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Amen! The person who dies in Christ, their spirit will depart their physical body at the point of death and go to be with the Lord immediately. When Christ returns for his church, we (our spirit) will come back with Him, our physical body will be resurrected from the grave and rise to meet the Lord in the air, and it will be a glorified incorruptible body that our spirit will rejoin. And we will return with Christ to partake of the wedding feast.
Adam was a flesh-and-blood human being, so like us, his body was subject to wearing out, and one day his heart would stop, and the breath of life (spirit) would return back to God. Adam like us was not created immortal, he needed to eat of the Tree of Life to live forever, that is why it was hidden.
After Adam sinned it was a spiritual death not a physical death, the dwelling place for God in man, Satan's deception, physical life goes on after sin. Now we are under the judgment of condemnation and only by the grace of God and the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ we are free from this judgment.
Jesus came and lived in the flesh and died and was resurrected so we could be redeemed from this state of death, giving us the opportunity of eternal life. Did Jesus return to heaven when He died? Jesus did not ascend to His Father until after He resurrected ( John 20:17).
The belief in our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy, developed especially by two of the chief Greek philosophers, Plato and Socrates. The meaning of death, being a separation of the soul from the body also came from ancient Greek philosophy. This immortal soul and the meaning of death has been taught for so long it is not questioned today.
It is Platonism, Augustine of Hippo made a saint, held this philosophy. He was a theologian, philosopher with a strong influence on doctrines in the church, in the fourth and early fifth century.
We are buried mortal, dead, in corruption and we are raised immortally incorruptible ( 1 Corinthians 15:42-44)
All consciousness ends when we die. ( Psalm 6:5) ( Job 14:12-14) ( Job 17:13-16) ( Psalm 89:48) ( Psalm 115:17) ( Ecclesiastes 9:5-10)
We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. ( 1 Corinthians 15:51) ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14). ( 1 Corinthians 15:52-54)
RLW
I see where you are going with this and I do thank you for the correction. It may have been more appropriate for me to say our soul departs and goes to be with the Lord. I oftentimes use the word soul and the word spirit interchangeably, even though I understand that there is a difference. My soul has been saved, but it's my spirit that has been made alive. So for me, whether I say my soul departs to be with the Lord (Which I could have said) or my spirit goes to be with Him, I see no harm done. Either way, a believer goes to be with the Lord. I could have just left it at that and not used either the word spirit or soul. The bottom line for me is that I get to go be with the Lord when I die. People often ask the question "What is the difference between the soul and the spirit?" It's a great question and a study in and of itself.
When we die or or fall asleep body goes to dust spirit goes back to God who gave it and we take our last breath soul life is done. What I read spirit is spirit eternal, soul is soul breath life, body is formed dust of the ground that's what is written. With all due respect I don't look to correct more to understand, enhance and build upon. In His Service
I appreciate what you are sharing. It's not very deep but yet it gives me something to dwell on for a bit. Like I said earlier, I often use the words soul and spirit interchangeably, not even thinking about it. Hopefully, I don't cause anyone confusion as it's not my intent. I have learned and understood that we were body, soul, and spirit, even before receiving Christ, and that upon receiving Christ, His Spirit (Holy Spirit) comes in and seals our spirit. If that's not the case, I would need to study it out in order to change my mind. In other word, I'm still "on the fence" with this one, not in disagreement with what you're saying! My mind can be changed. And I enjoy the humor, even if it is B.S. I myself like to believe I have a good sense of humor but we live in a day and age now where we have to fear offending someone with our humor. Must we as believers always have to be so serious?
Ezekiel 18:4 ..... The soul that sinneth it shall die.
Our body of flesh (soul) is the only thing that can die.
Spirit can not die. There is ONLY one SPIRIT (TRUTH) (THE WAY) (LIFE).
The wages of sin (unbelief, no knowledge of TRUTH, of LIFE, no light) (our sins of the flesh are COVERED in blood) is DEATH (separation from light, held in chains of darkness, confined to the bottomless pit, the grave, place of no perception). Until the Resurrection of Judgement.
According to Jesus, the Body and Soul are NOT the same.
Jesus speaks directly about this below.
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
God Bless
I'm not sure what you think the soul is; if it's not our body of dust, with life by the breath of God.
Leviticus 7:27 Whatsoever SOUL it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that SOUL shall be cut off from his people.
Luke 12:19 And I will say to my SOUL, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat drink, and be merry.
Job 16:4 I also could speak as you do, if your SOUL were in my SOUL'S stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake my head at you.
