That is commendable but, ironically, look at what James tells us:
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Jas 2:19
"and try to live right."
And that is also something you ought to do but look at what Paul tells us:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:3-5
We are ALL sinners:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23
We are ALL under God's condemnation unless we believe ON/IN Jesus:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth ON HIM is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed IN the name of the only begotten Son of God."Joh 3:16-18
So what's the difference between believing THAT there is a God or believing IN God? One is just acknowledging that there is a God. Believing IN God is putting your trust in God. The Scripture tells us that God love us so much that He, God The Father, sent His Son, Jesus, God in the flesh, to earth in order to die in our place, to take the punishment for our sins.
"For He (God) hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God IN Him." 2Co 5:21
You really ought to find a good church that teaches The Bible. We need to assemble with other believers. None of us are perfect. You're not and I'm not. So don't swallow the lie that there are hypocrites at church, so you shouldn't go!
What you said was very good; I wish I had said that. but you might want to add how to be saved in detail. If you believe Paul's Gospel to the Gentile during the Age of Grace, which is : For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: You are born again the second you believe it.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom 10:9-10
Paul, writing the the church at Corinth in about 55, records how he had DELIVERED to them what he had RECEIVED: received many years earlier when he had visited Peter and James in Jerusalem some 3 years after his Damascus Road conversion.
"Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." Gal 1:18-19
There and then, it is believed, that when this creed was RECEIVED by Paul (DELIVERED and RECEIVED are words used to convey teaching):
That Christ died for our sins
According to the scriptures;
And that he was buried,
And that he rose again the third day
According to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas,
Then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James;
Then of all the apostles.
Paul used similar language earlier in 1 Cor:
"For I have RECEIVED of the Lord that which also I DELIVERED unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:" 1Co 11:23
And he repeats words that The Lord said.
So it is very likely that early Christians repeated this creed months after The Resurrection as an encapsulation of The Gospel. See Gary Habermas, Liberty U for more.
Skip Vought, You said this: Paul, writing the the church at Corinth in about 55, records how he had DELIVERED to them what he had RECEIVED: received many years earlier when he had visited Peter and James in Jerusalem some 3 years after his Damascus Road conversion.
Paul disagrees with you, Read this: Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus gave Paul the exact word of the Gospel that he preached to the Gentiles.
The amount of time between the death of Jesus, and His subsequent appearance to Paul would be 8 or 9 years around 36 or 37A.D.). so Paul would have been in his early 30's when Jesus appeared to him, and he became a Christian.
Galatians 1:18-19 "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." Galatians 2:1-2 "Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain." So, 8 years plus 3 years plus 14 years, would be 25 year after the resurrection of Jesus that Paul had the big Bible conference in Jerusalem with all the Apostles when he told the other Apostles of the Gospel that he was preaching to the Gentiles. The 12 Apostles had been preaching a different Gospel for 25 years. They never preached "how that Christ died for sins" Not once. Although the Gospel that the 12 Apostles preached to the Jews are found in about a half-a-dozen scriptures, they are basically all the same. John's Gospel is perhaps the clearest and best one. John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son
Just to expand on the year "around 55 AD" when Paul writing the epistle to Corinth. Also you stating that the time between the Death of Jesus and His appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus being 8-9 years or 36-37 AD. I have never heard of that number. So you have learned the death of Jesus to be around 25-26 AD? I have learned that the Lord appeared to Paul sometime around 2-3 years after His death.
As also hearing lectures from Dr Gary Habermas who expands on this timeline. Which agree with several other sites of the chronological studies of that time. As I'll just leave a simple timeline and some verses of "around" times. As no one knows the exact year of the death of Jesus Christ I will be using the year 30 AD as most like to use.
30 AD Death of Jesus Christ.
32-33 AD The Lord appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus Acts 9:1-20.
35-36 AD After three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter Galatians 1:18.
49-50 AD Then 14 years after I went up again to Jerusalem Galatians 2:1.
50-51 AD Paul arrives at Corinth
51-52 AD Paul was in Corinth 1.5 years and brought before Gallieo Acts 18:11-12.
54-55 AD Paul is in Ephesus, staying there 2-3 years, which is where some believe he wrote the epistle to Corinth.
As there was a first letter, or "previous letter", written to Corinth, from Paul, which is no longer extant. Paul noting he wrote them and epistle previously in ( 1 Corinthians 5:9.
