When you are dead, you are, for lack of better words, ASLEEP! You do not go directly to Heaven or Hell, nor anywhere for that matter, but the grave - which is Hell. Per the Strong's Concordance, Hell = Sheol, covered pit or hole in the ground - grave. So, in effect, we ALL go to HELL in death. When dead, you see nothing, know nothing, hear nothing, think nothing, period. You are just waiting for Christ to return and resurrect you from the dead state. If you are not raised, then perhaps that is eternal separation from YAHWEH GOD, which might be called Hell or damnation in a general sense. The Bible clearly states that there will be those who are thrown into the "Lake of Fire" which is symbolic of total, complete, elimination, never to be seen again. Going to heaven after death was not mentioned in the Old Testament, but "Sleeping with My Fathers" was several times, such as old Jacob Israel said to Joseph. Heaven as a place of after-death-living was a fairly recent skewing of Biblical text. Christ Yahshua told us Himself that "No man but the one standing before you has been to Heaven" or words to that effect. Heaven is another dimension that we are not privy to. And remember, Christ is COMING TO EARTH, not us going to Him in Heaven. Remember, several of the myths of going to Heaven are taken from Christ's Parables such as the Rich Man and Lazarus. Christ spoke of the Rich man being across a gulf which was purely symbolic. Parables were ONLY for illustrating a point and were NOT to be taken literally. There is no gulf where you go to rest and where you can see folks in Heaven and they can see you as well. Christ Himself did not simply "morph" from one state to another after dying on the cross. He was DEAD AS A DOORNAIL and in Sheol for 3 days and nights. He did not go visiting folks in a mythical Hell nor go anywhere for that matter. Otherwise, he did not actually die and therefore, did not cleanse you of your sins. Stop listening to your 501C3 preacher and read the HB
In regards to hell, it does mention brimstone, a weeping & nashing of teeth, which leads me to believe it is more than just a hole in the ground. You are right that hell is not something that God created. Hell is something that humans unleash upon each other as James describes. Also, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus uses proper names, which could indicate that this is not a parable.
Joe, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
If Lazarus and and the rich man is not a parable; it makes Christ's words a lie:
Matthew 13:34 ALL these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES;and without a PARABLE SPAKE HE NOT UNTO THEM.
Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest this parable unto us, or even to all?
The disciples walked with Jesus three and one half years and never understood a word he said; UNTIL he took them aside and explained the PARABLES to them. Today you can't understand the PARABLES; unless CHRIST IN YOU explains them to you. Ask and you shall receive.
Ezekiel 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a FIRE in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming FIRE shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Ezekiel 20:42 Then said I, Ah Lord God, Doeth he not speak in PARABLES?
Luke 12:49 I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be ALREADY KINDLED?
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptised with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished!
Matthew 3:11 ......he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost; and with FIRE.
John 10:6 Jesus spake this parable unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which he spoke to them.
Please forgive me to reply to this but I feel to. I understand you don't believe in Hell, or eternal damnation, though I do and to me it seems it was a very important thing Christ taught. To Repent from sins/iniquity and follow Him down the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. As He is the way.
The Lord taught not all are going down that path. Matthew 7:13-14. Here He states not everyone is to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 7:21. As He stated there shall be some to go away to everlasting punishment but the righteous to life eternal Matthew 25:31-46. Numerous parables of the wicked being separated from the just in the end Matthew 13:37-50.
Though if Luke 16:19-31, is a parable what it states is not hard to see. The man who suffered and begged died and was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man who lived lavishly and did not help Lazarus died and was in Hades in torment. Even though he begged for a touch of water He did not receive it. Just being told how Lazarus who suffered was now comforted and he was now in torment. Even when he begged that a message be sent to his family that they repent so they would not end up as he did. He was told that if they hear not Moses and the prophets, they would neither be persuaded by one raising from the dead.
I also don't understand how you think the "fire" of God that tries/chastens us and our works it the same as "eternal fire, torment and punishment".
Could you please explain some of these things? As I see it very dangerous to say a place of eternal damnation does not exist.
Have you ever looked into people who have died, came back to life, and actually experienced a place that is worse than we could imagine? Usually calling it hell and has converted many people to believing in Christ. What would you say to them?
I would never think to tell anyone hell is not real. What if it is and you were wrong? Making people think it doesn't matter what they do?
Richard, I would like to ask a favour. I don't know how to look up a word in Greek. Would you please look up the Greek word "torments" used in Luke 16:23 and tell me how many other places it appears and how it is applied. Thank you.
The Greek word for "torments" in Luke 16:23 is pronounced "basanos". If you type in "Strongs number G931" on google that will bring up links to this Greek word you can look over.
The definition can be of a "touchstone to test gold or silver". The rest of the definitions are "the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth, torture, torment, acute pains, of the pains of a disease, of those in hell after death".
It seems it is only used three times in the NT. Matthew 4:24, Luke 16:23, Luke 16:28.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
Thank you for looking up the word "torments."
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and TORMENTS, and those that were possessed with devils, and those that were lunatick, and those that had the palsy, AND HE HEALED THEM.
Luke 16:23 And in hell (grave) he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of TORMENT.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting, O grave (hell), were is thy victory?
If I am not mistaken; the same Greek word is used in both Luke 16:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:55. Therefore; Christ, at his resurrection, had victory over both; DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) and HELL (hades).
