First of all, the rapture is taught in the Bible; it is just a matter of semantics. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says concerning the rapture: Then we who are living and remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds for a meeting of the Lord in the air.
The phrase shall be caught up is translated from the Greek word HARPADZO, which means to be caught up, to be snatched, to be seized. The Latin translation of the same Greek word is RAPTUS, which is where we get the word rapture from. So whether you call it the rapture, or the HARPADZO, or say shall be caught up, it is all talking about the same thing.
First the Rapture is NOT taught in the King James Bible. Maybe you can pull it from some modern day re-worded Bibles that were published to appease modern day agendas. The very idea that Gods finest will not be here during Satan's tribulation is appalling. There is scripture after scripture that demonstrates God's elect will be HERE on EARTH during this period. When someone shows me a verse that says even close to " And my children will be taken to heaven BEFORE the sounding of the 6 trumpet as not to endure the anti-christs wrath" I'll start to consider the imagined rapture theory. As of now it is ONLY supported a verse here and a verse there that directly says nothing about Christians leaving this earth before Satan's return and ALWAYS IGNORES the subject being discussed in EVERY case.
If the 7-year tribulation takes place during our lifetime, I want to wish you luck. I don't plan on being here. The King James is my bible of choice. And yes, I agree that there are verses that speak of the elect being here during this time frame. But we are not the elect. The term elect is a term that specifically applies to the Jews. They are God's elect. So yes, there will be the elect here during this time frame.
There will be 144,000 Jews who will be protected by God so that no harm will come upon them. Let me ask you this. Let's say that this happens in our lifetime. What will your role be during this horrific time on this earth? How will you survive the events that will take place during that time? I know the 144,000 Jews will be protected, and they are told to flee during the last 3-1/2 years which will be so horrendous that only a few will survive. That's why God says for the elect's sake (The 144,000), those days will be shortened.
How will you get through it? Can you please share with me scriptural evidence from Revelation Chapters 4 through Chapter 19 that talks about the church's role during this time? And in Revelation Chapter 19, who is at this wedding feast, and who are these people who are described as being clothed in white garments? And who are these armies that come back with Christ as His second coming clothed in white garments, the garments of a bride?
I do respect your view. I just need proof from those Chapters in Revelation that show me that I will be here and what my role will be. It won't be to spread the gospel message and evangelize because God already has that covered. I respect your view, even though I disagree. I don't get angry at anyone who believes we (The Church) will have to go through the entire tribulation period. It doesn't bother me at all. What I don't understand is why it bothers people so much that I, along with many others believe we will not go through this horrendous time.
Brother please think about this. Our Lord Jesus have twelve disciples whom later known as epistles. Except one, St John all other disciples are killed by enemies of Lord. We are not above epistles. John 15:20 - Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you : if they have kept my saying they will keep yours also. Also Moses redeemed Israel through the plagues. Noah and family saved through the floods. Nowadays we believers are going through great tribulations.
BABIES AND CHILDREN at the Time Of The Rapture - In Reply on 1 Kings 20 - 4 years ago
Comment: clearly Jesus loves babies & little children and disabled in comprehension.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew Chapter 18
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.
So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.
Comment: Jesus is going to take the little ones in the Rapture. He'll not leave them here to be used as bait for Antichrist's Mark of the Beast.
If you LOVE your kids; infants & older, everyone pray now to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord! Decide NOW. In the blink of an eye, is all we've got to make that decision. Put your most holy trust in Jesus.
I agree with you, the phrase from ( 2Thessalonians 4:17) "shall (will) be caught up" is a translation of the Greek word "harpazo" (#726). The word "harpazo" is a derivative of the Greek word "haireomai" (#138) which is defined as to take for oneself, or to prefer; i.e., to choose.
You may have misunderstood what I said. As far as the KJV goes, the word "rapture" is not found. In fact, I am not aware of a Bible that does use the word. For the sake of all levels of Bible students, we should try to use Bible words whenever possible: Words that can be looked up in Bible Dictionaries.
Sadly, the word "rapture" is more than just semantics. It has become known as the "rapture doctrine."
We don't fly into the air in these flesh bodies to meet the Lord and Savior; we will spiritually all be changed BEFORE this particular meeting will take place ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The point of the initial statement was that this meeting between the Lord and His "chosen" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13) will happen at the 7th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial; and not any time before.
