Don i know that Jesus said there wd be few that wd be saved...But that was under the old covenant the law....But under the New Covenant he says i will know them ALL which is an intimacy that is gona result in a birth of Christ in everybody....Thays y Isaiah saw KNOWLEDGE covering the earth as the waters cover the seas....Thus the lord will KNOW everybody UNDER THIS NEW COVENANT.
.....When Jesus spoke of the BABES AND SUCKLINGS which are his seed the words of the book, living words ....Those are the ones who are gonna be preordained and predestinated as Gen 22 : 17 speaks of his seed that are gona be as the stars of heaven in multitude which are the babes and sucklings....His seed which are spirits the H.G. plural an Israel of God....Mankind can only be a joint heir with the H.G. that Child of Promise....The H.G.
When ya interpret Romans 8 : 29 as being a few men then you are in essence saying that Christ only died for a few men which wd be a false doctrine...Verse 33 in ROMANS 8... Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods Elect,...Its only the H.G. that is Gods Elect...The ISRAEL of God....Its only the H.G. that is the Gift of God the Israel of God as Jesus told the woman at the well.
.....Mans carnal mind cannot comprehend the enormity of Gods love for humanity and his new Covenant...I will KNOW them all from the least to the greatest...Thus the babes and sucklings the Children of Promise..And thats who is preordained b/f the world was....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven and God was so passionate about this Promise that he swore by himself....Thats y Jesus was saying to whom the WORD came it made them Gods ....Don't believe Tulip doctrine its of the Devil its the result of taking the bible literal...mans carnal mind etc....ok lemme go
Don i hear ya....But we have to realise that it wd make God Almighty a hypocrite if he only saved a few....When the stain and the spot of adam was applied to ALL MEN no exceptions....We get into Tulip mans carnal doctrine of Gd only saving a few...And the rest of humanity going to hell...I know that Jesus said few will be saved...But this is only for LIL WHILE it was hid from the wise and prudent but revealed unto Babes and Sucklings....But our Lord said if i be belifted up I will draw all men unto me....This is what happened when carnal man tries to interpret the scriptures....We gotta realise that the greatest predestination Scripture is when God swore by himself that CHRIST wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven Genisis 22 : 17 kjv.
.....This Romans 8 : 29 is not about man being glorified but about Christ being predestinated and Glorified and man being a joint heir with Christ....Its Christ that is gonna be the 1st born of many brethren...If ya interpret Romans 8 : 29 as man being GLORIFIED and preordained you are in essence saying that satan is gonna be preordained....Thats how Tulip got started that only a few wd be saved and all the rest wd go to hell....In essence saying that Jesus wd only die for a few..In essence saying that God neva did love the whole world just a few which wd make God a respector of persons...This TULIP doctrine was the result of bible schools ( carnal teaching ) ... Zech 12 : 10 tells us that its Christ that is gona be the 1st born of many brethren.
.....Mankind can only be a Joint HEIR with Christ....Its only Christ and his seed that is gona be multiplied as the stars of heaven Gen 22 : 17 kjv...ALL of mankind carried the stain and the spot of adam which is our old adamic nature that HAS to go thru the baptism of fire and the H.G. As Jesus said every sinner has to have his part in the lake of fire...which is God as our God is a consuming fire that wants to consume mans Evil Adamic nature....Its only the babes n sucklings .
Hello Don. You asked, "has God preselected the ones who are to be saved through Christ?" I believe He has. But I don't believe that's the full story, because as you shared the reference Romans 8:29, those whom God has predestined were those He also foreknew.
If we then look at those aspects of God's Work in Romans 8:29,30, we see firstly, His Foreknowledge (a knowledge of all things past, present & future). Based on that knowledge, He predestined some to become His children (as His Son is & His adopted ones would be - Ephesians 1:5). Then God's Work upon us begins: those predestined are now called to come to Him/drawn to Him - John 6:44. Those whom He has called, God applied to them the outcome of the Cross, i.e. of Justification - the guilty declared not guilty by reason of substitutionary payment made on their behalf. And those so justified, have received glorification - in part now with the indwelling Holy Spirit (the "earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" - our completed redemption & glorification fitted out for Heaven: Ephesians 1:14).
Then what part "does our faith in Christ Jesus do for us?" Those whom God has predestined, called, & justified, are those who would be blessed with the gift of Faith - Faith that is needed for God's Grace to do its mighty work ( Ephesians 2:8). What then is the Gift of God? It is both His Grace poured out upon us plus the Faith to apprehend it & fully rest in it. One might ask, 'Can such a person drawn of God resist Him?' I would reply with questions: 'Would God even draw one who wouldn't be saved? Would the one being drawn want to resist the Love of God in Christ & the Holy Spirit's Work of Conviction? And, even if barriers were set up by Satan to obstruct the passage of the sinner into eternal life, would not the God Who makes no mistakes, still bear upon the sinner that he might understand the Truth & find that his hope lay in Christ alone?' John 6:37-40 - none of His will be lost.
