Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Amen. Rev 13:8 and 21:27. All who are written here are sealed & secure.

There are seducing spirits. ...having done all, to stand.

Robert: you are a much better historian than I am. Basically I just sit with the Holy Spirit and read for hours; read all the reference notes and flip back and forth.

Jesus was preaching to farmers, shepherds, fishermen, tax collectors, businessmen, religious people ... the communities. He used parables to identify them to Him.

He taught by parables (stories with teaching); He dropped names From all through the Old Testament (Torah?)

Things they were familiar with. Then he presented the Gospel to them.

That's what I do mostly if I am speaking evangelically. Some things some of you say will go right over an unsaved persons, or a baby Christians heads. I once had a older brother in the Lord shout at me: quit messing with college material and get back on the milk of the Word!! That hit me in the gut. I was shot down and doubting. I had a dream that night of the Lords table. LOTS of people at that table! Foods of all kinds, anything you want. Jesus was on my right arm. I was head down and grabbing everything. I couldn't get enough! Then I hear Jesus bust out laughing. He wasn't mocking; He was approving. All the hurt left me. I was assured my appetite was good.

Our learning will equal our appetites. If you just eat junk "food" there's an emptiness in it. Eat the real stuff. What is God like??

We're running a race to finish it. The race is ahead of us; not so much behind.

Write down when and what the Holy Spirit has you reading. What is He teaching today? I feel like if we gorge ourselves on the Word of God... satan doesn't have a chance to tempt us with food.

Who are you going to live with ETERNALLY ? Jesus laughs. He loves us! He encourages us! He is pleased with your efforts. Love Him back. That's all I can say.

Amen. All good brother. Stay in the Word. EAt. Eat. Eat. Pray while eating. I've been in many churches where very little spiritual food was given. Than God we have His Word in our hands today. Never take that lightly. I still don't know why you thought I didn't like or love you. I do. Get the gospel out while we can. I think things are going to get tough.

God Bless!

YOU: It has something to do with the Return. Israel gained Statehood in 1948. Gained freedom in the 6 day War. I'm not sure if there's an official date of the Jews returning from the dispersion?

ME: did you know many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed right after Israel was given statehood in the 50's, 60's and so on? The Balfour Declaration of the Britains pushed for this and pushed the U.N. to make this happen. Freemasonry really began bringing them back into the land. Luciferian 33-degree High Freemason Albert Pike stated in the late 1800's, that they would start WW1, WW2, and then make Israel a state again and then bring in WW3.

I personally believe this 1948 thing was false but that God started to try to bring back some of Israeli descent over the last 10 years or so, not the freemasons. If you check out Jewish scientist Dr. Elkan's DNA testing, very few TRUE blood Jews live in Israel right now. More live in Palestine. It is even said that there may be more Jews living in Iran than Israel. Most living there today are of Khazaria (old Southern Russia) -descent and why most are very white-skinned. This goes back to 800 AD when King Bulan converted his whole country into Judaism. The rabbit hole gets very deep.

God is trying to bring EThiopian Jews back into the land but they are being kept out due to their color. Most Christians do not know this but modern Israel is big into eugenics, the #1 gay capital of the world, and the #1 abortion capital of the world "per capita". Why would God bring back people for the very reason He kicked out the Canaanites and His people? God has to go against His word. Now maybe the Ethiopian Jews are living godly adn He is trying to bring them back. I don't have all the answers. All I know there was an awful lot that we were not told in America that was left out int he pre-trib teaching.

I can honestly say that I love everyone in this room. It's like a Real family. You all work very hard to help others understand the scripture and the history. I've been googling and reading there too; although I view it with reservation unless someone with more Bible experience shows it to be accurate. Thanks for your hard work.

This is our real family, not our earthly blood family. That is how Jesus taught it. Always compare what anyone says with the scriptures and never forget the three rules to proper Biblical exegesis- CONTEXT., CONTEXT. CONTEXT. I wish someone had taken me under their wing my first ten years.

YOU: "I read something once that 'this generation' had something to do with the fig tree blooming. I'll have to study that again. I don't think it has to do with Jesus's generation.

