Saint Michael wrote; "If according to the Old Testament God the Father created evil, then does it not follow that a part of God's nature contains evilness?"
The appearance of evil ocurred in consequence of the disobedience of the Cherub and of the all angels that follow him.
Ezekiel 28:v.14 to 19
14 Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the Holy Mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast PERFECT in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till INIQUITY was found in thee.
16 ... and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as PROFANE out of the Mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast CORRUPTED thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes(reduced the Cherub to Devil) ,upon the EARTH in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the PEOPLE shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a TERROR,and never shalt thou be any more.
Jude 1:v.6-7
6 And the ANGELS which kept not their first estate(celestial estate), but left their own habitation, GOD hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of this great Day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner (of the angels), giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Gen.6:2-the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;and they took them wives of all which they chose.I will destroy man whom I have created
Michael the Archangel of Almighty God THREW Satan to the earth - In Reply - 3 years ago
This needs to be exposed today. I got this info off a Book of Shadows website; which is the Satanic Bible.
My comment is this: Angel worship is FORBIDDEN in Christianity. In pagan society, Saint Michael is a high ranking demonic prince. Go google a list of all demon names. It will creep you out.
I was saved out of the Occult. I was conscious a few seconds when the Holy Spirit delivered me from all that had a home inside of me. I try not to think of the screams, because they were mine.
[copied & pasted as is on the website]
"St. Michael Protection Spell for Wiccan, Pagan, Conjure & Hoodoo Ritual"
"When ready, light the candle and ask St. Michael to guide and protect you. You may also ask him to specifically protect you from your situation, person, etc.
Of course, you can always recite the Prayer to St. Michael written by Pope XIII in 1886 or simply create a prayer of your own."
Michael. If you're thinking of Isaiah 45:7, please don't assume that there is any evil within the Godhead to produce evil. We need to understand that verse properly. Just as the LORD "formed the light", so too can He "create darkness". That is, when God chooses to remove the light, darkness remains - darkness is the default. God had to introduce light to dispel darkness ( Genesis 1:1-5); Jesus had to become Light unto men to reveal & dispel their inner darkness ( John 12:46).
Likewise, God said, "I make peace and create evil". Evil came from the father of evil & sin, who is the devil. And the devil has controlled the world with his wickedness ( Ephesians 2:1-3). But in that overwhelming wickedness, the merciful God has still brought peace to the hearts & lives of many: to His people, Israel, if they obeyed: Psalm 119:165; Proverbs 16:7 and to all others who come to Him through the Cross of His Son ( John 14:27; Ephesians 2:13-18).
But what happens when God chooses to remove His Peace? And what happens when God chooses to remove His Light? If Peace goes, evil will immediately take over - if Light is removed, darkness instantly prevails. So, God is not the author of evil, but that evil is the result when His Peace is removed; hence, as it is written, "I create evil", or, 'I have allowed evil to take hold (or, make evil happen), because I have removed My Peace'.
Maybe if Satan was bound soon after him troubling mankind with evil, there would be no need for such verses that would require God to act against evil, but in the Wisdom of God & to make His Power, Love & Salvation known to all, we who have been drawn to & choose His Light & Peace, can always know His Power constantly working in us. But if that Light & Peace fades away in us, we know it's because we have given Satan a foothold in us, bringing us into darkness & sin.
Thank you Michael for that response. As you may anticipate, I refute practically everything you've stated about the Almighty God. I believe the fundamental flaw in your argument is that "God is to be held responsible for the origin of evilnessthat evil is in Jehovah's nature & expressed by His actions". I bring up three areas to consider:
a. if there is any evil within God, even a speck of it, then whatever goodness is there becomes tainted with evil. And this effectively makes the whole evil. So even the goodness of God is no longer pure but impure. I think you're saying that God is wholly evil without any goodness in Him. If that's the case, then what Scriptures are you reading that show this & what Scriptures are you avoiding that show His Goodness to man. God can't be good & evil simultaneously. You would need to cite a couple of examples.
b. the origin of evil does not come from God but from Satan. Ezekiel 28:12-15 speaks of the King of Tyrus, but clearly the content of those verses point to Satan, the spirit indwelling the king. Satan was "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." God didn't create evil in that cherub, evil was found in him. Evil can enter when we are given the power of choice: Satan fell, Adam & Eve fell, & all who are born with such flesh.
c. what you've read in the Bible that presents God with an evil component in Himself is likely man's own belief of what is wrong or unfair & not from Truth. As created beings we might demand rightness from the Creator, when in fact the Creator has the right to demand of us & to do with us as He pleases: Romans 9:19-23. Are you then unmindful of this Truth of the Sovereignty & Wisdom of God? You've mentioned Eden & the temptations given to Jesus; why would you think that God instigated such things for evil? Yes, He could have prevented them but that certainly does not indicate any wrongdoing. We can never be in the place of God & He doesn't reveal all.