I BELIEVE that both verse mean the grave. Death and the grave are the wages of sin.
Since Judah was the only one that had five brothers and the Pharisees claimed to be of the house of Judah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees the first will be last and the last will be first. They WOULD NOT be part of the first resurrection but would have to wait until the second resurrection. They would be in TORMENT(not having drank from the living water); but after the second resurrection they would be healed as described in Matthew 4:24.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED.....
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with his wisdom and His understanding.
There is two groups of people in God's Kingdom. The ones being called NOW; resurrected with Christ, will be the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, SHALL BE GIVEN to the people of the saints (priest) of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM (being made one with Christ they will obey us also).
Those raised at the second resurrection are the ones under the authority of God's priest and judges.
I very much appreciate your time. As your reply lead me to do some reading about the "resurrections". Us in Christ being part of the first resurrection having no part in the lake of fire or "second death". Revelation 20:6.
As our Lord Jesus Christ being raised from the dead is our confirmation that there shall be a resurrection of our actual physical bodies. Acts 17:24-31.
In that the second resurrection is for all the people quoted in Revelation 21:8 as you stated. Those who are not with Christ.
As you have stated before "all shall worship God" with Scripture of it. As it is detailed in the Book of Enoch this is also correct though it shall not save them. From the second death or the lake of fire.
62.5 And one half of them will look at the other, and they will be terrified, and will cast down their faces, and pain will take hold of them when they see that Son of a woman sitting on the throne of His Glory.
62.6 And the mighty kings, and all those who possess the earth, will praise and bless and exalt Him who rules everything that is hidden.
62.7 For from the beginning that Son of Man was hidden, and the Most High kept Him in the presence of His power, and revealed Him only to the chosen.
62.9 And all the mighty kings, and the exalted, and those who rule the dry ground, will fall down before Him, on their faces, and worship; and they will set their hopes on that Son of Man, and will entreat Him, and will petition for mercy from Him.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
Do you agree with these Scriptures?
As I also just want to be clear in what you believe the "second death" is. That this is where those souls/spirits will be separated from God, and us, for eternity? Or something else?
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and His understanding.
I believe if there is a second death; there has to also be a first death.
Two resurrections; therefore, two deaths.
God is no respector of person; therefore, if the ones in second resurrection die (are judged) in the lake of fire; the ones in the first resurrection also die (are judged) in the lake of fire.
When Christ caused us to become one with him (CHRIST IN US) we we cast into (CHRIST) the lake of fire. To partake of the bread of life and the fountain of living water we also have to partake of the judgement of fire. As the bread and water gives us life, the fire cleanses and purifies us. We are being judged in the lake of fire (word of God) now; therefore, we want have our part in the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is APPOINTED unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:
We died with Christ on the Cross (first death). We are being judged IN CHRIST now, BY THE WORD, BY FIRE. Those appointed the second death will be judged IN CHRIST ( Hebrews 10:31), BY THE WORD, BY FIRE.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once for the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (NOW, to those in the first resurrection the second coming is NOW; we don't have to wait for the literal appearance of Christ) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.
For those in the second resurrection their judgement IN CHRIST is going to last awhile. Matthew says those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit want be saved in this age or the next age. This age so far has lasted 2000 years. We don't know how long the next age will last.
I believe those in the second resurrection will be raised back in bodies of flesh. The first resurrection, glorified bodies.
Revelation 20:7 ...Satan (flesh) will be loosed out of his prison (death and the grave),
1 Corinthians 15:40 celestial (glorified); terrestrial (flesh and blood)
Again I thank you for your replies. As it is our destiny to grow in the Spirit of Christ and see with His eyes.
As the ways of God are beyond what I could fathom. Truly my faith in God and Jesus Christ being, that whatever the way of the Lord is, I know it is the right way and I am His forever. Even if I don't understand. Keeping root in the Word with a pure heart and staying close to the Lord. He shall direct us down the straight and narrow path. His Will shall be done.
Weather we believe "hell" to be a place of eternal torment like stated in Matthew 25:46. Or as you explain. It is a place we do not want to go or have anything to do with. Christ stating in Matthew 10:28.
As we who are in Christ here are Blessed to have been chosen by Him to be His.
In 1 Corinthians 16:22 stating those who "love not the Lord"(not with the Lord) to basically let him be set aside for the coming Judgement of the Lord.
A couple about saving a soul. As we can only plant or water, it is God who gives the growth. James 5:19-20, Jude 1:23.
Again thank you for your time and posts brother. It means a lot.
Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
I DON'T BELIEVE the scriptures can contradict themselves.
There are hundreds of places in the scriptures that say ALL will worship GOD.
They can not worship God if they are in Hell.
In Ezekiel 5 and Zachariah 13 it says a third will be brought through the fire; Revelation 9:18 says a third are killed by fire, smoke and brimstone. These have to be the same third as in Ezekiel and Zachariah because verse 20 says the rest repented not. This same third is the ones in Revelation 8.
Revelation 19 The whole chapter is about the ones called to the marriage supper. Before we can come to the supper we have to be cleansed. We are cast into the lake of fire (vs 20). We have our flesh destroyed (vs 21). God is no respector of persons. Have we ever been fearful, unbelieving, liars. Revelation 21:8 says all these will have their part in the lake of fire. Did not Christ have victory over DEATH AND THE GRAVE Revelation 20:14 says DEATH AND THE GRAVE were destroyed by the lake of fire.