ME: Yeah, that is/was common pre-trib teaching. Some no longer use the fig tree in Matt. 24:32 to be Israel in 1948. They run into a serious problem because Jesus curses the fig tree in a previous chapter and says in Matt. 21:43, "the kingdom of God is taken away from you and given to another nation". verse 32 is just a metaphor that when all the previous signs Jesus just mentioned in that chapter are all happening at the same time IS JUST LIKE trees blossoming in the spring. Nowhere does it say Israel becoming a nation again as ONE of those signs, at least not in the gospels. Luke adds one extra detail with "...and all the trees" and then in verse 30 says "THEY". So if we are take to take Matthew's fig tree and ADD "and all the trees" from Luke, this means every nation that quit being a nation would have to become a nation again int he end times too. It just doesn't hold any water.

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

YOU: I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.

ME: I only believed in pre-trib because it was the only thing taught in America until the internet became available. it is all taught in Bible Colleges since 1909. I did my own studying though and that is how I came to my own conclusion. God had to convince me it wasn't right with no presuppositions or eisogesis involved and He did. I want it to be true but I KNOW it is not 1 billion percent. No doubts whatsoever and that is why I started my channel to show people WHY I came to the conclusion I did. It's just getting going. Many are leaving pre-trib doctrine as it teaches more than one gospel which is heresy in itself. Do yourself a favor and at least check out Pastor Sam Adams videos on Scofield. You will be shocked. I'm sure there are a few post-tribbers that are now pre-trib but the pendulum is swinging more and more to post and pre-wrath. Pre-trib was about 99%. If they started teaching all the views in the colleges it wold probably be about 25% that would hold to pre-trib.

YOU: I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appreciate that. Do you read Greek?"

ME: Yes, you can see Paul's writing style, Jewish thought and analogies throughout it. It was never questioned unto the late 1800's by the "higher critics" They question the virgin birth of Jesus and other core doctrines. The original KJB says "written from Italy by Timothy. Timothy, Mark, Luke and others did writing for Paul. I guess I would say 99% sure Paulw as the author

You: Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that.

Me: Your welcome. That is go to know you hold to the 66 books.

YOU: I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone.

Me: I heard of people dividing up those other gospels from Matthew but don't see how they can justify it. How do YOU justify it? Yes I have spent a lot of time. I know more than what was presented in Fighting for the Faith (Joe Schimmel', Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson's 5 hour long documentary) on the subject.

PART 4:

Pre-trib teachers have had this verse wrong at least since 1948. They totally ignored the synoptic gospels and that Luke gave an extra detail that shows us Jesus is merely talking about the signs He previously gave in the preceding verses and Israel becoming a nation wasn't ONE of those signs. Reread Matthew 24. You won't find it. It was added to the text to make their teaching fit. Woe unto anyone adding to God's Word. Most of the smarter teachers do not say that is Israel anymore because guys like me called them out on it and they know we will bring up the "fig tree being cursed" passage that is talking about Israel.

Read the whole chapters of Matthew 21, 22, and 23 the many warnings of time running out for you and the 7 woes of Matthew 23 given by Jesus Himself before He prophecies their destruction.

Part 3:

I will show you the first major problem I ran into with verses that were being used to support pre-trib teaching and it is one of many. I shelved all my unaccredited Bible College years and 30+ years of study on my own and just started reading the scriptures and asking God for truth.

Let's take this passage for example. This one woke me up. I can give dozens more but let's just go with this one brother.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Pre-trib teachers will say that this "fig tree" here is Israel yet it has absolutely nothing to do with Israel as it is metaphoric language and just mean ALL THESE SIGNS = MY PHSYICAL RETURN. That is what a metaphor is and usually has the word "like", like as" or "such" to show it is making a comparison. Now follow me here. This isn't rocket science by any means. I then went to Luke and it proves what I am saying here. Read the passage slowly and you will see the problem. We brush over things very fast sometimes and miss it.

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

We have that nasty phrase "...and all the trees;" in verse 29 looking us square in the face and shows this passage is not even talking about any nation.

PART 2:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Who was Jesus talking to here? - Peter, James, Andrew and John. That is how Jesus started His whole discourse which the end part of Matthew 21, 22, 23 and most of beginning of 24. Always ask yourself when reading a passage, What is the What?, Who are the Who?, When was the When?, Where was the Where, and What is the Why? Then make sure you read the context. You cannot get the FULL context of chapter 24 without reading the 3 previous chapters. You will miss a lot. It is all of the Olivette Discourse. You read Matthew 24 alone and you will believe and teach a lot of things incorrectly.

