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Since you initially offered the illustration of the mansion as it relates to my building it in the location that the enemy has access to, I ran with it. Therefore to your next question:
"wouldn't it be wiser to just build the house where the enemy couldn't get to it? Or was that an impossibility? Was it an absolute necessity to build the house right smack in the middle of Satan's kingdom?"
That would be an impossibility, as this enemy of mine is so filled with hate & relentless in his pursuit of me, that wherever I go he is lurking around the corner (with his bulldozer of course). And as far as his kingdom is concerned, he seems to have the property deeds to everywhere I go (I would despairingly think, that he actually owns & controls the 'world'): almost like being a god of this world. Wherever I go, he's there, so I figure, just stay where I am & enjoy my mansion by the river & deal with my enemy as he thrusts against me with the weapons that God has given, as this is the only ones that work.
Carlos, to your questions 1, 2, 3, 4: I don't know why Satan was banished to the Earth & not to another planet or star. God's creation was perfect (I emphasize: in its MAKING), so whatever evil was near to it, was of no consequence - evil would have no influence on it. But you will say, 'Evil did have an influence'. Why? Because this perfect creation chose to disobey their Creator. It is all about CHOICE. To deal with your point properly, I would say that God should have created A & E without the power of choice (thus, unlike their Creator) or make them using a set program written in their minds (= robotic), or as you suggest, keep them out of Satan's reach altogether. God, for His Own reasons, chose not to employ any of MY suggestions, & do this HIS Way. No risk in ruining His Creation: A & E were created in perfection, they chose to sin, Satan was successful, & God's ultimate Plan for bringing mankind back to Him was in action. Did God know all this? Of course. Then why bother? Maybe, just maybe, all this is a beautiful expression of His Character of Love, both in creating & redeeming. (onto Page 2)
So, where does the Bible say man was created perfect? I ask because I don't know if there is and I would like to know. Where does it say Evil would have no influence? Additionally, don't we in the 21st Century know better that previous generations that every person, starting with Adam and Eve, is programmed, like a robot or computer? It is called RNA and DNA. Every cell in the universe is programmed. Every seed is programmed. We can only behave as we are programmed to behave. We can only do what we are programmed to do. That applies physically and intellectually. I am glad, however, that your word of choice is Choice, not Free Will.
Finally, where does it say God created to show His love? But the question remains, will we have choice in heaven? And if we do, will we at one point or another make the wrong choice? If your answer is Yes, how do you know? Isn't someone with the ability to choose, capable of making the wrong choice? Even if he is perfect?
1. There is no "Free Will". But there is Choice.
2. Adam and Eve did not have the capacity, even with a Free Will, to choose between Good and Evil. How could they? They hadn't eaten of the Fruit that imparted that knowledge. So, did they Choose, on the basis of Free Will, between Good and Evil? Or did they choose, on the basis of free will, to disobey God? What was their Choice? Between Right and Wrong? How could that be, if they didn't know the difference until After they ate the fruit?
3. You haven't answered where the Bible tells us we have a Free Will. I won't tell you where it is found, so you can find it for yourself.
4. Your response that you think we will have Free Will in heaven needs further exploration.
5. You misunderstand. God didn't create man with a flaw or inherent sin. God created man whole. God created man to be what He wanted man to be. God created man perfectly suited to accomplish His purpose and for a body for Christ. But man was created limited in scope and ability. So was everything else. However, man was susceptible to decay, corruption, evil. Just like a perfect sheet of metal left out in the open rusts, man, exposed to the elements, rusted, decayed, sinned.
Let me say it this way. Man was the Victim of the environment he was created in. He was the victim of the limits of creation. But that limit was imposed by God, for His Purpose.
6. Evil did not exist before God or even at the same time as God. Evil is a consequence of creation. Evil does not exist on its own. Evil exists as a deterioration of what exists. Evil is a dependent quality, not a self-sustaining, pre-existent entity.
7. Spirit, body and soul are all programmed by the one that created them.
"Bias and conjecture shouldn't be what defines our understanding of God's Purpose. The argument that man can choose is not sufficient to justify Adam's poor choice." I think that's exactly what the power of choice is: to choose between right & wrong.