With all of these dates I'm sure they can be moved around a little as all being "about". Things we know of are the reign of Gallio to be of 51-52 AD. Which has been inscribed in stone.
Skip also did quote ( 1 Corinthians 11:23. Stating that Paul did "receive of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you". Which I'm sure Skip knows. In Galatians 1:13 the word "see" is the Greek word G2477. Meaning "to find out, learn by inquiry" or "to gain knowledge of by visiting".
Just to give some friendly information. God Bless.
Yes, it's hard to come up with the exact dates; point is: Paul received the Gospel direct from Jesus, and told the 12 Disciples some years later, at least 14 years, for the Jerusalem meeting where he told them about the Gospel that he preached to the Gentiles. They all preach the death, burial, and the resurrection; but Paul preached something extra; "How that Christ died for our sins" none of the rest ever preached that until later when they wrote their books.
Really the question I have is how do you know the original disciples/apostles of Jesus Christ didn't teach that the Lord "died" for our sins? As I myself got a little confused, with Paul's trip to Jerusalem between Acts and Galatians, because the Scriptures doesn't always have every single detail.
We can say that Paul met with Peter and James around 36 AD. I'm sure they had an amazing time talking about all types of things relating to the Lord and the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Paul states "according to the Scriptures". Which are probably Isaiah 53 and Jonah 1:17. Which Jesus states in Matthew 12:40 that He shall be three days and nights in the heart of the earth. Which His original disciples/apostles experienced this first hand. Which Paul did not. In 1 Peter 2:24 it states how Jesus died for our sins. Which was maybe written around the early 60's AD? Around the same time as Acts was written? So one epistle, not Paul's writing, has it the other doesn't.
Along with Paul meeting with the other apostles less than a decade after the death of Jesus. Then the second time around 50 AD before all written Gospels. I can't see Paul knowing more or preaching more than the other apostles, who lived with the Lord, in that Jesus Christ "died" for our sins.
As I would say that there are many details but One Gospel.
Your question: Really the question I have is how do you know the original
disciples/apostles of Jesus Christ didn't teach that the Lord "died"
for our sins? Answer: Because I have a King James Bible that tells what they preached; we can guess what they might have talked about that wasn't written in the scriptures all day, but that would just be wasting time. I have a question for you: what Gospel did you believe to be saved? I was saved by believing the Gospel that Jesus sent Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" Let us compare what you believed to be saved, with what I believed to be saved.
I most enjoy having a personal discussion with another brother in Christ. As I also have a KJV Bible that I study the Word from. I don't see that what we are discussing as wasting time. No one person knows exactly how everything went at these times as I'm sure you know. Thank God we have the Gospels that were written. Although it is still limiting to everything that happened in detail. Though it is more than enough to save us. As John 21:25 states that "if everything which Jesus did were written even the world itself could not contain the books". Maybe looking at the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Some things are contained almost exact in one to another, some things differ a bit but you can tell it is of the same event, then there are some things that are unique to each book and are not in one another. I would hope that someone would not just pick one, say Matthew because it was the earliest, and say "this is the one I believe." We should read all of them and put them all together and we still only have a fraction of the Lord's journey.
To answer your question of: What Gospel did you believe to be saved? It was when I was reading the book of John. Very early of me reading the NT as I hadn't read it fully from the beginning yet as I was jumping around. What spoke to my heart was reading of Jesus giving His disciples the new commandment of "love one another" in John 13:34. Also in John 15. When I read this is when I knew Jesus Christ was the truth and from God. Through my whole life feeling, in my heart, that love is what really matters. Reading this was just amazing to me and almost like what I had always wanted to hear. This is when I gave myself to the Lord. Praise be to our Father and Jesus Christ for everything I/we have been led to.
Thank you for sharing what spoke to you, from the Holy Bible, that saved you.
We were conversing about mainly how you perceive that Paul preached a "different" Gospel or something extra that the other apostles didn't have. That Jesus "died" for our sins. In a previous post I stated how ( 1 Peter 2:24 has "Jesus bared our sins in his own body on the tree". Basically stating he "died" for our sins. Which the apostle Peter wrote this epistle first hand, at around the same time, to be fair, some may say earlier, than the Book of Acts. Showing that one book had this "teaching", from Peter, and the other didn't. So there is no way to say Peter or any of the original apostles of Christ did not teach this also. To state only Paul did.