I BELIEVE ALL THINGS HAVE AN APPOINTED TIME
Ecclesiastes 3
I believe ALL things are by the will of God; good and bad. His will is always carried out by man; but THE WORKS ARE OF GOD. Therefore GOD will have mercy on ALL; but in HIS appointed TIME.
Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall CORRECT THEE ......
Jeremiah 46:28 ......but I will not make a full end of thee, but CORRECT THEE in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly UNPUNISHED.
Psalms 94:10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall he not CORRECT? ......
FOR MEDITATION: If the damned have a natural body at their resurrection; literal fire will kill them in a few seconds. If they are resurrected with a glorified body: literal fire can't hurt them.
SPIRITUAL FIRE CAN hurt both; natural and glorified.
Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
I was raised in a baptist church; had numerous close relatives, great grandfathers, uncles and cousins that were and are baptist ministers. Until I was 70 years old I was died in the wool; pro free will, HELL and heaven taught. NONE would have convinced me to be otherwise. God turned my life upside down; or right side up. He shut every door. I live in the house I was born in. My grandparents lived there before my parents. The house is over 100 years old. The house was built before there was rural electricity or indoor plumbing. Over the years electricity and plumbing were added. These were added in the 30's and 40's. About the time I turned 70 the insurance company said they could no longer insure the house without the electrical being updated. I started rewiring the house; no sooner than I had the wiring tore out, a hail storm beat the shingles off the house. Then the cast iron plumbing rusted out allowing sewage to escape under the house. I was living on SS so couldn't fix everything. I had 3 light bulbs over my one chair, a bed and numerous pots and pans to catch leaking roof water and no indoor plumbing or hot water; but LOTS of time. All this the WORKS OF GOD. I would study the bible 18 hours a day seven days a week. God especially caused me to study the prophets and Revelation.
I did this about 5 years. I never read outside information or had other study material other than the KJB and the HOLY SPIRIT. About 10 months ago I started going to my daughter house to read the bible on line. My eyesight isn't so good and I don't like using the 3x reading glasses to see. I didn't know there was a forum like this to discuss the bible. At the end of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; Jesus said if they want believe the law and prophets they want believe one raised from the dead.
I change my mine because you want find any prophecies of free will, HELL or heaven; only a KINGDOM.
Hello Earl, Thank you also for sharing some of your life here. I think there is definitely a mystery in how and why God draws close to us in what we perceive as good and bad, mountain top or riverbed in this time. The more surrendered we are, the more we are like Him and the less we are of ourselves. The highest honor to the Father is to fully love His Son and live and breathe within Him by free will choice. Still part of the mystery is Jesus as part of the Godhead so he can also by choice be surrendered in the Father and in the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is also surrendered in God the Father and in God the Son by choice and God the Father by the fact that both the Son and the Holy Ghost are free willed can rest in their surrendered Will as His own. We as born again Christians are called back in this time into this Holy Will by choice to be made free again in this loving, eternal, holy purpose of Jesus Christ with the angels and all of the redeemed. The harvest will be full and complete at the end. Like the natural world, there are parts of what was planted that never make the harvest and have no purpose in the full and abundant harvest and will be forgotten. Spiritually, these forgotten parts, souls, of the planting are aware that the harvest took place without them and they have been separated eternally from the Holy Will of God.
I am honored that you shared that history of your life with us. Thank you very much. It means a lot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I change my mine because you wont find any prophecies of free will, HELL or heaven; only a KINGDOM."
I think you are correct as the statement "free will" is not in the Bible directly. Though several verses that, I believe, point to this are: Joshua 24:15, John 7:17, Galatians 5:13, James 1:13-16. For a couple.
The word "hell" has taken over the Hebrew word "sheol" in the OT. Three Greek words "gehenna" "hades" and "tartarus" in the NT. All described as "bad" places simply.
For Heaven there are numerous as the one used the most in the NT, hundreds of times, is "ouranos". Strongs definition "the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness power: eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity)". In John 3:13, John 3:31. Kingdom used a lot together with this word as in Matthew 6:10, Matthew 18:3.
Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS knowledge.
HEAVEN
Flesh sees everything as natural. Heaven to natural eyes is out there somewhere. In Revelation where new Jerusalem is described; flesh sees this as a literal city with literal mansions and literal streets and literal trees and literal rivers. Bodies that have been glorified don't need houses or streets or walls or gates. We are the houses (mansions) of God, we are the streets of gold, we are the foundations of the city, we are NEW JERUSALEM. Revelation describes the foundation as twelve precious and costly stones. We are those (living) ( 1 Peter 2:4) stones that make up the city of new Jerusalem. We are the gates made of one pearl ( Psalms 23:9). Revelation represents something that is not LITERAL (which shall disappears)
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, SIGNIFIETH the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are MADE, that those things WHICH CANNOT BE SHAKEN REMAIN.
This is why you don't see prophecies of heaven; WE ARE HEAVEN, WHERE GOD DWELLS.
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven (you) shall be SHAKEN.
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the WICKED might be SHAKEN out of it?
