Bible Discussion Thread

Does God predestine people to hell? And if so how is that fair and how does free will co-exist with predestination? Does it co-exist? Any insight to this question will help, God bless you!

When we are born, because of our sinful, evil nature, we are all predestined to hell. It becomes our free will choice whether or not to choose that route, or accept the eternal salvation plan of God through Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary for us. We all can be saved.

Predestination (Part 5):

It was the same with Cain and Abel. They both bring their sacrifice. Abel's was received. Cain's was rejected. Just to show you his heart, because it was rejected, he killed his brother. That just goes to show you why it wasn't received!

Look at the Edomites today, the descendants of Ishmael. Do they turn to Israel and say "You're God's chosen people, praise God! And we're your neighbors. In fact, we're relatives. Praise God again. Let's just serve God together."

Isn't that what they are doing in the Middle East? No! There is hatred and violence against Israel and some of the Arab nations and the people in the Arab nations don't know why, but it's just "the way they do things!" It's really rebellion against God's choice. God didn't make them that way.

So Verse 29 says "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."

Because I am in Christ, I have been predestined by God to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is the head of the body of Christ, as He is.

If anyone took the time to read through all I've shared here, I just want to say thank you. I know it was long but I felt the need to share this in order that people might know that every single person has an opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. God will not reject anyone who genuinely calls out to Him for mercy and salvation.

God Bless!!!

Hello, thank you for this reply! it really helped me understand some verses. But what about verses such as John 15:16, or Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:22-23? these verses seem to say that God predestines us from my understanding.

I've gone over Romans 9:22-23. First, in Verse 22, the word "fitted" is what is called the middle voice in Greek. That is, the vessel itself made itself a condition of a vessel for destruction. Nowhere in the text does it ever say God makes a good vessel for a vessel of destruction.

Just like Judas Iscariot, he didn't become evil and filled with Satan because God says "You come here, I need to put Satan in you because I need somebody to be an evil disciple." The bible says he was evil already, and that Jesus literally chose, and that's what He said in John Chapter 6, "Haven't I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a demon." He needed somebody who was evil to fulfil the role of an evil disciple. But Judas was already evil.

So a vessel fitted for destruction, and the word fitted means that the vessel conditions itself to be fitted for destruction. God doesn't do it. But once it's fitted for destruction, and it is a vessel of destruction, God uses it. He uses both honorable vessels and dishonorable vessels. He'll use them both for His glory and for His honor out of His choice.

Proverb 16:4 does not lead me to believe that God predestines anyone to heaven or hell. It is true that God creates all things, and he uses both good and evil people for His purposes. Evil people are not evil because God made them evil. Evil is what they have chosen for themselves.

The belief that God predestines people to heaven or hell would negate so many verses that show us that salvation is offered up and given to every single person who calls out to the Lord to have mercy on them and to save them. Even John 3:16, the verse everyone knows, that word "whosoever" would mean every single person.

Something else to consider. If a person repents of their sin, surrenders their life to Christ, and is a true follower of Jesus Christ their entire life, but God has already "predestined" that person to hell, wouldn't that go against every doctrine that speaks of salvation? Vice Versa?

Dear Predestination,

I'm going to take John 15:26 first, and this is one that has been taken out of context to show that God predestines people to heaven or hell.

Jesus says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: So people use this text as a text to show that predestination, that God chooses people to be saved, and that He chooses some to not be saved.



The problem is that the Greek word for chosen here, and please keep in mind that He's talking to his apostles, the final 11 or 12 that are with Him, and it's the same word used in Luke 6:13 that has a do with the Lord choosing the apostles from out of the disciples and that is what the text means in context.



He hasn't chosen them to be saved and leaving everybody else to be lost. He has chosen these apostles from out of His disciples. So these people were already His disciples but He made choices who would step up and become the apostles.

I am off to bed. I will look at the other verses and respond tomorrow.

Thanks Brother Jesse for that clear & concise definition of 'predestination'. Indeed, that is how we see (or, should see) the word used in Scriptures pertaining to those in Christ. I think some may be incorrectly understanding that word, when they should rather refer to God's choosing or God's election of specific persons. Even here, I see it as God's prerogative based on His Foreknowledge & Purposes.

Chris,

Thank you, and amen my brother!

Jesse,

Thank you. I did read all of it. It makes good sense to me and I appreciate the time you took to lay this out over these posts.

GiGi,

Thanks for reading that long post. I try to avoid posting lengthy posts but sometimes you just need more space to say the things you want to say. I used to have a wrong view on predestination thinking that it didn't matter if I thought I was saved if God spreader predetermined my fate. I hope what I posted will help those who might have the same thoughts.

By the way, I have been following along in the thread where you were accused of being in err and I don't see the error. I do agree with the things you've said and your proper interpretation of scripture.

Many blessings to you!!!

Thanks, Jesse.

GiGi,

I don't know how the word spreader ended up in my reply to you. Please replace it with already. That's what I typed!

ok. that makes sense. I usually try to check the context of the sentence to see if I can figure out the word that was inteneded when I see a mistaken word.

