I know that Mathew 24 is all about the 2nd coming and NOT the rapture. That said; I wonder how Mathew 24:38 can be; because at the time of the 2nd coming, the world will be in such chaos that things can not be "normal" as the verse implies? I wonder if it refers to the Jews that have been protected during the 2nd half of the tribulation? Or even if it were to refer to the "goats", even they will be in complete chaos?
To everyone who responded to my initial question; Between some of your responses, coupled with an email dialog I had with a knowledgeable friend, here is my final thought including my friends previous email (this forum hit the character limit so I could only paste so much of his:
HI Jeff,
Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.
.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.
Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.
Thanks again,
Tim
Hi Tim
Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.
I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......
Tim Moriaty, you're right. Matt 24:37-38 are stating what conditions will be like prior to the Coming of Christ. However, it is tightly woven into Matt 24:29. Chapters 24-25 are a Warning. In that Warning, Christ happens to mention when we can expect His return, which is Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."
"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
It goes like this:
1. AntiChrist ascends to Power
2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)
5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture
There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
In Verse 30, the word "tribes" would show us that Jesus is talking about Jews. And then again in Verse 31, the gathering of the elect, that word "elect" is referring to Jews. It starts getting interesting beginning at Verse 33. Jesus says, So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. In Verse 34, the word "generation" is referring to a race of people. He's talking about Jews.
Now Verses 37-41 give us the preconditions to the coming of Christ. I find Verses 37-39 to be quite interesting, and I think this might tie in to what you are talking about. 37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
After God shut the door on the ark, how long was it until it started raining? One week! I see that as prophecy. After the door was shut on the ark, the unbelievers still didn't know the judgment was coming. But they were warned. Noah and His family were closed up and safe in the ark for a week before the judgment came upon the non-believing world. That is why it says they didn't know it until the flood came. The flood came and took them all away. It was life as usual until it came, and it was sudden, and it was quick, and it was unexpected.
For me, I see the parallel between the ark and Daniel's 70th week. I see believers being caught up to be safe with the Lord for that final week (7 yr. period) while the unbelievers are carrying on as usual until the judgment hits them, just like in the days of Noah being safe in the ark for 7 days until the flood came.
Well, I know I've rambled a lot here, but I just wanted to share my perspective and understanding of Matthew 24.
If Jews are all of Israel and they are the chosen people...then why did the Lord DIVORCE THEM?
Jeremiah 3:8 "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."
I would like to share with you my understanding of Matthew Chapter 24. Matthew Chapters 24 and 25 deal with the end-time prophecies. There are four sections in Chapter 24 that represent the 70th week of Daniel.
Section 1: "The Pains of Birth" Verses 4-14. Section 2: Matthew 24:15 is "The Pivotal Point." Section 3: Matthew 24:16-28, "The Perils of Tribulation." And then fourthly, Verses 29 to 31 is "The Promise of His Coming," given to us in Isaiah 13:10 and 34:4, Joel 2:10 and 3:15, 7:13, Isaiah 27:13, and Zechariah 12:10.
Beginning at verse 3 of Chapter 24, the disciples are looking for answers as to when these things are going to happen. Jesus then begins answering, and from Verses 4-14, He gives the details of the first 3-1/2 years of the tribulation, known as the pains of birth. In Verse 15, we have the pivotal point, the abomination of desolation.
Then in Verse 16, we see that Jesus is talking to Jewish believers. Actually, I believe the entire Chapter is given to Jewish believers. But Jesus tells them to flee. Verses 16 to 28 talk about the perils of tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation period. It's going to be a very severe time.
Verse 22 is showing us that if God did not have a time period when He says okay I am going to stop, everybody would be wiped out.
But for the sake of the elect, a special word brought over from the O.T. as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. It doesn't mean they are all saved but they are His chosen people. He realizes there are 144,000 of them out there, plus all the others who believed, and this is something that is going to happen in the last part of the tribulation period.
Verses 29-31, we have the promise of His coming. I recently shared the actual 7 Steps of a Jewish Wedding. If we understand those 7 steps, it helps to understand the coming of Christ and some of the Jewish views about when Christ is coming back. Those steps are fascinating!
Chris, there are really 3 words. Plan, Purpose and Foreknowledge. Although they are all closely related, let me start with a definition Foreknowledge, although you're probably already familiar with it. I think, and I have adopted the position of the Reformers, because it is the most appropriate. Foreknowledge, as used in the Bible, is more closely associated with 'Pre-Ordination'. Acts 2:23 says God delivered Christ up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.
Some ascribe it to God's intuition or omniscience. But there are philosophical, theological and historical issues with it. What God knows will be a historical fact or event, He can't change. Why? Because if God knows something, He knows it to be fact. If God 'knows' Christ is going to die on the Cross and something, God Himself changes it, then He was mistaken. What we can say He knew is that Christ was going to be crucified, but He changed it to something else.
Instead, God tells us in Isa 44-48 that He can do things at that moment. So, God knows things about what is going to happen and He tells us about them, not because He is somehow intuitively aware of the Future, but because He planned it that way. That is how He wanted it to happen. Rom 8, Isa 46:10-13.
God doesn't just know beforehand what is going to happen, He makes it happen that way. When God said Esau would serve Jacob, He also said that's the way He intended it. That was His doing, not a natural consequence of events He just happened to be aware of beforehand. The argument is that limiting God to 'Foreknowledge' about the Future, limits Him. Why? Because He could only do what He knows He is going to do, not what He wants to do.
Acts 4:28, They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
That said, the fact that God is Omniscient cannot be denied or diminished. But to argue that 1,000 years is like a day, to support Omniscience, takes the verses out of context Ps 90:4. Reference is to speed of time.
Jesse, in addition to what I previously mentioned, the teaching that Matt 24, and no other Chapter in the NT, is for the Jews, is not supported by the narrative. Additionally, how many Jews that you know of read or pay attention to the words of Jesus? And if it were the case it was for Jews, why didn't Jesus say, "This is for the Jews. But I will be coming for you before that. So don't even worry about it."?
Jesus, Paul, Peter and John tell us about the Second Coming, but never mention a pre-appearance. Why? The only direct reference we have, and it comes from the Source Himself, Jesus, is in Matt 24:29. Jesus said, Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
If there is a Clandestine Appearance, Jesus and the rest of the Bible are totally silent on it.
Make a note of this. Every reference to Christ's return uses the same language; The Moon, Sun, Trumpet, Clouds, Gathering, Shout, White Robes, Saints, Thief in the Night: expressions associated with the Coming.
But why is knowing when Christ comes so important? Is it just information? It is important as a warning to the Church to prepare, to be ready, not just for His coming, but for the Tribulation. How often do we discuss what to do in case of ISIS- like persecution? How real are the beheadings of Christians throughout the world to us? That's one of the things Christians should be focused on. How will we handle persecution? What will we do? Where will we go for food and shelter if evicted? Or when police come for our children, as the Nazis did in the 1940's? Where do we hide? How will we proclaim Christ in that time of trouble? Will we defend ourselves with arms? Will we know who the other Christians are by the sign of a fish?
There is no more alarming call for the Church than Christ Himself telling us to Prepare for the coming Great Tribulation. And if they say Christ is here or there, don't believe them. That is the message of Matthew 24-25. Might He come after Passover Ch 26? Will there be churches?