You wrote: "If according to the Old Testament God the Father created evil, then does it not follow that a part of God's nature contains evilness?"
"If according to the Old Testament God the Father created evil"...
That's false. God the Father hasn't created evil. Why would you assume that? There's nothing in the Old Testament as you claim that says such a thing. Go ahead and share every and all verses you assumed said that so we can get to the bottom of why you draw such a conclusion. I've read the Old Testament and have never seen such a thing, so we'll be interested in see your evidence for your claim.
God is good and created people with freewill. Just because people choose to disobey God doesn't automatically mean God is responsible for their behavior. Disobeying and defying God is evil. For example, God created angels, but just because one of the angels, choose evil (satan) doesn't mean God choose that. It's the opposite.
Now, let's analyze the other part of your assumption:
>"then does it not follow that a part of God's nature contains evilness?"
No, it does not follow. God didn't create evil. Defying God is evil. God doesn't want you to deft and disobey Him. He loved you enough to give you freewill to choose to obey Him or not. Yes, you can choose evil and choose to commit horrible acts, but you can't blame it on God. It's 100% your own fault for sinning. Similarly if you have kids and they're grown up as fully responsible adults and commit a crime, is it your fault? Should you have shown love by forcing them into compliance like slaves so they wouldn't do that? Some people assume God should do that to squash freewill and get rid of evil, but they usually don't want the same to restrict themselves, however.
So, I believe your assumption is false and there is nothing in the Bible that says any such thing. Have you completely read the Bible and are you a Christian?
I always thought it was God's fault for putting us through the storm with satan at the wheel. God could have skipped all the human pain and suffering and made us whole to begin with, but no, he allowed satan to reign over us, supreme. What is the point of prolonging the agony? Does the butterfly despise the caterpillar?
Dan wrote:"I always thought it was God's fault for putting us through the satan at the wheel.
Dan, have you forgotten what happened at Eden? Gen.3:8-24
8 They heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden ...and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 ...God called Adam...Where art thou?
10 ... in the garden and I was afraid...I was naked and I hid myself.
11 God said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 Adam said,The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,she gave me of the tree and I did eat.
13 GOD said unto the woman,What is this that thou hast done? The woman said,The Devil beguiled me and I did eat.
14 Lord God said unto the Devil,Because thou hast done this, thou art CURSED above all cattle,and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST(man was made from the dust)shalt thou eat ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy SEED and her SEED; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; ...
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST YOU ARE, and unto DUST shalt thou return.
22 GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 ... GOD sent man forth from the garden of Eden,...
24 So GOD drove out the man and placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims and a flaming Sword which tu
"It is God's fault for all the human pain and suffering. He is punishing us."
Can you absolutely know this is true?
No.
How do I act when you believe this thought?
I am angry. I tense up. I strike out at God. I hate God. I hate the suffering. I become a God-hater. I sin, more and more! And I don't care! I create more suffering in the world!
How would it be if I were delivered of this thought, if I suddenly couldn't think this thought, if I dropped it from my mind?
I would experience all the pain and suffering of humans, and I would be broken up. My heart would break. I would cry. I would pray to God to have mercy on us. I would have nowhere to go but to God. My heart would break so many times it would be permanently open. I might help those in suffering, I would know compassion.
Turn that original belief around 180 degrees: God is responsible..... "God is not responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world. God is not punishing us. Find 3 reasons why this might be true or truer.
1. my anger and hatred of God is causing suffering
I have no energy left to be kind or to lift up others.
2. It's possible that God is good; If I dare turn toward him to know him... Maybe I could
possibly find out about his Cross.... it might be the opposite of punishment....
3. I am punishing me. Over and over. I don't know how to get out of this cycle.
I am not doing this exercise for you. I am illustrating how I deal with painful beliefs in myself. Our painful beliefs bring so much suffering, but Christ brings grace and truth, and forgiveness in the suffering.
and re. the butterfly despising the caterpillar: the butterfly is a new creature altogether. As it begins to fly
in its new nature, it doesn't even look back at the caterpillar.... It may feel the effects of the caterpillar for awhile,
but sensations cannot stop its flight.
God Bless You, Who has not thought these questions?
Not so fast there, lets talk about the stories essence. God needed a solid narrative to unleash an all-inclusive decay upon humanity. Adam and Eve were no match for Satan, and God knew this. A prize fighter vs 2 babies. So their sin for disobedience is passed down through every generation, breeding mayhem and chaos, and nothing changes until God's representative returns to stops the madness. Certainly one has to reflect on the pragmatic basis that God, full well knowing we humans can't make it alone, would send us out in a maze, alone, forever and always trying to get back home.