Predestination (Part 4):

So just leaving you with that, and you can look up the word predestinate in a concordance. But hopefully what I've shared with you, you will be able to see that it always points to what God has predestinated us believers to be before Him.

That really solves all the arguments and the divisions in the body of Christ. Some people just want to send people to Hell. They say "You know God chose you to go to Hell." Well, that's good news. I'm glad to hear that!

But Christ died for everybody. He knows ahead of time who's going to receive Him, but He never makes anybody receive Him or reject Him. We see more of this in Romans Chapter 9. The argument is that if God chooses everything and everybody to be the way they are, then how can I be violating His will or His word? "I'm only being what He chose me to be!"

So Paul's going to say "Is there unrighteousness with God? You mean He chose you to be an unrighteous person? That's His will for your life?" No, He didn't!

There are some certain principles in the text that's going to teach us exactly God's approach to the whole thing. How did He choose Jacob over Esau before they were even born? "Jacob I have loved, and Esau I have hated."

What a terrible thing, unless you understand the wording and what it's applied to. Before they were born and before they did good or evil, God chose one of them through which would be the promised line of Messiah.

That's not choosing Heaven or Hell, or righteousness or unrighteousness. Even Ishmael, when God said to Abraham that if Sarah wants to get out of here with her son, let them go. I'll take care of them.

One more part, I promise!!!

Predestination (Part 3):

Here's an example I can give to explain it. If you were going to go in and apply for a job, one of the things you want to know is what are the benefits, what you have predestined for the person that's going to take that spot. What kind of dental care do you have? What kind of health benefits do you have? What's the pay going to be?

All of these things are predestined ahead of time for the person that's offered the job and accepts the job. So if I walk in and I give my interview and they say we want you to work here and we want you to do this job if you are willing to do it, and I accept, I have all of these benefits waiting for me. They're mine!

And that is the presentation that Paul always makes, is that we are inheritors in Christ. And before the foundation of the world, things were chosen and predestined for us, (that is, everybody that is saved).

Predestination in the bible never has anything to do with predestinating people for Heaven or Hell. It's never used that way. But people will say "Having predestinated us," and they stop right there and they say, "You see, I'm one of the "us" because I got predestined to be an "us."

But that's not what it says. He's talking to saved people, not unsaved people. Every single time the word predestinated is used in the scriptures, it always makes reference to part of our inheritance in Christ. If He did not choose me and predestine me to be holy and without blame before Him in His love, I'd never be able to stand before Him. But I've received Christ as part of my inheritance.

Now I'm not saying that great scholars like Calvin and some of the others are wrong. I can see in their presentations and their arguments over the years that they did the best with what they had.

If I diagram and do a schematic of that whole chapter and show where the antecedents are and who are the we's and us's, I see that it's always the saved people, not to the unsaved.

Predestination (Part 2):

Here is the Ephesians text: Ephesians 1:4-5 says "According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."

Remember Verses 3 through 14 is all one sentence in the Greek text. And I want to make a technical point. Whenever you have a noun, like a person, and you mention this person's name, and throughout the paragraph or chapter, you want to make reference to that person, you don't keep mentioning his name.

Let's say his name is Jesse. You don't keep saying Jesse in every sentence. Once you're introduced to the person, you make reference to "him," and "he."

Those are all pronouns and its antecedent is Jesse so that whenever you see he or him in the sentences, you know who this person is talking about.

So Jesse becomes the antecedent once it's introduced. Now what is interesting, do you see the pronouns? According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.

Who is the "Us?" And that we should be holy without blame before Him in love. Having predestinated us for adoption.

In this text, in Verses 3 through 14, the subject in the Greek text is in Verses 13 and 14 way beyond all of this. So the antecedent to us and we, who is the us and we?

So I got to find out who or what the antecedent is for us and we. If you go to Verses 13 and 14, it tells you. "We who have heard the gospel, we who have believed, and we who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. That's who the us and we are!

God has predestinated us, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. The adoption process has been predestined for us so that we can become children of God, according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. Later on it says that He has predestinated us to be holy without blame, just like He did in Verse 4.

Predestination (Part 1):

I would like to share my understanding on predestination. This may be a little long, but I think it is an important topic that should be addressed.

I am reading over Romans 8:29 which reads, "For whom he did foreknow, (know ahead of time), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Please allow me to share a little bit with you about predestination. Actually, predestination in the bible is very simple to understand. In Ephesians 1:3-14, in the Greek text, these verses are all one sentence. And that's the chapter that most people focus on when it comes to predestination.

The most prominent teaching on predestination that we have today comes from John Calvin and there are differences, as people take different turns with it as to what predestination means.

But the one that's going around that people hold to a lot is that predestination means that God predestines or chooses those who are going to be saved ahead of time, and He predestines those who are going to go to Hell ahead of time.