I don't recall saying that Matthew Chapter 24 is the only chapter that was written for the Jews. However, I did say that the entire book of Matthew was written to the Hebrew/Jewish people, Matthew himself also being Jewish. I also know that from Hebrews to the end of Revelation, that section of the bible is known as Jewish Literature. I don't personally know any Jewish people myself, but I believe there are many who have come to know the Lord and I can only assume they read the words of Jesus. Did Jesus need to say this is for the Jews for us to know who He was speaking to? I don't see anywhere in His teachings where He says this is to the Gentiles either. I've already agreed with you that Christ's second coming is after the 7 Year Tribulation.
I still see the message Jesus is giving in Matthew 24 and 25 as being a warning to the nation of Israel, the Jews, to watch for those things. If I have Christ living in me, I have already been made ready. While the unbelieving world is going through a horrendous time of wrath on this earth, I will be at the wedding feast with the Lord until I return with Him at His second coming. As I mentioned in my previous reply, we differ in our understanding of the timing of the rapture. I respect your view, and I'm not trying to convince you to change it. And in all fairness to you, I hope that you would not to spend too much of your time and effort trying to change my view.
My view can be changed, but it will take the Lord to change it. All I can do here is share my understanding with others. That's all any of us here can do. It is nice to have a forum where we can share our understanding, even if we don't agree with each other? God's word alone is truth. It's not what I say that is truth, and not what you say that is truth. I take what people say and I have respect for what they share, but I have an obligation to search the scriptures, and I do.
Well Jesse, let me tell you things God can use to change your mind. Or maybe He will change mine. I share your understanding of what Matthew says, but not that it is directed to Jews. Christ was speaking to His Disciples, therefore to all of us that follow Him. It is believed that the Gospel of Mark was written 1st and both Matthew and Luke used it as a basis for theirs, to include specific details. Matt 24 is the same as Lk 21 and Mark 13. But Paul, who spoke to the Gentile Churches, says exactly the same thing in 2 These 2. And the imagery in the OT, 1 These 4 and Revelation is the same concerning the Coming and the Rapture. You can't have the same events taking place for the Rapture, that are the same for the Coming, unless they are one and the same.
A mistake made is to think of the entire Tribulation period as the Day of the Lord or Day of Wrath. If you read Revelation carefully, the language identifies these at taking place at the last hour of the Great Tribulation. And if you outline the events, you find there is a progression of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of His Wrath that place the Bowls at the end of the end of the end. The Seals are opened and at the last Seal, Trumpets are introduced. Then at the last trumpet, the Bowls of Wrath are poured. So, Wrath doesn't embrace the entire 7 years period.
It is that last Bowl of Wrath, at the last Trumpet, in the last Seal, that we will be spared from. That's when we are called to meet Christ in the air. And as Bob Hilt pointed out, there are only 2 resurrections. Think about that.
Who would you say Matthew wrote his gospel to? I say he wrote it to the Hebrew/Jewish people. Yes, Christ was speaking to His disciples, but who were they, Jews or Gentiles? Yes, Mark was written first. Out of the 661 verses in Mark, Matthew has 500 of them, almost word for word. It shows that Matthew was following Mark's Gospel as a template for his writings. But he still wrote his gospel to the Jewish people. Matthew alludes to or presents over 60 references to the Old Testament, more than double of any other gospel writer because he is using these things to show the Jews that Jesus came, and he shows the fulfillment of the scripture that Jesus fulfilled, showing them, the Jews, that Jesus was the Messiah. There are so many things that Matthew wrote that only a Jew would be able to understand. During Jesus' 3 year ministry, do you think that all those who were following Him were a mixture of both Jew and Gentile? Were they even allowed to intermingle together at that time?
I believe the day of the Lord only covers the last 3-1/3 years, known as the Great Tribulation. And I do not think I ever said that God's wrath embraces the entire 7 year period. As for resurrection, I know Lazarus was resurrected. When Jesus died and went into the lower parts of the earth, He took with Him all the believers that were in that part of Hades, Abraham's Bosom. I would see that as a resurrection. Here is my understanding. The Lord will come for His church, the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection), and then we which are alive with be caught up to meet them, and Him in the air. This is not the Lord's second coming. This is Him coming to remove His church from the wrath to come. At His second coming, He will literally step foot onto the Mount of Olives. That is His second coming. And He will rule and reign for 1,000 years. There will be another resurrection after the 1,000 year reign. That resurrection will be for the wicked. They will be cast into the lake of fire (Hell).
On your last paragraph, I would have to say I agree with 95%. The one thing I disagree with is it says UNTO the coming of the Lord and parousia means physical return. I know guys like David REagan say, "What, is it a yoyo rapture?"
Yes, that is what the Bible says. Those that are alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPTO or survive) UNTO the coming (parousia or physical return).
What are we surviving from if we are taken before it gets real bad?
Also the word klepto would have been used by the Holy Spirit instead of harpazo if there was a 'secret' rapture. But he used the word that means to seize, pluck, pull. Why? None of us would survive the wrath of God that starts to get poured out after Satan's wrath. In 70 AD God pulled the saved ones out of Jerusalem and had them go into the wilderness and they were protected right before Titus' army destroyed the city. Noah was protected in the flood. Lot taken out but still on the planet. Whether it is a pre-wrath rapture or post-trib (I lean toward post-trib), God has a certain number of us who will be martyred and some that will be protected. So whether He pulls us out and puts us in a safe place or pulls us out in a pre-wrath rapture, His will will be done. This is my take brother. It woudl be great if you can take my END TIMES survey on my youtube channel.
I'm not saying there isn't an Old Testament verse that talks about some going back into the land at some point. The Ethiopian and Eritrean Joos have been trying to migrate into Israel for about 10 years now and are rejected because they are black - a little hidden secret by many teachers. They are true blood Jews. I believe God started this work about 10 years ago so I believe we have no more than 30 more years before Jesus' return to set up His millennial reign.
The rapture had to take place no later than 1988 if 1948 is true. A Biblical generation is always 40 years or less. We have several passages in scripture with the number 40 in it. They are trying to now use a passage in Psalms out of context to make a generation 70 top 80 years. Ask Hal Lindsey and many others who predicted a pre-1988 rapture based on the 1948 Balfour Declaration (British/U.N.). Half the Joos live in America and most in New York City. They for the most part reject what goes on over there and many over there reject what is going on. That is why they predicted it. It is based on what they can see over what is really happening. Many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed once the 1950's hit and not by Muslims. I will leave it at that. Would God do that to His people?
Matthew 24 only says, "his disciples came to him" yet Mark 13:3 actually tells you the FOUR disciples that came to Him with their three questions. It wasn't all of them.
But the entire Bible is written to all people to learn from. Jesus even said, "Had you believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote of me." Most modern sects don't even believe the Old Testament all by itself even though Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies that are in the Old Testament. If they didn't believe Moses, and didn't believe Jesus, why would you think they are going to read Matthew?
Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that. I don't want people thinking that I am saying that certain parts of the bible are not important. People should hold the entire bible dear to their hearts.
I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone. I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.
I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appeciate that. Do you read Greek?
