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This is something you must decide, there are different views. Study the words soul and spirit, and breath, how they are used through the Bible. One thing, there is no time or knowledge in death ( Psalm 6:5) so whatever you decide, it's like when we go to sleep the next thing we know, we wake up.
When the gospel of Christ was given to the Gentiles, the countries around, even the Jews were influenced by Hellenistic Greek Philosophy, beliefs like what happens when we die, mythical stories of death, paradise, hades, and the underworlds crossed over.
The word "soul" means "life," either physical or eternal. Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, ( Genesis 2:7) living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. The Greek word psuche meaning the soul, life, self, a person's distinct identity. If you study them, it is also used for all living beings' fish, animals, birds, and man. The soul is a living being but it is also our identity, we are all different in looks and personality, all our feelings, our thoughts, emotions, all that makes us, us.
The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, when writing about the spirit.
What I have been shown in my studies, spirit is our breath, also what we communicate and worship God through the Holy Spirit. When we die our breath goes back to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7) and our communication stops. ( Psalm 115:17) ( Psalms 146:4) ( Job 14:12-14)
We are asleep, body and soul until we are resurrected, that's when this mortal puts on immortality. ( 1 Corinthians 15:42, 51-56).
Sleep is used many times in the Bible for death and it is a very good example, may this give you another view and something you can study.
May we be led by the Spirit of truth.
RLW
This body (soul) of flesh we now live in can never inherit the next life.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine...... the soul that sinneth it shall die.
ALL MANKIND IS CHRISTS; we are his creation, it is his good pleasure to do with us as he DESIRES.
WE REBEL (that we are his possession) through UNBELIEF; he brings judgement upon us to CAUSE us to AGREE with him.
All this is a process to RECREATE us into a NEW creature that can inherit the NEXT LIFE.
No greater love has a man than to die for his brother.
Christ DIED for us, his brothers and sisters.
NOW do we AGREE to DIE for CHRIST, our brother, so he can CREATE in us a NEW LIFE that can live in the next world or will it take MORE JUDGEMENT for us to AGREE.
If we AGREE now (first resurrection) to DIE IN THE LORD; then, we never die and don't go through the next judgement (second resurrection).
Revelation 14:13 ....Blessed are the dead (in trespasses) which die IN THE LORD from henceforth.....
John 6:50 This is the (living) bread that came down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and NEVER DIE.
I will give you my perception. First off going by actual Testimonies of people who have experienced death and came back to life. As you can do research on this. There have been many people who have testified to have been in the presence of the Lord and experienced Heaven.
Now to the Scriptures. Just a couple. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23. Christ stating that He is the resurrection, John 11:25-26, and that whoever believes in Him will never die.
As to reply to , 1 Thessalonians 4:16. I see it as "the dead in Christ shall rise first" means those who have died, in Christ, have already risen and are with Christ where He is. Then in verse 17 as "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" to me means after we come to our physical death, as we all have to, will be with them and Christ as well.
I also believe there is a place of eternal torment that is separate from God. As Christ and Paul note a place of eternal punishment. Along with people who have died, and come back, have experiences/testimonies with this as well.
I'm not here to argue with anyone as this will be my only post. I hope my answer gives you direction Sissy.
May the Lord Bless you.
Actually Michael Judges and makes WAR- Revelation 12:v.7 &16:v.13-16. After the battle or ending the battle, Michael will lay hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and will bind him a thousand years, and will cast him into the bottomless pit, he will shut him up and will set a seal upon him, that the Devil deceives the nations no more. This is wonderful. Rev.20:v.1-3.
But how could Michael stand up and make war - Revelation 12:v.7- and Judging, if he not born first, just as Jesus and John the Baptist were born? Impossible of course. You see, it's very difficult in the midst of so much confusion to speak of the true revelation that God's Word brings unto us. Who is going to believe the true revelation that is within everyone's reach, living in this spiritual hostile environment full of speculation, and presumption, and conjectures, and apostasies, and cunningly devised fables, and so on?