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
We are the stars of heaven (God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven)
The powers (of Satan that rules by natural flesh) in heaven (US) shall be SHAKEN (flesh will be destroyed and replaced by Spirit)
Revelation is all about the removing of the LITERAL and replacing with the SPIRIT.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
If were are judged by Christ, sanctified by Christ, justified by Christ, cleansed by Christ, saved by Christ and our God is a consuming fire; therefore we have our part in the lake of fire or the fire of the Lord.
Being one with Christ we also become the fire of the Lord. Those in the second resurrection are going to be judge by fire (us). They will be resurrected in TORMENTS not having living water.
Zachariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto (new) Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of host, even upon them SHALL BE NO RAIN (living water).
Amos 8:11 Behold the days comes, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of (natural) bread, nor a thirst for (natural) water, but of hearing the WORDS OF GOD (living bread and living water)
Thank you for your reply earl. I like that about us being the precious stones. One thing is the Psalms verse you quoted about the one pearl. Seems to be a little typo as Psalms 23 only goes up to verse 6. I'm interested in the verse you have for that.
As we are the tabernacle of God where He dwells. Revelation 21:3. If I may ask one question. In Revelation 21:7-8. How God speaks of two "groups" of people. They that overcometh which are His. Then basically the wicked who have their part in the lake of fire. How do you perceive this?
As you stated Revelation not being "literal" (which shall disappear or pass away). I understand as those things being in the Spirit world and not of this physical world which is all vanity. The breadth of God. Job 34:14-15.
Brother Richard, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.
The lake of fire is the same thing; that, in the Old Testament was called the Fire of the Lord. Natural eyes see this as literal fire; but is it?
Judges 6:20 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, take the flesh and unleavened cakes (represents us) and lay them upon this rock (represents Christ), and pour out the broth And he did so.
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and unleavened cakes (US), and there rose up fire from OUT OF THE ROCK (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE), and consumed the flesh and unleavened cakes (US).
Zachariah 14:12 ......Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet....
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword (is the word of GOD, God is FIRE) of him upon the horse, which sword (WORD) proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their (own) flesh.
To understand who the fowls are; we have to go to the parable of the sower of the seed.
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to so his seed; and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the FOWLS OF THE AIR devoured it.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are those that hear, then cometh the devil (fowls or the air)....
Luke 13:19 It (kingdom of heaven; Christ in you) is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air (devil) lodged therein.
John 15:5 I am the vine; ye are the branches (where the fowls lodge)...
Psalms 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the air have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out DEVILS by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God (CHRIST IN YOU) is come unto you.
Thank you very much for all your time replying with me brother Earl. As the ways of God are far surpassing what I could fully understand. I truly am a baby in Christ. Though I am His for eternity and all I want to do is His Will and make our Lord happy.
I very much appreciate all you have shared with me Earl.
May our Father pour His Blessings upon you my brother.
Brother Richard, it should be Psalms 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates, even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in (to new Jerusalem).
I agree that the bible uses the word sleep or sleepeth as a term for death. It is the physical body that is put in the grave and the physical body lying there gives the appearance of a person sleeping. We know that Lazarus was dead for a few days and Jesus said he was sleeping. So yes, sleep does refer to death, physical death.
However, there is a living spirit/soul in everyone that departs the physical body upon death. The physical body goes into the grave but the soul departs immediately.
You mention that "The Bible clearly states that there will be those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire which is symbolic of total, complete, elimination, never to be seen again."
I say those who are cast into the Lake of Fire are those who were not part of the first resurrection. When you say elimination, do you mean the same as annihilation? My understanding is that those who are cast into the lake of fire will neither be eliminated nor annihilated, but will suffer for eternity.
I do believe that when a believer dies (Physical death) their soul immediately is in the presence of the Lord. You say that a person "does not go directly to Heaven or Hell, nor anywhere for that matter, but the grave? But then add that the grave is Hell." That sounds contradicting. If they don't go to Heaven or Hell, but you say the grave is Hell, where do they go?
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Where's the Lord? Jesus dying on the cross told the man on the cross next to Him that today you will be with me in paradise. That man died. Where did he go? Paradise doesn't sound much like Hell to me.
Your advice on reading the Holy Bible is great advice. It's how we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As far as a 501C3 preacher goes, I do not know what that is? I do know that there are some great pastors/bible teachers out there. But, as the Bereans did, we are to search the scriptures to see if those things line up!
Not sure about Lazarus being dead nor the rich man nor Father Abraham in the story told by the Son of God. There was complete separation between Lazarus in the comfort of the bosom of Abraham and the rich man. We also know the rich man was of thirst and willing for any possible chance of recovery. If no recovery was possible at least a warning to his brethren who thought they understood their place in Abraham like he did when he was alive in the flesh. The gulf between the eternal blessing upon Lazarus and the eternal separation thereof of the rich man is the difference between heaven and hell. The body (flesh) of Jesus was crucified unto death for us if we can be that one whom the dogs licked the sores of by the gate.
So it's seeming that you know everything about after this life in your post? What would you say to all the people who have had NDE experiences and have been dead. Experiencing things like Jesus Christ, a Heavenly place, others who were deceased, a Hell like place of darkness, out of body experiences, etc? Miracles coming back to life. Some of these people being atheist and this is what converted them to the Lord. I have met one personally myself. Would you just call them all liars?
What would you say to me about all my experiences that most in this world, probably you as well, probably would not believe? After giving my life to Jesus Christ.
So you do not believe in the resurrection of Christ?
