Hi dear "Marke" there is no one who can see this light you describe without the Holy Spirit. God will bless you with even more revelation and the spirit of knowledge Amen.
Romans 5:13 f. Demonstration, that the death of all has its ground in the sin of Adam, and the causal connection of that sin with death. This argument, conducted with great conciseness, sets out from the undoubted historical certainty (it is already sufficiently attested in Genesis 4-6) that during the entire period prior to the law ( Romans 5:14) there was sin in humanity; then further argues that the death of individuals, which yet has affected those also who have not like Adam sinned against a positive command, cannot be derived from that sin (sin against a positive command) prior to the law, because in the non-existence of law there is no imputation; and allows it to be thence inferred that consequently the death of all has been caused by the sin of Adam (not by their individual sins). Paul however leaves this inference to the reader himself; he does not expressly declare it, but instead of doing so he says, returning to the comparison begun in Romans 5:12 : for in that death-working operation of Adam's sin for all lay, in fact, the very ground of the typical relation to Christ.
Romans 5:13-21 is all designed to prove the declaration started in Roman's 5:12:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13-14 shows that a lack of law couldn't stop the consequences of Adam's sin for mankind and Romans 5:20-21 shows the law only made it worse since in Adam more commands only = more sin. Paul shows Adam as a figure for (Jesus Christ) that was to come ( Romans 5:14) by paired comparisons of Adam and Christ. He gives the differences in the consequences of their acts ( Romans 5:15-17) before returning to what he started in Romans 5:12 that presents the similarities in the consequences of their acts ( Romans 5:18-19). Death/sin from Adam include spiritual death since life/righteousness from Christ includes spiritual life in this passage.
Every sinner born into the world will later die because of sin inherited from Adam. That is what the Bible refers to as the first death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who die the second death will die for their own sins, not Adam's.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Marke remember what Jesus said every sinner will have their part in the lake of fire...Every sinner thats everybody...Its simply his baptism of fire that we all soo need...Gotta remember our God is a consuming fire H.G fire..Whom the lord loveth he chastens WHICH IS HIS BAPTISM OF FIRE.... Mal. 3 Who shall abide the day of his coming, who shall stand when he appears..For he shall be as a refiners fire and fullers soap...Impling a cleansing fire...Thats what we need is his judgement...Even in the natural gold has to be tried in the fire to remove all the impurities....our carnal minds etc...Adam's sin nature...That man of sin shall be revealed in the last day....
......But do you see b/c of Adam Disobedience we will all get that refiners fire, which is baptism of the H.G and fire A heavenly birth ....That new Creature...the H.G.
baptism of the H.G. that free Gift...Jesus asked that woman at the well if thou knewest the gift of God ...and who it is that askest of thee to drink...you wd have asked of him etc...Gotta realize that our God is a consuming fire....Which is his judgement
Its only by the blood of the lamb of God that the curse of Adam is removed...Not by the blood of bulls and goats Moses law....
When someone tells you that the curse of Adam was removed by Moses law you are eating sour grapes....That can be passed on to the Children..As false Doctrine....Only by the Blood of the lamb can that curse of Adam be removed....Lest our lord shed his blood in vain....
No, not all sinners will go to the lake of fire. Just those who reject Jesus when drawn to Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Jesus did remove the curse by His sacrifice for the sin of the world, thereby reconciling the world unto God.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You do like picking out a single verse that supports your point when looked at all by itself, but a proof text doesn't work in this case (or in most cases actually). You have to at least address these verses to trace the idea you have proposed all the way through. Every one of these verses pair an aspect of Adam's fall with a counteracting aspect of Jesus Christ's saving work. A consistent pattern for handling all of these pairs and both halves within each pair would be what I would expect from Paul and should be given the benefit of the doubt over any inconsistent pattern for handling them absent a compelling reason for breaking the pattern.
Maybe it would help to look at this from a different angle. Let's examine what the Bible says is the reason or are the reasons sinners go to hell.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
I conclude from the text that God desires to save sinners because He loves them.
I conclude from the text that God defines condemnation as rejecting the light He sheds on sinners by the Holy Spirit
I conclude sinners are condemned for refusing to accept the light and refusing to come to the light when drawn by the Holy Ghost.
I conclude Adam and Eve were not created loving the darkness. Nor were they created doing evil deeds. Eve was not created deceived. They were not created with enmity in their hearts toward the light. Emnity only existed in the heart of the serpent toward God,, not man when he first comes on the scene, and this enmity extended to man. His lies are the original source of spiritual darkness, and he practiced deception on Eve to get her to make Adam disobey God. That introduced enmity between the serpent's seed and the seed of the woman who is Christ. Do you say otherwise?
John 3 presupposes all of scripture is true since "In the beginning". He does not dispute anything Moses wrote, and in fact he makes it perfectly clear from the first words he wrote that Moses testimony is already entered into the record against mankind. Do you dispute that that? I don't.
Arguing that the reason for the evil condemned in this passage is not attributed to Adam directly is irrelevant, because he has already plainly referenced it before and Chapter 3 cannot be interpreted as though Chapter 1 of his Gospel doesn't exist.
