Bible Discussion Thread

To King James - most feel Jesus was born January 7th, 6 BC and died on March 18, 29 AD.

Earl, Bless your heart. I know that you are really trying to interpret Scripture here, but God is not a part (or in) created things. That is a combination of the heresies that are called pantheism and panentheism which teaches that God is a part of everything (pantheism) and that everything is in God (panentheism) like you said that, "the sun, moon and stars, planets, trees, and MAN, etc... all made and consist of and in Christ". Your staement here reflects the beliefs of these two heresies. I just have to point this out because I really do care that sound doctrines are presented on this site and when a doctrine (like the one you stated), is put fort that is contrary to classic Christian teachings, I know it is my responsibility Love you Earl, but you have extrapolated once again far beyond what is Scripturally based teachings.

Sister GiGi, I'm asking a favour, would you take the book of Zechariah and go thru it and explain it like you did the book of Genesis.

I believe it will be a good study and we all will benefit because not all the prophecy of that book has been fulfilled, we haven't yet come to the feast of tabernacles.

God Bless You.

Hi Earl,

Thanks for the suggestion on Zechariah. I will read it but not comment on this time as my focus is on the book of Genesis and I have more chapters in Genesis to go yet.

Sister GiGI, classic Christians teachings and Scripture based teachings are two different things.

The prophets were sent to declare the WORD given them by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, man rejected those words and killed God's Prophets.

Jesus spoke these words:

Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, If they (his church) hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Christ's CHURCH today does not believe the words of Moses and the prophets.

They do whole heartily believe and teach the doctrines of man.

Earl,

That is your take on this subject.

I respect that.

Hi Earl. Just thought to drop in since you are having a discussion on the matter of twisting Scripture with Rick. Saw your Luke 16:31 reference. This is probably a good example of what Rick was referring to. You quoted, "And he said unto them, If they (his church) hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Christ's CHURCH today does not believe the words of Moses and the prophets."

You will have a hard time convincing anyone that Jesus was speaking about "His Church" in that account. You know the story well & that His hearers were the Pharisees primarily (v14). So the proper transliteration of verse 31 would be, 'If the five brothers of the rich man (v28) paid no regard to the Law & the Prophets, neither will (those brothers) be persuaded about the eternal torment of hell, even if one rose from the dead to warn them'. Pardon the extended paraphasing, but wanted to show you how a reader would understand that passage, in which the "Church" cannot be forced into its meaning. I realize that you probably once looked at Scriptures in this way, but for the many 'contradictions' in the accepted exposition, you have turned away & found 'truth' by looking at the Word in this new way. I have tried very hard to learn where you are coming from with your expositions & though I might be wrong, I have found from some other's religious interpretations, that they first come with particular beliefs & doctrines, then everything must match up to it, even if the normal sense of the verse is cast off.

Since you don't believe that the Word of God is correctly preached today, rather teaching the doctrines of men, then you could be justified in changing the reference to the 'brothers' to refer to the 'Church' to support your belief. This might work for you but how do you convince others to break accepted conventions of reading Scripture? One should rather understand what is given & then develop a belief, not the other way around.

Brother Chris, since Christ is the church, and Christ is creation's brother, I see no difference whether creation is addressed as church or brother.

You are my brother and you are also my church, because we as a whole are the church and brothers, we all become ONE as Christ and his Father are ONE.

Brother Earl. You stated the following: "they don't BELIEVE that ALL MEN are God's CHURCH". I don't believe it either. God's Church, or Christ's Church, comprise only those saved by the Blood of the Lamb. If they include the wicked & unrepentant as well as those entering into salvation & its blessings with unbelief in their hearts, then that brings shame on Christ's Work towards salvation & makes the Cross meaningless. If Christ "draws all men unto Him", then the only ones who are accepted of the Father are those of whom He spoke, "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." ( John 12:47,48). And God's Judgement is certain, final, & eternal - no second chances to those who die without Christ ( Hebrews 9:27; Hebrews 10:27-29).

"Judah was the only one that had five brothers, so this (reference in Luke 16:27,28) was addressed to the house of JUDAH, creation is the PROMISED SEED of the house of JUDAH." If the reference is to Judah's five brothers, then what is Judah doing sitting in hell in torments? Hopefully, the Jews didn't realize that Jesus was talking about Judah in hell & his five brothers about to enter there as well.

"since Christ is the church, and Christ is creation's brother". Not sure how you work out that Christ is creation's brother. Christ is indeed the Church ( Colossians 1:18,24), but He is also the Creator without familial relationship to His Creation ( Colossians 1:15-17). He does love His creation, but the only brothers He has, are those whom He has purchased with His Own Blood ( Acts 20:28).

Brother Chris, Did not Christ's blood cover all sins of all the world.