There is only ONE group of Jews that I am aware of today that strictly stick to the Old Testament. They are Kirite Jews and very few. The rest of the religious ones hold to the unsaved rabbinical teachings - Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara and is why they are unsaved. Those writings are commentaries- useless at best. 50% to 68% of Jews living in Israel today, yes today, are atheist or irreligious as their own media if you ever read their own online newspaper columns admits. So if you think they are going to read the New Testament, unless they converted to Christianity, it isn't going to happen. It will be way too late for them and after the fact when they do. The antichrist will be there soon.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my w

Hi Jesse,

I am going to have to do this in four or five parts since you are only allowed to write 2000 characters at a time.

PART 1:

Yes Matthew wrote with the Jewish mindset but so did Paul when he wrote Hebrews but it is for all of God's people. They key is WHO were these warnings given to? Obviously, those who follow Jesus so to say they are for future people who are only going to get the warnings AFTER it is too late just don't hold water. There are only ONE people of God EVER both in the Old and New Testaments. Abraham was a Syrian. He also had gentile servants. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breeds Manasseh and Ephraim. 430 years later, the Israelites came out of Egypt a MIXED people the Bible teaches. It has always been about being in the covenant.

Matthew 24 was written for every generation and for THAT GENERATION of Jews especially still living in Jerusalem who God would save 40 years later when He destroyed Jerusalem through Prince Titus thus fulfilling Daniel 9 and Matthew 23 and Matthew 21. So this is a poor argument at best. There were synagogues throughout the Roman Empire that many Gentiles went to as you can see over and over in the Book of Acts. Here is just ONE of 20 verses in Acts alone.

Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Matthew merely wrote what Mark 13 and Luke 21 say. These other gospels were written by two of Paul's missionary companions in which Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles". To say that Matthew was only FOR Jews because it was written with the Jewish mindset, you have to throw out the Book of Hebrews, the Book of James, the Book of Revelation (the most Old Testament TYPOLOGY book in the New Testament), and the entire Old Testament. The question is "WHO would be the ones to read it"? Only the followers of Jesus are ever going to read it.

Jesse, thanks for your insight. I wasn't aware of some of the interesting details you mention. What I understand is that Matthew was written for Believers in a Jewish setting. If you recall from Paul's admonitions to the Church in Galatia, there seemed to be a lot of confusion as to what a follower of Christ was was supposed to do. There was a vacuum of knowledge and understanding. Jewish Believers needed guidance. Were they still Jewish? Who exactly was Christ? What were His teachings?

Most of the people Christ addressed were Jewish non-believers. Does that mean that the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? Or that only Jews were to heed Christ's instruction for the Passover Communion? If you recall, there were no Gentiles present at the Passover. Or how about Baptism? Was that only for the Jews? Or the OT, is that for Jews only? Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter to the Jews. Does that mean we don't take anything Peter said as applicable to Gentiles?

Matthew 24 is no more for the Jews only, than the rest of the Bible. The message is to everyone, but even more specifically for the Followers of Christ. Matthew 24:29, whether for Jews or Gentiles, is the only, the only place in the entire Bible that pin points the Return of Christ. And in it, Christ Himself says He is coming after the Great Tribulation. Jewish or not, that is a piece of information valuable to everyone. Daniel 7-12 was written to the Jews, but not for the Jews. It was written for everyone, most particularly, for Believers in Christ.

If you do a careful study of The Day of the Lord, you will find it is limited to the last moment of the Great Tribulation, not the last 3 1/2 years. Same as Wrath. You don't, but many Christians think of the entire Tribulation as The Day of the Lord. But what you say about the Rapture is what Jesus says in Matt 24:29-31. And it happens Immediately After the Great Tribulation. 1 These 4 says the same thing, but doesn't specify, as Christ did.

Yes, I do recall Paul's letter. It was written to several churches in Asia Minor, in the region of Galatia, written because the false teachers came in and attacked Paul's ministry and message. The Judaizers professed to be believers in Jesus as Messiah, but their doctrinal approach was that the Gentiles are not in a position of Sons of the Covenant to receive the promises of God until they became Jews and they follow the Law. Paul corrected that.

You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.

Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.

You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"

Jesse, the reason I emphasize the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, is because I believer Christ was telling us to prepare for the Tribulation. So if during the Tribulation they say, Christ is here or there, don't believe them. The message Christ delivered in Matt 24-25 is, Be Prepared for the Tribulation you are going to go through. The question remains, how do we prepare Spiritually, Physically, Socially, Politically, Psychologically?

But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matt 24?

What is the basis of your belief?