This end-of-days moment and end of the second covenant, is very complicated unto us to understand and preaching what will really happen because the earth is infested with tares. Michael will lay hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and will bind him a thousand years, and will cast him into the bottomless pit, he will shut him up and will set a seal upon him, that the Devil DECEIVES THE NATIONS NO MORE. This is wonderful. Rev.20:v.1-3.
You will get two schools of thought on what happens to us at the death of our body of flesh.
I DON'T BELIEVE in a general rapture of the church; I BELIEVE we are gathered ONE BY ONE.
Isaiah 27:12
Matthew 24:40
I BELIEVE each believer is given HIS REWARD at the death of our body of flesh.
Our REWARD is ETERNAL LIFE and a BODY LIKE CHRIST. We become the IMAGE of Christ.
Colossians 1:15
Colossians 3:10
Romans 8:29
Every believer will receive the SAME REWARD; but different GLORIES.
Matthew 20:1-16
Romans 2:11
1 Corinthians 15:41
I BELIEVE when we leave our bodies of flesh we begin ruling and judging with Christ in the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 20:4
Obadiah 1:21
GBU
You do not believe in a rapture of the church but believe we are gathered one by one? Those who are gathered, where do they go?
One of the verses you used is Matthew 24:40 which says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. There are different views about two in the field, one is taken, one is left. Where does the one go that is taken? We know where the one that is left is, but what about the one that is taken?
Some say they are taken into judgment (Which I myself believe). Some say it's for salvation, a person is taken saved. Some say it's one of these gatherings, the Lord gathering His people from the four corners of the earth.
But in Luke's account, Luke 17:37, it tells us that they are taken into judgment. They are not taken to be with the Lord. They are drawn into the Valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon. The book of Revelation tells us that God is the one that draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo to fight against Him when He comes. So Luke 17:37 tells us that they are taken for judgment.
In Luke 17:37, they ask Jesus where the one that is taken goes. Jesus says "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." These are actually vultures. He's talking about that day when people are going to gather together in the Valley outside of Jerusalem to fight against Christ at His coming. And the birds are going to be called in to feed on their carcasses? These people have been drawn out into the battle. So He is talking about His day. So these people who are taken are not taken to be with the Lord.
As far as a rapture, you make no mention of the phrase "caught up" used in 1 Thess. chapter 4, nor do you mention that chapter at all, the chapter those who believe in a rapture use. The Greek word is HARPADZO which means to be snatched up by force. What are your thoughts on those who are forcefully snatched up?
Amen on Luke 17.
Quote: >>>The original language uses the word HARPADZO which means to be snatched away by force. What is your understanding?
Amen on Luke 17.
I also believe the taking away in Luke is judgment. Some mistake the taking away here is the rapture and the ones left behind goes into the Tribulation.
But in the days of Noah the Group being taken away is taken away by the flood not the Ark.
Luke 17:26-31. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Your question was: When we are gathered one by one where do we go.
It's not as much a question of where do we go: BUT who do we become.
I BELIEVE we become sons of God when we depart this body of earthly flesh.
Matthew 24:40
I BELIEVE the one taken becomes a son of God and the one left stays on earth confined to death and the grave, awaiting the second resurrection.
Luke 17:37
I BELIEVE the battle of Armageddon has been going on for 2000 years. It's the battle of worldly flesh against Spirit. Your fleshly mind has to be DESTROYED. The eagles (vultures) eat flesh. I BELIEVE it's happening now, you just can not see it because it is a spiritual battle. I BELIEVE Revelation 19; along with many other scriptures, describes this DESTRUCTION of the flesh as a necessity before the the marriage of the bride (can't be seen). Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Christ said my words are SPIRIT; the words being fulfilled, can't been seen.
Hebrews 12:18 For we ARE NOT COME unto the mount that can be TOUCHED ....
Hebrews 12:22 But you are come unto mount Sion (can't be touched or seen) (the battle for the kingdom can't be touched or seen), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (can't be touched of seen), and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to spirits of JUST men made PERFECT (mature).
If you have come into full maturity (being made perfect) then you are EXACTLY like the SEED you came from.