You don't want to be the first one taken! ( Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36)
So, could it well be that the Last Trump mentioned by Paul was because of his knowledge of the trumpet sounds & timings of the Old & not the Revelation Trumps? The occasions of those trumpet sounds were numerous ( Num 10:1-10): whether for calling the assembly together, commencement of their journeyings, for war, & during their solemn feasts. Then this thought develops: Numbers chapter 2 identifies how the tribes were to encamp, till verse 34, when they also went forward just as they had pitched. So this forward movement with the trumpet call aligns with Num 10:1-6. And in this 'call to march', the last (final) trump would have been sounded for the last of the tribes (the north camp - Num 2:25) to go forward.
And it is this account I believe that was Paul's instruction to the believers which would have been rich in meaning to them & not the Revelation Trump which had no meaning or significance. Just as the trumpet calls were for the tribes to move forward, so to the LAST Trumpet Call (NOT 7th Trumpet) was for the final tribe to move & that all tribes were now marching; and this Last Trumpet Call also signifies that final trumpet call for believers to be gathered together in the march (upward) to meet their Saviour.
John, I would add a couple of thoughts to this discussion. In the first quote you say: "We don't fly into the air in these flesh bodies to meet the Lord and Savior; we will spiritually all be changed BEFORE this particular meeting will take place ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)".
This passage is the same one Paul used in 1 Thes 4:15-17, where the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There is no evidence of a spiritual change taking place here: it was fully accomplished at our repentance & re-birth at the foot of the Cross. This is purely a bodily change as will occur to those 'who sleep in Christ'.
Second point: "The point of the initial statement was that this meeting between the Lord and His "chosen" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13) will happen at the 7th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial; and not any time before".
Rev 11:15 is often used to support the Last Trump of 1 Cor 15:52. Yet, at the time of Paul's writing, he was unaware of the revelation given to John, as it was hidden from all till John's encounter with the Lord at Patmos. True, Paul could have written this 'in the spirit' not knowing that what he was writing now was actually yet to be revealed to John later on, but when we consider Paul, we see that he continually referenced the Old Testament as this was his area of competence. If his reference was to the Revelation Trumpet, it would have been of no use to those living there as they would have been dead a long time before the sounding of that trump. Even though he counted all 'things as loss for Christ', he didn't forget his OT in light of its Truths found in Christ.
The return of The Lord and Savior comes with a cleansing of the earth. No person, good or bad, will be in a flesh body for that, look at 2 Peter 3:10-12, and is why "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven."
As far as the trumpets of the Numbers 10:1-10, and any other mention of trumpets in the OT, it is an example of a call to action. Paul (Saul) was a repenting Zealot who had a tough time forgiving himself for previous sins. Revelation, however, speaks specifically of 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials; not 8 or 15. There should be no confusion.
All Scripture we are given is the collective inspired word of God, not Moses or Daniel or Paul or John. The book of Revelation is not the revelation of John, it is the Revelation (revealing) of (the words) of Jesus Christ (to John and to all of us). It is improbable that the OT and NT authors (such as Paul) would have complete (if any) comprehension of the implication of God's words given to them that would have fulfillment in the future. For example, Isaiah 7:14 declares that a virgin would conceive. This particular event literally came to pass in the days of Isaiah, as those words were fulfilled in the 3rd year of Ahaz, (look at Isaiah 8:4). We all are also aware of the figurative understanding of the future fulfillment of this in the literal birth of the Savior of the world ( Matthew 1:23).
If it is true that "our spiritual change was accomplished at our repentance and re-birth at the foot of the cross," then do you believe "once saved, always saved"? I have not found that understanding to be in Scripture.
You also state that "This is purely a bodily change as will occur to those who "sleep in Christ." Do you believe that no person that has already died is in heaven with God and Jesus? If they are in heaven, do they have any "garments" ( Revelation 16:15) on?
You are correct concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 being the same (end-time teaching), however, they cover death (rendered "sleep") from a slightly different angle.
The lesson we are given in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 has to do with a question posed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:12 concerning, in general, "the resurrection of the dead" ( 1 Corinthians 15:12). If you believe that Christ rose from the dead, then those that (have already) sleep / die / pass on, are already with Him, ( 1 Corinthians 15:13), also look at John 3:12, Romans 8:6.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Paul states that "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent (Strong's #5348- precede) them which are asleep (dead). Why? Because they are already dead: This is why "the dead in Christ shall rise first" ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16). So, "If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep (have already died) in Jesus will God bring with Him (at the 7th trump)" ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14). The dead are not in a hole in the Ground, they are with the Father the moment they pass ( Ecclesiastes 12:6-7). Ecclesiastes 12:7 is the O.T. reference as to why Paul states "By the word of the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.