Leviticus 23:30 And whatsoever SOUL it be that doeth any work in that same day, that same SOUL will I destroy from among his people.
Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shall bestow that money for whatsoever thy SOUL lusted after, for oxen, or for sheep, of for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy SOUL desireth: and thou shall eat before the LORD thy God, and thou shall rejoice, thee and thine household.
I'll disregard your first question as you've asked me to do. Your question "how do I interpret those "asleep" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17?"
That phrase "asleep" is referring to the physical body. It gives the appearance of being asleep but it is dead. There's no such thing as "soul sleep" as some teach. The word death literally means separation. When we die physically, there is a separation that takes place. The soul separates from the body and either goes to be with the Lord (If we are saved), or goes to a place called Hades and waits for the resurrection that will take place after the thousand-year reign of Christ.
I understand every single person will stand before Christ and give an account. I can't disagree with that. But before I can answer you, I need to know your understanding of judgment. What will the believer be judged for?
It looks like you're saying that everyone will be judged at the same time, both believers and non-believers alike. Is that what you are saying? That is interesting because you use Revelation 20:11-15 as one of the verses that suggest to you that "everyone as a big group will be judged at the same time." Revelation 20:11-15 is speaking about the Great White Throne Judgement. No believer will stand before that judgement. That judgment is for all those who rejected Christ. They will all be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Not one single person who stands before the judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15 will enter into heaven. The believer will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ, not the Great White Throne Judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:10 is referring to the Bema Seat of Christ, not the Great White Throne Judgment. (Two separate judgments!
There's a lot packed into Matt 25. If you would like to go over it, I would be happy to do so.
The person who has received Christ is not going to be judged to determine heaven or hell. Jesus Christ already paid for that. The believer will be judged to determine their reward
I agree with you, Man can not clean himself with "HIS" righteousness. Our righteous works cannot commend us to God, And it can't restore us back to God when we stumble. The topic is basically talking about habitual sin. Here's a picture of a person so called removing sin from his life apart from being sealed with the spirit.
Matthew 12:43-45. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, "HE FINDETH IT EMPTY, SWEPT, AND GARNISHED." ( NO SPIRIT.)
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
It amazes me ho we look at habitual sin in a professed so called Christian, and some call say he lost his salvation. But they overlook the dislike and hate between what suppose to be brothern!
There's 3 topics that generate this division and thats
1) The trinity.
2) The rapture.
3) Eternal security for the believer.
and if I might add one more.
Replacement theology. "The Church is the new Israel.
This lack of love for the brothern should be more alarming than any of these topics.
God bless you for standing true with meekness.
Thanks. The only righteousness God sees in us is His Son, Jesus Christ. We have no righteousness of our own. I think you and I both agree that a person who is born of God's Spirit can no longer live a lifestyle of habitual sin because the Spirit of Christ in them keeps that from happening. The person who claims to be a Christian, and yet goes out and lives a life of habitual sin without the Lord dealing with them, that person probably does not belong to Christ.
1 John 3:6 says that whoever abides in Him, that is, in the Lord, does not sin. The word abides is a Present Participle, meaning continuously abiding. Whoever has Him abiding, is, Present Tense, not sinning, continuously as a habit of life. It's not talking about committing an act of sin. It's talking about committing sin continuously, a lifestyle of not surrendering to Christ.
Whoever is continuously remaining in Him, does not practice sin, ever! That means we can never go back and live the old lifestyle we lived before we received Christ. It's impossible. In contrast: Whoever is continuously sinning has not seen Him, neither have they known Him. That's a pretty bold statement to make!
As far as division, did you know that the bible teaches that division is necessary? Preaching is for the unsaved, and teaching is for the saved. But there are two divisions that take place. When somebody receives Christ, they are now separated from the unbelievers. There's a division that has taken place. But Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:19 that there must be heresies in the church. Why? It's so that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
God's word brings division. Look at Jesus. He performs a miracle and twenty-thousand people follow Him. So He turns around and gives one sermon, and everybody leaves but 12 people.
I think that if Jesus was the pastor of a local church and He did that, He would lose His job! "We didn't hire you to teach the truth and have people leave!"
Here is a parallel I believe you and Brother Chris was going over a little while back,
1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US.
It has been a busy week. Sorry for my late response.