I am not a Greek-reader but have always used the original languages as tools IF NEEDED. Usually you don't need it if you read the passage in context. the KJB translators did a terrific job- 55 men of which one guy alone knew 12 or more languages fluently. You can't find scholarship close to that today. And that was one guys out of 55.
If you look up a greek or hebrew word and there is more than one possible meaning and there usually is in most cases and sometimes even twenty meanings, how do you know which one to use to interpret rightly?
1. Context.
2. See how that word is used in other passages that are similar.
Good examples is Dr. Thomas Ice, Professor at Liberty University and one of the biggest names in pre-trib teachers admitted that there isn't one clear verse that teaches a pre-trib rapture. Dr. John Walvoord,Tim Lahaye, and many others admit to this also. Anyhow, when a professor is so desperate to prove something they know they cannot prove Biblically even though they taught it to thousands of their students (Liberty U. is the largest Christian college in the world), they resort to craziness. Now he knows the Greek but chose to state that he thinks the word "apostasia" can also be used as a rapture or harpazo word. It's things like this as to why I left the teaching. God is not trying to trick us. He promised us tribulation, suffering and persecution IF we follow Him and if we live godly lives.
A one day old bible college person knows that word is ALWAYS used 1. in context as DEPARTING from the faith and leaving Jesus as many did and are named in the New Testament and that all the passages that have that word in it teach a departing form the faith. Thomas Ice has to answer to God some day even trying to use that. Most famous pre-trib teachers have come against him on that and rightfully so. But he and a few other guys are still trying to use it.
God Bless!
some of the dumbest people in the world know Greek and Hebrew and enough of it to be dangerous
Well, it looks like we have a dilemma. God has convinced you without a doubt of a post tribulation rapture, and He's convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Now what? We're both convinced, and we both believe we are convinced by God's word, so now what? That's a question that no one seems to be able to answer. Have you ever been convinced that God showed you something, and then later find out it was wrong? I have.
I don't think there is any proof on who wrote Hebrews. It wasn't until the 3rd century that the council of Carthage added Paul's name to the letter. But they had no proof of that. There are theories out there as to who it might be, and Paul's seems to be the most popular. But no one knows for sure. I don't see it being Paul. It was written too eloquently. It was not Paul's style of writing. Paul seemed to be all over the place in his letters. Plus, Paul usually attached his name to all his letters.
Hebrews had to have been written by a second generation Christian because of what the writer stated in Hebrews 2:3. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him. So whoever wrote Hebrews did not hear the Lord directly, nor did he receive from the Lord directly, but received and was confirmed and established for us, he being one of them, by those that heard Him.
Paul himself, as stated in Galatians 1:11-12 said, but I certify to you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man, for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. So Paul is not a second generation Christian. And whoever wrote Hebrews is a second generation Christian.
Jesse, excuse the intrusion as I don't want to join/add to the thread, but just wanted to comment on that excellent piece you've shared (over two pages). That was to the point & inspiring - thank you. I was particularly interested to learn of your 'proficiency' in Greek, which undoubtedly is standing you in good stead. And if your great ability in English is clearly seen, then we can take confidence in your reading & understanding of Greek.
As well, apart from our divergent views on, say, the Rapture, then we also have to add the type of manuscript being referred to & to non-Greek readers, which Lexicon is being used. I think of JWs & their understanding of John 1:1: we understand, from Textus Receptus as "..and the Word was God". JWs read in their New World Translation: "..and the Word was a god"; thereby removing the Deity of Christ. What an incorrect use of an article can do!! Blessings as you feed on the Word.
Another place that I wondered about for a long time, was the bible tells us that Judas repented. I used to think that since he repented, he probably was saved. But again, the Greek gave me a better understanding of that. Judas didn't repent like we understand repentance to be, making a decision to turn from sin, receive Christ, and have Him change and transform us. Judas repented (METAMELOMAI), which means he was sorry. But he did not repent (METANOEO), true repentance, making a decision to change the direction of his life. There are so many places in scripture like this where we see an English word and in English we know what that word means, but it's not the same word used in the Greek text. There are places in my bible where I will cross through a word and put the correct word from the Greek text in its place. I'm not saying the translators of the KJV put together a bad translation, as I believe it's the most accurate translation we have, and it is my bible of choice. I am careful not to remove words or add words because I know we are not to do that. What I change are areas like areas like I just mentioned, where I would scratch through the word love and either put in its place the word PHILEO, or AGAPE. It has helped me a lot. We read our English bibles, and there are so many words that we understand what they mean from an English standpoint, but sometimes we miss the true meaning because the Greek text uses a different word. Sorry for being long-winded.
Jesse, that was great reply, long, but certainly not long-winded. I won't do justice to your reply with my comments here, but your studies with your Pastor, though you were hesitant in the beginning, have clearly proved vital in your 'fuller' understanding & appreciation of the Word. That series of studies was certainly God-ordained for you at that time.
Your account of that unidentified person who gifted the TR copies to each one of you (for no small cost for sure), came home as a great truth of the Spirit's work. Our natural man seeks out recognition & applause, but the Spirit speedily whispers in our hearts that He is the One working in the lives (in that room) & you & I are only the tools in His Hands. All the praise & recognition goes to the Lord & not us.
And yes, Judas' repentance, I liken to a person of some renown caught out in a misdemeanour & apologizes with tears for it. Often is the case, that that apology has only come because he was caught out & not of contrition subsequent to committing the error. Much like Judas' repentance & grief. And I do always read your comments given out - I find them substantiating a lot of my beliefs & understanding of Scripture. Keep up the good work - by His Spirit, of course.
I would like to spend more time talking about Greek, but this is becoming longer that I wanted it to be. I have found it to be of help to me when I get stuck in certain areas of scripture. For instance, I often wondered why Jesus asked Peter three times, do you love me? I couldn't figure that one out. But then Peter gives a completely different answer the third time Christ asks do you love me. I was like "what's that all about?" But when I went to the Greek, I saw that when Jesus said three times do you love me, he used a completely different word for love the third time. It brought so much clarity to me. I then realized that the first two times Jesus asked do you love me, the word he used for love (PHILEO) had to do with human love. The third time, Jesus used the word AGAPE, the love that can only be produced by God's Spirit. It made perfect sense why Peter gave a different answer the third time. Peter gave the proper response the third time. Peter said "Thou knowest!" That is the most proper response we can ever give the Lord, thou knowest. The Lord knows our hearts. He told Peter he would deny Him three times. Peter said he would never deny the Lord. So when Jesus asked Peter the third time, do you love me, do you AGAPE me, Peter wasn't going to make the same mistake again.
Finally, I gave in, probably so he would get off my back. Other than receiving Christ 23 years ago, that was probably one of the best life choices I ever made. Not only was I attending every Tuesday night for the Greek Bible Study, but after a year of going to the Greek study, the pastor started teaching a Thursday night New Testament study, lecture-type study, which I was attending also. The pastor has two Doctorates Degrees in biblical studies. He taught and trained those who were going into the ministry. He taught both Greek and Hebrew at the Masters International School of Divinity. Anyways, to make a long story longer, I started to struggle keeping up with both the Tuesday night Greek class, and the Thursday night New Testament study. I had to make a choice which one to keep going to. I chose the N.T. study. That study went for almost 3 years. He told us that what we were getting was more than what many pastors get in Bible College. He said that in Bible College, people were only required to take certain electives, and many would get through without having to take the entire bible. I don't know if that's true. I never went to Bible College.