2. Concerning those who have died in Christ: I believe that the spirit & soul returns to God upon death; even as Paul longed for, "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord" ( 2 Cor 5:8). What the departed believers wear in Heaven is not revealed, though Paul refers to this somewhat in 2 Cor 5:1-4, when "our earthly tabernacle will be dissolved & we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our house in Heaven" seems to refer to some type of covering or form.
I agree with you, that 1 Cor 15:50 ff aligns with the matter Paul was dealing with in verse 12, viz the resurrection of the dead. However, you state later: "The dead are not in a hole in the Ground, they are with the Father the moment they pass". Apologies, I'm confused by what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that at Jesus' Coming, that there will be no 'grave opening' for the remains of the dead saints to rise up (& go ahead of) the living saints? If so, then who are the "dead in Christ rising first" at the coming of Christ (v16)? I would think that in the normal reading of verses 16 & 17, we see three simultaneous events: Christ coming, the dead saints rising, & the living saints taken up after that. Eccl 12:7 only speaks of the spirit of man returning to God, but not of the resurrection. Maybe, I've misunderstood you altogether so will not proceed with this.
Then we have the debatable passages like Heb 6:4-6. I see the Hebrews writer speaking about a scenario of one who is saved then turns back to Legalism (i.e. to 'fall away' in this instance), having no chance to be 're-saved' because he would do despite to the Cross. Yet he says in v 9, that he is 'persuaded better things of them, things that accompany salvation'. So, looking at what the writer shows to us, it appears that he is not suggesting that there would be some there who could fall back into their old beliefs, but that to do so would mean no more grace for their salvation. So, why does he even suggest this matter? Likely, to show the finality & seriousness of Calvary's Work doesn't allow for hypocrisy & mistreatment, rather that all believers should 'work out their salvation with fear & trembling' ( Phil 2:12). Or, some 'believers' there may have appeared as genuine enjoying corporate blessings, but their return to that which kills, proves their insincerity & lack of a re-birth experience.
John, thanks for your comments. To answer your questions:
1. Yes, I do believe that one who has been truly born again IS eternally secure from the moment of receiving & indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are many verses that speak of this but I would claim Ephesians chapter 1 as a portion of Scripture that encapsulates this Truth. Words such as: chosen (v4), predestinate (v5), accepted (v6), having redemption/forgiveness (v7), an inheritance (v11) & sealed (vv13,14). These are not attributes of any who are so-called 'believers' who can be lost at some later time in their lives - these are believers chosen & predestined to be God's own who will never/can never depart from this Holy relationship. They are kept safe & secure in His Love & nothing can pluck them out of His Hand ( Jn 10:27-29). I believe that the reason for differing points of view on this matter is because I understand that a believer is someone saved from the biblical perspective & not from man's. Man will say: "if a sinner repents & he is now saved by the Blood, therefore he is a believer": in other words, we would look at the Christian based on his testimony & even evidence of it - & that's far as we can see. However, the Bible regards the repentant, reborn sinner as one who has indeed received new birth from above & that new birth is non-negotiable just as a physical birth is ( cf Jn 3:4).
I read verses such as 2 Peter 3:17 which directly states
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things BEFORE, BEWARE lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness."
And, to use your verse pointed out; "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philippians 2:12): Why would Paul say this to his followers if he did not mean it?
So then; "Let us "Study to show ourselves approved unto God ( 2 Timothy 2:15) and "LABOUR therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" ( Hebrews 4:11).
The clothes that we wear in heaven can be seen from Revelation 19:8; as the clothes (white robes that WE have washed) put on there are woven from the righteous acts we perform here on earth.
My point concerning death is simply that when we die our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God. I don't believe that anyone in heaven that is with the Father (on the right side of the gulf) is walking around without any garments on.
If we believe Christ rose, then so does everyone else that dies.
Matthew 27:52-53 was a onetime event to show to all living at that time that Christ defeated death (look at 1 Corinthians 15:54-55, Hebrews 2:14).
You have given pertinent Scriptures to support the believer's constant struggle against falling away. And I suppose that whatever Scriptures we offer, we can always find support for our views through them. So, it's only when I can stand on a firm basis (in Scripture) that I can then proceed to other Truths from there. Then I ask myself: that if portions like Ephesians chapter 1 show that we have been "predestined unto the adoption of children", does this Scripture make any allowance for error in Paul's teaching or indeed, God's Work, or maybe it has another meaning or even my misunderstanding of it?