Luke 8:11 The parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of God.
You are a SON OF GOD. (but never with the glory of the firstborn, JESUS)
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur when Christ returns to physically marry His betrothed Bride, which is the church ( Matt. 22:1-14; Rev. 19:7-8). It is called a supper because the Light of Christ will eat, or devour all spiritual darkness on earth, and because the fowl will eat the flesh of all men, small and great ( Rev. 19:17-18). The fowl which fly in the midst of heaven represent the angels God will dispatch to execute His judgment upon the ungodly.
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and the rapture, Christ does mention "the one being taken and another left" during eschatological events associated with the Second Coming ( Matt. 24:40-41). However, His words should be examined in light of Matthew 13:24-30 and 24:31 in which Christ speaks of angels taking or gathering people to a specific location. Scripture speaks of a hiding place ( Zech. 14:4-5), or a bunker of sorts (Is. 26:20-21) where the elect will go or will be taken, which Christ calls His barn ( Matt. 13:30). The concept of a mass catching away and the disappearance of believers all over the world is a concept of Christian fiction which became popular in the mid-to-late 1990s. The earliest evidence of the concept being introduced into mainstream Christendom began with John Darby in 1827, whose teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the Scofield Bible.
May God bless you.
I BELIEVE the Spirit is revealing hidden truths to you. I will show you one of those hidden truths He has revealed to me.
The answer to every question is hidden somewhere in God's word.
Question? Who are the fowls of the air?
The answer is found in the parable of the sower.
Luke 8:5 A sower (Christ) went out to sow his SEED (word or God): and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the FOWLS OF THE AIR devoured it.
This parable is one of the few Jesus explained.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the DEVIL...
The FOWLS OF THE AIR are the DEVIL.
The fowls of the air (Satan) represent scavengers (vultures) and birds of prey (eagles). They (Satan) DEVOUR flesh and CONSUME dead flesh. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto SATAN (fowls of the air), that they learn not to blaspheme.
1 Corinthians 5:5 To DELIVER such an one unto SATAN for the DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be save in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Isaiah 65:25 ....and DUST (flesh) shall be the serpent's (Satan) meat .....
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS that fly in the midst of heaven (represents MAN, where God dwells), Come and gather yourselves together unto the (marriage) supper of the great God.
This is happening NOW. Our flesh is being DESTROYED so we can be married (BECOME ONE) to Christ at the death of this body.
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings (we are the kings of THE KING) .....
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant (sons of God) were slain (killed, destroyed) with the sword (TRUTH OF THE WORD) of him that sat upon the horse, which sword (TRUTH) proceeds out of his mouth: and an all the FOWLS were filled with their (the remnants) flesh.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur when Christ returns to physically marry His betrothed Bride, which is the church ( Matt. 22:1-14; Rev. 19:7-8). It is called a supper because the Light of Christ will eat, or devour all spiritual darkness on earth, and because the fowl will eat the flesh of all men, small and great ( Rev. 19:17-18). The fowl which fly in the midst of heaven represent the angels God will dispatch to execute His judgment upon the ungodly.
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and the rapture, Christ does mention "the one being taken and another left" during eschatological events associated with the Second Coming ( Matt. 24:40-41). However, His words should be examined in light of Matthew 13:24-30 and 24:31 in which Christ speaks of angels taking or gathering people to a specific location. Scripture speaks of a hiding place ( Zech. 14:4-5), or a bunker of sorts (Is. 26:20-21) where the elect will go or will be taken, which Christ calls His barn ( Matt. 13:30). The concept of a mass catching away and the disappearance of believers all over the world is a concept of Christian fiction which became popular in the mid-to-late 1990s. The earliest evidence of the concept being introduced into mainstream Christendom began with John Darby in 1827, whose teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the Scofield Bible.
May God bless you both, and thank you for your passion for His word!