If man was originally created without darkness in his heart, nor doing evil deeds and in fact literally lacked the knowledge of good and evil, as scripture clearly states in Genesis, how did it come about that mankind in John 3 now practices evil deeds and loves the darkness and hates the light with enmity? The condemnation John is talking about is completely impossible without the enmity of the serpent's seed against the seed of the woman that entered the world through God's curse upon the serpent when Adam and Eve fell.
You plainly like to take God's words out of context, use them in isolation, and then apply them as though the rest of His word doesn't exist. That is an extremely bad way to interpret scripture.
I agree with your assessment of the devil and Adam in the Garden of Eden. I think you must be misunderstanding make when I say sinners are not condemned to hell for the sins of others, even for the sins of Adam, but are condemned for their own sin of rejecting Jesus. Here are more scriptures to highlight what I believe:
John 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
I mentioned earlier the sin of rejecting Jesus when enlightened by other Holy Spirit to come to Jesus for salvation. Some people call that the unpardonable sin. Jesus said in Mark 3 there is one sin that shall never be forgiven. John 3 says condemnation is rejecting the light. All of these verses say the same thing. Sinners are not condemned to hell because they were born sinners or did some bad things in their life. Sinners are condemned to hell for rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit which has been made clear to them.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
I agree that all sinners are born sinners because of inherited sin from Adam. I don't know how many times or ways I can say that to convince you that I understand and believe that. However, I get the impression that you think a sinner will stand before God and that God will condemn the sinner to hell for Adam's sin. I do not believe that.
I believe the sin that sends sinners to hell is the sin of rejecting the Word of God clearly delivered to that sinner by the Holy Ghost so that the sinner who rejects that clear understanding will be without excuse if he rejects it.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
I do not dispute that our own sins will be judged. But they are not the origin of sin in me or anyone else. The origin of sin in me was Adam's sin and it was already condemned. The disposition that hated the light already existed from the moment I was conceived.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This is part of David's confession of his sin with Uriah's wife and his murder of Uriah. It is a confession I make.
This corruption of nature did not originate with me, and it did not originate from man's original created state. That corruption originated in Adam's deed of eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil against the commandment of God that carried the penalty of death. Was the penalty of death in that commandment only what occurred to Adam's during his 930th year when he physically died? No.
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam was under the penalty of death the day he ate of the fruit, and it's guilt was sufficient to deny him the ability to live one more day. The penalty of death and judgement of all mankind could have taken place on the very day Adam's ate. Satan was counting on that, since he was judged that way. None of us would even exist had God chosen to carry out the penalty of death that way, and He was within His rights to do that, as he later showed under the Law when the penalties of those commandments were carried out the day it was confirmed by two witnesses.
The 930 years and the birth of every human being since was all of grace. The animal(s) that died that day clothed them to give us all physical life. But not spiritual life
Our mere existence is a gift of grace. And the origin of righteousness and justification in me now is not my righteous deeds or my righteous disposition it is of faith in Christ's righteousness, both in his deeds and in His nature.
Marke let me remind you they died even before the law, death reigned from Adam to Moses before the law... Romans 5 : 19 ..For by 1 mans disobedience many were made sinners. And by 1 mans offence ( Adam ) judgement came upon ALL MEN to Condemnation...Even by the obedience of 1 man Christ Jesus shall many be made righteous...Now we see Ezech 18 in a better light...Lemme me tells ya abit about EZECH 18 Its about LAW SIN...Transgresssion of the law ..Under the law sin cd not be mputed to the Fathers Children....their sons ..Simply b/c the sons were already under the curse of Adam. They were were already under the curse of the law it wd be Double Jeopardy if God imputed the sins of the fathers to the Children...They ALL were already under the curse of ADAM and that CURSE CD NOT BELIFTED BUT BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB...Meaning only by Christ Jesus....Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...But by the blood of an animal they got an annual reprieve...for law sin...But that did not get them the kingdom or a new heart or a new spirit...But if God imputed sin to the Sons for their fathers trangressions that wd be Double Jeopardy...As God is not unfair in anyway...
Every human ever born has either already died or will die because of Adam's sin. But nobody goes to hell because of Adam's sin. Sinners go to hell for their own sin and that sin is not the sin of ignorance.
Sin is not imputed where there is no law.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
What does that tell us?
1. That nobody goes to hell for Adam's sin.
2. Salvation is not given to sinners for keeping the law.
Matthew 16
Meyer's NT Commentary
Romans 5:13 f. Demonstration, that the death of all has its ground in the sin of Adam, and the causal connection of that sin with death. This argument, conducted with great conciseness, sets out from the undoubted historical certainty (it is already sufficiently attested in Genesis 4-6) that during the entire period prior to the law ( Romans 5:14) there was sin in humanity; then further argues that the death of individuals, which yet has affected those also who have not like Adam sinned against a positive command, cannot be derived from that sin (sin against a positive command) prior to the law, because in the non-existence of law there is no imputation; and allows it to be thence inferred that consequently the death of all has been caused by the sin of Adam (not by their individual sins). Paul however leaves this inference to the reader himself; he does not expressly declare it, but instead of doing so he says, returning to the comparison begun in Romans 5:12 : for in that death-working operation of Adam's sin for all lay, in fact, the very ground of the typical relation to Christ.