Now back to the Greek. We had a class of 23 people. One evening at the start of the class, the pastor handed out brand new in the box copies of the Textus Receptus to each one of us. I thought they were just for use in the class, but after he finished handing them out, he said that someone in the class purchased them all. There was no one to thank because to this day, only the pastor knows who bought them. The person did not wish to be known. Had it of been me, I would have raised my hand and said "Yea, I bought those for you all." It never really hit me until one day I was in Matthew Chapter 6, and I came to realize that anything the Lord leads me to do for someone, if I seek for recognition and praise from men, that's my reward right then and there. The Lord will not reward me for it later.
First of all, thank you. And you're not intruding at all. I welcome you into any of my conversations, whether it's to add something I may have missed, or letting me know that I may be derailing from the track. Sometimes, when I stop and think about the things I share, it scares me more than you can imagine. For me, it's like what if the things I share cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble. I've shared things with people in the past that I believed to be true, and later come to find out I shared some bad information. All I could do was pray that the Lord would find those people and show them that what I told them was wrong. Where I am as far as Greek goes, I would not say that I am proficient enough to teach it. I would say that I can teach someone how to read Greek, but there's so much more that goes with it that I am still learning myself. I do hope to get there in maybe a year or two, Lord willing. The Lord may have other plans for me, who knows? I began years ago by looking up Greek words while I was studying. Later on, I purchased an Interlinear Bible which had Greek, Hebrew, and English. I was never much interested in learning Hebrew, although I have learned some, but very little. Hebrew is also a general language, much like English. How I got started learning Greek almost never happened. A close friend of mine who fellowshipped at a small community church who's pastor taught Greek was holding a Tuesday night Greek Bible Study. His pastor was the one teaching, not my friend. But I had no desire to learn Greek and just the thought of it seemed nerve-racking to me. I do not consider myself to be the most intelligent guy on the block. I was invited multiple times to go, and each time I made up some excuse.
I was just curious if you read Greek. I read koine Greek. It's helped me a lot in my studies. Who knows, I might be one of those people you describe as knowing just enough to be dangerous. I own a copy of the Textus Receptus and I read it from time to time. There's no English at all in it, and you may already know that. I'm no master of the Greek language by any means but I can read it. For that matter, I'm no master of the English language either.
English is such a general language, much like Hebrew. That's why I believe people can't agree with each other on what the English text is saying, because the English language can be interpreted in different ways. Greek is probably the most exact language there is. I think God chose that language for the New Testament for a reason. I wish they would have made it a requirement for everyone going into the ministry that they would have to master the Greek language before they would be able to teach from the pulpit. It's almost impossible to come up with different meanings from the Greek.
Well, I'm not sure how a Greek scholar can confuse Apostasy with Rapture. I would have called him out on that one.
The reason I asked you about the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 is because you brought up a point about the time frame 1948-1988, and people looking for the rapture in 1988. Many people thought that since Israel became a nation in 1948, and to them, generation meant 40 years, so the rapture must be 1988. But actually, the word generation itself has no association with years at all, unless you put the years with it. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.
YOU: And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appreciate that. Do you read Greek?"
Me: "This generation" means THIS generation. It would have to be THOSE THAT WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME JESUS SPOKE THAT. MANY WERE ALREADY OLD. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO THE WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE, it was 40 years. And then we have history showing it below form 30 AD to 70 AD. That THIS is the antecedent and WHO Jesus was speaking of. Yes, 40 is standard Bible numbering. 40 can mean trials, temptations. Children of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus 40 days on the mount being tempted of the devil. Moses goes up 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, comes down breaks all ten commandments (pun intended when he threw the tablets), went back up another 40 days.
Moses at age 40 decides to follow God and not Pharoah.
Moses kilsl the Egyptian and goes on the backside of the desert for 40 years before comiing to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Moses dies 40 more years later.
There are other passages.
Historically speaking, Jesus died in 30 AD, gave Judah 40 more years to repent (those who didn't receive Him as the Messiah) before judgment came int he Great Revolt.
There are more examples.
Three rules in proper exegesis, CONTEXT. CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Jesus was speaking to that generation in 3 previous chapters all about the same thing. There is no way to get around it. There are three different WORLDS in chapter 24 which changes the whole meaning that pre-trib tries to do. What happened in 70 AD is going to happen again- at least that is my take on it but it will be persecution on a worldwide level. I call this the Dual Prophecy method. In other words, futurism, historicism, preterism and partial preterism all have some truths. Much of Matt. 24 was fulfilled but some things will be and on a greater scale.
I read something once that 'this generation' had something to do with the fig tree blooming. I'll have to study that again. I don't think it has to do with Jesus's generation.
It has something to do with the Return. Israel gained Statehood in 1948. Gained freedom in the 6 day War. I'm not sure if there's an official date of the Jews returning from the dispersion?
I remember something about 1918 too. I was trying to pray about that date.
I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
YOU: I remember something about 1918 too. I was trying to pray about that date.
ME: Not sure what you mean by that unless you are speaking of the Balfour Declaration or The Bolshevik Revolution which destroyed Christian Russia and plunged the world into communism. I won't say what race of people were mainly behind that. Look it up for yourself. You will be shocked.
YOU: I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
ME: Emblem goes back to the 1850's if not way back to paganism. Actually the STar of David is either the pagan Star of Remphan in the Book of Acts brought back to life or it started in the 1850's under the Rothschild Family which means Red Shield or something like that. David never had a star. Also the hexagram is one fo the two highest symbolism in satanism which you can find in any witch craft book. Why would any church have a flag like that on their property? Lord Rothschild is the one who built the Supreme Court building in 1993 in Israel that has the huge Illuminati pyramid with the eye of Horus (pagan Egyptian god). The ones running that country since 1948 is not who Christians in America think. You can google image this in two seconds. Anything I say can be verified. I don't get paid for giving truth out. It has cost me much over the last 10 years.
I'm telling you pre-trib is as false. They are helping bring antichrist on the scene with this teaching and even donating money to build a third temple. We ARE the temple of God. Helping animal sacrifice begin again is an abomination against Christ Himself and many Christians may not enter heaven over this. It's as if they never read the Book of Hebrews one time. This is a grave sin. God stopped the rebuilding in 363 AD with tornadoes, fire coming from underneath and earthquakes as has been attested to by church fathers, historians, Emperor Julian himself, and a few pagans. YOu can confirm everything. Blessings
If you are familiar with The Great Revolt of 70 AD, many false prophets arose in Jerusalem that convinced the unsaved Jews that God was with them. They were killing each other inside the walls while Rome was on the outside. These men were known as The Zealots. They even burned up a bunch of the food surplus to force the rest of the Jews to fight against the Roman army. This was disastrous and about 50% of the world population of the Jewish people died in that war and 90,000 or so sold into slavery. If you go by per capita, it was much worse than the holocaust. Some were eating their children for food. It is important what we teach. There are consequences to false teaching. Evolution is a big one- Eugenics and abortion evolved out of that false science. Billions have been killed over just this ONE false idea.