I guess we just see it differently. You see the battle of Armageddon as something that has been going on for the last two-thousand years, whereas I see it as the last great battle on earth that is a future event. I don't really see it as a battle between flesh and spirit, but a literal battle that takes place in the valley of Megiddo, a literal place. If this battle has been going on for two-thousand years, wouldn't we know about it? When I read about this battle, it speaks in future tense, not present tense. I still believe that the "one taken" is taken into judgment, and in Luke's account, it answers the question. We can also see in Revelation that it is God who draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo for that last great battle. These armies will fight against Christ when He returns and will be totally destroyed. This battle has not taken place yet.
From what I see in Revelation chapter 19, the marriage feast will be taking place in heaven while destruction is taking place on earth. This destruction of the flesh spoken of in Revelation 19:17-18 is talking about an invitation for the birds, the fowl of the air to come and feast on the dead bodies that will be the result of Christ slaying the nations. Future event! John was given the vision of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19:19-21. This battle has not taken place yet. We're going to have to remain in disagreement on this since you see it as in the present, and I see it as future. I don't think we can come to the same conclusion this way.
I'm having a hard time coming to the same conclusion that we become sons of God after physical death. I believe we become sons of God the moment we receive Christ. That is given to us in John 1:12.
If you don't mind, I'm interested in your take on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. What does "caught up" mean? The original language uses the word HARPADZO which means to be snatched away by force. What is your understanding?
Thanks for your time!
Armageddon is a contraction of three words: Air + Magog + Eddon(Eddon means red)
The battle of Armageddon is to happen now BEFORE CHRIST's COMING,against three unclean spirits like frogs: Rev. 16:v.13-16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon(Rev.13:v.11), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty. - the LORD's Day -
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And JESUS said: verse 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
We, the GOD's people, we are in heavenly places in Christ JESUS- Ephesians 1:v.3 onwards, however, Satan and his messengers are also in this same heavenly environment as we are-Eph.6:v.12 and 2 Cor.11:v.13-15 among other references.
That said, Armageddon means:
1 - The battle is in heavenly places in Christ JESUS -the battle is in "Air"- heaven-
2 - The battle is against Magog:the battle is -will be -against all the Gentile nations ruled by satanic religions,more specificaly against the Catholicism ruled by the Beast of sea-the Papacy-Rev.13:5
3 - The battle is against Eddon(red): the battle is -will be- against the Dragon, Satan, a former Cherub, son of perdition, he will manifest himself as a lamb, a falsed lamb, a false and ruthless and kabbalistic messiah of the Jews, who will rule and guide Israel in near future-Rev.13:v.11-18 combined with 2Thes.2:1-17.
Actually,three unclean spirits like frogs;like frogs?Why?There will not be space to comment this kind of spirits of demons but I will give a clue for meditation:frogs are amphibians vertebrate animals that live in waters and dry land.
Waters-Rev.17:v.15
Dry land-Israel
The 2nd Plague against Egypt.
Heqet (Egyptian qt, also qtyt "Heqtit"), sometimes spelled Heket, is an Egyptian goddess of fertility, identified with Hathor, represented in the form of a FROG. [1] To the Egyptians, the frog was an ancient symbol of fertility, related to the annual flooding of the Nile. Heqet was originally the female counterpart of Khnum, or the wife of Khnum by whom she became the mother of Her-ur.[2] It has been proposed that her name is the origin of the name of Hecate, the Greek goddess of witchcraft.
Hecate or Hekate[a] is a goddess in ancient Greek religion and mythology, most often shown holding a pair of torches, a key, snakes or accompanied by dogs[1] and in later periods depicted in triple form. She is variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, night, light, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, ghosts, necromancy, and sorcery.[2][3]. Protector of Portals.
Comment: the 3 frogs in the Bible could be associated with demonic prayers of witch groups around the globe. I'm NOT going to study this because OUR faith is in Jesus Christ and non other. We all know that after the Rapture all hell is going to break loose on this world. We need to accept Jesus now. Keep your eyes pure.
Don't search this anymore. Interestingly, Wikipedia is the only one promoting study on frogs.
My Bible reads that God created everything. To be received with Thanksgiving.