God makes the rules not men and no preacher taught me anything. The Holy Ghost is my teacher.
Be radically saved with no regrets ever no doubts - In Reply on John 3:13 - 3 years ago
I'm one of those people too! :)
I was interpreting a natal horoscope to a Methodist (on Yom Kippur); when the Lord appeared in a vision! I was in shock with conviction. I got my 25lb tv Bible and started reading all verses about stars, astrology, the death penalty for doing those things. I confessed I deserve to die.
Then I saw a vision of hell in the floor. Dense, dark, twisting roots, screaming; vile, unclean, loathsome! I stood on a chair.
I sensed a Hand being held out to me, from the ceiling. I could not see it, but I was convinced it was there. I reached up and closed my fingers.
I fell into the floor but hell had disappeared. I was delivered from who knows how many demons. If you serve satan knowingly or even unknowingly, you are in-dwelt and oppressed. I passed out.
I woke up, day 1 with the Holy Spirit. Everything looked the same, but I knew it was different. I cleaned "house" all day of everything occult. I filled a 35 gallon trash can with occult books, encyclopedic, planet and star charts.
I dragged it all into the garage. I didn't know I needed a witness. 2 days later the Methodist came back. I told what happened: I was saved. We rejoiced. I drag the stuff out to the patio; with charcoal lighter and matches. It was a metal can, I lit it up. No one called the fire dept on me.
ACTS 19:19. The Holy Spirit was helping me walk out the New Birth. Earlier that day I poured out booze, flushed lots of pills I was sorta planning my suicide with, pot, cigarettes.
Next day I sat on the sofa waiting for the DT's to kill me. Got sleepy went to bed. Next day, same thing. Third evening I realized I had been delivered from detox and withdrawal. Talk about joy and happiness!! I was going to live and declare the Greatness of Jesus Christ all the days of my remaining life.
And here I am, born again, blood washed, over-coming child of the Most High God. Holy Spirit filled and educated. Choose Jesus Today.
If Lazarus and and the rich man is not a parable; it makes Christ's words a lie:
Matthew 13:34 ALL these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES;and without a PARABLE SPAKE HE NOT UNTO THEM.
Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest this parable unto us, or even to all?
The disciples walked with Jesus three and one half years and never understood a word he said; UNTIL he took them aside and explained the PARABLES to them. Today you can't understand the PARABLES; unless CHRIST IN YOU explains them to you. Ask and you shall receive.
Ezekiel 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a FIRE in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming FIRE shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Ezekiel 20:42 Then said I, Ah Lord God, Doeth he not speak in PARABLES?
Luke 12:49 I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be ALREADY KINDLED?
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptised with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished!
Matthew 3:11 ......he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost; and with FIRE.
John 10:6 Jesus spake this parable unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which he spoke to them.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming FIRE.
Please forgive me to reply to this but I feel to. I understand you don't believe in Hell, or eternal damnation, though I do and to me it seems it was a very important thing Christ taught. To Repent from sins/iniquity and follow Him down the straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. As He is the way.
The Lord taught not all are going down that path. Matthew 7:13-14. Here He states not everyone is to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 7:21. As He stated there shall be some to go away to everlasting punishment but the righteous to life eternal Matthew 25:31-46. Numerous parables of the wicked being separated from the just in the end Matthew 13:37-50.
Though if Luke 16:19-31, is a parable what it states is not hard to see. The man who suffered and begged died and was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man who lived lavishly and did not help Lazarus died and was in Hades in torment. Even though he begged for a touch of water He did not receive it. Just being told how Lazarus who suffered was now comforted and he was now in torment. Even when he begged that a message be sent to his family that they repent so they would not end up as he did. He was told that if they hear not Moses and the prophets, they would neither be persuaded by one raising from the dead.
I also don't understand how you think the "fire" of God that tries/chastens us and our works it the same as "eternal fire, torment and punishment".
Could you please explain some of these things? As I see it very dangerous to say a place of eternal damnation does not exist.
Have you ever looked into people who have died, came back to life, and actually experienced a place that is worse than we could imagine? Usually calling it hell and has converted many people to believing in Christ. What would you say to them?
I would never think to tell anyone hell is not real. What if it is and you were wrong? Making people think it doesn't matter what they do?
Thanks God Bless.
The Greek word for "torments" in Luke 16:23 is pronounced "basanos". If you type in "Strongs number G931" on google that will bring up links to this Greek word you can look over.
The definition can be of a "touchstone to test gold or silver". The rest of the definitions are "the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth, torture, torment, acute pains, of the pains of a disease, of those in hell after death".
It seems it is only used three times in the NT. Matthew 4:24, Luke 16:23, Luke 16:28.
God Bless.
Thank you for looking up the word "torments."
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and TORMENTS, and those that were possessed with devils, and those that were lunatick, and those that had the palsy, AND HE HEALED THEM.
Luke 16:23 And in hell (grave) he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of TORMENT.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting, O grave (hell), were is thy victory?
If I am not mistaken; the same Greek word is used in both Luke 16:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:55. Therefore; Christ, at his resurrection, had victory over both; DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) and HELL (hades).
I BELIEVE that both verse mean the grave. Death and the grave are the wages of sin.