Doctrine is very important and if it, like pre-trib, has a track record of ruining lives something is wrong.
How many Christians in the 1970's, and 1980's did little with their lives because they were told Jesus would return by 1988? I can go on and on with this stuff. They could have born more fruit for the kingdom had they left it in God's hands.
Hey, I love you in Jesus. Don't doubt that. If I am hard on something like false doctrine, bare with me if I come off in comments as a hard person. It is more like righteous anger. If you met me in person, I would bless you.
YOU SAID: "So you don't like me? We're commanded to love one another, by Jesus.
Your objections are with My Advocate. He will decide this."
ME: Of course I like and love you if you are a brother in the Lord and IF YOU ARE MY ENEMY. It doesn't stop with loving just brothers and sisters in Christ. Why wouldn't I? What makes you say that? I think you may have misunderstood something I said. Please give me the chance to explain myself in case I did say something wrongly. If I am wrong, I will repent.
Unless you are a pastor and teaching the pre-trib doctrine AS TRUTH and not a theory when it was never taught until 1830 and based on a 15 year old girl's vision and prophetic utterance, that is something you will have to deal with the Lord on and I would call you to repentance then. Why did you say that? I like all people, all races, all colors, all ethnicities. I DON'T like people teaching false doctrine because souls are lost from it.
Souls were lost in 1844 at The Great Disappointment when many lost their faith because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Souls were lost in the 1930's because brother began to betray brother in China because they were taught pre-trib rapture doctrine and communism became their politics over there.
These are facts.
50 to 100 cults arose out of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. I will name a few. House of Yahweh, 7th Day ADventism, Jehovah Witnesses, Branch Davidians.
Can you show me ONE piece of good fruit from this doctrinal tree? I can show hundreds of bad fruit because I learned it's history, the things pastors and teachers all across America hid from me and millions of others. Jesus said a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Even TEN cults coming out of an ideology or theory is enough bad fruit.
Love you bro. Please make this right before God, you and me.
Are you saying that believing in a Pre-Tribulation rapture can lead to a true genuine born again believer to lose their faith and their soul? These "Souls that were lost," were these saved people?
They were supposedly onfire people. So onfire that they (1844 incident; known as the Millerite Movement and this day was called The Great Disappointment) quit their jobs and sold their belongings. Didn't you ever hear of this? This is only 14 or so years AFTER pre-trib began being taught. Only God knows if some had a false conversion but I highly doubt they were all false converts. Pastor William Miller was a Baptist preacher.
The Bible does teach that there will be a falling away (apostasy) in the end times. Jesus also gave warnings at the time of the 7 churches of Asia Minor that everyone wants to ignore especially the one where He talks about blotting names out. Here you go. You can reinvent the verse if you want. I am not. It says what it says and plain as day.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
It's what Jesus taught. I ignore what most pastors teach when they teach the opposite of what Jesus taught. This is a very clear verse and it is given to people who DID come to Christ and this warning was also given (verse 6) to the other churches. I don't try to reinterpret 'clear' verses. These churches DID exist. They existed in the first two centuries. They are not an extra 7 dispensations on the other 7 to 10 dispensations. Some pre-tribbers actually believe in 14 to 17 dispensations if they add these churches as extra dispensations. It still doesn't change what it says.
Blessings!
Some are already converting to Judaism in the Hebrew Roots Movement.
We had the Emergent Church Movement rise up and really take hold over the last 15 years.
Purpose Driven Movement.
Seeker Friendly Movement.
Just to name a few movements. Got any Pepto Bismol? If there are any more movements, I might need some.
I was doing a whole big study on Lucifer because there's so much schism about it.
But now I think there's too much Bible left in the New Testament alone, that deserves as much comment and explanation to 2020's people. Just today I ran over my favorite dog (spirits) verse, but I lost it again :/ kinda brutal.
You partially answered my question, so I'll take what I can get. I have heard of the Millerites. But don't know much about them as I never took the time to do any research on that group. Also, I've heard of people being "on-fire" for the Lord. What I have learned over the years, is that most of the people who are "on-fire" people are new believers. I'm not even sure how I would describe someone being on-fire for the Lord? I remember when I was a kid growing up, I walked by a church that had the side door open and inside there were people flailing their arms around, jumping up and down, and screaming things I couldn't understand. It definitely wasn't English. I was pretty young so it scared me. There are things that stick with you your entire life, and that was one of them. I guess you can say they were "on-fire" for the Lord. I've also seen people in church that seemed to be on-fire for the Lord, but that fire seemed to be quenched as soon as they left the parking lot, and they didn't get it back until the following Sunday.
So when I hear of someone being on fire, that does not tell me much because I've seen people on fire burn out and leave after a few months and no longer want anything to do with the Lord. So being on-fire for the Lord does not really prove a person is truly saved. The parable of the sower comes to mind.
If any of those people were saved and had their names recorded in the Lambs book of life, then they remained saved. But only the Lord knows for sure. Thank you for your response.
There is no reason to say the people Jesus was talking to weren't saved. I'm sure there were false converts back then too but the warning is to those whose names were already written in the book of life if they didn't repent.
In the parable of the sower doesn't it say, "and they BELIEVED for a while but when persecution arose for the word's sake, they were offended..."?
they didn't count the cost. Back around 60 to 70 AD, the Romans ran out of trees to crucify Jews on. When Jesus told his disciples to "take up your cross and come follow me", they knew exactly what could happen to them. In North Korea, they tell them if you come to Christ, it may cost you your life tomorrow. totally different than the gospel we have been given in America. This is why I am so concerned about the pre-trib teaching. It has no real warning to those. We are one of the few nations that havent' suffered real persecution. I have had a lot and mostly from churches but I evangelize quite a bit. Some have been put in prison like Kent Hovind was unjustly in 2005 for ten years in Florida. Very few have suffered anything. I hope you subscribe to my channel as I am going to show how many passages have been taken out of context or words added to the verses that are not there in the original languages to make it fit the pre-trib teaching. This is very deceptive. I care about you Jesse. You seem to be a great guy and very sound on a lot of issues. God Bless. I am sure we will talk again sometime.
You partially answered my question, so I'll take what I can get. I have heard of the Millerites. But don't know much about them as I never took the time to do any research on that group. Also, I've heard of people being "on-fire" for the Lord. What I have learned over the years, is that most of the people who are "on-fire" people are new believers. I'm not even sure how I would describe someone being on-fire for the Lord? I remember when I was a kid growing up, I walked by a church that had the side door open and inside there were people flailing their arms around, jumping up and down, and screaming things I couldn't understand. It definitely wasn't English. I was pretty young so it scared me. There are things that stick with you your entire life, and that was one of them. I guess you can say they were "on-fire" for the Lord. I've also seen people in church that seemed to be on-fire for the Lord, but that fire seemed to be quenched as soon as they left the parking lot, and they didn't get it back until the following Sunday.
ME: I actually got saved at a pentecostal church. Some of the stuff going on today in many of those churches might be kundalini. Actually an old grandma praying for the lost her whole Christian walk and sometimes that is all a person is able to do is equally as on-fire as a person preaching the gospel with the anointing.