Is there not in the age, we are now in, a FEW being called to the priesthood of God's new kingdom.

The three feast in the OLD, was a shadow, they will be fulfilled in the NEW.

Christ died on passover: FULFILLED

The firstfruits were brought as an offering to the Lord at the Feast of Weeks: being FULFILLED in this age

Romans 11:16 If the FIRSTFRUIT (singular)(Christ as the wave sheaf) be holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root be holy, so also the branches.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But EVERY MAN in his order: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS (plural)(those translated to the likeness of Christ)(made as an offering of righteousness at the feast of weeks); afterwards they that ARE CHRIST'S at his coming (when Christ stands once again in his flesh to JUDGE THE WORLD (the feast of tabernacles, when all rest of the harvest was gathered.

And when Christ has put all things under his feet, GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL.

I'm not nearly as good at expressing explanations through words as you are, but I know you knowledge of scripture

will compensate for my lack of communication.

God bless you.

Page 2.

If all sinners, whether alive or dead, would one day be saved regardless, then:

a. there should have been no need for such a spectacle of Christ's Sacrifice if it were only to meet God's Requirement & appease Him for our sin. Why should the world know what God required, if salvation was a matter ONLY between God & His Sacrifice? Wouldn't the Lamb of God quietly put to death on the altar, sufficed?

b. the payment of Jesus' Life was too great & costly for merely resurrecting ALL sinners back to a life of happiness. We're not seeing another animal sacrifice - we're seeing God in the flesh laying down His Life for us. The greatness of the Sacrifice shows the greatness of the penalty.

c. the requirement to put our faith in Jesus & regeneration of our spirits should not be required at all, since all will be saved in the end. And, why should we even believe in Him now? This would be an unnecessary requirement. If all will believe in Him in that Day, why believe now?

d. the burden of the apostles to carry forth the Gospel, even to persecution & death, demonstrates the gravity of God's Judgement & to pull men out from Hell's torment. Why should they have suffered & why does the Gospel go out now into many parts of the World, if ALL men will eventually be saved?

If I believed what you do brother, I would stumble at these questions - answers to which must require belief in Christ in this life, having no other chance later on & with the compulsion to share this Good News that men might hear, believe & be saved from eternal Judgement.

Page 1.

Thank you for your comments brother Earl. We could spend all day, even weeks, discussing what you believe from the reading of the Scriptures & what I believe. So, I'm not even going to try dealing with all the points you raised, except for a couple.

1 Corinthians 6:2 speaks about the saints judging the world. The purpose, manner & application of that time of judgement is known only to the Lord; what we do know is that we will sit in judgement of the world with the Lord Jesus as Paul said, and as Jesus said to His disciples ( Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30).

You wrote: "Did not Christ's blood cover all sins of all the world?" True, His Blood availed for every sin of every person, for the shedding of His Son's Blood was God's requirement that our representation in judgement & punishment be borne by His Son. If we stood before God's Court, we would be found absolutely guilty, but His Love was so great that He sent us His Son, our Substitute, to pay our price in our stead.

Then we should ask, 'what is the punishment we would have suffered by this Divine Court?' Can it be only death & the grave, as you believe? As sinners (saved or unsaved), we all have to face death - that is our lot - no escape, lest the Lord intervenes by His Coming. Then was the price paid for our forgiveness & ransom simply to retrieve ALL from the grave? This would be a nice thought & hope that all sinners, no matter how evil they might be, will one day find eternal life with Jesus & reign with Him. But that very hope is unfounded for several reasons. (continued).

Brother Chris, You can never make the words of God have continuity as long as you believe God is going to send his creation to hell.

The Parable was to the house of Judau, if they didn't understand the gospel they would suffer death, if they understood the gospel they would never see death, but be translated to the likeness of Christ, the kingdom of God.

If the saints are going to judge the world in righteousness, what would be the purpose of that Judgement.

Psalms 94:10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall he not correct? he that teach man knowledge, shall he not know?

Brother Chris, man nor anything else can exist without LIFE and there is only one LIFE and that LIFE is Christ.

All creation has CHRIST IN YOU. They believe they have life of and in themselves, their deceived.

If Christ removed himself, man would cease to exist.

Creation's problem is they have no KNOWLEDGE, their void of TRUTH.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

When Christ has put all thing under his feet, God will be ALL IN ALL.

Ephesians 4:6 There is one God and Father of all, and above all, and through all, and IN YOU ALL.

ALL CREATION, but they have no KNOWLEDGE.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come upon mount ZION to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord, as the ware covers the seas.

Brother Chris You and I and all the elect of God with our brother and Lord, Jesus Christ, are going to CAUSE this to happen when ALL MANKIND is resurrected back to their flesh, and JUDGED by the TRUTH of God's word. And God WILL BE ALL IN ALL.