I totally agree with you on this matter i believe the rapture will take place after the great tribulation. I even asked my pastor about it. He said that. Its for the ones that believe after the rapture and come to christ. But my reply is. There is only 1 2nd coming of christ not 3

I am in total agreement with you, Danny Donaldson. What happens is that some Christians think the Rapture is before the Tribulation so, they have to somehow account for Christians killed during the Tribulation for their testimony of Christ. However, they also claim, erroneously, that the Holy Spirit is taken away. They completely overlook the fact that what Christ said will apply even through the Tribulation. Everyone who believes is sealed with the Spirit of Promise. So while on the one hand they say Christians are Raptured, the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken away before the Tribulation, on the other hand they claim there will be a Church during the Tribulation. Problem is, they don't consider Believers converted during the Tribulation to be part of the Church.

Two other problems with that position are that if the Holy Spirit is taken away, who will convict sinners of sin? Who will Seal new Believers? Who will lead them into Truth? If the Church is taken away, who will spread the message of Christ? How can they believe without a preacher?

Most significantly, however, is that their position is not realistic. It is a fantasy developed from conjecture and feelings, rather than Scripture. What Scripture can they produce to support their point of view? None. Because there aren't any. The only places where the Bible tells us when the Rapture is going to be are all based on Christ's revelation that it will be Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

Unfortunately, their argument is superficial and based on unsubstantiated supposition. So you are exactly right, Danny. I was almost kicked out of a Bible Institute because I dared question the Administrator about the time of the Second Coming. And that was before I knew the difference. And after I preached a sermon based on Salvation by Grace, borrowed from Charles Spurgeon, the Pastor stood up, called me a liar, and told congregants not to believe anything I said. But Spurgeon was right. And so are you.

>How can they believe without a preacher?

The Bible. A preacher isn't necessary for someone to follow Jesus. Preachers don't save anyone, Jesus does. People can easily learn about Jesus from the Bible.

Well Carlos,

I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matt. 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?

Jesse, It's OK. You can believe anything you want. It does't mean you are less of a Christian. I am just stating what I understand. But don't let it upset you. I could be wrong. What's important is Christ, not whether we understand or agree on every detail of Scripture. Good talking to you.

Carlos,

Thank you for your kindness. Please know that you have not upset me by any means. As far as who's right and who's wrong, I try to avoid those things. I know I can be wrong also. I've said this before and I'll say it again: My strongest point as a believer in my relationship with Christ is to confess my spiritual stupidity. I confess to the Lord that I don't know. And even if I did know, I wouldn't know. Even if God did send me a message, how do I know it is from God? I don't. I plead dumb sheep. I plead I can be deceived and I'm trusting totally in Christ. When I began to take that approach and that position before Christ there was never any doubt about what the Lord wanted me to do. Everything was so definite. I did what He did. That's it! Where He goes, I go, and where I go, He goes, if that makes sense? I know my position will always be behind Christ. He said follow me. I don't walk beside Him, and I don't walk ahead of Him. My position will always be behind Him.

I think we could both agree that we sometimes let our own human pride get in the way of having healthy conversations. I myself am guilty of that. I consider myself to be very narrow minded when it comes to the things of the Lord. If that's considered a fault, that's a fault I don't mind having. You tell me that I can believe anything I want, and I wish it were that easy but it's not. And you and I, and any other believer for that matter, there's no such thing as being less of a Christian, just like there's no such thing as a believer lacking faith. I hope you understand what I mean by that.

Anyway, thank you again. It is good talking with you also. Stay in the word my friend. I'm sure we'll speak again. The Lord is good!

Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate your humility and Christ-like response. But there is no need for apologies. We all have regrets. We all change our minds. And we all defend our positions with fervor. That doesn't mean we don't have open minds. Most of Philosophy and Theology, and they are inseparably tied together, involves an exchange of ideas, controversy, intellectual frustration, research and regrets. I have come to believe that none of us has the whole truth, aside from the fact that Christ is Truth. But, for whatever reason, as someone explained before, in response to my question about so many denominations, it is like with the Tower of Babel. God confused their languages and dispersed them.

We all have different points of view. Good thing is that a Forum like this one gives us a chance to discuss and compare. Our views may either strengthen or change. Some Christians worship on Saturday. Some Baptize by immersion. Some believe in transubstantiation. Others believe in Free Will and some don't even believe there will be a Tribulation or Rapture. And they all get that from the same Book. So, in my opinion, no one has a lock on the whole truth. God has given each one of us a little bit, so we don't get puffed up with pride.