1 John 2:1-2. is straight forward and a blessing to the whole world if the receive it.
Here is where I believe Is one of the most ignored and misunderstood sections in the scripture, considering its importance. ( NOTICE WHAT I HAVE HIGHLIGHTED )
1 John 2:3. And HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE ARE IN HIM.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
HE THAT SAITH HE IS IN THE LIGHT, AND HATETH HIS BROTHER, IS IN DARKNESS EVEN UNTIL NOW.
( He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.)
BUT HE THAT HATETH HIS BROTHER IS IN DARKNESS, AND WALKETH IN DARKNESS, AND KNOWETH NOT WHITHER HE GOETH, BECAUSE THAT DARKNESS HATH BLINDED HIS EYES.
( This is divinely done by the Holyspirit, it's not left up to you! This is part of the gathering together, bound together by one Spirit.) "HEREBY we know" WE CAN KNOW!! The Spirit don't lie. So we should examine ourselves to see if the Holyspirit worketh in us. Confirmed ( NOT BY YOUR DOCTRINE ). But by Love for the BRETHREN.
Here's more-
John 13:34-35. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Peter understood what level of Love this is in John 21:15-17.
God bless.
:)
The first part of your post I understand and agree, but the sentence that has "habitual sin, so called Christian, overlook the dislike and hate between what supposed to be brethren". Then "3 topics that generate this division".
Do you suggest these three topics creates the so-called Christians or non-Christian? I'm sorry if I don't follow, do you mean, who does not agree with you on these three points or four are so-called Christians or non-Christian and create division?
Can you honestly say you have studied these points; or have you over the years you have accepted them as the truth because that was what you have been taught? Do you test the spirits? Jesus spoke of this in Revelation about the Nicolaitans, that He hated ( Revelation 2:15).
Paul warned ( Colossians 2:8) ( 1 Timothy 4:7). This was the beginning of the dominating Roman Church, made up of Greek philosophers, mythology, and Platonic teaching. Have we gone so far from the simplicity of Christ? Have we put man made doctrines above what scripture says for salvation?
Last question; this is an honest question, do we have to believe in the trinity doctrine as written that is said to be a mystery but now is the basis of Christianity to be saved, has this doctrine replaced the chief corner stone which is Jesus Christ?
If we are dead set on what scripture means, our ears will be closed to the Holy Spirit. You can reply or not, but that is ok, I had to ask, this out of love, if I disagree does not mean I hate.
RLW
Thanks for the reply. The Emphasis wasn't on the topics, The so called Christians was directed at those who "HATE" the Brothern because they don't share their views, This group should be concerned about this Hatred in their hearts rather than other peoples views, And these are the main 3 topics that they quarrel over.
This is also what me and Rick was discussing.
There's Many things in the Bible that is not easily explained, And some would tare you apart about something they don't understand theirself. So if a person hate his brother without a cause perhaps it's the truth he hates, and he should be concerned about that. We should examine ourselves and judge our own hearts, We all know that everyone says they're Christian is not a Christian. And I firmly believe some are demon possessed. I've seen in more than one occasion people come on the site and harshly attack others viewpoint and this person come out of the wood work and cheer them on. That's not from the Holyspirit I believe it's demonic. It doesn't matter whether the viewpoint is right or wrong but what's behind the attack is something to be concerned with. Pride and the belief that you already have the truth is the only barrier from the truth. There is things written in Jude needs to be considered here. And to answer your question I hold and heavily promote all three of those views, but don't seek to destroy those who don't. Let's give the word and let the Holyspirit teach, So we agree on what is vital even though there's atleast one topic we may not.
God bless and good night for now Ronald.
Thanks, got it, sorry you had to reply, have a great day.
God bless,
RLW
That day Jesus come too set everything in right place, all christian ppl will have a werry busy day. Becouse all the ppl who not let Jesus in too they're life. Will do anything to come too Him that moment. In the werry last moment. Ill think it will be a lot of pray that day. Not evan that for sure. We will stand in front of Him who have done all things in all Heaven's, on earth, and under earth. And am so naive that ill think i will manage too stand on my too feet! But the Holy Scripture said that every one will fall on they're knees. God bless you all here in the web site, who have a service soo big that we cant take it inwards us. Jesus Is.
So, I'll just ask about one comment. You distinguished between giving an 'account' and being 'judged' and seemed to suggest that the Christian will give an account but not be judged. Is that your belief?
2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
To me, this verse says "all" which means all. Everyone. 'All' includes Christians. And it does indeed use the word judgment. And it does say both good or bad. So, you asked "What will the believer be judged for?" and the answer is in this verse: for what 'he hath done, whether it be good or bad.'