I have never heard anyone teach that the word Armageddon is a compound word consisting of three parts (Air/Magog/Heddon). You're the first. It doesn't even break it down that way in the Hebrew. Revelation 16:16 tells us that the word Armageddon comes from the Hebrew tongue (language). In the Hebrew tongue, it is HAR-MEGIDDON, not AIR-MAGOG-HEDDON. HAR means valley, so my understanding would be that this is talking about the valley of MEGIDDO, a physical place on this earth where this future battle takes place. Reading through Revelation chapter 16, especially at verse 14, I see that the whole point of it all is that Satan is going through all this trouble to bring about a one world government, one world religious system, and one world economic system. It's so he can unify everybody under his control so that at the second coming of Christ, he will be in control of them to get them over to the valley of MEGIDDO to fight against the Lord at His second coming.
GOG is the word that the Jews use for all people who are the enemies of Israel. All of Israel's enemies are called GOG. MAGOG is the god, or idol of GOG. So when Satan is loosed out of his prison after the thousand year reign of Christ, he will go out and deceive the nations (GOG and MAGOG) to gather them together for one final battle.
That's my understanding. It doesn't quite match up with what you're saying. I've been following your conversation you've been having with Earl and some of the things I'm reading don't seem quite right. Either it's me just not comprehending what is being said, or the Lord is not allowing me to comprehend it for my own protection? I like to think it's the latter!
Yes, certainly I am the first , but as is written in Isaiah 48:v.6 and 7:
6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold,I knew them.
And Paul Apostle wrote:1Cor.2:v.9-11:
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of GOD knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Well, the battle is against THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - A SATANIC TRINITY
And the angel of the Lord said- Revelation 17:v.15: The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Scripture is clear:This quoted verse reveals us the AQUATIC ENVIRONMENT of these spirits of demons like frogs which guide the peoples or rule the nations of all tongues in whole earth, through all kind of devilish systems, as religious systems (catholicism, and Judaism, and spiritism, budhism, islamism, among many others), and political systems, and military systems, and social and cultural systems, among others systems. In fact, Satan goes to and fro and from walking up and down among them.
By the way,the new NAME of Satan in the current time of Apocalypse is Dragon.Rev.12:v.9-And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers(2Cor.11:v.13-15)were cast out with him.
10 Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the Power of His Christ...
We all have to keep digging.
The more of us digging and sharing edifies us all.
Truths just continue to be found. Sometime it is just a key that unlocks the next dig.
None of us have all of the keys.
I've had to repent hundreds of times to what I thought to be TRUTH when a new key was in opposition to my belief. I will gladly do so again.
There's GOLD, so let's KEEP DIGGING.
Workmen rightly dividing the word of God.
Verse 5 refers to this battle.
To which battle is this referring.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of SLEEP: for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and arose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us NOT SLEEP, as do others; but us watch an be sober.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall RISE FIRST (first resurrection)( Revelation 20:5):
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead that DIE IN THE LORD from henceforth .....
I BELIEVE this is the FIRST DEATH and the first resurrection also describe in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
I BELIEVE the ONLY one that hears this shout and trumpet is the one being CALLED to take part in the first resurrection. I come as a thief in the night. If everyone heard, it would no be as a thief.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men to die..I BELIEVE this is the same death in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 14:13...but after this the judgement.
I BELIEVE this judgement is by God's WORD; both written and living, on those that have their part in the first resurrection. 1 Peter 4:17
I BELIEVE 1 Thessalonians 4 is about those that take part in the first resurrection and are present with Christ upon his return at the second resurrection.
What difference is there in the snatching up, whether it be one at a time or collectively.
First of all, thank you for sharing your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. You listed each verse and after each one, you placed another verse. I've gone over the others that you list, and I do not see any correlation between those verses that you paired up. What I see is that they are referring to different things, so I cannot put them together.
I do agree with you that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about those that take part in the first resurrection and are present with Christ upon his return at the second resurrection. I agree with that, but only if you are referring to the first resurrection being the rapture of the church, where the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive and remaining (saved believers) join them in the air with Christ, and are then taken up to heaven to participate in the marriage feast, and then we come back with Christ when He returns to rule and reign for a thousand years. That I can agree to.