My belief is that this Scripture is not just for those who are called to be apostles or the giants in faith, but to ALL who are the purchased possession of God according to His Own choosing. Can I then even presume that what God has ordained, would have an iota of chance of being lost back into the world of evil? If then, God's choosing & predestining of our lives are without the possibility of fault, then what should we make of those other Scriptures (as you quoted) that warn believers ( Phil 2:12): "to work out (practise the full demands) of your salvation with (in) fear & trembling"? Do such Scriptures then speak of the possibility of a loss of salvation or could they be warnings to believers to not become slack in their faith or even syncretize it with any other teaching, or else there would be punishment & suffering, even death: yet "he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire". Maybe it would take a great persecution or even the prospect of an agonizing death as a result that would divide those who have loved the Lord more than their own lives from those whom the Lord will find no pleasure in.
Hi John, it has been good chatting & going through your valuable comments. As I read them on Page 1, I could see a brother who desires most of all to be faithful to his Lord in every area of his life. And that, in truth, is what is expected of us & when we falter, the Spirit within immediately steps in to teach us, correct us & bolster our faith & resolve. This blessed work of the Spirit is what I cling on to, as it's not only proof to our hearts of God's Love & indwelling, but the 'sufficient' Grace given when needed. And I'm sure your faith will stand in the most testing of circumstances & that the Power of God will be revealed in you to maintain that bold stand.
I've personally experienced this while serving in Pakistan, when His Power & intervention were mightily seen during times when our human resources had long expired & circumstances well beyond our control. Those were experiences that can't be shared here, but were those that cause us now to have great confidence in Him & thrust out against the Enemy in his territory. In the West, the Enemy is the same but what we may be called to stand against, might be different - for now.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions as well as your thoughts on the matters being discussed.
I would tend to agree with most of your thoughts concerning being saved. But I look at it from this point of view. Those that are predestinated, and chosen, and accepted, etc such as Abraham, Enoch, Moses, etc. are saved because God said so, as many of the verses you offer supports. We have examples of them throughout Scripture (whether they wanted to do the will of God or not i.e., Jonah or Saul / Paul). And I agree, it is only Jesus and God that truly know you are saved, man does not. Neither God, nor Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, has revealed to me that I have been chosen, or have become acceptable, etc
I would like to believe that I have been predestined, and already saved through my steadfast belief in The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I feel very blessed throughout my lifetime.
I want to believe that I have an unshakable faith that can withstand all the horrors that can be inflicted upon myself and my family and my friends.
I realize that I have had to fight for none of the religious freedoms I currently enjoy.
I have never been truly tested; life or death to be a Christian; as in other parts of the world today.
I feel as though I need to contend every day for the faith that was once given unto the saints ( Jude 1:3).
I pray that I can withstand the fiery darts of Satan if and when the time comes.
I know that if the end times weren't shortened by Christ Himself, even the elect would not be saved ( Matthew 24:22).
Hebrews 6:9 concerns the hope / confidence / trust that the beloved in Christ will not falter; but for those spoken of in Hebrews 6:6 that were once enlightened, and have now fallen away; Hebrews 6:8 is their final end.
I guess I did misunderstand what you were getting at. Many believers use the word rapture. That does not offend me when someone uses the word rapture instead of "caught up." It's the same thing for me. I use the term myself. As far as sticking to just bible words, assuming we are all using an English translation, how do we know they are the right words being used without having an understanding of the original languages?
We know that the New Testament was written in Greek, but without knowing how to read Greek, do we just assume that everything in our English translation was translated with pure accuracy? If we really want to share just bible words, why don't we share where each word came from and what that word truly means according to the original text and language? Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for sharing bible words. But unlike Greek, English is a very general language and English words can have multiple meanings which change the whole context of a particular passage of scripture.
Although we disagree on the timing of the "meeting with the Lord," I agree that I don't want to be the one taken that is mentioned in Matthew Chapter 24, and Luke Chapter 17 because I know where the one who is taken goes. Some say it's taken into judgment. Some say it's for salvation, a person is taken saved. Some say it's one of these gatherings, the Lord gathering His people from the four corners of the earth.
In Luke's account, Luke 17:37, it tells us that they are taken into judgment. They are drawn into the Valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon. I see in Revelation that God is the one that draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo to fight against Him when He comes. So Luke 17:37 tells me that they are taken for judgment.
Anyways, I apologize for answering without fully understanding what you were trying to present.
Jesse the argument is not whether or not the resurrection (rapture) will occur. It is the timing of the resurrection that is at issue here.
Pre tribbers almost never seem to use this scripture since it tells us when the timing of the resurrection is.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The LAST TRUMP I know of is the 7th trump or trumpet at the end of the tribulation in the book of revelation.