YOU:
So when I hear of someone being on fire, that does not tell me much because I've seen people on fire burn out and leave after a few months and no longer want anything to do with the Lord. So being on-fire for the Lord does not really prove a person is truly saved. The parable of the sower comes to mind.
ME: A fire can burn low for sure. Jesus tells those of us to come back to your first love.
Thanks for that piece of scripture. Part of my question was about a person losing their soul, not falling away from the faith. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
this seems plain that our names can be blotted out of the book of life. If it was already written in, it can be blotted out it seems.
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Moses pled for the Children of Israel in this instance
Exodus Chapter 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Seems not all names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
You seemed to dodge my question, probably unintentional I'm sure, but I'll ask it again. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?
My response to Revelation 3:5: "He that overcomes" is called a Present Participle, which denotes continuous action. It doesn't stop! It's to the one who is overcoming. It is a continuous action. We are overcoming, and we will overcome because we have Christ in us, and He overcame!
To the one who is overcoming, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Christ has promised not to blot anyone that overcomes from out of the book of life. Again, that is a Present Participle. It is a continuous action. Those who truly belong to Christ are the ones who overcome, and they will not be blotted out.
Also, there are references in the O.T. that indicate more than one book of life. The Jews understand that. There was a book of life that every person's name was recorded in when they were physically born. When a person rejects Christ, they will be blotted out of that book, as though they were never born. And then there is the Lamb's book of life which records the names of everyone who has been born of His Spirit. Jesus promises that He will never blot anyone out of the Lamb's book of life. A person who is saved will never be blotted out!
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment to start a new comment thread.
Enter new comment
HI Jeff,
Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.
.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.
Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.
Thanks again,
Tim
Hi Tim
Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.
I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......
Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."
"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
It goes like this:
1. AntiChrist ascends to Power
2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)
5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture
There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
Tim,
In Verse 30, the word "tribes" would show us that Jesus is talking about Jews. And then again in Verse 31, the gathering of the elect, that word "elect" is referring to Jews. It starts getting interesting beginning at Verse 33. Jesus says, So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. In Verse 34, the word "generation" is referring to a race of people. He's talking about Jews.
Now Verses 37-41 give us the preconditions to the coming of Christ. I find Verses 37-39 to be quite interesting, and I think this might tie in to what you are talking about. 37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
After God shut the door on the ark, how long was it until it started raining? One week! I see that as prophecy. After the door was shut on the ark, the unbelievers still didn't know the judgment was coming. But they were warned. Noah and His family were closed up and safe in the ark for a week before the judgment came upon the non-believing world. That is why it says they didn't know it until the flood came. The flood came and took them all away. It was life as usual until it came, and it was sudden, and it was quick, and it was unexpected.
For me, I see the parallel between the ark and Daniel's 70th week. I see believers being caught up to be safe with the Lord for that final week (7 yr. period) while the unbelievers are carrying on as usual until the judgment hits them, just like in the days of Noah being safe in the ark for 7 days until the flood came.
Well, I know I've rambled a lot here, but I just wanted to share my perspective and understanding of Matthew 24.
Jeremiah 3:8 "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."
Tim,
I would like to share with you my understanding of Matthew Chapter 24. Matthew Chapters 24 and 25 deal with the end-time prophecies. There are four sections in Chapter 24 that represent the 70th week of Daniel.
Section 1: "The Pains of Birth" Verses 4-14. Section 2: Matthew 24:15 is "The Pivotal Point." Section 3: Matthew 24:16-28, "The Perils of Tribulation." And then fourthly, Verses 29 to 31 is "The Promise of His Coming," given to us in Isaiah 13:10 and 34:4, Joel 2:10 and 3:15, 7:13, Isaiah 27:13, and Zechariah 12:10.
Beginning at verse 3 of Chapter 24, the disciples are looking for answers as to when these things are going to happen. Jesus then begins answering, and from Verses 4-14, He gives the details of the first 3-1/2 years of the tribulation, known as the pains of birth. In Verse 15, we have the pivotal point, the abomination of desolation.
Then in Verse 16, we see that Jesus is talking to Jewish believers. Actually, I believe the entire Chapter is given to Jewish believers. But Jesus tells them to flee. Verses 16 to 28 talk about the perils of tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation period. It's going to be a very severe time.
Verse 22 is showing us that if God did not have a time period when He says okay I am going to stop, everybody would be wiped out.
But for the sake of the elect, a special word brought over from the O.T. as a title for the Jewish people. They are His elect people. It doesn't mean they are all saved but they are His chosen people. He realizes there are 144,000 of them out there, plus all the others who believed, and this is something that is going to happen in the last part of the tribulation period.
Verses 29-31, we have the promise of His coming. I recently shared the actual 7 Steps of a Jewish Wedding. If we understand those 7 steps, it helps to understand the coming of Christ and some of the Jewish views about when Christ is coming back. Those steps are fascinating!
Some ascribe it to God's intuition or omniscience. But there are philosophical, theological and historical issues with it. What God knows will be a historical fact or event, He can't change. Why? Because if God knows something, He knows it to be fact. If God 'knows' Christ is going to die on the Cross and something, God Himself changes it, then He was mistaken. What we can say He knew is that Christ was going to be crucified, but He changed it to something else.
Instead, God tells us in Isa 44-48 that He can do things at that moment. So, God knows things about what is going to happen and He tells us about them, not because He is somehow intuitively aware of the Future, but because He planned it that way. That is how He wanted it to happen. Rom 8, Isa 46:10-13.
God doesn't just know beforehand what is going to happen, He makes it happen that way. When God said Esau would serve Jacob, He also said that's the way He intended it. That was His doing, not a natural consequence of events He just happened to be aware of beforehand. The argument is that limiting God to 'Foreknowledge' about the Future, limits Him. Why? Because He could only do what He knows He is going to do, not what He wants to do.
Acts 4:28, They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
That said, the fact that God is Omniscient cannot be denied or diminished. But to argue that 1,000 years is like a day, to support Omniscience, takes the verses out of context Ps 90:4. Reference is to speed of time.
Jesus, Paul, Peter and John tell us about the Second Coming, but never mention a pre-appearance. Why? The only direct reference we have, and it comes from the Source Himself, Jesus, is in Matt 24:29. Jesus said, Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
If there is a Clandestine Appearance, Jesus and the rest of the Bible are totally silent on it.
Make a note of this. Every reference to Christ's return uses the same language; The Moon, Sun, Trumpet, Clouds, Gathering, Shout, White Robes, Saints, Thief in the Night: expressions associated with the Coming.
But why is knowing when Christ comes so important? Is it just information? It is important as a warning to the Church to prepare, to be ready, not just for His coming, but for the Tribulation. How often do we discuss what to do in case of ISIS- like persecution? How real are the beheadings of Christians throughout the world to us? That's one of the things Christians should be focused on. How will we handle persecution? What will we do? Where will we go for food and shelter if evicted? Or when police come for our children, as the Nazis did in the 1940's? Where do we hide? How will we proclaim Christ in that time of trouble? Will we defend ourselves with arms? Will we know who the other Christians are by the sign of a fish?
There is no more alarming call for the Church than Christ Himself telling us to Prepare for the coming Great Tribulation. And if they say Christ is here or there, don't believe them. That is the message of Matthew 24-25. Might He come after Passover Ch 26? Will there be churches?