If you're asking me what difference is there in the snatching up, whether it be one at a time or collectively, my answer would be that in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, it's using plural language, not singular. That tells me that the HARPADZO refers to everyone in Christ getting snatched up together, the dead in Christ (plural) rise from the grave first, and then we which are alive and remain (saved believers, also plural), we go together to meet the Lord in the air, not one at a time. I think it's going to happen so fast that if it occurs in our lifetime, which would be so awesome, but it will happen so fast that we are not even going to realize that the dead in Christ rose before us. We just know they do because the scripture tells us they will.
Thanks again for your time!
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur when Christ returns to physically marry His betrothed Bride, which is the church ( Matt. 22:1-14; Rev. 19:7-8). It is called a supper because the Light of Christ will eat, or devour all spiritual darkness on earth, and because the fowl will eat the flesh of all men, small and great ( Rev. 19:17-18). The fowl which fly in the midst of heaven represent the angels God will dispatch to execute His judgment upon the ungodly.
Concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and the rapture, Christ does mention "the one being taken and another left" during eschatological events associated with the Second Coming ( Matt. 24:40-41). However, His words should be examined in light of Matthew 13:24-30 and 24:31 in which He speaks of angels taking or gathering people to a specific location. Scripture speaks of a hiding place ( Zech. 14:4-5), or a bunker of sorts (Is. 26:20-21) where the elect will go or will be taken, which Christ calls His barn ( Matt. 13:30). The concept of a mass catching away and the disappearance of believers all over the world is a concept of Christian fiction which became popular in the mid-to-late 1990s. The earliest evidence of the concept being introduced into mainstream Christendom began with John Darby in 1827, whose teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the Scofield Bible.
May God bless you both, and thank you for your passion for His word!
At the death of our worldly flesh we are GIVEN the FULLNESS of Christ.
I don't believe we have to WAIT.
Twice in Revelation it says for the TIME IS AT HAND.
I BELIEVE every thing in Revelation; since John wrote this, is relevant to that person reading it, during their lifetime. It has the same meaning to those 1900 years ago as it does to us today. The beast, the false prophet, the devil, the fowls of the air, the lake of fire, the first resurrection, the second death, the seals, the plagues, the vials, the wedding supper, the marriage, the 42 months.
All of the GOSPEL has the same meaning; the future always becomes the present.
The WORD says I speak of things that are going to be, as if they are.
What you are saying is making a little more sense. I can agree about the down payment of the purchased possession. We have been purchased but not yet redeemed. One day Christ will come for His purchased possession. It's like we are sitting at the "will call" waiting for the one who purchased us to come pick us up.
As far as given the fullness of Christ, I'm not sure I can agree on that one. I believe when we die that we go to be with Him. As believers, we may be able to experience the fullness of Christ (MAKARIOS) while we are here, but until we receive our glorified bodies, we don't have the fullness yet. And it is a waiting period before we receive our glorified body. That does not happen at the point of physical death.
And yes, the meaning of Revelation has never changed. But when I look at it, I have to myself who it's referring to and who it's not referring to because not everything in it pertains to those in Christ Jesus. Some portions pertain to believers, and some to non-believers. But it is an important book for us all to read and study. In fact, it is the only book in the bible that offers a special blessing to those who read it.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I still would like your take on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, the "caught up" portion especially. I know I've asked three times now and I am not trying to be a pest. If you choose not to answer this, that's okay. I won't bug you about it again!
Let's read Matthew 25 (ten virgins) till we "get it."
Romans 14:8 For whether we LIVE, we LIVE unto the Lord; and whether we DIE, we DIE unto the Lord: whether we LIVE therefore, or DIE, we are the Lord's.
John 6:20 This is the bread that cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and NOT DIE.
John 11:26 And whosoever LIVETH and BELIEVETH in me shall never die. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?
Luke 20:36 Neither can they DIE any more (because they DIED with Christ on the cross): for they are EQUAL to the angels; and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.
Revelation 14:13 ....Blessed are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD from henceforth....