I have always wrestle with the area, as I do with " free will" . In my feeble mind these two concepts tend to oppose each other.
If God, all knowledgeable , all knowing, has predestined ones to be His faithful sons and daughters, then he has predestined others to " hell". Based on this, do we truly have " free will", at least in this area.
By the way, I seriously wrestle with this, and have for many years, it is such a cloudy area for me.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom (in Christ) we (all creation) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS WILL.
Part of God's will is that ONLY a FEW will receive their inheritance in the first resurrection.
The rest will receive their inheritance after the second resurrection.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest EXPECTATION of the creature WAITETH (till the second resurrection) for the manifestation of the Sons of God (first resurrection).
Romans 8:21 Because the creature ITSELF shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION (the grave, second resurrection) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Why are they waiting until the second resurrection, the resurrection to JUDGEMENT.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them (second resurrection) the JUDGEMENT WRITTEN (their inheritance), this HONOUR hath all his saints (first resurrection).
Isaiah 26:9 ....for when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the earth (second resurrection) the inhabitants of the world (second resurrection) will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
1 Corinthians 15:28 .....that God may be ALL IN ALL.
I agree Don, this subject can be very intriguing. Each one has to come to grips with it in his own way according to the light granted him.
My belief rests upon all the Scriptures I can bring together on theology; & even then I remain open to the many Truths that exist that I'm not privy to.
From what you've written, I always try to separate what man sees & understands and what God already knows & determines accordingly. My (human) view is that God has granted me free will, even as I exercise it continually, daily. In respect to spiritual conversion, I responded to His Spirit's bearing upon me. But did my free will & reception of Jesus catch God by surprise & compelled Him to alter His Plans for my life, both present & into eternity? No.
Because of God's View: He already knew I would exercise the free will granted me & the resulting paths I would tread in life, either destined for good or evil. Then as a believer, hopefully I will no longer exercise my Will according to carnal determinations but to the Spirit's leading.
And likewise with re-birth: as much as Christ's Sacrifice has availed for all mankind, not all will respond to the plea. Does God then select who He wants & who will be rejected? Or is His 'selection' fully based on what He already knows will transpire with each soul? Or else, how could it be said that "He is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance"?
With that said, it can be erroneously assumed that God is partial & conducts a lottery to accept some & reject others. If a man is damned for eternity, it's because he has refused to turn from sin & to a waiting Savior & will not have excuse in that day of judgement saying, 'I tried to come but I was refused or was not destined by God to be saved '.
So Ron, I always try & understand such 'mysteries' from God's perspective & because of Who He is, because my human view will always lead me to error & confusion. May He lead you in your further thoughts on this.
So has God preselected the ones who are to be saved through Christ? Then, what does our faith in Christ Jesus do for us?
This, as I understand, is one of the main differences between Baptist and Presbyterian beliefs.
.....When Jesus spoke of the BABES AND SUCKLINGS which are his seed the words of the book, living words ....Those are the ones who are gonna be preordained and predestinated as Gen 22 : 17 speaks of his seed that are gona be as the stars of heaven in multitude which are the babes and sucklings....His seed which are spirits the H.G. plural an Israel of God....Mankind can only be a joint heir with the H.G. that Child of Promise....The H.G.
When ya interpret Romans 8 : 29 as being a few men then you are in essence saying that Christ only died for a few men which wd be a false doctrine...Verse 33 in ROMANS 8... Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods Elect,...Its only the H.G. that is Gods Elect...The ISRAEL of God....Its only the H.G. that is the Gift of God the Israel of God as Jesus told the woman at the well.
.....Mans carnal mind cannot comprehend the enormity of Gods love for humanity and his new Covenant...I will KNOW them all from the least to the greatest...Thus the babes and sucklings the Children of Promise..And thats who is preordained b/f the world was....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven and God was so passionate about this Promise that he swore by himself....Thats y Jesus was saying to whom the WORD came it made them Gods ....Don't believe Tulip doctrine its of the Devil its the result of taking the bible literal...mans carnal mind etc....ok lemme go
.....This Romans 8 : 29 is not about man being glorified but about Christ being predestinated and Glorified and man being a joint heir with Christ....Its Christ that is gonna be the 1st born of many brethren...If ya interpret Romans 8 : 29 as man being GLORIFIED and preordained you are in essence saying that satan is gonna be preordained....Thats how Tulip got started that only a few wd be saved and all the rest wd go to hell....In essence saying that Jesus wd only die for a few..In essence saying that God neva did love the whole world just a few which wd make God a respector of persons...This TULIP doctrine was the result of bible schools ( carnal teaching ) ... Zech 12 : 10 tells us that its Christ that is gona be the 1st born of many brethren.