There is no last trump prior to the tribulation.
Some try to deny trump and trumpet are different.
Websters Dictionary 1828: TRUMP, noun
1. A trumpet; a wind instrument of music; a poetical word used for trumpet. It is seldom used in prose, in common discourse; but is used in Scripture, where it seems peculiarly appropriate to the grandeur of the subject.
At the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised. 1 Corinthians 15:52. 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Just because the word rapture is not found in the bible don't mean there will not be one. In the last days the saved (those that are alive and also those that has died in Christ) will be brought up to meet Jesus in the clouds and brought to Heaven. This is what most people know as the rapture.
All, both good and bad will go through the Tribulation.
We will all meet the Lord and Savior; at the 7th Seal and the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Vial
First of all, the rapture is taught in the Bible; it is just a matter of semantics. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says concerning the rapture: Then we who are living and remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds for a meeting of the Lord in the air.
The phrase shall be caught up is translated from the Greek word HARPADZO, which means to be caught up, to be snatched, to be seized. The Latin translation of the same Greek word is RAPTUS, which is where we get the word rapture from. So whether you call it the rapture, or the HARPADZO, or say shall be caught up, it is all talking about the same thing.
If the 7-year tribulation takes place during our lifetime, I want to wish you luck. I don't plan on being here. The King James is my bible of choice. And yes, I agree that there are verses that speak of the elect being here during this time frame. But we are not the elect. The term elect is a term that specifically applies to the Jews. They are God's elect. So yes, there will be the elect here during this time frame.
There will be 144,000 Jews who will be protected by God so that no harm will come upon them. Let me ask you this. Let's say that this happens in our lifetime. What will your role be during this horrific time on this earth? How will you survive the events that will take place during that time? I know the 144,000 Jews will be protected, and they are told to flee during the last 3-1/2 years which will be so horrendous that only a few will survive. That's why God says for the elect's sake (The 144,000), those days will be shortened.
How will you get through it? Can you please share with me scriptural evidence from Revelation Chapters 4 through Chapter 19 that talks about the church's role during this time? And in Revelation Chapter 19, who is at this wedding feast, and who are these people who are described as being clothed in white garments? And who are these armies that come back with Christ as His second coming clothed in white garments, the garments of a bride?
I do respect your view. I just need proof from those Chapters in Revelation that show me that I will be here and what my role will be. It won't be to spread the gospel message and evangelize because God already has that covered. I respect your view, even though I disagree. I don't get angry at anyone who believes we (The Church) will have to go through the entire tribulation period. It doesn't bother me at all. What I don't understand is why it bothers people so much that I, along with many others believe we will not go through this horrendous time.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew Chapter 18
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.
So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.
Comment: Jesus is going to take the little ones in the Rapture. He'll not leave them here to be used as bait for Antichrist's Mark of the Beast.
If you LOVE your kids; infants & older, everyone pray now to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord! Decide NOW. In the blink of an eye, is all we've got to make that decision. Put your most holy trust in Jesus.
I agree with you, the phrase from ( 2Thessalonians 4:17) "shall (will) be caught up" is a translation of the Greek word "harpazo" (#726). The word "harpazo" is a derivative of the Greek word "haireomai" (#138) which is defined as to take for oneself, or to prefer; i.e., to choose.
You may have misunderstood what I said. As far as the KJV goes, the word "rapture" is not found. In fact, I am not aware of a Bible that does use the word. For the sake of all levels of Bible students, we should try to use Bible words whenever possible: Words that can be looked up in Bible Dictionaries.
Sadly, the word "rapture" is more than just semantics. It has become known as the "rapture doctrine."
We don't fly into the air in these flesh bodies to meet the Lord and Savior; we will spiritually all be changed BEFORE this particular meeting will take place ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The point of the initial statement was that this meeting between the Lord and His "chosen" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13) will happen at the 7th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial; and not any time before.
You don't want to be the first one taken! ( Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36)
So, could it well be that the Last Trump mentioned by Paul was because of his knowledge of the trumpet sounds & timings of the Old & not the Revelation Trumps? The occasions of those trumpet sounds were numerous ( Num 10:1-10): whether for calling the assembly together, commencement of their journeyings, for war, & during their solemn feasts. Then this thought develops: Numbers chapter 2 identifies how the tribes were to encamp, till verse 34, when they also went forward just as they had pitched. So this forward movement with the trumpet call aligns with Num 10:1-6. And in this 'call to march', the last (final) trump would have been sounded for the last of the tribes (the north camp - Num 2:25) to go forward.