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH.
Christ resurrection DESTROYED DEATH. (For those that BELIEVE)
John 8:51 Verily, Verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my sayings, he shall NEVER SEE DEATH.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto to you, There be some STANDING HERE (this was 2000 years age), which SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom.
Colossians 1:27 ...THIS MYSTERY....CHRIST IN YOU....(The First SON OF GOD)
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath LIFE; and he that hath not the Son HATH NOT LIFE.
Do these scriptures imply that we sleep and await and appointed time; or has our APPOINTED time ARRIVED upon the death of this earthly body.
You don't go to heaven; you BECOME a SON OF GOD. OMNIPRESENT not confined to one location or place.
There will be two separate future resurrections, the first one will be for believers, which will will take place when Christ comes for His church at the rapture ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The second resurrection will happen after the thousand year reign of Christ. No believers will be part of the second resurrection.
Here is what happens when a believer dies. First of all, the word death literally means separation. At the point of death, the physical body dies and goes into the grave and awaits the first resurrection (Rapture). But at the point of physical death, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to be with the Lord. This is for believers. For the non-believer, their soul goes to a temporary place and awaits the second resurrection.
But for the believer, we go to be with the Lord. When Christ comes to gather His church, we will come back with Him, unless of course we are still alive on this earth when He comes.
But for those who have died, they go to be with the Lord, they will come back with Him, and their bodies will be raised from the grave. And when the bodies are brought out of the grave, and this is according to 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, when the Lord calls those out of the grave, the body comes up, and in the twinkling of an eye, the body is changed into a spiritual body for that spirit to inhabit forever.
As far as judgement goes, every person will stand before God. But for the believer, our judgement is not for salvation because Christ already paid for that. Our judgement will be to determine our reward.
For the non-believers, they await the second resurrection, they will be judged as non-believers, those who have rejected Jesus Christ, and they will be cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: (Believers) on such the second death has no power. There are two deaths for the non-believer. There's physical death, and there's spiritual death.
There are TWO deaths, TWO resurrections and TWO judgements.
The FIRST death was Christ's death on the cross, the FIRST resurrection was Christ resurrection and the FIRST judgement is the JUDGEMENTS (TRUTHS) of God's word.
God's WORD says WE (sinful flesh) died (first death, you died to Christ) on the cross with Jesus, we were RESURRECTED (first resurrection) with him and our life is HID in Christ, we are being JUDGED (first judgement) by the TRUTH of God's word NOW.
If you AGREE with this TRUTH and this TRUTH becomes a reality (LIFE) to you; you will be TRANSLATED to the LIKENESS of CHRIST at the death of this body of flesh and will never see death.
If this TRUTH does't become a reality to you; you will died and lay in the grave until the SECOND resurrection, SECOND death (you have to die to Christ), SECOND judgement (truths of God's WORD).
ALL MANKIND is going to become sons of God; but God does it in HIS time frame or in HIS different AGES.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature (mankind) WAITETH for the manifestation of the sons of God (those in the first resurrection that are TRANSLATED into the LIKENESS of Christ and never see death).
Romans 8:21 Because the creature (mankind) ITSELF also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave, second resurrection) into the glorious LIBERTY of the children of God (second death and second judgement).
There is ONLY one LIFE and that LIFE is CHRIST
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in HIS times (ages) HE shall shew, who is the BLESSED and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings (those in HIS LIKENESS), and the Lord of lords (those in HIS LIKENESS);
1 Timothy 6:16 Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto .....
Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be ONE FLESH ...
Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but ONE FLESH. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.
When we die, the spirit goes back to God and our soul sits in Hades, awaiting resurrection.
Look up Lazarus and the rich man and father Abraham.
Since 1 Thessalonian 4:17 occurs at the last trumpet, equivalent to Revelation 11:15, it is the first resurrection of the sealed saints only. The dead rise first before the living, therefore this is a small, treasured group of people, and not the whole group. Revelation 14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand...These sealed saints overcame the beast and his mark, they are virgins who will rule with Christ for 1K years. Who among us can be described like that, and who will make it to the end alive?