Then you asked a question of what Gospel I was saved by.
Is this not what we were conversing about? My apologies if I am wrong.
Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, (Peter nor any other Disciple taught the Gospel to Paul)but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus told Paul what to Preach to the Gentiles. On the other hand, Paul taught the Gospel which he preached to the Gentiles to the 12 Apostles, including Peter. Galatians 2:1-2 "Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain." And it was at least 14 years after the resurrection. THERE YOU HAVE THE SCRIPTURE, NOT MY WORD BUT GOD'S WORD.
This is getting interesting from what I'm finding in the Scriptures. As I agree Paul received the Gospel from the Lord in revelation. As the original disciples/apostles of the Lord were first hand witnesses and lived with the Lord.
So it seems, I believe this is mostly Peter in these verses, that the Gospel he preached was also for the remission, forgiveness, of sins and our salvation through Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Acts 4:12
Acts 5:31
Acts 10:43-44
Maybe the point you are trying to make is that he(other apostles) did not exactly say it was that He "died" for our sins? As I can't really be sure of that as the early preaching in Acts, that I posted, was only of Peter. There also being ten other original apostles preaching around. It could be though.
This is interesting what I came across. In Acts 9:26-27. As this seems to be not long after Paul's conversion. After his first preaching of the Lord in Damascus. Being saved by other disciples of the Lord ending up in Jerusalem. Then in verse 27 Barnabus took him to the other apostles. As I can't be positive but I don't think Peter was there at this time as a couple verses later it states he was in other places.
This does not seem to be the same trip to Jerusalem as Paul spake of in Galatians 1:18. As in Galatians 1:19 he states "of the other apostles I saw none". Interesting how in Galatians 1:17 stated that he didn't go to Jerusalem after he was saved or converted. Lots of stuff going on.
So, taking a little more time and looking into Acts 9:26-27 and Galatians 1:17-18 it does seem to be the same experience. It just got a little confusing as it goes directly from Paul preaching first in Damascus and getting let down in a basket by the disciples to save him, not saying he went to Arabia or three years passing, then saying he came to Jerusalem in the next verse in Acts 9:25-27.
This does seem to be where he only saw Peter and James, only noted as apostles in Acts 9:27, as Barnabas took him to them. A little detail we don't get in Galatians.
I believe there is only one way, one Gospel but preached in many different ways:
When Paul says according to the Scriptures, "OLD TESTAMENT"
We see THE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM-
Galatians 3:8-9. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. ( Jews and Gentiles)
HERE IS JOHN THE BAPTIST PLAYING A ROLE IN THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE GOSPEL.
John 1:29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which taketh away the sin of the ""WORLD."" (Jews and Gentiles)
THOSE LAMB SACRIFICES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SPOKE OF CHRIST DEATH FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.
NOTICE PETER PUTTING NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TEACHING TO JEWS AND GENTILES HERE IN ACTS. pay attention to the highlighted sentences.
Acts 15:7-11. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
"""AND PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM,""" purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ """WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY."""
When the Apostles was baptizing "ritually" putting all believers (Jews and Gentiles) in one body speaks of Identifying us with his DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
They all preached the cross and resurrection in different ways throughout the scriptures. But the same narrow way.
I agree, all had to believe, but the Jews had to believe John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." and the Gentiles had to believe 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
But you'll have to agree nothing beats Bible study for having fun!
Paul, who you claim, preaches a different gospel than the apostles, made it a practice to preach in synagogues in the cities he enters.
"And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the JEWS and also of the GREEKS believed." Act 14:1
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the JEWS and the GREEKS." Act 18:4
"And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both JEWS and GREEKS." Act 19:10
"Testifying both to the JEWS, and also to the GREEKS, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Act 20:21
Neither Jew nor Greek...
"There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
"Where there is neither GREEK nor JEW, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col 3:11
"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
Sorry, there's ONE Gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8
I strongly doubt that Paul believed that Peter et al were ACCURSED.
If you read carefully, the death, burial and resurrection ARE in the apostles teaching. I think the difference is in signs and wonders and in emphasis on OT fulfillment. Jesus needed Paul, with a PhD in The Gospel.
Appreciate your fervor and Biblical integrity, Charles. I FONDLY remember lunchtime debates I've had with other brothers who believed The Gospel but differed in other areas. Iron sharpen iron. Thank our Lord for His unfathomable mercy and grace!