To put my point in perspective, I wouldn't want to be apart of the animal kingdom either. Almost every hour is spent looking for a kill, and looking to not be eaten. God loves them too. I wonder what the animals complain about, dream about.
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The appearance of evil ocurred in consequence of the disobedience of the Cherub and of the all angels that follow him.
Ezekiel 28:v.14 to 19
14 Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the Holy Mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast PERFECT in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till INIQUITY was found in thee.
16 ... and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as PROFANE out of the Mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast CORRUPTED thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes(reduced the Cherub to Devil) ,upon the EARTH in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the PEOPLE shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a TERROR,and never shalt thou be any more.
Jude 1:v.6-7
6 And the ANGELS which kept not their first estate(celestial estate), but left their own habitation, GOD hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of this great Day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner (of the angels), giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example,suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Gen.6:2-the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;and they took them wives of all which they chose.I will destroy man whom I have created
My comment is this: Angel worship is FORBIDDEN in Christianity. In pagan society, Saint Michael is a high ranking demonic prince. Go google a list of all demon names. It will creep you out.
I was saved out of the Occult. I was conscious a few seconds when the Holy Spirit delivered me from all that had a home inside of me. I try not to think of the screams, because they were mine.
[copied & pasted as is on the website]
"St. Michael Protection Spell for Wiccan, Pagan, Conjure & Hoodoo Ritual"
"When ready, light the candle and ask St. Michael to guide and protect you. You may also ask him to specifically protect you from your situation, person, etc.
Of course, you can always recite the Prayer to St. Michael written by Pope XIII in 1886 or simply create a prayer of your own."
Mishael: that prayer is evil.
Likewise, God said, "I make peace and create evil". Evil came from the father of evil & sin, who is the devil. And the devil has controlled the world with his wickedness ( Ephesians 2:1-3). But in that overwhelming wickedness, the merciful God has still brought peace to the hearts & lives of many: to His people, Israel, if they obeyed: Psalm 119:165; Proverbs 16:7 and to all others who come to Him through the Cross of His Son ( John 14:27; Ephesians 2:13-18).
But what happens when God chooses to remove His Peace? And what happens when God chooses to remove His Light? If Peace goes, evil will immediately take over - if Light is removed, darkness instantly prevails. So, God is not the author of evil, but that evil is the result when His Peace is removed; hence, as it is written, "I create evil", or, 'I have allowed evil to take hold (or, make evil happen), because I have removed My Peace'.
Maybe if Satan was bound soon after him troubling mankind with evil, there would be no need for such verses that would require God to act against evil, but in the Wisdom of God & to make His Power, Love & Salvation known to all, we who have been drawn to & choose His Light & Peace, can always know His Power constantly working in us. But if that Light & Peace fades away in us, we know it's because we have given Satan a foothold in us, bringing us into darkness & sin.
a. if there is any evil within God, even a speck of it, then whatever goodness is there becomes tainted with evil. And this effectively makes the whole evil. So even the goodness of God is no longer pure but impure. I think you're saying that God is wholly evil without any goodness in Him. If that's the case, then what Scriptures are you reading that show this & what Scriptures are you avoiding that show His Goodness to man. God can't be good & evil simultaneously. You would need to cite a couple of examples.
b. the origin of evil does not come from God but from Satan. Ezekiel 28:12-15 speaks of the King of Tyrus, but clearly the content of those verses point to Satan, the spirit indwelling the king. Satan was "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." God didn't create evil in that cherub, evil was found in him. Evil can enter when we are given the power of choice: Satan fell, Adam & Eve fell, & all who are born with such flesh.
c. what you've read in the Bible that presents God with an evil component in Himself is likely man's own belief of what is wrong or unfair & not from Truth. As created beings we might demand rightness from the Creator, when in fact the Creator has the right to demand of us & to do with us as He pleases: Romans 9:19-23. Are you then unmindful of this Truth of the Sovereignty & Wisdom of God? You've mentioned Eden & the temptations given to Jesus; why would you think that God instigated such things for evil? Yes, He could have prevented them but that certainly does not indicate any wrongdoing. We can never be in the place of God & He doesn't reveal all.
You wrote: "If according to the Old Testament God the Father created evil, then does it not follow that a part of God's nature contains evilness?"
"If according to the Old Testament God the Father created evil"...
That's false. God the Father hasn't created evil. Why would you assume that? There's nothing in the Old Testament as you claim that says such a thing. Go ahead and share every and all verses you assumed said that so we can get to the bottom of why you draw such a conclusion. I've read the Old Testament and have never seen such a thing, so we'll be interested in see your evidence for your claim.