I think the danger in believing Christians have a guaranteed entry pass into heaven is some Christians will assume they are already "saved" and assume they don't need to follow Jesus anymore and can enjoy a life of sin. I've heard people deny this ever happens, but I know people now and you can find thousands of people fitting this category online, like on the ex-Christian reddit sub. It's my view that salvation doesn't occur until we are all judged. Life isn't over until it's over. Some denounce the faith late in life and some come to faith late in life.
The Bible supports having an assurance of salvation, and hope of eternal life for genuine Christ followers, but it doesn't say you have a guaranteed entry pass into heaven regardless of your actions. This is why Paul said to run the race well as if to get the prize. Why else would he say that if the race was already won and over. Why else would we need to stay on guard with armor of God on, and why else would we have to strive to live a Godly life if we're all saved regardless? I think satan is behind the deception and that the reality is just as Jesus said- that most people will go to hell, even those who were 100% confident they were getting in. Mat 7:21. God bless...
We christian ppl are guilty to cleanse ourselves, to stand clean before Him. Is it not so? God Bless in Jesus Christ name.
(Part 3)
You say, "Some denounce the faith late in life and some come to faith late in life," but I say those who denounce the faith were never of the faith to begin with. That's given to us in 1 John 2:19. A person who belongs to the Lord is a person who endures to the end. It is Christ in us that brings us to the end. He is the author and finisher of the faith. He designs it, and He brings it to its completion.
You say "The Bible supports having an assurance of salvation, and hope of eternal life for genuine Christ followers, but it doesn't say you have a guaranteed entry pass into heaven regardless of your actions." I agree.
I'm glad you bring up "hope" of eternal life. Jesus Christ is our hope. The word hope in the Greek text literally means expectancy. It doesn't mean I hope to have eternal life with Christ in heaven. I expect to have it.
Yes, Paul says to run the race. Every believer is to run the race that's set before them. In the end, we will be rewarded. As for the armor of God, Christ is my armor. When I received Christ, I put on Christ. He is the armor and that armor never comes off. Might I dare say that I do not strive to live a Godly life? That would take human effort which the Lord will not bless. I live a Godly life because it is Christ in me that persuades me to live a Godly life. It has nothing to do with me! It is all of Him. If it is me striving to live a Godly life, then I should have something to boast of. I have nothing to boast of but Christ who lives in me.
I have confidence that I will spend eternity with Christ. And I disagree that that is Satan's deception. My confidence is in Christ Jesus. He is my hope, my expectancy. When I stand before God someday, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. And I know that I will not enter in based on my human performance. I enter in, not because God sees any good in me. I enter in because He will see His Son in me. That's how I enter in!
(Part 2)
I think for a true believer, one who has been born of God's Spirit, they do have the guarantee of eternal life with Christ. There is no danger as you say it in believing that. But yes, I agree, there is danger in believing that salvation gives you the right to enjoy a life of sin and not follow Jesus. Indeed, that is dangerous!
I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I have Christ in me. I have salvation (Present Tense). Christ said He will never leave me. As long as I have Christ in me, I will always have salvation, and He said He will never leave me. So my salvation is secure. I have eternal life because the eternal one lives in me.
Just because I believe in eternal security, that does not mean I assume I don't need to follow Jesus or that I can enjoy a life of sin. That is, as you say, a dangerous thing to believe. I have yet to meet a believer that has told me that they can enjoy a life of sin because they are already saved and it doesn't matter. Not once have I met that person. If you found "thousands" of them online, that's not a place I care to look. Also, there's no such thing as an "ex-Christian."
You tell me that it is your view that salvation doesn't occur until we are all judged? With that view, a person can never know they have salvation until they stand before God. If we're not saved now, how can we call Jesus Christ our Savior? For me, salvation occurred the moment I received Christ.
Sorry, but I am going to need one more post. I could have been short in my answer but I think you deserve an honest response from me. I know you have a sincere love for the Lord, and I admire that. I will finish up in one more post, I promise.
First, let me address your question about my comment. My answer is that the Christian will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ. This is not a judgment to determine salvation. This judgment is to determine our reward. But there will be another judgment for the non-believer, which is the Great White Throne Judgement. No believer will be at that judgment. If you can't agree with that, I don't know what else to tell you. You used the verses in Revelation chapter 20 as showing that all will be judged at the same time. You can believe that if you wish, but that is simply not true. That judgment is strictly for the non-believer.