So according to that belief, you are chosen and predestined as to whether you are going to go to Heaven or Hell. You have no choice. There's no free will according to this teaching. You are either predestined one way or the other.

But please notice in this text, in context, what it says. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Predestinate what? "To be conformed to the image of his Son."

Predestination is never associated with salvation in the bible. You will always see the word associated with those who are already saved. And it won't be salvation. It's what has been predestined or chosen for us as part of our inheritance.

Romans 9 supplies the answer. More specifically Romans 9: 9to 12. It is God's sovereign choice as he says in verse 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad but in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls. So the answer based upon these verses is that God did the election which means the individual had no choice in the matter. Remember God chose Jacob over Esau before either one had done good or bad. Which means no choice was given to either to make the decision for Christ or the decision to reject Christ. God does the choosing. Now verse 14 on down you will see that Paul actually answers the question of whether or not God is unjust. Consider that all men born are born into sin then all men are worthy of damnation. However, the fact that God chooses to show his Mercy in granting salvation to some and not to others does not make him unfair. For all men are worthy of eternal damnation. But the fact that he chooses to save some just demonstrates his Mercy not Injustice. For to give man what he deserves is justice. To save some from that Justice is Mercy. Study Romans 9 and it should become much more clear to you. Hope this helps.

There have traditionally been two main camps since midieval times; that of the Calvanists believing in Predestination (along with some other early theologians) and those of the "Arminian" or free will camp. There is no doubt that there is a predetermined path known beforehand by God (and translated predestined as Romans 8:29 states). The debate is to whether it is the individual who is always referred to or the PLAN that is established from eternity for the church in general to conform us into His image. It ends up being a logic sort of argument; basically stating that we are "totally depraved" which is deduced from many verses showing that man is estranged from the womb ( Psalm 58:3); and many other scriptures indicating that since the fall of Adam we are all in the nature of fallen man. It does seem clear that without Divine guidance we are indeed unable to do any good works ( Isaiah 64:6).

We cannot ignore Romans 1 and Psalm 19; two examples that show man deliberately ignoring the obvious design of nature and His Divine attributes. Man has a conscience; but that is already subjective as to our own emotions and will and fallen; and sin hardens it further so that it can become seared ( 1 Tim. 4:2). It is clear whatever school of thought we entertain that God knows who will be saved and who won't be ultimately as He knows all things. Jesus knew His sheep ( John 10:14); but also that Gospel shows that those who are NOT His sheep ( John 10:26). It is pretty clear that God has predetermined all who Christ will die for in that Gospel as well. We really don't get these concepts BEFORE in time and space we come to a state of repentance and new birth (again; things GIVEN by God). We must repent and be held accountable; whether it is for works done apart from grace for nonbelievers; or those done as believers at the Bema Seat Judgment. We also must agree that God is fair; judges impartially; and doesn't rejoice in the death of the wicked. (see Deut 29:29).

You can at any time commit your life to follow Jesus. His message was to all peoples, everywhere. He said, FOLLOW ME.

That means following what the New Testament (covenant) preaches and teaches. The Bible. If we don't read it after Salvation, we're still in the dark about what it means to follow Jesus.

It means turning your whole life over to Jesus; being Born Again. John chapter 3. When you make the commitment, Jesus baptizes you with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps you understand what it means to be a Christ follower. He is YOUR Teacher of the Bible. He lives in your heart and mind. He will help you learn how to follow Jesus: the things we used to do without thinking about it, He leads us to be able to put it down and let go of sinning. We learn something new every day :D In time, we are experiencing the enabling through Holy Spirits strengthening inside of us; to be able to live it on the outside.

We can hold back (for a time) giving our whole hearts to Him; but His ministry to us is so sweet and real, we realize that He truly is in our life (day to day, and nights too). Our habits and values change. Reading the New Testament, Proverbs and even Psalms, empowers us to make changes.

No person has to go to hell. Lots of people believe there is no hell; that hell is just getting through each day. Jesus lives to change that reality. Faith in the Savior (not rituals or trying to be good), will help you to depend upon Jesus for Love, Wisdom, and assurance that your destination is in Heaven.

He totally took my sinful life and changed me in about 6 months. I gave him all the mess of me, and He gave me Himself. Transformed me. Experiencing peace will change you__and you want more of Him. Things you used to do, you don't want to do anymore. Because sin is painful. Things hurt us and we don't want that pain anymore.

Read the Link "Become A Believer" out on the red entrance page. Pray that prayer if u mean it.

Blessings on you.

The moment Adam and Eve sinned everyone born after them was disconnected from eternal fellowship with God, in the Throne room of God, until God provided redemption from the sin of Adam and Eve through the substitutionary, sacrificial offering of Christ Jesus, the Son of God, on the cross of Calvary to give salvation from sin to as many as believe that this response to sin is the absolute and only cure for mankind in this life and in the life to come; thereby diverting the believer from the pathway to hell, upon which everyone naturally travels from birth because of Adam and Eve's fall from grace and innocence in the beginning.