"However, the argument breaks down even more when confronted with the question on whether there will be choice in the eternal heaven. Is there a possibility the Redeemed will make the wrong choices in Heaven? And if not, why? Wouldn't not making the right choices make them robots?" If I were true to my understanding, I would say that we would definitely have the power of choice in Heaven, just as the Angels do. And probably more so us, being like unto Christ's body ( 1 Jn 3:2): both in spirit & flesh outfitted for Heaven. I would think that with Satan bound for eternity, that we wouldn't be contemplating wrong choices while in Heaven.
"Would not making right choices make us robots?" No, because of the power of choice are not characteristic of robots. If one says, that robots can choose, then it is only because of their programming, of which can't be said of the heavenly host.
"So, where does the Bible say man was created perfect?" Nowhere. I'm banking on the fact that God doesn't create anything with a flaw or with inherent sin, however minute, or else He wouldn't be the Creator of the Bible I know Him to be.
"Where does it say Evil would have no influence?" No verse, but the evidence speaks for itself. Evil abounds, whether before Adam, Christ, or us. It can have no influence on us unless we permit it access. Jesus was the only One Who defeated Satan & maintained His Perfection.
"every person, starting with Adam and Eve, is programmed, like a robot or computer". True, we have programming via our DNA, our nervous system, connected body functions, et al; but our spirit is not programmed by God, though it can be affected or we program it as a result of our sin nature.
What did scientists and archaeologists find in the earth? Maybe they were looking for gold and diamonds... they found bones! Ancient civilizations, artifacts, cave drawings! People dug post holes and found crude oil. It is never ending "what's next" around the earth. We start looking at the stars (possibly trying to find God) and find planets, moons, other galaxies!!
If you were a hate filled Lucifer, used to being admired for beauty and music to praise God with? What's wrong with that picture? Satan wanted the praise for HIMSELF. God told Michael the archangel, go take care of that (Satan). Michael hurls him to earth like an asteroid and ouchy, that was one Big Bang. Earth wasn't a garden yet. So Satan is here, bored, making dinosaurs, terrariums, cave dwellers who were eaten by dinosaurs or killing dinosaurs for food. There is no archeological evidence that cave men were religious. There's drawings of hunts, mean neighbors, herds. If there are cave people in heaven I'll make them banana bread cake and K-cups. Point is there been conflicting archeological evidence: pre-Adamic and post-Adamic; post flood. I find it very interesting googling. I find God's hand everywhere.
God wiped out satans projects with His own. Satan still owned the earth till God made first Adam. Adam messed it up giving in to his wife's offering of the fruit. I think he knew it was a bad idea. And it was. Satan May have thought he got the one up, on God, but not so. The WORD of God, Jesus, stepped in to be the 2nd Adam. Score one for the Godhead. Now Satan has to look forward to having his head crushed by Jesus. Genesis 3:15. Satan is not privy to all truth. When Jesus hung dying on the cross, satan thought he had defeated God by killing his only Son. Jesus came out of the grave with the Keys to hell and the Deed to the earth!!
Satan is defeated! His plans for Antichrist will fail too!
God deals with the devil because it is necessary. In our timeframe it might seem like a long time coming, but however many years we have been around, is really a twinkling of an eye in terms of eternity. That is why Peter tells us that 1,000 years go by as fast for God as a day. Time flies when you are having fun.
God is dealing with certain things to eradicate evil. And this is the process He is following. Christ came to destroy everything the devil represents. He came to end idolatry (making other things greater than God). He came to destroy death. He came to establish eternal perfection. See Daniel 9:24 and others.
Archeological records do show pre-historic people were religious. Religion has existed from the beginning, not just because God created us with a desire for Him, but because Satan and his horde used it to draw people away from God. The earliest writings are religious; Gilgamesh and Sanskrit. Just as God used to walk in the Garden with Adam and Eve, Satan and fallen angels made their presence known. Was association with these fallen angels and pursuit of idolatrous religious beliefs that excluded God, what the Fruit consisted of? Of course, we don't know. But everything in the Bible points to it. From the day Adam Sinned, to the present. The earliest cave drawings show rituals God would not approve of. Why have men been drawn to spiritual worship that excludes God? Why have they believed everything except the Truth? Out of 7 Billion people on the Earth, there are only 2 Billion that bear the name of Christ.