Now, 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
If you take that verse alone, the word "all" could mean everyone, I agree. However, if you take the chapter in context beginning with verse 1, it's easy to see who Paul is addressing in verse 10. He's addressing believers. So when he says in verse 10, "we must all appear," I look at who Paul is speaking to when he says we. He's talking to believers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ. That's the Bema Seat, not the Great White Throne Judgment. And yes, I see the word judgment, and I see the words good and bad. The believer will stand before the Bema Seat and be judged, and that which is of Christ, he/she will be rewarded for, and that which is not of Christ is going to burn, but the believer will be saved. But there will be a separate judgment for the non-believers.
I'll respond to the last part in a separate post.
But some do stop being Christians. You said you don't want to view the forum ex-Christian. There are thousands of people there who have denounced the faith- it shouldn't be such a surprise that this has happened, as there's been many long-time pastors in the past who very publically have done this. One was a worship leader in an Australian mega church, for an example. Then claiming that after decades of Christian service that they were never Christian is another self-contradictory belief. That means people who accepted Christ, follow Christ, pray, serve, give, produce fruit, worship God, and eveything else aren't Christians? If so, then how do you know 100% you're a Christian? What is the exact criteria you have for a Christian or can you never be for sure? Do you not have freewill?
My belief is simple, if you do what the Bible says you're a Christian immediately. You start the journey, but it doesn't mean you're without freewill to sin and turn away and even blaspheme. If it was impossible to commit blasphemy then why did Jesus warn everyone about it?
Sin is tempting and can be temporarily very enjoyable. We're supposed to resist it with every ounce of our being. I think the idea of not using any human effort at all to avoid sin is misguided. To assume that there's no consequence to salvation if a Christian turns away from Jesus I don't believe is Biblical. Out of space- God bless...
Regarding what you call a "Bema seat". Many Christians don't call it that. Since the word isn't in the Bible, I prefer using the terminology the Bible already uses: Judgment. And I believe there's only 1 Judgment for all just like the verse says. I think the interpretation of the 2 different judgments is based on a misunderstanding of scripture and believe it is simple describing the same event in different ways. Revelation is a symbolic book with much of it based on an amazing vision and described in limited human terms. The evidence of the judgment being for all, is it says the book of life was there and open. If the whole judgment was to send everyone to hell, then why would the book of life be there and specifically mentioned and why would there even be a judgment if its already known that everyone there is going to hell anyway, unless you believe levels of punishment in hell. That would sure be a depressing line to be in.
Matthew 7:21 - people who said they knew the Lord and expected to get into heaven will not get into heaven. To me this means some Christians will not make it. They will believe they are Christ-followers, but Christ does not know them.
Matthew 10:28 - Jesus says to his 12 disciples, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Why would Christians (literal Christ followers) be told by Jesus to fear God and judgment if it wasn't true? Do you think Jesus meant to say 'And you are already saved no matter what, so just do whatever, because to do anything is 'human effort' and is bad, and to do nothing is good.' No, Jesus didn't say that. Huge difference.
The Bible says faith without works is dead. And Jesus said if you love me then obey His commandments.
You just sent me two separate posts with a whole lot of question marks in there. Are you wanting me to respond or are you looking for me to send more that you can disagree with? I'm trying to be careful in my discussions with you because if you remember, about two years ago, we disagreed on something, and you were not open to discuss, I can't recall what it was, but someone reported me (I assume you), and I was asked to stay off this site for 72 hours. I am trying to avoid that because I enjoy the fellowship with others here, including you, even if we disagree on some things.
We all have our views and understanding of what God's word says. So, who's view is right, and who's is wrong? Are you the one to decide that?
My perspective is that it is not what I say that's truth, and it's not what you say that's truth. God's word alone is truth. Hopefully that's something we can both agree on.
I like to find common ground with other believers. I know we can't always agree on everything but there are things we can agree on, and there are thing I know for fact that you and I agree on. Do you even know what they are?
Adam, I'll be honest with you, and please do not take offense at what I'm about to say because I mean no ill will towards you. I know you love the Lord and so do I.
But what I have noticed over the past few years of reading your posts, and I do read them, but it seems that every time you come on here, it is to disagree with others, rebuke them, or insinuate that their belief or view comes from Satan.
Have you ever stopped to think before coming on here and telling others they are wrong that maybe your view or understanding could be off a little?
I really would love to respond to the questions you just sent my way but I think your mind is already made up that you're going to disagree no matter what my response might be so we'll leave it at that.