I don't recall saying that Matthew Chapter 24 is the only chapter that was written for the Jews. However, I did say that the entire book of Matthew was written to the Hebrew/Jewish people, Matthew himself also being Jewish. I also know that from Hebrews to the end of Revelation, that section of the bible is known as Jewish Literature. I don't personally know any Jewish people myself, but I believe there are many who have come to know the Lord and I can only assume they read the words of Jesus. Did Jesus need to say this is for the Jews for us to know who He was speaking to? I don't see anywhere in His teachings where He says this is to the Gentiles either. I've already agreed with you that Christ's second coming is after the 7 Year Tribulation.
I still see the message Jesus is giving in Matthew 24 and 25 as being a warning to the nation of Israel, the Jews, to watch for those things. If I have Christ living in me, I have already been made ready. While the unbelieving world is going through a horrendous time of wrath on this earth, I will be at the wedding feast with the Lord until I return with Him at His second coming. As I mentioned in my previous reply, we differ in our understanding of the timing of the rapture. I respect your view, and I'm not trying to convince you to change it. And in all fairness to you, I hope that you would not to spend too much of your time and effort trying to change my view.
My view can be changed, but it will take the Lord to change it. All I can do here is share my understanding with others. That's all any of us here can do. It is nice to have a forum where we can share our understanding, even if we don't agree with each other? God's word alone is truth. It's not what I say that is truth, and not what you say that is truth. I take what people say and I have respect for what they share, but I have an obligation to search the scriptures, and I do.
A mistake made is to think of the entire Tribulation period as the Day of the Lord or Day of Wrath. If you read Revelation carefully, the language identifies these at taking place at the last hour of the Great Tribulation. And if you outline the events, you find there is a progression of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of His Wrath that place the Bowls at the end of the end of the end. The Seals are opened and at the last Seal, Trumpets are introduced. Then at the last trumpet, the Bowls of Wrath are poured. So, Wrath doesn't embrace the entire 7 years period.
It is that last Bowl of Wrath, at the last Trumpet, in the last Seal, that we will be spared from. That's when we are called to meet Christ in the air. And as Bob Hilt pointed out, there are only 2 resurrections. Think about that.
I believe the day of the Lord only covers the last 3-1/3 years, known as the Great Tribulation. And I do not think I ever said that God's wrath embraces the entire 7 year period. As for resurrection, I know Lazarus was resurrected. When Jesus died and went into the lower parts of the earth, He took with Him all the believers that were in that part of Hades, Abraham's Bosom. I would see that as a resurrection. Here is my understanding. The Lord will come for His church, the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection), and then we which are alive with be caught up to meet them, and Him in the air. This is not the Lord's second coming. This is Him coming to remove His church from the wrath to come. At His second coming, He will literally step foot onto the Mount of Olives. That is His second coming. And He will rule and reign for 1,000 years. There will be another resurrection after the 1,000 year reign. That resurrection will be for the wicked. They will be cast into the lake of fire (Hell).
Yes, that is what the Bible says. Those that are alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPTO or survive) UNTO the coming (parousia or physical return).
What are we surviving from if we are taken before it gets real bad?
Also the word klepto would have been used by the Holy Spirit instead of harpazo if there was a 'secret' rapture. But he used the word that means to seize, pluck, pull. Why? None of us would survive the wrath of God that starts to get poured out after Satan's wrath. In 70 AD God pulled the saved ones out of Jerusalem and had them go into the wilderness and they were protected right before Titus' army destroyed the city. Noah was protected in the flood. Lot taken out but still on the planet. Whether it is a pre-wrath rapture or post-trib (I lean toward post-trib), God has a certain number of us who will be martyred and some that will be protected. So whether He pulls us out and puts us in a safe place or pulls us out in a pre-wrath rapture, His will will be done. This is my take brother. It woudl be great if you can take my END TIMES survey on my youtube channel.
I'm not saying there isn't an Old Testament verse that talks about some going back into the land at some point. The Ethiopian and Eritrean Joos have been trying to migrate into Israel for about 10 years now and are rejected because they are black - a little hidden secret by many teachers. They are true blood Jews. I believe God started this work about 10 years ago so I believe we have no more than 30 more years before Jesus' return to set up His millennial reign.
The rapture had to take place no later than 1988 if 1948 is true. A Biblical generation is always 40 years or less. We have several passages in scripture with the number 40 in it. They are trying to now use a passage in Psalms out of context to make a generation 70 top 80 years. Ask Hal Lindsey and many others who predicted a pre-1988 rapture based on the 1948 Balfour Declaration (British/U.N.). Half the Joos live in America and most in New York City. They for the most part reject what goes on over there and many over there reject what is going on. That is why they predicted it. It is based on what they can see over what is really happening. Many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed once the 1950's hit and not by Muslims. I will leave it at that. Would God do that to His people?
Matthew 24 only says, "his disciples came to him" yet Mark 13:3 actually tells you the FOUR disciples that came to Him with their three questions. It wasn't all of them.
But the entire Bible is written to all people to learn from. Jesus even said, "Had you believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote of me." Most modern sects don't even believe the Old Testament all by itself even though Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies that are in the Old Testament. If they didn't believe Moses, and didn't believe Jesus, why would you think they are going to read Matthew?
Thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. That is a whole lot to chew on, and I did read it all. First, I want to make myself clear. I never said that Matthew was written only for Jews. I said Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews. And yes, I agree that the entire bible is written to learn from. It's all God's word. I would not dare discard any of the books, as I find value in every book. I just wanted to clarify that. I don't want people thinking that I am saying that certain parts of the bible are not important. People should hold the entire bible dear to their hearts.
I think a lot of misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. But they're not. It sounds like you spent a whole lot of time (years maybe?) on just the rapture alone. I would have to assume that there are some who once believed in a post-trib and have changed their minds after spending years in careful study alike? I definitely appreciate your response and the time you put into it. However, I am still Pre-Trib.
I do have a couple questions if you don't mind. How are you 100% certain that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews? And when Jesus said "This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled," do you take that word generation as being applied to a number of years, or a race of people? You've shared some Greek words, and I appeciate that. Do you read Greek?
If you look up a greek or hebrew word and there is more than one possible meaning and there usually is in most cases and sometimes even twenty meanings, how do you know which one to use to interpret rightly?
1. Context.
2. See how that word is used in other passages that are similar.
Good examples is Dr. Thomas Ice, Professor at Liberty University and one of the biggest names in pre-trib teachers admitted that there isn't one clear verse that teaches a pre-trib rapture. Dr. John Walvoord,Tim Lahaye, and many others admit to this also. Anyhow, when a professor is so desperate to prove something they know they cannot prove Biblically even though they taught it to thousands of their students (Liberty U. is the largest Christian college in the world), they resort to craziness. Now he knows the Greek but chose to state that he thinks the word "apostasia" can also be used as a rapture or harpazo word. It's things like this as to why I left the teaching. God is not trying to trick us. He promised us tribulation, suffering and persecution IF we follow Him and if we live godly lives.
