 2)
I meant Romans 10:14. But Romans 10:18 still applies!
Luke 23:43
Acts 1:25; John 17:12 Judas Iscariot is the son of perdition. He went to his own place. Revelation 17:8
Isaiah 5:14
Romans 16:25-27
John 3:16 I pray many will be saved. Keep the Faith, trust only and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ. Nobody can save themselves. We give glory to God for He gave us a free gift, a gift of Grace, the grace of God that is available to all.
Hope this helps.
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