Think about this. Why is it Christ only showed Himself to a select group, after His Resurrection? Why not go public? Why didn't anyone recognize Him? They sat with Him, talked, fished and ate with Him, and they didn't recognize Him. Why? Because God has a Plan, a design. God created with a Purpose. Why did God speak in Parables and not plainly? Because if He had, they would believe. Didn't He want everyone to believe? The answer is a resounding No.
Men have been drawn away from God from the very beginning. Why? Satan. Satan enticed Adam and Eve by appealing to their curiosity about things they didn't know about God and the universe. He preyed on their innocence and the desire God placed in us for Him. God told them not to follow those things, but like Songs 2, they were enticed. They disobeyed. Gen 6:5, Rev 2:20, 2Kings 9:22, 17:16-18, Jude 1:11. 1Sam15:23: For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you. Sound like Adam?
"Archaeological records do show pre-historic people were religious". I think you're implying that there were humans/humanoids prior to Adam & Eve, if I am reading that paragraph correctly. So I can't comment on this, because of my different understanding of the Genesis account.
"Why is it Christ only showed Himself to a select group, after His Resurrection? Why not go public? Why didn't anyone recognize Him?" He had a short time between His Resurrection & His Ascension & needed to spend it with His disciples, if for nothing else, to convince them that it was indeed Him ( Lk 24). I wonder then, how would the public have reacted to His reappearance? Also with disbelief? A madman? Why bother with them, His disciples were His sole Focus at this interim period & to also be there to see His Ascension.
"Why did God speak in Parables and not plainly?" I don't believe the answer you gave is correct. Jesus qualified His use of parables in Mt 13:10,11, that He would explain the parables to His disciples, but they would just be stories to the rest.
"Satan enticed Adam and Eve by appealing to their curiosity about things they didn't know about God and the universe." That's not how I read it. Adam & Eve didn't express curiosity about God or the universe. They were simply enjoying their being & God's creation around them. Satan came to put a doubt in their mind ( Gen 3:1); they retorted correctly; Satan then gave them his convincing reason that they wouldn't die, but would make them 'wise'; they were convinced.
Thanks again Carlos, as I said, I only reply as you've sent your comment to all of us. And knowing the points that we disagree on, I feel that comment is required, not just as an 'attack' on your views, but to present what I believe is the correct, logical argument against it.
My take is that Adam and Eve, just like Cain and Abel, were not the only people in existence at the time. Adam and Eve, and this is my personal assumption, were the two people that eventually corrupted after God created man.
God Created mankind, expressed as Adam and Eve. We are told how God created them from the earth. They procreated, as instructed and began to populate the earth. So, WHAT IF, it was at some point in pre-history, that Adam and Eve disobeyed God? (Nothing to do with prehistoric Neanderthals).
The Genesis record says God walked in the Garden with them. Can that mean God was known to mankind, somehow, but not necessarily in person? Is it possible that from those that existed at the time, Adam and Eve became the 1st to sin?
Genesis 1-3 is not a detailed chronology of everything that happened in History. Is it acceptable to believe Adam's age as recorded, is possibly a starting point to history, not an indication of his age since creation? That is, could Adam have lived a thousand years before he ate the fruit?
And could his corruption, leading to disobedience have increased over time? Could it have been initiated by delving into divination and seeking guidance from spiritual beings (Idolatry)?
Eve had to know what it meant to give birth, to feel the pain of childbearing. They had to have experienced death in animals, though not in mankind, to know the meaning of death and an increase of pain. Neither was a foreign concept to them.
Your response on Christ's use of Parables and why He didn't go public after the Resurrection needs more thought.
Studied people will often not contemplate or take time to discuss and explain the difficult things. They are too busy being pompous and arrogant. I had the advantage of learning from one of the best Presbyterian Ministers ever. But he was humble, kind and loved to talk about every issue. He was a Philosopher Theologian, who mentored under Donald Barnhouse himself, at 10th Presbyterian in Philadelphia, Pa.
Regardless, I try to retain an open mind. What Rev. Ralph Hibbitt taught me was invaluable and it is the basis for all my questions, curiosity and desire to learn more. I wasn't always receptive to what he taught. But he was always patient and right on the mark. My own personal background spans the gamut of denominations. I appreciate them all and share things in common with them. But when I fit in one, I am rejected by the other. I believe Baptism is symbolic and not necessarily by immersion. I believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. I adhere to the Reformed Tradition, I am reject Church Entertainment, Declare it and it is Yours Fantasies and Prosperity Myths. And I consider myself an Evangelical proponent of Mission Work. So you see how things are difficult for me in Churches that won't discuss these issues. Churches that limit you to indoctrination?