Brother Chris, you are correct I will have a hard time convincing people that he was speaking to the church, because they don't BELIEVE that ALL MEN are God's CHURCH.'

Judah was the only one that had five brothers, so this was addressed to the house of JUDAH, creation is the PROMISED SEED of the house of JUDAH.

Zechariah 12:7 And the Lord shall save the TENTS OF JUDAH FIRST......

They don't believe that God is capable of saving all men.

They don't believe Christ was SENT to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.

BELIEF is BELIEVING all God's words, even devils believe there's a God. Christ is THE WORD, ALL WORDS, if you reject that Christ is not going to save all men as he says he will, you are rejecting the WORD.

So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

The CHURCH in the wilderness BELIEVED in GOD, but the did not BELIEVE what he SAID, they lost out because of UNBELIEF.

Eve (WOMAN) suffered death, not because she didn't believe in God, but because she did not BELIEVE what God SAID.

If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN to me.

UNBELIEF is the ONLY sin not covered by the blood of CHRIST.

Sister Gigi, if Only Spirit (the Word) existed in the beginning, and nothing else, then what do you think all things were made from.

Hebrews 11:3 .....so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If the star that led the wise men was a physical star that moved and stood still, why didn't Herod follow the star himself to the Christ child.

I know you basing all truth on the traditions held by man, but are those traditions ALL TRUTH.

Pilot ask JESUS: What is truth.

All through the Bible it always has been the FEW, do you think all of Christianity (the church) is the FEW.

The CHURCH in the wilderness consisted of about six hundred thousand fighting men, YET ONLY TWO, entered the promised land, TWO BELIEVED GOD five hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety eight BELIEVED MAN.

Noah preach one hundred twenty years, YET ONLY EIGHT entered the ark. EIGHT BELIEVED GOD, millions BELIEVED MAN.

Many (in the CHURCH) are on the road to destruction, FEW find the way.

This is what the message to the seven churches in Revelation is about.

Revelation 3:9 Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, but are not, and do lie; Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Earl,

You are incorrect in stating that I base all truth on the traditions of man. I hold all teachings up to the Word of God no matter when it was written. I just happen to think that most of what is considered to be orthodox teachings are biblically sound. But it seems that you are not willing to accept any interpretation of Scripture other than your own.

Earl,

Amazing how you think that you are correct in your doctrines and not the doctrines of one man, yourself. and that the teachings of the church through the ages are the doctrines of men. This glaringly shows your unwillingness to learn from others not contemporary with you, nor consider that God may use others to correct your thinking. You have become your own pope, in my opinion.

I do not accept every thing that has been held by the church because I am aware of the problematic actions and teachings that have arisen across the centuries. I do weigh teachings against Scripture. But I do not ink that I am the final arbiter of what is true. I consider what someone believes and promotes no matter what century they lived, and research such ideas to find out more information. So, I do not simply accept doctrines just because it is a "tradition", as you seem to imply.

As to how God created our universe and the spiritual realm, He did not create out of His substance. He created new substances: physical matter, physical forces, physical light, the spiritual essences of angels and other spiritual beings.

Nothing God created was made from any part of Himself. Everything was made out something He created that did not exist before it was created by Him. Therefore, God is not a part of what He created, nor is all creation contained in His Being. His Being is apart and independent of all He created. Yet, He does interact with what He created in differing ways. He does live within believers, because He is Spirit and does not occupy physical space. But this indwelling is unique in nature, and it does not mean that He merges His Being with us, but rather abides with us in a union. He is not us and we are not Him, but we have been been given a great privilege of being as close to God as any created being can come, while still retaining our individuality and personhood.

You will probably disagree with me on this. We both exercise our freedom to present our ideas here.

Sister GiGi, here is a prophecy of Zechariah by the Spirit of Christ.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that everyone that is left of all nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of Host, and to keep the feast of the tabernacles.

Does our Christian churches believe and teach this prophecy of God's kingdom on earth.

No, they don't, have you ever sat in church and hear this preached or seen it preached on television or heard it preached on radio.

Jesus came not to destroy the law and prophets, but to fulfill the law and prophets.

Sister GiGi, if it were possible for Christ to cease existing (and it's not), what would happen to creation.

Would it continue on because it was made of something else Christ created or would it cease to EXIST.

Now if it was not made of and in Christ it would continue, but if it was made of and in Christ it would cease.

You believe the first: I believe the second.

Earl,

All of creation is upheld by the power of God, not because creation is made up of part of God's Spirit. We both know that Jesus exists forever, so the point about Jesus ceasing to exist is a moot point.

Earl Hurricanes don't twist or throw scripture around as good as you do, so that' a special ability.