: 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:". Those two Gospels are not even close. I needed three post to get all in. Can you Post the Gospel in detail that you use.
"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope
of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father
of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
ANSWER: Yes, there is one body, a Jew Gentile body; the Body of Christ.
One faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one real baptism. There are seven baptisms in the New Testament, but only one real baptism, and that is not a water baptism. And there are ten Gospels in the New Testament, but only one saving Gospel during the age of Grace.
Sorry, there's ONE Gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed." Gal 1:8. There is an Angel in the book of revelation, that preaches the everlasting Gospel, but he won't be accursed because it is a different dispensation. And during the Great Tribulation the Gospel of Peace is preached but no one is accursed, because it is a different dispensation.
I strongly doubt that Paul believed that Peter et al were ACCURSED. ABSOLUTELY NOT!
If you read carefully, the death, burial and resurrection ARE in the
apostles teaching. I think the difference is in signs and wonders and
in emphasis on OT fulfillment. Jesus needed Paul, with a PhD in The
Gospel. ANSWER: The death burial and resurrection is in all the Apostle's Gospels, only Paul has a little more that the rest don't have "how that Christ died for our sins". Here is the Gospel that the Here is the Gospel that most preachers preach today: Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Compare that Gospel with Paul's Gospel: NEXT POST:
Paul, who you claim, preaches a different gospel than the apostles,
made it a practice to preach in synagogues in the cities he enters.
"And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into
the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both
of the JEWS and also of the GREEKS believed." Act 14:1
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the
JEWS and the GREEKS." Act 18:4
"And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which
dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both JEWS and
GREEKS." Act 19:10
"Testifying both to the JEWS, and also to the GREEKS, repentance
toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Act 20:21
ANSWER: Yes Paul preached to both Jews and Gentile. That what the Lord Jesus Christ told him to do. Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Neither Jew nor Greek... ANSWER: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Notice that the verse didn't say what they believed, but only that both had the same Lord.
"There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus." Gal 3:28
"Where there is neither GREEK nor JEW, circumcision nor
uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all." Col 3:11. ANSWER; Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." MORE: Galatians 2:7-8 "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)" NEXT POST:
My point is, there are two different Gospels; one for the Jews, and one for the Gentiles. John 1:11-12 "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:", John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.", Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.", and 1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.". Those five Gospels are basically the same Gospel for the Jews. The twelve Disciples were commanded by Jesus, NOT to go to the Gentiles in Matthew chapter ten. The one exception was Peter was given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, (not the Kingdom of God) for the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews, and given to the Gentiles in Matthew Chapter 21:43. The reason the Jews had to admit that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, was because "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. " But as many Jews, that received him were saved; and about 3,000 were saved at Pentecost. Paul's Gospel is Different
read 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 verses 1 through 4. If you believe verse three and four, you will be born again, the second you believe it. This is the verses: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
what does it mean to be saved
I believe in God and Jesus and try to live right, I don't go to church, haven't been baptized, does this mean I wont go to heaven
You stated, "I believe in God and Jesus"
That is commendable but, ironically, look at what James tells us:
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Jas 2:19
"and try to live right."
And that is also something you ought to do but look at what Paul tells us:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:3-5
We are ALL sinners:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23
We are ALL under God's condemnation unless we believe ON/IN Jesus:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth ON HIM is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed IN the name of the only begotten Son of God."Joh 3:16-18
So what's the difference between believing THAT there is a God or believing IN God? One is just acknowledging that there is a God. Believing IN God is putting your trust in God. The Scripture tells us that God love us so much that He, God The Father, sent His Son, Jesus, God in the flesh, to earth in order to die in our place, to take the punishment for our sins.
"For He (God) hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God IN Him." 2Co 5:21
You really ought to find a good church that teaches The Bible. We need to assemble with other believers. None of us are perfect. You're not and I'm not. So don't swallow the lie that there are hypocrites at church, so you shouldn't go!
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: You are born again the second you believe it.
Paul, writing the the church at Corinth in about 55, records how he had DELIVERED to them what he had RECEIVED: received many years earlier when he had visited Peter and James in Jerusalem some 3 years after his Damascus Road conversion.
"Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." Gal 1:18-19
There and then, it is believed, that when this creed was RECEIVED by Paul (DELIVERED and RECEIVED are words used to convey teaching):
That Christ died for our sins
According to the scriptures;
And that he was buried,
And that he rose again the third day
According to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas,
Then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James;
Then of all the apostles.
