Bible Discussion Thread

Comment* after reading this chapter, i have come to realise that faith alone cannot give us salvation but faith wit work.

Josephine, James has been a controversial book for many generations of Christians. However, if read carefully & in light of other Scripture that talk about faith, we have to conclude one thing. And that is, it is faith alone that saves a person from the penalty of sin & judgement (see Eph 2:8-10). Once we add works, or anything else, then it is no longer of faith & we make the Grace of God null & void ( Rom 11:6). This is because if we add anything to saving faith (whether it be the keeping of the Law, or doing good works for our fellow-men), then it is no more of faith but of works - the two don't mix - they cancel out each other.

But James in chapter 2 does not speak of what I've just shared, but speaks of the authenticity of that God-given faith. In other words, an authentic faith will, must, produce good works. If it doesn't, then that is not genuine faith & the person having that, isn't saved.

The other point then is, if as you say 'a person has to have faith & works to be saved', then I would ask, "how much works has to be done to make that faith or salvation certain"? You might do wonderful things for people & society ten hours in the day, but will that be enough to get you saved? So you see, you cannot combine the two - it's one or the other. Faith saves - Works kills. And Faith & Works together can never secure you as you then have to add more to what Jesus has done on the Cross for you. Walk in faith dear sister, & do works that result from that faith, making "your calling & elections sure".

Is it true, the early church did not view salvation as the western church does. If that is correct how can we say today faith alone(if that was never heard of in 20AD)

Also, where did the doctrine of original sin come from?

Many thanks.

Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace we are saved through faith. it is not by faith alone, but by the grace of god and faith in his son that we receive the gift of salvation. by grace, we cannot earn grace. grace is given to us by a loving merciful god. it is freely given, we must only have faith in his word and in his son jesus christ. remember it is by grace through faith. not of works lest any man should boast. but he is telling us that if you truly believe you will also have works.

Google original sin. Plenty of info there.

Alan, from the reading of Scripture, I would say that the early Church & the present Bible believing Church viewed Christ's salvation, its operation & its application in the very same way. However, there were those in that early Church, Gnostics included, that wanted to corrupt its meaning, to which Paul was pained to address that important issue. And specifically, some would have the keeping of the Law, circumcision & traditions as part & parcel of this new faith. Galatians chapter 2 gives a clear demonstration of Peter's hypocrisy in this matter, to which Paul had to take him 'over the coals', as what Peter was requiring of the Gentiles was in direct conflict with the meaning of the Gospel of Salvation, i.e. that the Cross has set us free from the bindings & consequences of the Law. If then, from your question, "the early Church did not view salvation as the western Church does" is your belief, then if you could provide some evidence of this please?

As well, I did not understand your other question: "where did the doctrine of original sin come from?" If it's not from the Bible ( Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21,22), then I don't know from where else.

Original Sin... Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.

Hasn't the West not changed the Christian narrative?

Original sin is a Bible doctrine, not just Augustine.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Yet ALL does not mean ALL with one exception

Hebrews Chapter 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. WITHOUT SIN Jesus

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

It's not a narrative, but literally what the Bible says is what most Christians believe. Romans 5:12, 1 John 1:8-10, Romans 3:23, Romans 7:18.

Why do you assume Christians have a narrative? Do you believe the Bible?

I suspected possible false church teachings 2x in Bible church ... I urgently felt the need for myself and wife to seek Jesus not Trump during 2016 presidential debates. Publicly baptized and accepted Jesus as savior in a safe space. We also attended bible studies and Praise worship and fellowship means every single week.

501C3 I also suspect is synonymous with at least partially beholden to Caesar (government).

My guy level beliefs after reading my own KJV Bible and praying for Holy Spirit discernment differs from pastoral teachings.

I think witnessing publicly that Jesus is savior to a hostile boss (trials/tribes) or as prophesied under persecution or certainty of death (seems likely) is more in line with the great disciples in my Bible.

Love thy neighbor as thy self. (esp neighbors who oppose me) (Works) is directly in line with gospel.

"Endure til the end" "few will choose the narrow path" in gospel doesn't seem to line up with the multitudes who being "taught" the Bible and choosing to believe in a pre tribulation rapture and immunity for themselves from all the extreme trials hardship and persecution of death reserved for other undefined non pre trib raptured people.