Brother Rick, which scriptures did I twist.

Earl That statement doesn't need to be responded to when the outcome is already known moving on.

Brother Rick, If I twisted God's words and you know the verses I twisted and made God's words of no effect and deceived others by my words, surely as a brother you should show me my error. It want be the first time I've repented in my beliefs.

Earl Bowman Gods word is perfect because the author is perfect, therefore by sheer logic if there is

a problem with interpretation or understanding it is not the authors problem. Men or man MYSELF included

has this little problem believing that God didn't mean what he said and say what he mean't. Even when He to me

speaks to me I MUST line the info up with IT IS WRITTEN to determine truth from error. There are times on this site

when I misstated or didn't communicate correctly, but I endeavored to correct error. But your position is this

is what I see in scripture again because the spirit led me and with TOTAL ABSOLUTION but it fit like a square

peg in a round hole. You ask for example which has been done by more than one. There's a scripture that

applies here There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors. You appear to like a conversion but the question is

to what profit? There's a phrase in scripture a conscience [seared with a hot iron] conscience is habit pattern

so one that it seared is a habit pattern done so long that it is engraved in the mind and very hard to change

or see. I had a few in this category, took years to break by prayer and God Grace. Just sharing some heart.

Brother Rick, I agree with you a habit is hard to break. A belief is also hard to break, even if it's wrong. We are taught from birth a certain belief and we believe it, but at a latter point in life we start searching to verify what we believe is indeed TRUTH. We find what we were taught to believe doesn't align with God's word, do we continue in that belief or repent and turn from that belief.

IT IS WRITTEN is indeed our goal, but the scriptures have to AGREE, if they don't we have to reconcile why they don't.

It's either we want repent of our belief or the wrong word was used by the translator.

Most of all, and I know, you know, we have to be instructed by the Holy Spirit.

May God bless us as he delivers us from darkness.

Earl The written word is the knowledge of God written by men via the Spirit so if what the spirit is telling

anyone and it contradicts or doesn't fit with all the scripture related to the same subject matter that's not Gods

fault. Also I don't buy at all that an individual got [SPECIAL REVELATION] outside of the guidelines of the Bible.

That falls in line with J.W's Gnosticism which is basically spiritualism or your born with spirit all you have to do

is wake it up so there's no need for a saviour. We don't believe in sin because we don't believe there's a God so

therefore no one superior and man will figure it out himself by evolving intellectually. The adversary will do

absolutely anything to get man not to believe he sins because if you believe you sin then you have to come to the

solution Jesus Christ Gods Mr. CLEAN OF SIN inside and out. You seem to go off a tangent when commenting.

Brother Rick:

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them that are SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it SHALL NOT BE SHUT at all by day, for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they (the saved) shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Isaiah 66:18-24

Earl No explanation of there or it?

Brother Rick, let's begin with one stone as a foundation.

Do you believe the elect are going to govern and judge God's kingdom on earth?

Speculation. No scripture to support this.

Earl Who do you understand the elect to be and what do you consider the Kingdom Of God to be?

Brother Rick:

Isaiah 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterwards thou shall be called; The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Psalms 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Proverbs 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written: this honour has all his saints.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know the saints shall judge the world?

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works until the end, will I give power over nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter they shall broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Earl I ask you to give two specific answers and if what you gave are your answers so be it, still explains

nothing of any profit.

Brother Rick, I ask you a yes or no question, do you believe the elect are going to judge the world.

You didn't answer my question so I didn't answer yours.

Earl Scripture for believers is inspiring not a head one up challenge which ends in useless conversation,

so that being said have a nice day peace be unto you.

Brother Rick, does man have knowledge of God, is this not part of the gospel, man has no knowledge of God.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of KNOWLEDGE; because they have rejected KNOWLEDGE, I will also reject thee that thou shall be no PRIEST to me ......( Revelation 5:10)

God is THE WORD, man has no KNOWLEDGE of the words (truth) of God.

Revelation 2:26 He that overcometh and keepeth MY WORKS to the end, to him will I give POWER OVER THE NATIONS.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as a vessel they shall be broken to shivers; even as I

received of my Father ( Psalms 2:8-10).

I've gone to church all my life and never once heard that God's elect are going to govern the nations.

Why is this SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE not taught, because man's doctrine of hell is taught instead, and believed.

NO KNOWLEDGE.

Earl Forgive me I flunked spelling bee's

Earl Again I will graciously end this because your scripture references out of context have got more twist and turns than the Autobahn. Your implying that man has no truth but Gods Word believed and carried out is truth in function.

Also if what your saying is true than what your commenting on can't be truth because man has no truth, do you see how this sounds? So God Bless moving on to the Pinnacle of Truth as the Mater said THY WORD IS TRUTH!