Paul used similar language earlier in 1 Cor:
"For I have RECEIVED of the Lord that which also I DELIVERED unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:" 1Co 11:23
And he repeats words that The Lord said.
So it is very likely that early Christians repeated this creed months after The Resurrection as an encapsulation of The Gospel. See Gary Habermas, Liberty U for more.
Paul disagrees with you, Read this: Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus gave Paul the exact word of the Gospel that he preached to the Gentiles.
The amount of time between the death of Jesus, and His subsequent appearance to Paul would be 8 or 9 years around 36 or 37A.D.). so Paul would have been in his early 30's when Jesus appeared to him, and he became a Christian.
Galatians 1:18-19 "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." Galatians 2:1-2 "Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain." So, 8 years plus 3 years plus 14 years, would be 25 year after the resurrection of Jesus that Paul had the big Bible conference in Jerusalem with all the Apostles when he told the other Apostles of the Gospel that he was preaching to the Gentiles. The 12 Apostles had been preaching a different Gospel for 25 years. They never preached "how that Christ died for sins" Not once. Although the Gospel that the 12 Apostles preached to the Jews are found in about a half-a-dozen scriptures, they are basically all the same. John's Gospel is perhaps the clearest and best one. John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son
Just to expand on the year "around 55 AD" when Paul writing the epistle to Corinth. Also you stating that the time between the Death of Jesus and His appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus being 8-9 years or 36-37 AD. I have never heard of that number. So you have learned the death of Jesus to be around 25-26 AD? I have learned that the Lord appeared to Paul sometime around 2-3 years after His death.
As also hearing lectures from Dr Gary Habermas who expands on this timeline. Which agree with several other sites of the chronological studies of that time. As I'll just leave a simple timeline and some verses of "around" times. As no one knows the exact year of the death of Jesus Christ I will be using the year 30 AD as most like to use.
30 AD Death of Jesus Christ.
32-33 AD The Lord appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus Acts 9:1-20.
35-36 AD After three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter Galatians 1:18.
49-50 AD Then 14 years after I went up again to Jerusalem Galatians 2:1.
50-51 AD Paul arrives at Corinth
51-52 AD Paul was in Corinth 1.5 years and brought before Gallieo Acts 18:11-12.
54-55 AD Paul is in Ephesus, staying there 2-3 years, which is where some believe he wrote the epistle to Corinth.
As there was a first letter, or "previous letter", written to Corinth, from Paul, which is no longer extant. Paul noting he wrote them and epistle previously in ( 1 Corinthians 5:9.
With all of these dates I'm sure they can be moved around a little as all being "about". Things we know of are the reign of Gallio to be of 51-52 AD. Which has been inscribed in stone.
Skip also did quote ( 1 Corinthians 11:23. Stating that Paul did "receive of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you". Which I'm sure Skip knows. In Galatians 1:13 the word "see" is the Greek word G2477. Meaning "to find out, learn by inquiry" or "to gain knowledge of by visiting".
Just to give some friendly information. God Bless.
Really the question I have is how do you know the original disciples/apostles of Jesus Christ didn't teach that the Lord "died" for our sins? As I myself got a little confused, with Paul's trip to Jerusalem between Acts and Galatians, because the Scriptures doesn't always have every single detail.
We can say that Paul met with Peter and James around 36 AD. I'm sure they had an amazing time talking about all types of things relating to the Lord and the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Paul states "according to the Scriptures". Which are probably Isaiah 53 and Jonah 1:17. Which Jesus states in Matthew 12:40 that He shall be three days and nights in the heart of the earth. Which His original disciples/apostles experienced this first hand. Which Paul did not. In 1 Peter 2:24 it states how Jesus died for our sins. Which was maybe written around the early 60's AD? Around the same time as Acts was written? So one epistle, not Paul's writing, has it the other doesn't.
Along with Paul meeting with the other apostles less than a decade after the death of Jesus. Then the second time around 50 AD before all written Gospels. I can't see Paul knowing more or preaching more than the other apostles, who lived with the Lord, in that Jesus Christ "died" for our sins.
As I would say that there are many details but One Gospel.