Since Judah was the only one that had five brothers and the Pharisees claimed to be of the house of Judah. Jesus was telling the Pharisees the first will be last and the last will be first. They WOULD NOT be part of the first resurrection but would have to wait until the second resurrection. They would be in TORMENT(not having drank from the living water); but after the second resurrection they would be healed as described in Matthew 4:24.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED.....
There is two groups of people in God's Kingdom. The ones being called NOW; resurrected with Christ, will be the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD.
Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, SHALL BE GIVEN to the people of the saints (priest) of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM (being made one with Christ they will obey us also).
Those raised at the second resurrection are the ones under the authority of God's priest and judges.
Revelation 2:26-27
Psalms 2:8-10
Revelation 3:9
Psalms 149:9
I very much appreciate your time. As your reply lead me to do some reading about the "resurrections". Us in Christ being part of the first resurrection having no part in the lake of fire or "second death". Revelation 20:6.
As our Lord Jesus Christ being raised from the dead is our confirmation that there shall be a resurrection of our actual physical bodies. Acts 17:24-31.
In that the second resurrection is for all the people quoted in Revelation 21:8 as you stated. Those who are not with Christ.
As you have stated before "all shall worship God" with Scripture of it. As it is detailed in the Book of Enoch this is also correct though it shall not save them. From the second death or the lake of fire.
62.5 And one half of them will look at the other, and they will be terrified, and will cast down their faces, and pain will take hold of them when they see that Son of a woman sitting on the throne of His Glory.
62.6 And the mighty kings, and all those who possess the earth, will praise and bless and exalt Him who rules everything that is hidden.
62.7 For from the beginning that Son of Man was hidden, and the Most High kept Him in the presence of His power, and revealed Him only to the chosen.
62.9 And all the mighty kings, and the exalted, and those who rule the dry ground, will fall down before Him, on their faces, and worship; and they will set their hopes on that Son of Man, and will entreat Him, and will petition for mercy from Him.
62.10 But the Lord of Spirits will then so press them that they will hasten to go out from before Him, and their faces will be filled with shame, and the darkness will grow deeper on their faces.
Do you agree with these Scriptures?
As I also just want to be clear in what you believe the "second death" is. That this is where those souls/spirits will be separated from God, and us, for eternity? Or something else?
Thank you brother Earl.
I believe if there is a second death; there has to also be a first death.
Two resurrections; therefore, two deaths.
God is no respector of person; therefore, if the ones in second resurrection die (are judged) in the lake of fire; the ones in the first resurrection also die (are judged) in the lake of fire.
When Christ caused us to become one with him (CHRIST IN US) we we cast into (CHRIST) the lake of fire. To partake of the bread of life and the fountain of living water we also have to partake of the judgement of fire. As the bread and water gives us life, the fire cleanses and purifies us. We are being judged in the lake of fire (word of God) now; therefore, we want have our part in the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is APPOINTED unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:
We died with Christ on the Cross (first death). We are being judged IN CHRIST now, BY THE WORD, BY FIRE. Those appointed the second death will be judged IN CHRIST ( Hebrews 10:31), BY THE WORD, BY FIRE.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once for the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a SECOND TIME (NOW, to those in the first resurrection the second coming is NOW; we don't have to wait for the literal appearance of Christ) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.
For those in the second resurrection their judgement IN CHRIST is going to last awhile. Matthew says those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit want be saved in this age or the next age. This age so far has lasted 2000 years. We don't know how long the next age will last.
I believe those in the second resurrection will be raised back in bodies of flesh. The first resurrection, glorified bodies.
Revelation 20:7 ...Satan (flesh) will be loosed out of his prison (death and the grave),
1 Corinthians 15:40 celestial (glorified); terrestrial (flesh and blood)
Again I thank you for your replies. As it is our destiny to grow in the Spirit of Christ and see with His eyes.
As the ways of God are beyond what I could fathom. Truly my faith in God and Jesus Christ being, that whatever the way of the Lord is, I know it is the right way and I am His forever. Even if I don't understand. Keeping root in the Word with a pure heart and staying close to the Lord. He shall direct us down the straight and narrow path. His Will shall be done.
Weather we believe "hell" to be a place of eternal torment like stated in Matthew 25:46. Or as you explain. It is a place we do not want to go or have anything to do with. Christ stating in Matthew 10:28.
As we who are in Christ here are Blessed to have been chosen by Him to be His.
In 1 Corinthians 16:22 stating those who "love not the Lord"(not with the Lord) to basically let him be set aside for the coming Judgement of the Lord.
A couple about saving a soul. As we can only plant or water, it is God who gives the growth. James 5:19-20, Jude 1:23.
Again thank you for your time and posts brother. It means a lot.
God Bless you Earl. Have a wonderful day!
I DON'T BELIEVE the scriptures can contradict themselves.
There are hundreds of places in the scriptures that say ALL will worship GOD.
They can not worship God if they are in Hell.
In Ezekiel 5 and Zachariah 13 it says a third will be brought through the fire; Revelation 9:18 says a third are killed by fire, smoke and brimstone. These have to be the same third as in Ezekiel and Zachariah because verse 20 says the rest repented not. This same third is the ones in Revelation 8.
Revelation 19 The whole chapter is about the ones called to the marriage supper. Before we can come to the supper we have to be cleansed. We are cast into the lake of fire (vs 20). We have our flesh destroyed (vs 21). God is no respector of persons. Have we ever been fearful, unbelieving, liars. Revelation 21:8 says all these will have their part in the lake of fire. Did not Christ have victory over DEATH AND THE GRAVE Revelation 20:14 says DEATH AND THE GRAVE were destroyed by the lake of fire.