I just hope those reading and responding to my posts are not offended by anything I say, unless it is to drive them to the Scriptures that draw them closer to Jesus. Everything, Everything is about Jesus. We think it is about us, but it is about Jesus. He is the one who went to the Cross, suffered a grueling death, defeated death and now sits with the Father until it is time for Him to return to gather us up with Him for all eternity. We should not try to focus the attention on us, our comfort, our enjoyment, and the good life we are promised in Heaven. We must focus on the Victorious, Resurrected Christ who is God. Thank you.

Spot on!!!

Carlos, just to keep my response brief: I fully agree with your interpretation of Acts 2:23, that God foreknew that Christ would be delivered & slain. In fact, I would even say that it was God's Plan since it was part of His complete Redemptive Work. That Esau would serve Jacob, I agree that was God's Plan. That Herod, Pilate & the Gentiles were also part of God's Plan, I concur. Sorry, I can't remember making reference to the '1000 years is as one day'.

So with all that agreement with you (as above), where then is my problem? I think it is essentially in the days of Creation & in the workings of Satan. To restate: Adam & Eve were not created in corruption, rather they were created perfect, had a free will but chose wrongly. Was this in God's Plan? No. Was this in God's Knowledge? Yes. Did their sinning catch God by surprise? No. Did he plan for Satan to be there & entice them? No. Did God know that Satan would do this & succeed? Yes. Did God's future Plan to deal with Satan & corrupted man part of His Plan? Yes. So, what I'm saying here is that God doesn't cause or Plan for people to sin. Why? simply that a Holy God cannot have a part in someone's sin; to sin is the choice of the sinner, not of God. Yet God knew they would sin. Did God cause Satan to test Job's faith in God? No, it was Satan who prompted the test with a caveat from God. Did He cause Satan & the angels who followed him to sin? No, they chose to do so.

So I've given some examples of where we could differ; you could probably give more to learn my response. So, I don't believe He causes anyone to sin because it is in 'His Plan' to do so. Each one is responsible for their own choices. But God knew who would sin, both human & angel alike, & then had His Plan ready for whatever He deemed correct. So, am I saying that a Plan was created after the act? No, God already knows what will happen but not the instigator of a sinful act just to fulfil His Plan. So, I think it is on this point that we differ.

Chris, you say, "Adam & Eve were not created in corruption, rather they were created perfect, had a free will but chose wrongly." I partially agree. But I add, they were created in an existence susceptible to the potential of corruption. I disagree that they were created perfect and made a wrong choice.

They were not created perfect because, from my perspective, something perfect, free will or not, would not make the wrong choices. Something capable of making wrong choices is not perfect. You can't make an unsinkable boat that sinks. It is a logical contradiction. For man to have been created perfect, he had to have been created with a perfect will. A car with an engine that can break immediately after you turn it on, is not a perfect car. In the case of Adam and Eve, they lacked the ability to distinguish between good and evil. That inability is what got them into trouble.

Perfection is defined as the absence of fault or defect, with total accuracy and maturity. Adam didn't meet that standard. God did declare them good, but it was in terms of God's Purpose. They were perfectly suited for Christ.

The world they were created into was flawed. The Garden was not perfect. Why? Because it had a very bad, corrupt Tree right smack in the middle of it. Is a garden full of weeds a perfect garden? Would you like to live in a house by a stream that stinks of perdition? Not a perfect setting for a house, is it? So why did God put Adam in this beautiful Garden, then dropped a bomb on him? Wait a minute, you might complain. I just moved into this brand new house and you are going to build a mountain of trash, a dump, right next to my back yard? What is wrong with that picture? So God plants this Tree in my yard, then tells me to stay away from it? What's up with that? Sorry God, you might say, but couldn't you take that stinky Sycamore and bury it in the coldest depths of the Martian landscape? Why here?

Oops! Sorry Adam. I didn't realize you were so sensitive.

Page 2

Was the Tree of KoGaE a corrupt tree, as you have said? I simply don't believe so. It was in God's Design & was perfect. However, it was their wrong choice in partaking of its delights that opened their eyes to know good & evil. Could Jesus be tempted to sin & sin? No, the temptation was there, but Satan's encounter with Jesus was to cause a sin nature to become a part of Jesus' Being so that Jesus would fail as God's Son & Sacrifice. So we get back to God's Design in sending His Son into a corrupt world & back to A & E: God wanted to shield them from that trait of knowing the difference between good & evil becoming a part of them as they were 'wholly good, obedient & without sin'. But they chose unwisely under Satan's appeal to the only route 'into them' available to him, i.e. their power of choice. Did God know that was going to happen? For sure, or else He wouldn't be God. I couldn't align your illustrations of an earthly scenario of weeds, bad trees & trash as contradictions of a perfect condition - not the same as Eden, different because corruption is already in existence.