And it is this account I believe that was Paul's instruction to the believers which would have been rich in meaning to them & not the Revelation Trump which had no meaning or significance. Just as the trumpet calls were for the tribes to move forward, so to the LAST Trumpet Call (NOT 7th Trumpet) was for the final tribe to move & that all tribes were now marching; and this Last Trumpet Call also signifies that final trumpet call for believers to be gathered together in the march (upward) to meet their Saviour.
John, I would add a couple of thoughts to this discussion. In the first quote you say: "We don't fly into the air in these flesh bodies to meet the Lord and Savior; we will spiritually all be changed BEFORE this particular meeting will take place ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)".
This passage is the same one Paul used in 1 Thes 4:15-17, where the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There is no evidence of a spiritual change taking place here: it was fully accomplished at our repentance & re-birth at the foot of the Cross. This is purely a bodily change as will occur to those 'who sleep in Christ'.
Second point: "The point of the initial statement was that this meeting between the Lord and His "chosen" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13) will happen at the 7th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial; and not any time before".
Rev 11:15 is often used to support the Last Trump of 1 Cor 15:52. Yet, at the time of Paul's writing, he was unaware of the revelation given to John, as it was hidden from all till John's encounter with the Lord at Patmos. True, Paul could have written this 'in the spirit' not knowing that what he was writing now was actually yet to be revealed to John later on, but when we consider Paul, we see that he continually referenced the Old Testament as this was his area of competence. If his reference was to the Revelation Trumpet, it would have been of no use to those living there as they would have been dead a long time before the sounding of that trump. Even though he counted all 'things as loss for Christ', he didn't forget his OT in light of its Truths found in Christ.
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The return of The Lord and Savior comes with a cleansing of the earth. No person, good or bad, will be in a flesh body for that, look at 2 Peter 3:10-12, and is why "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven."
As far as the trumpets of the Numbers 10:1-10, and any other mention of trumpets in the OT, it is an example of a call to action. Paul (Saul) was a repenting Zealot who had a tough time forgiving himself for previous sins. Revelation, however, speaks specifically of 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials; not 8 or 15. There should be no confusion.
All Scripture we are given is the collective inspired word of God, not Moses or Daniel or Paul or John. The book of Revelation is not the revelation of John, it is the Revelation (revealing) of (the words) of Jesus Christ (to John and to all of us). It is improbable that the OT and NT authors (such as Paul) would have complete (if any) comprehension of the implication of God's words given to them that would have fulfillment in the future. For example, Isaiah 7:14 declares that a virgin would conceive. This particular event literally came to pass in the days of Isaiah, as those words were fulfilled in the 3rd year of Ahaz, (look at Isaiah 8:4). We all are also aware of the figurative understanding of the future fulfillment of this in the literal birth of the Savior of the world ( Matthew 1:23).
You bring up some interesting points.
I would like to ask a few questions.
If it is true that "our spiritual change was accomplished at our repentance and re-birth at the foot of the cross," then do you believe "once saved, always saved"? I have not found that understanding to be in Scripture.
You also state that "This is purely a bodily change as will occur to those who "sleep in Christ." Do you believe that no person that has already died is in heaven with God and Jesus? If they are in heaven, do they have any "garments" ( Revelation 16:15) on?
You are correct concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 being the same (end-time teaching), however, they cover death (rendered "sleep") from a slightly different angle.
The lesson we are given in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 has to do with a question posed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:12 concerning, in general, "the resurrection of the dead" ( 1 Corinthians 15:12). If you believe that Christ rose from the dead, then those that (have already) sleep / die / pass on, are already with Him, ( 1 Corinthians 15:13), also look at John 3:12, Romans 8:6.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Paul states that "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent (Strong's #5348- precede) them which are asleep (dead). Why? Because they are already dead: This is why "the dead in Christ shall rise first" ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16). So, "If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep (have already died) in Jesus will God bring with Him (at the 7th trump)" ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14). The dead are not in a hole in the Ground, they are with the Father the moment they pass ( Ecclesiastes 12:6-7). Ecclesiastes 12:7 is the O.T. reference as to why Paul states "By the word of the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.
2. Concerning those who have died in Christ: I believe that the spirit & soul returns to God upon death; even as Paul longed for, "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord" ( 2 Cor 5:8). What the departed believers wear in Heaven is not revealed, though Paul refers to this somewhat in 2 Cor 5:1-4, when "our earthly tabernacle will be dissolved & we earnestly desire to be clothed upon with our house in Heaven" seems to refer to some type of covering or form.