And now that I have been exploring things, like a population before Adam and Eve sinned, a Phased Creation nominated DAYS, the Symbolic nature of certain things in Genesis and other subjects, you can see why Christians don't want to discuss them with me. We have all been indoctrinated, though some more than others. And if we don't talk, with an open heart, I can't learn and make corrections and those reading can't either.
My family was hardworking with 5 children, post-WW 2.
I was born to a farm in Red Rock, Texas. As a child, I think I was accompanied with an angel. Almost died lots of times. I had an awareness of God then. Genesis 2:19, God was actually interested to see what Adam would name the creatures. That's the God I knew then and now. I only want Him by my side. The sinful years don't matter anymore. He came and saved me at 34. I've been single 30 yrs since. My relationship with Jesus has only gotten sweeter and deeper over the years. I find Him fascinating; I worship Him as Holy; Lord of all. Whatever He asks, I will to do it. Ridicule doesn't slow me down. Keep your eye on the prize set before you. That would be Him. The greatest thing you can do for God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is to worship and adore them. Father is God; the Holy Spirit is the definition of strength, gentleness, teaching, leading. My poor efforts to define are not enough. Jesus is ALIVE! Never doubt who you have chosen to follow.
( Red scripture) 2 Corinthians 12:9, And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness:
I too have a thorn in the flesh. I've prayed for it to be removed, over the past 9 years. It kind of turns your focus more upon Jesus. He knows why and I learned to accept it.
The most dangerous thing you can do; is sit before the Lord quietly, in his presence. Perhaps to sing to Him, praise to Him for who HE is to YOU. You can't do enough of that; it Lights you up!
The singer met the Song, and he understood.
You log in hours upon hours studying scripture, translating scripture, frequently explaining (knowledge of the Holy) to unseeing eyes, unhearing ears. Give your gift to the Lord and let Him bring it back to you with power.
And as you say, "Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw." I am in total agreement. That is the way I see it. Now, the devil knows his days are numbered. And as you aptly claim, the devil seized the opportunity to 'test' Adam and Eve, in an attempt to destroy the work of God. So the question must be asked, was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation? And, why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden? Why not keep him as far away from His creation as possible? Maybe banish him to Mercury, Pluto or beyond. Why smack in the middle of the Garden? What was God's reason for that?
Was it to test Adam's loyalty? But if God, in His omniscience knew Adam would succumb to the tricks of the devil, why put him through that anyway? Is God so insecure that He has to 'test' His creation to make sure it is loyal to Him? Or did God have another reason for doing that?
Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation, to be made possible. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis...continued P2
Carlos, following threads is now getting difficult, so can only comment on points (hopefully the latest ones) that I see.
1. How does "man (Adam) eat the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality". So, is it the imagery of eating but not in actuality that you mean here? So then the fruit wasn't real, then probably not the Tree. Was the Garden real? I'm confused; my normal logical mind can't grasp such a concept, in that what is real anymore.
2. I have never believed that Angels could die (which implies mortality); they are eternal beings incapable of 'immortality' (like them, man will one day be in eternity). The only judgement for wicked Angels is not death, but the Lake of Fire.
3. "Was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation?" Yes. And "Why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden?" This is new to me. Do you have a reference for this? The only one I know is Rev 12:9, where God had cast him onto the Earth. And Ezek 28:13, but this shows that he was in Eden (maybe referring to the temptation where he sought out A & E), not cast down to Eden.
(onto Page 2)
Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt? Don't pull all your hair out or tear up your jacket. I am tempted to explain, but I won't. I'll let you steam in your chair for a while.