You state, "The world they were created into was flawed". I find that very difficult to grasp since God does not create things purposely with a flaw or blemish just to achieve His Design & Purpose. The world wasn't flawed at first, but became corrupt with the introduction of sin. And yes, God knew this would happen, but it was not a part of the Perfect Design; I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it. To the 'Tree' again: you state, "it (Eden) had a very bad, corrupt Tree right smack in the middle of it". Sorry, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the tree, or any of the trees/plants in Eden. If so, when they ate of it, they should have perished from the poison, or at least had some major medical issues, but the fruit appeared enticing to the eyes/flesh & delicious to the taste. Tree was good - choice was bad.

Chris, If you believe the tree was an actual unique tree, perhaps it wasn't a corrupt tree. You bring up a good point. But why would God tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit if there was nothing wrong with it? Keep in mind that if the tree is an actual tree, then its fruit is an actual fruit which imparted knowledge with one single bite. So God protected the Tree of Life, but what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Ps 104:4, Heb 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?

Your comparison between Adam and God in the Flesh (Jesus) is questionable. Christ came with a Pre-Determined Purpose. Christ is God. Christ was Mature and fully prepared. His response to the devil was, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." James 1:13, "God is not tempted by evil" and in Acts 2:24, "death had no power to hold him". Jesus was a man. But He was God in the body of a man. Death entered the world through Adam, because Adam was weak. But life came through Jesus, the Tree of Life, the resurrection and the life.

I don't agree with your assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent. Is there a Biblical foundation for that? Additionally, you imply corruption wasn't in existence in the Garden. But didn't God send the most corrupt thing in His creation to the Garden? There were 3 things in the Garden, Man, TKGE, TL. Why was the TKGE there?

I won't debate that God created a flawed universe. He didn't. It deteriorated on its own. But think about what you said, 'I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it."

Carlos, your questions: "what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Psalms 104:4, Hebrews 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?"

My answers: we're not told what happened to that tree. The Psalms & Hebrews references: clearly metaphorical, but if one had to insist they were not, I wouldn't dispute it as I can't ascertain any other Scripture to support their view. No idea how long the Angels were protecting the Tree of Life: we're not told. Were they cut down, what happened to them or did more trees of knowledge grow there? No idea, except for Rev 2 & 22 references to the Tree of Life.

My connection of Adam to Christ was purely as two who possessed a sinless nature. Both had the capability to be tempted, one failed, the other passed.

My "assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent". Yes, this is my assumption based on the fact that God said to them that if they ate of the fruit or even touched it, they would die. Of course, they didn't die immediately, but sin entered & they died spiritually & eventually, physically. So, death was the direct product of disobedience & sin, but my assumption from the reading is that, since God selected that particular tree for them to stay away from, there is also the thought, that they being debarred from such knowledge was paramount in maintaining their innocence which was in God's design for mankind.

God didn't send "the most corrupt thing in His Creation into the garden". Satan came to it of his own volition & in his plan.

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Carlos, thank you for your comments: it seems that we are narrowing down in our understanding on this. So, I do agree that the potential was there for all creation to be susceptible to corruption, so I will focus now on 'defining perfection'.

Of course, we must agree to the fact that God Himself is Perfect in every way. Could we dare say that He could be corrupted? God forbid to even suggesting this, except for this purpose of understanding the matter. Therefore, he made man (& the heavenly host) in perfection (i.e. in a perfect world & man from 'perfect' dust). I can't fathom that any of God's creative Work could be anything else than perfect, or God (as we know Him from the Word) isn't God. Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw.

You said, "They (A & E) were not created perfect because, from my perspective, something perfect, free will or not, would not make the wrong choices". We're made in God's Image & by His Hand. But He gave us as part of that Design, the ability to choose, as is a part of His Nature. Has God the power of choice? Yes. If that were not so, Adam/Eve would just obey God unquestioningly, going about their earthly business & routine without ever making decisions over anything that came up to them: true perfection indeed! But God's design included the ability to choose & Satan seeing this, came to 'road test' this Divine Work (I think of Job, as well). Did God bring Satan? No, Satan did according to his charater: to oppose the Most High & all that are associated with Him. (onto Page 2)

P2..from P1.

Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Lk 24:26, 44, Rom 8:3, Heb 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.