I BELIEVE ALL THINGS HAVE AN APPOINTED TIME
Ecclesiastes 3
I believe ALL things are by the will of God; good and bad. His will is always carried out by man; but THE WORKS ARE OF GOD. Therefore GOD will have mercy on ALL; but in HIS appointed TIME.
Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall CORRECT THEE ......
Jeremiah 46:28 ......but I will not make a full end of thee, but CORRECT THEE in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly UNPUNISHED.
Psalms 94:10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall he not CORRECT? ......
FOR MEDITATION: If the damned have a natural body at their resurrection; literal fire will kill them in a few seconds. If they are resurrected with a glorified body: literal fire can't hurt them.
SPIRITUAL FIRE CAN hurt both; natural and glorified.
I was raised in a baptist church; had numerous close relatives, great grandfathers, uncles and cousins that were and are baptist ministers. Until I was 70 years old I was died in the wool; pro free will, HELL and heaven taught. NONE would have convinced me to be otherwise. God turned my life upside down; or right side up. He shut every door. I live in the house I was born in. My grandparents lived there before my parents. The house is over 100 years old. The house was built before there was rural electricity or indoor plumbing. Over the years electricity and plumbing were added. These were added in the 30's and 40's. About the time I turned 70 the insurance company said they could no longer insure the house without the electrical being updated. I started rewiring the house; no sooner than I had the wiring tore out, a hail storm beat the shingles off the house. Then the cast iron plumbing rusted out allowing sewage to escape under the house. I was living on SS so couldn't fix everything. I had 3 light bulbs over my one chair, a bed and numerous pots and pans to catch leaking roof water and no indoor plumbing or hot water; but LOTS of time. All this the WORKS OF GOD. I would study the bible 18 hours a day seven days a week. God especially caused me to study the prophets and Revelation.
I did this about 5 years. I never read outside information or had other study material other than the KJB and the HOLY SPIRIT. About 10 months ago I started going to my daughter house to read the bible on line. My eyesight isn't so good and I don't like using the 3x reading glasses to see. I didn't know there was a forum like this to discuss the bible. At the end of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; Jesus said if they want believe the law and prophets they want believe one raised from the dead.
I change my mine because you want find any prophecies of free will, HELL or heaven; only a KINGDOM.
For meditation.
I am honored that you shared that history of your life with us. Thank you very much. It means a lot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I change my mine because you wont find any prophecies of free will, HELL or heaven; only a KINGDOM."
I think you are correct as the statement "free will" is not in the Bible directly. Though several verses that, I believe, point to this are: Joshua 24:15, John 7:17, Galatians 5:13, James 1:13-16. For a couple.
The word "hell" has taken over the Hebrew word "sheol" in the OT. Three Greek words "gehenna" "hades" and "tartarus" in the NT. All described as "bad" places simply.
For Heaven there are numerous as the one used the most in the NT, hundreds of times, is "ouranos". Strongs definition "the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness power: eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity)". In John 3:13, John 3:31. Kingdom used a lot together with this word as in Matthew 6:10, Matthew 18:3.
Thanks for your replies Earl.
God Bless.
HEAVEN
Flesh sees everything as natural. Heaven to natural eyes is out there somewhere. In Revelation where new Jerusalem is described; flesh sees this as a literal city with literal mansions and literal streets and literal trees and literal rivers. Bodies that have been glorified don't need houses or streets or walls or gates. We are the houses (mansions) of God, we are the streets of gold, we are the foundations of the city, we are NEW JERUSALEM. Revelation describes the foundation as twelve precious and costly stones. We are those (living) ( 1 Peter 2:4) stones that make up the city of new Jerusalem. We are the gates made of one pearl ( Psalms 23:9). Revelation represents something that is not LITERAL (which shall disappears)
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, SIGNIFIETH the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are MADE, that those things WHICH CANNOT BE SHAKEN REMAIN.
This is why you don't see prophecies of heaven; WE ARE HEAVEN, WHERE GOD DWELLS.
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven (you) shall be SHAKEN.
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the WICKED might be SHAKEN out of it?
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
We are the stars of heaven (God's promise to Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven)
The powers (of Satan that rules by natural flesh) in heaven (US) shall be SHAKEN (flesh will be destroyed and replaced by Spirit)
Revelation is all about the removing of the LITERAL and replacing with the SPIRIT.
A new heaven a new earth.
If were are judged by Christ, sanctified by Christ, justified by Christ, cleansed by Christ, saved by Christ and our God is a consuming fire; therefore we have our part in the lake of fire or the fire of the Lord.
Being one with Christ we also become the fire of the Lord. Those in the second resurrection are going to be judge by fire (us). They will be resurrected in TORMENTS not having living water.
Zachariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto (new) Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of host, even upon them SHALL BE NO RAIN (living water).
Amos 8:11 Behold the days comes, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of (natural) bread, nor a thirst for (natural) water, but of hearing the WORDS OF GOD (living bread and living water)
.
As we are the tabernacle of God where He dwells. Revelation 21:3. If I may ask one question. In Revelation 21:7-8. How God speaks of two "groups" of people. They that overcometh which are His. Then basically the wicked who have their part in the lake of fire. How do you perceive this?