2. OK.
3. Maybe I misunderstood what Gen 2:9, Songs 2, Revelation 12:9, Lk 10:18, Isa 14, Ez 28:13, 17, Eze 31. The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden. The imagery of Ezk 31 compares the Tree of KGE with Satan. But let me change my position a little. Perhaps, as you pointed out, the Tree was a real tree. However, it represented Satan's corruption. My thinking is the Tree represented Satan's Kingdom, his realm, where he ruled with the other fallen Angels. I am expanding on the imagery. Trees in the Bible are used, as I previously mentioned, to connote empires, governments, great leaders. Because of the nature of the 2 Trees in the Garden, I think the same applies. I think Songs 2 reflects what happened in Eden.
I disagree that anyone or anything can interfere with God's Plan. He is God and His Will stands. You say Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible. Just the opposite. What can separate us from God? Nothing, Rom 8:35f. Our confidence is that nothing can ruin God's Plan. If a created, being can ruin what God does, we are in big trouble, Dan 4:35, Isa 14:24-27, 2 Chron 20:6 Isa 43:13, "Even from eternity I am He, and none can deliver out of My hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"
1. "A & E ate the figurative fruit by participating in and associating with people and Angels God told them to stay away from." How does one eat a 'figurative' fruit? What were they then supposed to be doing/partaking of, or indeed, what was Satan meaning when he referred to the fruit? This interpretation is meaningless to me. This example brings to mind a certain group of believers I knew who also found some 'deeper or hidden meaning' in many biblical references. One such was of young David's preparation to meet Goliath & his collecting of five smooth stones ( 1 Sam 17:40). Can a normal proper reading of this Scripture intimate some further meaning? This group believed that each of those stones had a spiritual representation, viz. Faith, Obedience, Service, Prayer, & Gift of the Holy Spirit. That with these stones in mind, we can be better equipped to deal with the 'goliaths' in our lives. Anything wrong with this? No, the teaching of Faith, Obedience, etc. are essential for us, so there's no problem. But I ask, why the need to use David's stones as representations/associations to Christian living & victory, undermines natural use of Scripture.
2. "Were Adam and Eve the only people alive at the time of their infraction? Was Lucifer the only Angel in Heaven when he became corrupt?" To these, I say, YES, & NO. The Bible gives no hint that any other human was there with A & E at the time of their infraction.
3. "The images presented in these verses are of the devil being banished to the earth and more specifically the Garden of Eden." I will have to leave off this one: I just cannot find these 'images' in the light of the Scriptures you cited. They don't make sense, unless exposition is given to each one of those verses.
4. "Satan successfully ruined God's perfect creation, but I don't see that in the Bible." That creation of humans, not machines, was given a free will; they chose wrongly. I'll also leave off this one: I've given my thoughts earlier.
1. The nature of the account at the Garden of Eden may be taken literally, but if it is, it doesn't entirely square with reality. The Bible says, "Come taste and see that the Lord is good." Is that figurative? Some Christians believe that when you have Communion, you're actually eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. It's called Transubstantiation. But are we to take the worlds of Jesus, "eat, this is my body, drink this is my blood" literally?
2. The Bible doesn't give us a 'hint' of many things. How old were Adam and Eve when they had Cain? Are we to believe Adam and Eve didn't have any other children before Cain and Abel? Where is the 'hint' there? Yet, we're told that after Cain ran off, he went to another city. What city? There's no mention of people populating the earth prior to that.
3. That the devil was cast to the earth can't be in dispute. The Bible says so. That the devil was in the Garden, is also clear. No question about that.
4. Satan could not ruin God's creation, period. After all, didn't the devil have to ask God's permission to hurt Job in different ways? If Satan could just step in and ruin things, why did he have to ask God for permission to attack Job? Why not just do it? Think about that. Did Satan ask God for permission to tempt Adam and Eve? Did he ask for permission to 'ruin' God's perfect creation? Did he act on his own to tempt Eve and destroy God's creation? Yet, he had to ask God for permission to tempt and ruin Job? But what were the devil's limits and who set them?
Job was a little guy. He had no impact on creation. And the devil had to ask permission? Yet, for something as significant and earth shattering as tempting Adam and Eve, he could just act on his own?
Fact is we have to interlace history and reality, with Biblical Truth. We can't read the Bible without the historical record and come to a proper, realistic, non-fictional interpretation.
2. Gen 3:16 tells us that Cain went to dwell in the land of Nod. We're not told whether there was a city or people there. I'm using the same principles as I would for the above comment.