Heb 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Heb 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...

The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.

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4. "Was (Satan in Eden) it to test Adam's loyalty?" No. Satan came of his own volition to attempt corruption of man. God didn't put man in that situation to test him, but to warn him of partaking of the Tree of KoGaE, so that innocence would perpetually be his/her character. What Satan then did subsequently, was of his doing & not a test from God.

5. "The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation." You cited Heb 7:11; 10:1 in relation to perfection. I understand your correlation of Perfection with Maturity, & this is true in the case of the believer striving for perfection = maturity in Christ. But how do you correlate this Perfection with the lack of Maturity in A & E? I can't see the connection. If man was made perfect by God, nothing else is involved (e.g. no maturity, no analysis skills, no forecasting abilities based on evidence around, indeed, not knowing what is good & what is evil). A perfect human creation is just that: perfect in itself, though not necessarily having the identical personhood & character of the Creator.

Chris, on your Point 4, Satan was in Eden because God put him there when God expelled Satan and his Angels to the earth. The question remains:

1. Why did God banish Satan to the Earth? Or perhaps,

2. Why did God Create Man on the Earth if He had sent Satan to the Earth?

3. Why not keep Satan as far away from His pinnacle of creation, as possible?

4. Why run the risk of having Satan ruin God's perfect work, especially when God already knew (based on His

Omniscience) that Satan was going to ruin everything He did, anyway?

Can you imagine, it takes you a year of hard work and painstaking detail to build this great mansion on the river bank, and along comes this guy from the neighborhood and tears the whole thing down? What's worse, you knew he was going to do exactly that and you could not stop him. But if you knew that, why did you build the house there?

Is God helpless against the devil?

So, what is perfection? You gave a perfect definition of perfect. Something is Perfect when it is complete. It doesn't lack anything. When Christ returns and we are Transformed, we will be Perfect. Paul defines that as indestructible, incorruptible, immortal (having eternal life, if it is different), 1 Cor 15:35-54, with a Heavenly body. An earthly body is of the earth (material). A Heavenly body is forever.

The earthly was weak and limited. It was limited because it could not distinguish between good and evil. Now, did God create man in His image? That's what the Bible says. But what was missing? Would a perfect man, created in the image of God, lack anything? Was anything missing? Is it that God created man to sort of look like Him, but not exactly alike? So what was the problem with Adam and Eve being equipped with the knowledge of good and evil from the moment they were created? Why create them without that? What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have.

I drew a picture for my son when he was young. He didn't understand the soul.

God formed (mould) Adams body out of the dust: to get his sustenance from the earth (food, water, shelter). That's why dust returns to dust at death.

Made in Gods image, so connected spiritually. Enabled to receive Gods direction. (Name the animals, etc)

God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul: that reasons, feels emotions, solves problems, needs love.

I believe Adam and Eve were unprepared to meet the subtil (deceptive) Satan. I think the devil studied them to find an entrance.

Satan introduced doubt. She countered with what God had told them about the Garden.

Satan is evil & had the knowledge: he tells her she will surely not die and 3 more reasons. Tempted with the curiosity of the food and knowledge, she tastes it and shares it with Adam.

God could have had Satan hurled elsewhere but He didn't. It would have negated the FREE WILL he had given to Adam and Eve.

God had to send them out of the Garden and move the Tree of Life, because if they ate of that they would live eternally in a good or evil state of being with free will. Adams status as a son of God was over! He was human, just like we are.

If we accept Jesus as Savior, in our fallen status; our souls will live Eternally with our Lord in heaven. Our transformed bodies will be returned to us at the instant we are CAUGHT UP to become the Bride of Jesus Christ, our Bridegroom. We have a wedding to attend.

Even more exciting if you are alive at that moment!

One of Jesus's names, is the Tree of Life.

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Onto Perfection: I just don't see that A & E's inability to discern between good & evil either weakened or limited them. Perfection (as I perceive it here), is His Creation of man to be pure/perfect in mind & body, & that purity involved total obedience to their Creator in perfect love & trust. There was no need for them to know what was good or evil, for their goodness & flow of spiritual energy lay in their unquestionable & in-dissolvable relationship to their Creator. Why then did they have the ability to choose? Maybe, & not just a Character of God, this was what gave them the 'humanness' of the creative Work & not just a robotic response, or a blind obedience, to God. So, we see a Perfect Creation, with the power to choose, but they would only choose obedience to God because of a pure heart & mind towards Him. Satan then enters in to 'work' on that opening to make them consider otherwise.