Romans 5:13-21 is all designed to prove the declaration started in Roman's 5:12:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13-14 shows that a lack of law couldn't stop the consequences of Adam's sin for mankind and Romans 5:20-21 shows the law only made it worse since in Adam more commands only = more sin. Paul shows Adam as a figure for (Jesus Christ) that was to come ( Romans 5:14) by paired comparisons of Adam and Christ. He gives the differences in the consequences of their acts ( Romans 5:15-17) before returning to what he started in Romans 5:12 that presents the similarities in the consequences of their acts ( Romans 5:18-19). Death/sin from Adam include spiritual death since life/righteousness from Christ includes spiritual life in this passage.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who die the second death will die for their own sins, not Adam's.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
......But do you see b/c of Adam Disobedience we will all get that refiners fire, which is baptism of the H.G and fire A heavenly birth ....That new Creature...the H.G.
baptism of the H.G. that free Gift...Jesus asked that woman at the well if thou knewest the gift of God ...and who it is that askest of thee to drink...you wd have asked of him etc...Gotta realize that our God is a consuming fire....Which is his judgement
Its only by the blood of the lamb of God that the curse of Adam is removed...Not by the blood of bulls and goats Moses law....
When someone tells you that the curse of Adam was removed by Moses law you are eating sour grapes....That can be passed on to the Children..As false Doctrine....Only by the Blood of the lamb can that curse of Adam be removed....Lest our lord shed his blood in vain....
[Comment Removed]
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You do like picking out a single verse that supports your point when looked at all by itself, but a proof text doesn't work in this case (or in most cases actually). You have to at least address these verses to trace the idea you have proposed all the way through. Every one of these verses pair an aspect of Adam's fall with a counteracting aspect of Jesus Christ's saving work. A consistent pattern for handling all of these pairs and both halves within each pair would be what I would expect from Paul and should be given the benefit of the doubt over any inconsistent pattern for handling them absent a compelling reason for breaking the pattern.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
I conclude from the text that God desires to save sinners because He loves them.
I conclude from the text that God defines condemnation as rejecting the light He sheds on sinners by the Holy Spirit
I conclude sinners are condemned for refusing to accept the light and refusing to come to the light when drawn by the Holy Ghost.
Agree?
John 3 presupposes all of scripture is true since "In the beginning". He does not dispute anything Moses wrote, and in fact he makes it perfectly clear from the first words he wrote that Moses testimony is already entered into the record against mankind. Do you dispute that that? I don't.
Arguing that the reason for the evil condemned in this passage is not attributed to Adam directly is irrelevant, because he has already plainly referenced it before and Chapter 3 cannot be interpreted as though Chapter 1 of his Gospel doesn't exist.
If man was originally created without darkness in his heart, nor doing evil deeds and in fact literally lacked the knowledge of good and evil, as scripture clearly states in Genesis, how did it come about that mankind in John 3 now practices evil deeds and loves the darkness and hates the light with enmity? The condemnation John is talking about is completely impossible without the enmity of the serpent's seed against the seed of the woman that entered the world through God's curse upon the serpent when Adam and Eve fell.
You plainly like to take God's words out of context, use them in isolation, and then apply them as though the rest of His word doesn't exist. That is an extremely bad way to interpret scripture.
John 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
I mentioned earlier the sin of rejecting Jesus when enlightened by other Holy Spirit to come to Jesus for salvation. Some people call that the unpardonable sin. Jesus said in Mark 3 there is one sin that shall never be forgiven. John 3 says condemnation is rejecting the light. All of these verses say the same thing. Sinners are not condemned to hell because they were born sinners or did some bad things in their life. Sinners are condemned to hell for rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit which has been made clear to them.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
I believe the sin that sends sinners to hell is the sin of rejecting the Word of God clearly delivered to that sinner by the Holy Ghost so that the sinner who rejects that clear understanding will be without excuse if he rejects it.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This is part of David's confession of his sin with Uriah's wife and his murder of Uriah. It is a confession I make.
This corruption of nature did not originate with me, and it did not originate from man's original created state. That corruption originated in Adam's deed of eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil against the commandment of God that carried the penalty of death. Was the penalty of death in that commandment only what occurred to Adam's during his 930th year when he physically died? No.
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam was under the penalty of death the day he ate of the fruit, and it's guilt was sufficient to deny him the ability to live one more day. The penalty of death and judgement of all mankind could have taken place on the very day Adam's ate. Satan was counting on that, since he was judged that way. None of us would even exist had God chosen to carry out the penalty of death that way, and He was within His rights to do that, as he later showed under the Law when the penalties of those commandments were carried out the day it was confirmed by two witnesses.
The 930 years and the birth of every human being since was all of grace. The animal(s) that died that day clothed them to give us all physical life. But not spiritual life
Our mere existence is a gift of grace. And the origin of righteousness and justification in me now is not my righteous deeds or my righteous disposition it is of faith in Christ's righteousness, both in his deeds and in His nature.
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