3. The account of Job. Did Satan get God's permission to harm Job? I don't agree from the normal reading of that passage. It states that it was God who initiated the discourse with Satan, asking him, "Where have you been" & "Have a look at my perfect & upright man, Job". Satan questioned Job's uprightness & God said, "all that Job has is in your power, etc". I can't see that Satan got God's permission, why should he, Satan has free rein to influence each of our lives - but God sets the limits. And the same with A & E, no permission received from God. I just can't see how you are viewing these Scriptures; are you seeing something in the Word that I'm blinded to? Maybe, I need a fresh anointing in reading them.
In 4:13 Cain says, "I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and WHOEVER finds me will kill me." Who is he referring to if there were no other people alive at the time? In 4:15, "The Lord put a mark on Cain so no one who found him would kill him." The Land of Nod was named after Nod. Who was Nod? In that land, Cain found a wife and had children and built a city. Is it fair to assume his was not the only city?
On Job 1:12, we see how God instructs Satan on what he is to do to Job. It is clear from Satan's response that he did not have the authority to do as he pleased. If he did, why would he accept the limits God placed on Him? Why did he even show up to God? Did he just want to have a nice chat over Tortillas and Enchiladas? What did Jesus say to Peter, Lk 22:31, "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail."
Did Satan ask to ruin God's creation? if not, why would he ask permission to go after Peter? Did he ask permission to go after Adam and Eve? When Jesus cast the demons out of a demented man, what happened? They asked Christ for permission to enter the pigs, Lk 8. See Job 38:33-35, "Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's e dominion over the earth? Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?"
Apologies, I did mean Gen 4:16 (finger trouble). So, to briefly respond to your questions:
a. Cain & Abel's responsibilities: in their own farm & flocks; v 4 implies that Abel offered from HIS flock, as taking an animal from another flock would amount to stealing, unless permission was given.
b. Cain feared for his life: it could be he was talking about the future when in the passage of time, these others would seek out his life.
c. No idea who Nod was, just know it as shown in v 16. One can assume that the city was not the only one, or maybe it was the only one at that time.
d. Satan's accepting God's limits on him. 1:12 "all that he HATH" & 2:5,6 "upon his BODY". Life & death are the prerogative of God alone ( Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6), that even Satan can't intrude into. That Satan was limited only to Job's possessions, & later, to affecting his body, was God's limit to the extent of influence upon Job. Whether Satan would have attempted to take Job's life as well, though would be unsuccessful, is arguable, but for the declaration by God to not go that far or to attempt to go that far.
e. Lk 22:31: not "asked" but "desired" to sift you as wheat. That's Satan's prerogative: to do as he wishes with us, except for the bounds set by God. I sometimes wonder what would be our state on Earth, if Satan had unlimited access to our lives.
f. Satan asking permission to go after Peter. He didn't ask for permission. To go after Adam. Again, no permission asked for. About the demoniac: to go into swine. Yes, permission was asked for, they're in subjection/limited ( Lk 10:17). I couldn't get the gist of the remaining part of your comment on Job 38, as to the connection to Permission, since God was speaking to Job about His Greatness & Power. Of course, if Satan indeed asked permission against Adam & Peter, then I could understand from where you're coming.
Carlos, to your points:
1. True, there are somethings to be taken literally & others, not. The examples you cited are great, for they make sense from the natural reading of them. However, in the specific account of creation, if it should not be taken literally (& remembering, all of Scripture hangs on these facts), then almost all subsequent Scripture would have to be modified, or at least, reinterpreted to conform to it. E.g. in your view in another comment: "the possibility that from those that existed at the time, Adam and Eve became the 1st to sin?" I note the word 'possibility', since if there were others that existed before or during the creation of A & E, the further possibility arises as to the possible dual race we could have at present (i.e. descendants from them), that Satan never got to & hence are sinless. Can we presume that such a pure race are walking amongst us now & are therefore never in need of the Cross? So, it is possible that such a situation could exist, but common sense, by considering all of Scripture, tells us that this is impossible & therefore, why unnecessarily muse over such things? So then, isn't wiser to just stay with what the Bible reveals & if it doesn't & raises questions in our minds, then we ought to disregard those thoughts, accepting that the limits of our knowledge have been reached? Yes, there is much we don't know or even understand, but what is clearly revealed should be enough to satisfy us for now.