God is good and created people with freewill. Just because people choose to disobey God doesn't automatically mean God is responsible for their behavior. Disobeying and defying God is evil. For example, God created angels, but just because one of the angels, choose evil (satan) doesn't mean God choose that. It's the opposite.
Now, let's analyze the other part of your assumption:
>"then does it not follow that a part of God's nature contains evilness?"
No, it does not follow. God didn't create evil. Defying God is evil. God doesn't want you to deft and disobey Him. He loved you enough to give you freewill to choose to obey Him or not. Yes, you can choose evil and choose to commit horrible acts, but you can't blame it on God. It's 100% your own fault for sinning. Similarly if you have kids and they're grown up as fully responsible adults and commit a crime, is it your fault? Should you have shown love by forcing them into compliance like slaves so they wouldn't do that? Some people assume God should do that to squash freewill and get rid of evil, but they usually don't want the same to restrict themselves, however.
So, I believe your assumption is false and there is nothing in the Bible that says any such thing. Have you completely read the Bible and are you a Christian?
I always thought it was God's fault for putting us through the storm with satan at the wheel. God could have skipped all the human pain and suffering and made us whole to begin with, but no, he allowed satan to reign over us, supreme. What is the point of prolonging the agony? Does the butterfly despise the caterpillar?
Dan, have you forgotten what happened at Eden? Gen.3:8-24
8 They heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden ...and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 ...God called Adam...Where art thou?
10 ... in the garden and I was afraid...I was naked and I hid myself.
11 God said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 Adam said,The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,she gave me of the tree and I did eat.
13 GOD said unto the woman,What is this that thou hast done? The woman said,The Devil beguiled me and I did eat.
14 Lord God said unto the Devil,Because thou hast done this, thou art CURSED above all cattle,and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST(man was made from the dust)shalt thou eat ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy SEED and her SEED; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; ...
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST YOU ARE, and unto DUST shalt thou return.
22 GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 ... GOD sent man forth from the garden of Eden,...
24 So GOD drove out the man and placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims and a flaming Sword which tu
was about me, and for whoever else holds these painful thoughts.
God Bless.
Can you absolutely know this is true?
No.
How do I act when you believe this thought?
I am angry. I tense up. I strike out at God. I hate God. I hate the suffering. I become a God-hater. I sin, more and more! And I don't care! I create more suffering in the world!
How would it be if I were delivered of this thought, if I suddenly couldn't think this thought, if I dropped it from my mind?
I would experience all the pain and suffering of humans, and I would be broken up. My heart would break. I would cry. I would pray to God to have mercy on us. I would have nowhere to go but to God. My heart would break so many times it would be permanently open. I might help those in suffering, I would know compassion.
Turn that original belief around 180 degrees: God is responsible..... "God is not responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world. God is not punishing us. Find 3 reasons why this might be true or truer.
1. my anger and hatred of God is causing suffering
I have no energy left to be kind or to lift up others.
2. It's possible that God is good; If I dare turn toward him to know him... Maybe I could
possibly find out about his Cross.... it might be the opposite of punishment....
3. I am punishing me. Over and over. I don't know how to get out of this cycle.
I am not doing this exercise for you. I am illustrating how I deal with painful beliefs in myself. Our painful beliefs bring so much suffering, but Christ brings grace and truth, and forgiveness in the suffering.
and re. the butterfly despising the caterpillar: the butterfly is a new creature altogether. As it begins to fly
in its new nature, it doesn't even look back at the caterpillar.... It may feel the effects of the caterpillar for awhile,
but sensations cannot stop its flight.
God Bless You, Who has not thought these questions?
These are my comments structured around Isaiah 45:7.
God creates the evil and is the letter that lets Satan prove us ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7).
Satan and his angels would be defunct without God propping them up, needing them as an opponent to fulfill prophesy.
God creates the evil until the 3 spirits are placed in the lake of fire, &
God comes down for the first time to dwell face to face with the born again.
God bless and pray for the homeless.
Not so fast there, lets talk about the stories essence. God needed a solid narrative to unleash an all-inclusive decay upon humanity. Adam and Eve were no match for Satan, and God knew this. A prize fighter vs 2 babies. So their sin for disobedience is passed down through every generation, breeding mayhem and chaos, and nothing changes until God's representative returns to stops the madness. Certainly one has to reflect on the pragmatic basis that God, full well knowing we humans can't make it alone, would send us out in a maze, alone, forever and always trying to get back home.
To put my point in perspective, I wouldn't want to be apart of the animal kingdom either. Almost every hour is spent looking for a kill, and looking to not be eaten. God loves them too. I wonder what the animals complain about, dream about.
I just washed that sin clean out of my soul, and my spirit was glad.
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