.....Mankind can only be a Joint HEIR with Christ....Its only Christ and his seed that is gona be multiplied as the stars of heaven Gen 22 : 17 kjv...ALL of mankind carried the stain and the spot of adam which is our old adamic nature that HAS to go thru the baptism of fire and the H.G. As Jesus said every sinner has to have his part in the lake of fire...which is God as our God is a consuming fire that wants to consume mans Evil Adamic nature....Its only the babes n sucklings .
If we then look at those aspects of God's Work in Romans 8:29,30, we see firstly, His Foreknowledge (a knowledge of all things past, present & future). Based on that knowledge, He predestined some to become His children (as His Son is & His adopted ones would be - Ephesians 1:5). Then God's Work upon us begins: those predestined are now called to come to Him/drawn to Him - John 6:44. Those whom He has called, God applied to them the outcome of the Cross, i.e. of Justification - the guilty declared not guilty by reason of substitutionary payment made on their behalf. And those so justified, have received glorification - in part now with the indwelling Holy Spirit (the "earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" - our completed redemption & glorification fitted out for Heaven: Ephesians 1:14).
Then what part "does our faith in Christ Jesus do for us?" Those whom God has predestined, called, & justified, are those who would be blessed with the gift of Faith - Faith that is needed for God's Grace to do its mighty work ( Ephesians 2:8). What then is the Gift of God? It is both His Grace poured out upon us plus the Faith to apprehend it & fully rest in it. One might ask, 'Can such a person drawn of God resist Him?' I would reply with questions: 'Would God even draw one who wouldn't be saved? Would the one being drawn want to resist the Love of God in Christ & the Holy Spirit's Work of Conviction? And, even if barriers were set up by Satan to obstruct the passage of the sinner into eternal life, would not the God Who makes no mistakes, still bear upon the sinner that he might understand the Truth & find that his hope lay in Christ alone?' John 6:37-40 - none of His will be lost.
Thank you for your nice reply.
I have always wrestle with the area, as I do with " free will" . In my feeble mind these two concepts tend to oppose each other.
If God, all knowledgeable , all knowing, has predestined ones to be His faithful sons and daughters, then he has predestined others to " hell". Based on this, do we truly have " free will", at least in this area.
By the way, I seriously wrestle with this, and have for many years, it is such a cloudy area for me.
Have a blessed day.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom (in Christ) we (all creation) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS WILL.
Part of God's will is that ONLY a FEW will receive their inheritance in the first resurrection.
The rest will receive their inheritance after the second resurrection.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest EXPECTATION of the creature WAITETH (till the second resurrection) for the manifestation of the Sons of God (first resurrection).
Romans 8:21 Because the creature ITSELF shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION (the grave, second resurrection) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Why are they waiting until the second resurrection, the resurrection to JUDGEMENT.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them (second resurrection) the JUDGEMENT WRITTEN (their inheritance), this HONOUR hath all his saints (first resurrection).
Isaiah 26:9 ....for when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the earth (second resurrection) the inhabitants of the world (second resurrection) will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
1 Corinthians 15:28 .....that God may be ALL IN ALL.
God Bless YOU!
My belief rests upon all the Scriptures I can bring together on theology; & even then I remain open to the many Truths that exist that I'm not privy to.
From what you've written, I always try to separate what man sees & understands and what God already knows & determines accordingly. My (human) view is that God has granted me free will, even as I exercise it continually, daily. In respect to spiritual conversion, I responded to His Spirit's bearing upon me. But did my free will & reception of Jesus catch God by surprise & compelled Him to alter His Plans for my life, both present & into eternity? No.
Because of God's View: He already knew I would exercise the free will granted me & the resulting paths I would tread in life, either destined for good or evil. Then as a believer, hopefully I will no longer exercise my Will according to carnal determinations but to the Spirit's leading.
And likewise with re-birth: as much as Christ's Sacrifice has availed for all mankind, not all will respond to the plea. Does God then select who He wants & who will be rejected? Or is His 'selection' fully based on what He already knows will transpire with each soul? Or else, how could it be said that "He is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance"?
With that said, it can be erroneously assumed that God is partial & conducts a lottery to accept some & reject others. If a man is damned for eternity, it's because he has refused to turn from sin & to a waiting Savior & will not have excuse in that day of judgement saying, 'I tried to come but I was refused or was not destined by God to be saved '.
So Ron, I always try & understand such 'mysteries' from God's perspective & because of Who He is, because my human view will always lead me to error & confusion. May He lead you in your further thoughts on this.
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