I agree with you, that 1 Cor 15:50 ff aligns with the matter Paul was dealing with in verse 12, viz the resurrection of the dead. However, you state later: "The dead are not in a hole in the Ground, they are with the Father the moment they pass". Apologies, I'm confused by what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that at Jesus' Coming, that there will be no 'grave opening' for the remains of the dead saints to rise up (& go ahead of) the living saints? If so, then who are the "dead in Christ rising first" at the coming of Christ (v16)? I would think that in the normal reading of verses 16 & 17, we see three simultaneous events: Christ coming, the dead saints rising, & the living saints taken up after that. Eccl 12:7 only speaks of the spirit of man returning to God, but not of the resurrection. Maybe, I've misunderstood you altogether so will not proceed with this.
Then we have the debatable passages like Heb 6:4-6. I see the Hebrews writer speaking about a scenario of one who is saved then turns back to Legalism (i.e. to 'fall away' in this instance), having no chance to be 're-saved' because he would do despite to the Cross. Yet he says in v 9, that he is 'persuaded better things of them, things that accompany salvation'. So, looking at what the writer shows to us, it appears that he is not suggesting that there would be some there who could fall back into their old beliefs, but that to do so would mean no more grace for their salvation. So, why does he even suggest this matter? Likely, to show the finality & seriousness of Calvary's Work doesn't allow for hypocrisy & mistreatment, rather that all believers should 'work out their salvation with fear & trembling' ( Phil 2:12). Or, some 'believers' there may have appeared as genuine enjoying corporate blessings, but their return to that which kills, proves their insincerity & lack of a re-birth experience.
John, thanks for your comments. To answer your questions:
1. Yes, I do believe that one who has been truly born again IS eternally secure from the moment of receiving & indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are many verses that speak of this but I would claim Ephesians chapter 1 as a portion of Scripture that encapsulates this Truth. Words such as: chosen (v4), predestinate (v5), accepted (v6), having redemption/forgiveness (v7), an inheritance (v11) & sealed (vv13,14). These are not attributes of any who are so-called 'believers' who can be lost at some later time in their lives - these are believers chosen & predestined to be God's own who will never/can never depart from this Holy relationship. They are kept safe & secure in His Love & nothing can pluck them out of His Hand ( Jn 10:27-29). I believe that the reason for differing points of view on this matter is because I understand that a believer is someone saved from the biblical perspective & not from man's. Man will say: "if a sinner repents & he is now saved by the Blood, therefore he is a believer": in other words, we would look at the Christian based on his testimony & even evidence of it - & that's far as we can see. However, the Bible regards the repentant, reborn sinner as one who has indeed received new birth from above & that new birth is non-negotiable just as a physical birth is ( cf Jn 3:4).
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I read verses such as 2 Peter 3:17 which directly states
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things BEFORE, BEWARE lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness."
And, to use your verse pointed out; "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philippians 2:12): Why would Paul say this to his followers if he did not mean it?
So then; "Let us "Study to show ourselves approved unto God ( 2 Timothy 2:15) and "LABOUR therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" ( Hebrews 4:11).
The clothes that we wear in heaven can be seen from Revelation 19:8; as the clothes (white robes that WE have washed) put on there are woven from the righteous acts we perform here on earth.
My point concerning death is simply that when we die our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God. I don't believe that anyone in heaven that is with the Father (on the right side of the gulf) is walking around without any garments on.
If we believe Christ rose, then so does everyone else that dies.
Matthew 27:52-53 was a onetime event to show to all living at that time that Christ defeated death (look at 1 Corinthians 15:54-55, Hebrews 2:14).
Death is another name used for Satan.
You have given pertinent Scriptures to support the believer's constant struggle against falling away. And I suppose that whatever Scriptures we offer, we can always find support for our views through them. So, it's only when I can stand on a firm basis (in Scripture) that I can then proceed to other Truths from there. Then I ask myself: that if portions like Ephesians chapter 1 show that we have been "predestined unto the adoption of children", does this Scripture make any allowance for error in Paul's teaching or indeed, God's Work, or maybe it has another meaning or even my misunderstanding of it?
My belief is that this Scripture is not just for those who are called to be apostles or the giants in faith, but to ALL who are the purchased possession of God according to His Own choosing. Can I then even presume that what God has ordained, would have an iota of chance of being lost back into the world of evil? If then, God's choosing & predestining of our lives are without the possibility of fault, then what should we make of those other Scriptures (as you quoted) that warn believers ( Phil 2:12): "to work out (practise the full demands) of your salvation with (in) fear & trembling"? Do such Scriptures then speak of the possibility of a loss of salvation or could they be warnings to believers to not become slack in their faith or even syncretize it with any other teaching, or else there would be punishment & suffering, even death: yet "he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire". Maybe it would take a great persecution or even the prospect of an agonizing death as a result that would divide those who have loved the Lord more than their own lives from those whom the Lord will find no pleasure in.