God Bless.
disciples/apostles of Jesus Christ didn't teach that the Lord "died"
for our sins? Answer: Because I have a King James Bible that tells what they preached; we can guess what they might have talked about that wasn't written in the scriptures all day, but that would just be wasting time. I have a question for you: what Gospel did you believe to be saved? I was saved by believing the Gospel that Jesus sent Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" Let us compare what you believed to be saved, with what I believed to be saved.
I most enjoy having a personal discussion with another brother in Christ. As I also have a KJV Bible that I study the Word from. I don't see that what we are discussing as wasting time. No one person knows exactly how everything went at these times as I'm sure you know. Thank God we have the Gospels that were written. Although it is still limiting to everything that happened in detail. Though it is more than enough to save us. As John 21:25 states that "if everything which Jesus did were written even the world itself could not contain the books". Maybe looking at the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Some things are contained almost exact in one to another, some things differ a bit but you can tell it is of the same event, then there are some things that are unique to each book and are not in one another. I would hope that someone would not just pick one, say Matthew because it was the earliest, and say "this is the one I believe." We should read all of them and put them all together and we still only have a fraction of the Lord's journey.
To answer your question of: What Gospel did you believe to be saved? It was when I was reading the book of John. Very early of me reading the NT as I hadn't read it fully from the beginning yet as I was jumping around. What spoke to my heart was reading of Jesus giving His disciples the new commandment of "love one another" in John 13:34. Also in John 15. When I read this is when I knew Jesus Christ was the truth and from God. Through my whole life feeling, in my heart, that love is what really matters. Reading this was just amazing to me and almost like what I had always wanted to hear. This is when I gave myself to the Lord. Praise be to our Father and Jesus Christ for everything I/we have been led to.
Thank you for sharing what spoke to you, from the Holy Bible, that saved you.
We were conversing about mainly how you perceive that Paul preached a "different" Gospel or something extra that the other apostles didn't have. That Jesus "died" for our sins. In a previous post I stated how ( 1 Peter 2:24 has "Jesus bared our sins in his own body on the tree". Basically stating he "died" for our sins. Which the apostle Peter wrote this epistle first hand, at around the same time, to be fair, some may say earlier, than the Book of Acts. Showing that one book had this "teaching", from Peter, and the other didn't. So there is no way to say Peter or any of the original apostles of Christ did not teach this also. To state only Paul did.
Then you asked a question of what Gospel I was saved by.
Is this not what we were conversing about? My apologies if I am wrong.
Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, (Peter nor any other Disciple taught the Gospel to Paul)but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus told Paul what to Preach to the Gentiles. On the other hand, Paul taught the Gospel which he preached to the Gentiles to the 12 Apostles, including Peter. Galatians 2:1-2 "Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain." And it was at least 14 years after the resurrection. THERE YOU HAVE THE SCRIPTURE, NOT MY WORD BUT GOD'S WORD.
This is getting interesting from what I'm finding in the Scriptures. As I agree Paul received the Gospel from the Lord in revelation. As the original disciples/apostles of the Lord were first hand witnesses and lived with the Lord.
So it seems, I believe this is mostly Peter in these verses, that the Gospel he preached was also for the remission, forgiveness, of sins and our salvation through Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Acts 4:12
Acts 5:31
Acts 10:43-44
Maybe the point you are trying to make is that he(other apostles) did not exactly say it was that He "died" for our sins? As I can't really be sure of that as the early preaching in Acts, that I posted, was only of Peter. There also being ten other original apostles preaching around. It could be though.
This is interesting what I came across. In Acts 9:26-27. As this seems to be not long after Paul's conversion. After his first preaching of the Lord in Damascus. Being saved by other disciples of the Lord ending up in Jerusalem. Then in verse 27 Barnabus took him to the other apostles. As I can't be positive but I don't think Peter was there at this time as a couple verses later it states he was in other places.
This does not seem to be the same trip to Jerusalem as Paul spake of in Galatians 1:18. As in Galatians 1:19 he states "of the other apostles I saw none". Interesting how in Galatians 1:17 stated that he didn't go to Jerusalem after he was saved or converted. Lots of stuff going on.
God Bless.
This does seem to be where he only saw Peter and James, only noted as apostles in Acts 9:27, as Barnabas took him to them. A little detail we don't get in Galatians.
When Paul says according to the Scriptures, "OLD TESTAMENT"
We see THE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM-
Galatians 3:8-9. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. ( Jews and Gentiles)
HERE IS JOHN THE BAPTIST PLAYING A ROLE IN THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE GOSPEL.