As you stated Revelation not being "literal" (which shall disappear or pass away). I understand as those things being in the Spirit world and not of this physical world which is all vanity. The breadth of God. Job 34:14-15.
God Bless.
The lake of fire is the same thing; that, in the Old Testament was called the Fire of the Lord. Natural eyes see this as literal fire; but is it?
Judges 6:20 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, take the flesh and unleavened cakes (represents us) and lay them upon this rock (represents Christ), and pour out the broth And he did so.
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and unleavened cakes (US), and there rose up fire from OUT OF THE ROCK (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE), and consumed the flesh and unleavened cakes (US).
Zachariah 14:12 ......Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet....
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword (is the word of GOD, God is FIRE) of him upon the horse, which sword (WORD) proceeded out of his mouth; and all the fowls were filled with their (own) flesh.
To understand who the fowls are; we have to go to the parable of the sower of the seed.
Luke 8:5 A sower went out to so his seed; and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the FOWLS OF THE AIR devoured it.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are those that hear, then cometh the devil (fowls or the air)....
Luke 13:19 It (kingdom of heaven; Christ in you) is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air (devil) lodged therein.
John 15:5 I am the vine; ye are the branches (where the fowls lodge)...
Psalms 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the air have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out DEVILS by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God (CHRIST IN YOU) is come unto you.
I very much appreciate all you have shared with me Earl.
May our Father pour His Blessings upon you my brother.
I agree that the bible uses the word sleep or sleepeth as a term for death. It is the physical body that is put in the grave and the physical body lying there gives the appearance of a person sleeping. We know that Lazarus was dead for a few days and Jesus said he was sleeping. So yes, sleep does refer to death, physical death.
However, there is a living spirit/soul in everyone that departs the physical body upon death. The physical body goes into the grave but the soul departs immediately.
You mention that "The Bible clearly states that there will be those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire which is symbolic of total, complete, elimination, never to be seen again."
I say those who are cast into the Lake of Fire are those who were not part of the first resurrection. When you say elimination, do you mean the same as annihilation? My understanding is that those who are cast into the lake of fire will neither be eliminated nor annihilated, but will suffer for eternity.
I do believe that when a believer dies (Physical death) their soul immediately is in the presence of the Lord. You say that a person "does not go directly to Heaven or Hell, nor anywhere for that matter, but the grave? But then add that the grave is Hell." That sounds contradicting. If they don't go to Heaven or Hell, but you say the grave is Hell, where do they go?
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Where's the Lord? Jesus dying on the cross told the man on the cross next to Him that today you will be with me in paradise. That man died. Where did he go? Paradise doesn't sound much like Hell to me.
Your advice on reading the Holy Bible is great advice. It's how we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As far as a 501C3 preacher goes, I do not know what that is? I do know that there are some great pastors/bible teachers out there. But, as the Bereans did, we are to search the scriptures to see if those things line up!
So it's seeming that you know everything about after this life in your post? What would you say to all the people who have had NDE experiences and have been dead. Experiencing things like Jesus Christ, a Heavenly place, others who were deceased, a Hell like place of darkness, out of body experiences, etc? Miracles coming back to life. Some of these people being atheist and this is what converted them to the Lord. I have met one personally myself. Would you just call them all liars?
What would you say to me about all my experiences that most in this world, probably you as well, probably would not believe? After giving my life to Jesus Christ.
So you do not believe in the resurrection of Christ?
God makes the rules not men and no preacher taught me anything. The Holy Ghost is my teacher.
God Bless.
I was interpreting a natal horoscope to a Methodist (on Yom Kippur); when the Lord appeared in a vision! I was in shock with conviction. I got my 25lb tv Bible and started reading all verses about stars, astrology, the death penalty for doing those things. I confessed I deserve to die.
Then I saw a vision of hell in the floor. Dense, dark, twisting roots, screaming; vile, unclean, loathsome! I stood on a chair.
I sensed a Hand being held out to me, from the ceiling. I could not see it, but I was convinced it was there. I reached up and closed my fingers.
I fell into the floor but hell had disappeared. I was delivered from who knows how many demons. If you serve satan knowingly or even unknowingly, you are in-dwelt and oppressed. I passed out.
I woke up, day 1 with the Holy Spirit. Everything looked the same, but I knew it was different. I cleaned "house" all day of everything occult. I filled a 35 gallon trash can with occult books, encyclopedic, planet and star charts.
I dragged it all into the garage. I didn't know I needed a witness. 2 days later the Methodist came back. I told what happened: I was saved. We rejoiced. I drag the stuff out to the patio; with charcoal lighter and matches. It was a metal can, I lit it up. No one called the fire dept on me.
ACTS 19:19. The Holy Spirit was helping me walk out the New Birth. Earlier that day I poured out booze, flushed lots of pills I was sorta planning my suicide with, pot, cigarettes.
Next day I sat on the sofa waiting for the DT's to kill me. Got sleepy went to bed. Next day, same thing. Third evening I realized I had been delivered from detox and withdrawal. Talk about joy and happiness!! I was going to live and declare the Greatness of Jesus Christ all the days of my remaining life.
And here I am, born again, blood washed, over-coming child of the Most High God. Holy Spirit filled and educated. Choose Jesus Today.
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