Hi John, it has been good chatting & going through your valuable comments. As I read them on Page 1, I could see a brother who desires most of all to be faithful to his Lord in every area of his life. And that, in truth, is what is expected of us & when we falter, the Spirit within immediately steps in to teach us, correct us & bolster our faith & resolve. This blessed work of the Spirit is what I cling on to, as it's not only proof to our hearts of God's Love & indwelling, but the 'sufficient' Grace given when needed. And I'm sure your faith will stand in the most testing of circumstances & that the Power of God will be revealed in you to maintain that bold stand.
I've personally experienced this while serving in Pakistan, when His Power & intervention were mightily seen during times when our human resources had long expired & circumstances well beyond our control. Those were experiences that can't be shared here, but were those that cause us now to have great confidence in Him & thrust out against the Enemy in his territory. In the West, the Enemy is the same but what we may be called to stand against, might be different - for now.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions as well as your thoughts on the matters being discussed.
I would tend to agree with most of your thoughts concerning being saved. But I look at it from this point of view. Those that are predestinated, and chosen, and accepted, etc such as Abraham, Enoch, Moses, etc. are saved because God said so, as many of the verses you offer supports. We have examples of them throughout Scripture (whether they wanted to do the will of God or not i.e., Jonah or Saul / Paul). And I agree, it is only Jesus and God that truly know you are saved, man does not. Neither God, nor Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, has revealed to me that I have been chosen, or have become acceptable, etc
I would like to believe that I have been predestined, and already saved through my steadfast belief in The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I feel very blessed throughout my lifetime.
I want to believe that I have an unshakable faith that can withstand all the horrors that can be inflicted upon myself and my family and my friends.
I realize that I have had to fight for none of the religious freedoms I currently enjoy.
I have never been truly tested; life or death to be a Christian; as in other parts of the world today.
I feel as though I need to contend every day for the faith that was once given unto the saints ( Jude 1:3).
I pray that I can withstand the fiery darts of Satan if and when the time comes.
I know that if the end times weren't shortened by Christ Himself, even the elect would not be saved ( Matthew 24:22).
Hebrews 6:9 concerns the hope / confidence / trust that the beloved in Christ will not falter; but for those spoken of in Hebrews 6:6 that were once enlightened, and have now fallen away; Hebrews 6:8 is their final end.
I guess I did misunderstand what you were getting at. Many believers use the word rapture. That does not offend me when someone uses the word rapture instead of "caught up." It's the same thing for me. I use the term myself. As far as sticking to just bible words, assuming we are all using an English translation, how do we know they are the right words being used without having an understanding of the original languages?
We know that the New Testament was written in Greek, but without knowing how to read Greek, do we just assume that everything in our English translation was translated with pure accuracy? If we really want to share just bible words, why don't we share where each word came from and what that word truly means according to the original text and language? Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for sharing bible words. But unlike Greek, English is a very general language and English words can have multiple meanings which change the whole context of a particular passage of scripture.
Although we disagree on the timing of the "meeting with the Lord," I agree that I don't want to be the one taken that is mentioned in Matthew Chapter 24, and Luke Chapter 17 because I know where the one who is taken goes. Some say it's taken into judgment. Some say it's for salvation, a person is taken saved. Some say it's one of these gatherings, the Lord gathering His people from the four corners of the earth.
In Luke's account, Luke 17:37, it tells us that they are taken into judgment. They are drawn into the Valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon. I see in Revelation that God is the one that draws the people and the armies into the valley of Megiddo to fight against Him when He comes. So Luke 17:37 tells me that they are taken for judgment.
Anyways, I apologize for answering without fully understanding what you were trying to present.
Pre tribbers almost never seem to use this scripture since it tells us when the timing of the resurrection is.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The LAST TRUMP I know of is the 7th trump or trumpet at the end of the tribulation in the book of revelation.
There is no last trump prior to the tribulation.
Some try to deny trump and trumpet are different.
Websters Dictionary 1828: TRUMP, noun
1. A trumpet; a wind instrument of music; a poetical word used for trumpet. It is seldom used in prose, in common discourse; but is used in Scripture, where it seems peculiarly appropriate to the grandeur of the subject.
At the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised. 1 Corinthians 15:52. 1 Thessalonians 4:16
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