IT IS NOT Ezekiel 37:1-14 either (2nd resurrection), because here BOTH houses of Israel (Israel & Judah) are being resurrected and stand up as the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel. AND THEY'RE ALL DEAD!!!
This "lifting up" event is misinterpreted so badly, seeing that billions and billions of Christian sinners will require a new earth and new heaven to accommodate them all. Everyone involved should humble their place in line. Counting yourselves among the Revelation 14:4 saints is rather precarious, indeed. Does man immediately deserve to stand alongside the elect saints, and Jesus Christ?
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The second resurrection is for the rest, other than the elect, of which the majority are not. When the fast bullets fly, we will get a new perspective on Hebrews 9:27.
This truth is rejected because it don't go over well with those who don't believe in eternal security. They believe you want know you're saved until after the judgment. Here's one of their supposed defining verse.
1 Peter 1:5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ( READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.)
This scripture is the lord showing his faithfulness in coming to redeem his possession that he purchased with his own blood purchase.
Salvation is not being revealed, The Possession is.
Let's look at that scripture taking it from verse 3.
1 Peter 1:3-5. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a "LIVELY HOPE" by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance INCORRUPTIBLE, and UNDEFILED, and that FADETH NOT AWAY, ( RESERVED ) IN HEAVEN FOR YOU,
Who are "KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD" through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
INCORRUPTIBLE, UNDEFILED, FADETH NOT AWAY, RESERVED, KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD. Ready to be revealed.
Sure sounds like we can count on it!!
God bless.
I think you'll find out what my camp is here in a moment. It all pretty much centers around this trumpet. All it says in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is that the trump, or trumpet of God is going to sound. It doesn't say the last trumpet. In the book of Revelation, there are judgments that break out when different seals on the book are broken. The next to the last group are seven trumpet judgments.
And at the blowing of each trumpet, there are certain judgments that are poured out upon the earth. And there is a seventh trumpet. It's not called the last trumpet. It's called the seventh trumpet.
Those who believe that the rapture's going to happen after the tribulation, and right before the second coming, they use 1 Corinthians 15:51 and the book of Revelation to show that the seventh trumpet is the trumpet of God, or the last trumpet, as 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 calls it.
They say that since the seventh is the last trumpet, that's when the rapture's going to happen which means it's after the tribulation period and right before His second coming.
Well, there are a lot of problems with that point of view.
First of all, here's the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. In 1 Corinthians 15:50, it's called the last trumpet. That's a title. In the book of Revelation, one through seven trumpet, those are titles. It's the seventh trumpet. It's not called the last trumpet but the seventh trumpet.
So we have different titles that do not connect. Yes, the seventh trumpet, obviously if that's the last one that's blown, that's the last one. But it is not "the" last trumpet. That's a title.
If you mind I would like to add to the ruckus. lol.
Just to answer your question directly we don't worry about the soul.
We're concerned about the Spirit.
I don't believe they're the same.
"If I'm not mistaking" I believe your soul is connected to this earthly body. It wars against our Spirit,
Our Spirit will be connected with our Spiritual body where there will be no more Sin.
Psalms 16:9-10. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Brother Jesse or Brother Chris can check me on that, I do value their opinion.
As well as others.
Our natural birth we was born "Children of Adam. a living soul but spiritually dead! Our motions in our members was one with the Law " Ministration of condemnation " When we were born again "Born from above" We died in Adam and was born of the second Adam. "Christ" "A quickening spirit"
REFERENCE VERSES:
1 Corinthians 15:45-47.
2 Corinthians 3:6-10.
Romans 7:4-11.
We are hidden in Christ and that will never change, Your body goes in the ground, your spirit is with the Lord," He in you and you in Him.
Romans 6:3-5.
Colossians 3:3-4. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 Thessalonians 4:14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.
The body SLEEP in th ground and is raised a spirit body! and the spirit goes to Jesus. " How else could he bring it with him?"
John 14:19-20.
John 11:26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
I hope that helps, If not you're probably confused times 10.
God bless.