(onto Page 2)
As for those that didn't sin in the manner of Adam, that didn't last long. Paul says they too were imputed with sin. Not only that, wasn't everything destroyed with Noah?
Could one of our doctrinal myths have to do with the notion the Nephillim were offspring of Angels (Sons of God) and natural women (Daughters of Men)? Can Angels procreate? Are Angels male or female? Are Angels the same Species as Humans? Can Angels cross Species? Doesn't Paul say there are earthly bodies and there are Heavenly bodies and each has its own separate substance?
And would another be the insistence that "Day" in Genesis has to be a 24 hours Day? But what negative impact do you think these things would have on the trustworthiness and legitimacy of Scripture?
Rom 5:14: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression". I understand this from v 13: "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Sin is not imputed without the Law given, so those who didn't have the Law (see Rom 2:14) were regarded as "not sinning after the similitude of Adam's transgression", as Adam's sin too was apart from the Law. If God imputes transgressions to Adam or any who are outside the Law, then it's because the burden of the law was already in their hearts & applied in their societies. So the Law couldn't condemn them, but what was in their hearts & evidence of the transmitted sin nature, did. And, yes, Noah & his family were saved from total destruction, but sadly, they brought along the sin nature of Adam which couldn't be annihilated in that Flood.
And to the other examples of 'doctrinal myths' & our other beliefs: are they supported by Scripture, or should we accept that there is no Scriptural support & plead ignorance? So, the view of the Nephillim: unclear; Angels procreate, gender, species: No; Angels can cross species: evidence in the Bible is there, only by God's doing; the 'Day' in Genesis: easy for us to apply it to our Day, but God knows the period of time it involved. Yes, we would like to know all these answers, & it would be glib for us to say, 'when we get to Heaven these will be answered', but for now, if the Word doesn't give us the specifics, then we have to also remain unhappily unenlightened.
The Law is God. And the Law was written in our hearts. There was one Law in the Garden, "DO NOT EAT". It was posted on the Tree (figuratively speaking). If there is a sign in a Ranch that says, DO NOT TRESPASS, is it OK to walk in? Or is the trespasser breaking a Law? Clearly, the 10 Commandments had not been given. But the Law at the Garden was plain as day. "DO NOT EAT". Adam and Eve ate. They broke the Law God imposed. They disobeyed.
Now, a law written in the heart is not the same as an Edict. God's Edict was "DO NOT EAT" and it came with a penalty. The day you break this Law, you will be put to death. And the Universe will be cursed. And you will be expelled from the Garden. No such law attaches to conscience, which only creates guilt for the Day of Judgement.
I have tried to provide as much Scripture as possible in this short space, and am responding to your statement on one I provided. The Question is, are you perplexed and defensive, or are you trying to see exactly what I am getting at? Are you looking at additional Scriptures? Now, I didn't know Angels could cross species. Please explain. Thanks.
We're created in God's image and likeness. The Godhead was all Spirit at that time.
Anybody?
Carlos, I searched for my specific comment ("Christians are not afraid to examine and allow that there are parts of the Garden story that are not literal.") & couldn't find it, unless you were referring to my recent reference: "there are somethings to be taken literally & others, not." If this is the one, then my apologies for being vague but I was referring to all of Scripture & not just the Creation account. So what I'm saying is that there are Scriptures that are clearly (to me) literal or non-literal in meaning, & I believe that the Creation account is to be taken literally. If there are other things added to it as a result from our 'in depth calculations', even if it helps in understanding how certain future events must happen, this is where I would rather 'err on the side of caution' & not consider those things, than to treat them as 'likely factual', & so mistreat God's Word.
As well, I did use the word "if", when saying, "if it (Creation account) should not be taken literally (& remembering, all of Scripture hangs on these facts), then almost all subsequent Scripture would have to be modified, or at least, reinterpreted to conform to it." In other words, anyone who does not take it literally, would have to reinterpret other Scriptures to conform to the original interpretation. So I can't address your other questions because of this misunderstanding.
(onto Page 2).
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. (Assyrian a Cedar figure of speech family tree)
4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of EDEN Eden, that were in the GARDEN garden of GOD God, envied him. (Trees IN EDEN envied him? Trees have emotions or family trees figure of speech?)
Was the Assyrian in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?