John 1:29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which taketh away the sin of the ""WORLD."" (Jews and Gentiles)
THOSE LAMB SACRIFICES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SPOKE OF CHRIST DEATH FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.
NOTICE PETER PUTTING NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TEACHING TO JEWS AND GENTILES HERE IN ACTS. pay attention to the highlighted sentences.
Acts 15:7-11. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
"""AND PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM,""" purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ """WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY."""
When the Apostles was baptizing "ritually" putting all believers (Jews and Gentiles) in one body speaks of Identifying us with his DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
They all preached the cross and resurrection in different ways throughout the scriptures. But the same narrow way.
But you'll have to agree nothing beats Bible study for having fun!
Paul, who you claim, preaches a different gospel than the apostles, made it a practice to preach in synagogues in the cities he enters.
"And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the JEWS and also of the GREEKS believed." Act 14:1
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the JEWS and the GREEKS." Act 18:4
"And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both JEWS and GREEKS." Act 19:10
"Testifying both to the JEWS, and also to the GREEKS, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Act 20:21
Neither Jew nor Greek...
"There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
"Where there is neither GREEK nor JEW, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col 3:11
"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
Sorry, there's ONE Gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8
I strongly doubt that Paul believed that Peter et al were ACCURSED.
If you read carefully, the death, burial and resurrection ARE in the apostles teaching. I think the difference is in signs and wonders and in emphasis on OT fulfillment. Jesus needed Paul, with a PhD in The Gospel.
Appreciate your fervor and Biblical integrity, Charles. I FONDLY remember lunchtime debates I've had with other brothers who believed The Gospel but differed in other areas. Iron sharpen iron. Thank our Lord for His unfathomable mercy and grace!
of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father
of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
ANSWER: Yes, there is one body, a Jew Gentile body; the Body of Christ.
One faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one real baptism. There are seven baptisms in the New Testament, but only one real baptism, and that is not a water baptism. And there are ten Gospels in the New Testament, but only one saving Gospel during the age of Grace.
Sorry, there's ONE Gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed." Gal 1:8. There is an Angel in the book of revelation, that preaches the everlasting Gospel, but he won't be accursed because it is a different dispensation. And during the Great Tribulation the Gospel of Peace is preached but no one is accursed, because it is a different dispensation.
I strongly doubt that Paul believed that Peter et al were ACCURSED. ABSOLUTELY NOT!
If you read carefully, the death, burial and resurrection ARE in the
apostles teaching. I think the difference is in signs and wonders and
in emphasis on OT fulfillment. Jesus needed Paul, with a PhD in The
Gospel. ANSWER: The death burial and resurrection is in all the Apostle's Gospels, only Paul has a little more that the rest don't have "how that Christ died for our sins". Here is the Gospel that the Here is the Gospel that most preachers preach today: Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Compare that Gospel with Paul's Gospel: NEXT POST:
Charles,
Paul, who you claim, preaches a different gospel than the apostles,
made it a practice to preach in synagogues in the cities he enters.
"And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into
the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both
of the JEWS and also of the GREEKS believed." Act 14:1
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the
JEWS and the GREEKS." Act 18:4
"And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which
dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both JEWS and
GREEKS." Act 19:10
"Testifying both to the JEWS, and also to the GREEKS, repentance
toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Act 20:21
ANSWER: Yes Paul preached to both Jews and Gentile. That what the Lord Jesus Christ told him to do. Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Neither Jew nor Greek... ANSWER: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Notice that the verse didn't say what they believed, but only that both had the same Lord.
"There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus." Gal 3:28
"Where there is neither GREEK nor JEW, circumcision nor
uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all." Col 3:11. ANSWER; Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." MORE: Galatians 2:7-8 "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)" NEXT POST:
I'm going to have to look into this deeper. You have provoked my thinking to do a more careful search of The Scriptures.
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.", Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.", and 1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.". Those five Gospels are basically the same Gospel for the Jews. The twelve Disciples were commanded by Jesus, NOT to go to the Gentiles in Matthew chapter ten. The one exception was Peter was given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, (not the Kingdom of God) for the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews, and given to the Gentiles in Matthew Chapter 21:43. The reason the Jews had to admit that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, was because "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. " But as many Jews, that received him were saved; and about 3,000 were saved at Pentecost. Paul's Gospel is Different
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