"What did the devil say to Eve? You will be like God. And what did God say? They are now in our image. They are like us; with knowledge they didn't have." ( Gen 3:22). Fully agree - that's what transpired. So this confirms that God had this knowledge (of good & evil), & correctly so, but A & E were prevented from it for the sake of innocence (for it seems that in God's definition, Innocence is a state where knowledge of good & evil or right from wrong, is not evident at all). I think of a baby: brought into this world in innocence (notwithstanding with a sin nature), but has the trait of 'choice'. Then there comes a time in that little one's life, where the need to choose arrives. It can make the right choice, but its sin nature dictates that soon the wrong one will also be made. What choices are made by the child? Wilful behaviour, coveting another child's toy, disobedience, are a few that come to mind. A & E, even in their unfallen 'youth', did not disobey, covet, or behaved wilfully. They used they God-given trait of choice & then, that's when it all fell apart.

Chris, I understand your argument and definition of Perfection. But we don't get to choose how we define things. Perfection has a definition all its own and it doesn't depend on a person's perspective or sentiment. Christ came to bring perfection. If He came to bring Perfection, it means we never had it.

1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain".

Isa 37:26, "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it; in days of old I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, that you should crush fortified cities into piles of rubble."

Eph 1:3-5, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will".

2 Timothy 1:9, "He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."

1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

God Planned and Prepared a Perfect Kingdom for us, before the Foundation of the World. And if He prepared perfection for us, what does it mean but that we never had it. Adam and Eve didn't have it and neither do we. Perfection was not coming until after Christ. It didn't come before Him. Heb 11:40, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." Heb 5:9, "And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation."

Only Christ was made Perfect. Adam and Eve were not.

Carlos, loved all the Scriptures you gave in evidence of God's Foreknowledge, Fore-ordination, Planning, Choosing, etc, & they are all valid as I understand those Scriptures as given. But our stumbling block, at least in this matter, lies with (not Christ), but with Adam & Eve. "Only Christ was made Perfect. Adam and Eve were not." I really don't think this exchange of thoughts on this matter can usefully proceed further, as our understanding of Perfection is 'slightly' different. I say, 'slightly', as I think we both believe that God doesn't make errors in anything He does. You believe that His Plan in creating man/woman was for an imperfect creation that could then succumb to sin & hence their need for salvation to bring them back to perfection. I say, that His creation was perfect, but became corrupted because of choice. And choice is a valid characteristic of perfection. (see also Ezek 28:14,15: of the anointed cherub). Choice was also a characteristic of the Perfect Jesus: He had choices & temptations before Him; He chose correctly & resisted sin at every level & remained sinless. Therefore Carlos, I really don't think we can proceed further with this - it appears a dead end street for now. Thank you for your time on this one.

Page 2.

Nice description of "me building a mansion, etc." I agree, it would be very foolish of me to expend so much to have it all destroyed. I should have built it as far away as possible from this enemy (fortunately, I had insurance!) or made the mansion impregnable & unable to be destroyed, which I couldn't humanly do. Do you know why I still persisted in building this doomed mansion? I firstly wanted a beautiful home for my family to live in & to which my friends would be pleased to see & visit (i.e. I fulfilled my lifelong dream). I would protect it the best I could (alarms, cameras, etc). But my enemy came in with bulldozers in the night to do his evil deed. He succeeded, I was grieved but I knew my dream could not be thwarted. I rebuilt that which was broken, knowing full well that my enemy was lurking about with his bulldozer to strike again. However, this time, I did what many Americans do, have an arsenal of weaponry that makes an Iraqi army look like an ill-equipped bunch of boy scouts. If you get my drift Carlos, I speak of the coming of Christ & the spiritual weapons His Spirit has endued us with to fight the powerful, spiritual Enemy we face daily. So hopefully, my earthly enemy will take note & either back off, or if he is emboldened, the use of my armoury will strike where it hurts: his pride & spirit of hatred. (onto Page 3).

Nice story about building a mansion for your family. But if you build a house knowing it is going to be burned down by your neighbor and you purchase an insurance policy, knowing it will be burned down, so you can collect the insurance, I think that is called insurance fraud?

I wish you had made the story longer. I was really getting into it. You should publish a book of fiction. Unfortunately, I am asking for Scripture to support these arguments.

Finally, wouldn't it be wiser to just build the house where the enemy couldn't get to it? Or was that an impossibility? Was it an absolute necessity to build the house right smack in the middle of Satan's kingdom?