Either way, if I can state my understanding of Ezek 31 briefly: Ezekiel's prophecy of indictment was against Pharaoh, king of Egypt. Pharaoh was proud that there was none like him in his greatness, his army & his strength. So God directs Ezekiel to tell Pharaoh to consider the king of Assyria, also great, whose monarchy continued from Nimrod. Sennacherib was a mighty one in that monarchy but it soon fell as Nebuchadnezzar then built upon or grafted from its ruins. So now in Ezek 31, the Assyrian King is pictured as a cedar in Lebanon, the greatest of all trees compared to anything around him. So great he was that even when compared to the 'cedars in the Garden of God', the botany of Eden also envied him for his greatness, which they couldn't match. And this was the prophecy against Pharaoh, & of course we see further his prophetic destruction in chapter 32.
So, "Was the Assyrian in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?" Clearly not. The picture painted in Chapter 31 was of a great Cedar (king of Assyria) whose greatness not only surpassed that of Pharaoh, but also of all the trees in Eden, from which one would expect to find nothing else excelling in height, strength & beauty. But even, in comparison, Eden's botany failed. Do we here see other people in Eden? I can't see them no matter how hard I look, nevertheless, God has indeed given us the gift of imagination, so maybe we can believe there were others beside A & E at the same time in Eden, to support our views.
Why do we need oil in Matthew 25:1-13? Oil is need to make light. Why do we need light? It is going to get really dark for the true believers.
Matthew 24 and 25 are for the 70 AD generation and our generation. The Christians at the time living in Jerusalem and those in the 7 churches of Asia Minor needed to read these things for during their time to encourage them to not give up just as Jesus said to be ready in our time. It's a Dual Prophecy. Mostly fulfilled in the first century, partially fulfilled in all centuries after and will climax like a mother giving birth in our last generation.
Can you take my poll on my new youtube channel?
I wold appreciate it if you could and anyone else you can get to take it. It takes about 2 minutes to fill out.
The message from Christ is not just for a little bit of worthless information, if we won't be here. It is a serious warning to Prepare. Be ready Spiritually, socially and politically. ISIS was no joke to those living in Iraq and Syria. And Christians died brutal deaths under their control. Were they prepared? Did they know ISIS would be such brutal animals? We have an opportunity to prepare for much worse. Will we heed the warning?
Your analogy of the Oil is spot on. We see it now. We see how persecution of Christians and Jews is increasing worldwide. That includes in the US and European Union. A Muslim is now given rights governors and mayors are taking away from Christians and Jews. A Christian stands to preach in a public square and is arrested. Jews gather for a funeral and are hosed down and arrested.
Good thing its that in those last days God will pour out His Spirit on Believers, for strength and authority. Some trust in chariots, but we trust in the Lord Jesus.
I will look for your site on YouTube. Thank you.
"It's that simple. Get ready. Prepare your heart. These things were written to Christ's followers, not those who dont' even read the New Testament. It will be too late for them when everything hits the fan to start reading about preparing. Too late then. Jesus knew what was coming on those 7 churches in Asia Minor and gave them warning, encouragement, exhortation and rebuke. The modern lukewarm church in America is not going to get raptured when it needs purified much more than any other century. It is very important to keep our hearts right and have Jesus as our first love."
The bridegroom took the virgins that had their oil lamps full and the went to the marriage supper. Matthew 25:1-12
Like Noah's ark, THE DOOR WAS SHUT.
Verse 11: Lord, Lord, open to us!
Verse 12: He opens the door and says,
I KNOW YOU NOT.
Sounds similar to some other stories, like:
Didn't we prophesy in your name? Cast out demons in your name? Chapter 7 verses 21-23.
Clearly this indicating mid-trib. Scripture writes that after the dead in Christ are raised, then those alive in Christ, will go with Him to a marriage supper as the Bride of Christ.
Enter the Antichrist to begin his reign of terror. One world money, one world religion, one world government. Sorta like game of thrones but it's not a game.
Why not skip it and be born again NOW?
Will YouTube steal away your first Love?
Will you be captured by wizards that peep and mutter (remember AOL days; logging online?) Isaiah heard that maybe.
Stay true to your first love.
As disciples of Jesus, we are supposed to be reaching out to the lost. You can do that here, if you can spare time from dissecting doctrine. I mean no harm. I say it longingly.