A one day old bible college person knows that word is ALWAYS used 1. in context as DEPARTING from the faith and leaving Jesus as many did and are named in the New Testament and that all the passages that have that word in it teach a departing form the faith. Thomas Ice has to answer to God some day even trying to use that. Most famous pre-trib teachers have come against him on that and rightfully so. But he and a few other guys are still trying to use it.
God Bless!
some of the dumbest people in the world know Greek and Hebrew and enough of it to be dangerous
Well, it looks like we have a dilemma. God has convinced you without a doubt of a post tribulation rapture, and He's convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture. Now what? We're both convinced, and we both believe we are convinced by God's word, so now what? That's a question that no one seems to be able to answer. Have you ever been convinced that God showed you something, and then later find out it was wrong? I have.
I don't think there is any proof on who wrote Hebrews. It wasn't until the 3rd century that the council of Carthage added Paul's name to the letter. But they had no proof of that. There are theories out there as to who it might be, and Paul's seems to be the most popular. But no one knows for sure. I don't see it being Paul. It was written too eloquently. It was not Paul's style of writing. Paul seemed to be all over the place in his letters. Plus, Paul usually attached his name to all his letters.
Hebrews had to have been written by a second generation Christian because of what the writer stated in Hebrews 2:3. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him. So whoever wrote Hebrews did not hear the Lord directly, nor did he receive from the Lord directly, but received and was confirmed and established for us, he being one of them, by those that heard Him.
Paul himself, as stated in Galatians 1:11-12 said, but I certify to you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man, for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. So Paul is not a second generation Christian. And whoever wrote Hebrews is a second generation Christian.
As well, apart from our divergent views on, say, the Rapture, then we also have to add the type of manuscript being referred to & to non-Greek readers, which Lexicon is being used. I think of JWs & their understanding of John 1:1: we understand, from Textus Receptus as "..and the Word was God". JWs read in their New World Translation: "..and the Word was a god"; thereby removing the Deity of Christ. What an incorrect use of an article can do!! Blessings as you feed on the Word.
Another place that I wondered about for a long time, was the bible tells us that Judas repented. I used to think that since he repented, he probably was saved. But again, the Greek gave me a better understanding of that. Judas didn't repent like we understand repentance to be, making a decision to turn from sin, receive Christ, and have Him change and transform us. Judas repented (METAMELOMAI), which means he was sorry. But he did not repent (METANOEO), true repentance, making a decision to change the direction of his life. There are so many places in scripture like this where we see an English word and in English we know what that word means, but it's not the same word used in the Greek text. There are places in my bible where I will cross through a word and put the correct word from the Greek text in its place. I'm not saying the translators of the KJV put together a bad translation, as I believe it's the most accurate translation we have, and it is my bible of choice. I am careful not to remove words or add words because I know we are not to do that. What I change are areas like areas like I just mentioned, where I would scratch through the word love and either put in its place the word PHILEO, or AGAPE. It has helped me a lot. We read our English bibles, and there are so many words that we understand what they mean from an English standpoint, but sometimes we miss the true meaning because the Greek text uses a different word. Sorry for being long-winded.
Your account of that unidentified person who gifted the TR copies to each one of you (for no small cost for sure), came home as a great truth of the Spirit's work. Our natural man seeks out recognition & applause, but the Spirit speedily whispers in our hearts that He is the One working in the lives (in that room) & you & I are only the tools in His Hands. All the praise & recognition goes to the Lord & not us.
And yes, Judas' repentance, I liken to a person of some renown caught out in a misdemeanour & apologizes with tears for it. Often is the case, that that apology has only come because he was caught out & not of contrition subsequent to committing the error. Much like Judas' repentance & grief. And I do always read your comments given out - I find them substantiating a lot of my beliefs & understanding of Scripture. Keep up the good work - by His Spirit, of course.
I would like to spend more time talking about Greek, but this is becoming longer that I wanted it to be. I have found it to be of help to me when I get stuck in certain areas of scripture. For instance, I often wondered why Jesus asked Peter three times, do you love me? I couldn't figure that one out. But then Peter gives a completely different answer the third time Christ asks do you love me. I was like "what's that all about?" But when I went to the Greek, I saw that when Jesus said three times do you love me, he used a completely different word for love the third time. It brought so much clarity to me. I then realized that the first two times Jesus asked do you love me, the word he used for love (PHILEO) had to do with human love. The third time, Jesus used the word AGAPE, the love that can only be produced by God's Spirit. It made perfect sense why Peter gave a different answer the third time. Peter gave the proper response the third time. Peter said "Thou knowest!" That is the most proper response we can ever give the Lord, thou knowest. The Lord knows our hearts. He told Peter he would deny Him three times. Peter said he would never deny the Lord. So when Jesus asked Peter the third time, do you love me, do you AGAPE me, Peter wasn't going to make the same mistake again.
Finally, I gave in, probably so he would get off my back. Other than receiving Christ 23 years ago, that was probably one of the best life choices I ever made. Not only was I attending every Tuesday night for the Greek Bible Study, but after a year of going to the Greek study, the pastor started teaching a Thursday night New Testament study, lecture-type study, which I was attending also. The pastor has two Doctorates Degrees in biblical studies. He taught and trained those who were going into the ministry. He taught both Greek and Hebrew at the Masters International School of Divinity. Anyways, to make a long story longer, I started to struggle keeping up with both the Tuesday night Greek class, and the Thursday night New Testament study. I had to make a choice which one to keep going to. I chose the N.T. study. That study went for almost 3 years. He told us that what we were getting was more than what many pastors get in Bible College. He said that in Bible College, people were only required to take certain electives, and many would get through without having to take the entire bible. I don't know if that's true. I never went to Bible College.
Now back to the Greek. We had a class of 23 people. One evening at the start of the class, the pastor handed out brand new in the box copies of the Textus Receptus to each one of us. I thought they were just for use in the class, but after he finished handing them out, he said that someone in the class purchased them all. There was no one to thank because to this day, only the pastor knows who bought them. The person did not wish to be known. Had it of been me, I would have raised my hand and said "Yea, I bought those for you all." It never really hit me until one day I was in Matthew Chapter 6, and I came to realize that anything the Lord leads me to do for someone, if I seek for recognition and praise from men, that's my reward right then and there. The Lord will not reward me for it later.
(Part 1)
First of all, thank you. And you're not intruding at all. I welcome you into any of my conversations, whether it's to add something I may have missed, or letting me know that I may be derailing from the track. Sometimes, when I stop and think about the things I share, it scares me more than you can imagine. For me, it's like what if the things I share cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble. I've shared things with people in the past that I believed to be true, and later come to find out I shared some bad information. All I could do was pray that the Lord would find those people and show them that what I told them was wrong. Where I am as far as Greek goes, I would not say that I am proficient enough to teach it. I would say that I can teach someone how to read Greek, but there's so much more that goes with it that I am still learning myself. I do hope to get there in maybe a year or two, Lord willing. The Lord may have other plans for me, who knows? I began years ago by looking up Greek words while I was studying. Later on, I purchased an Interlinear Bible which had Greek, Hebrew, and English. I was never much interested in learning Hebrew, although I have learned some, but very little. Hebrew is also a general language, much like English. How I got started learning Greek almost never happened. A close friend of mine who fellowshipped at a small community church who's pastor taught Greek was holding a Tuesday night Greek Bible Study. His pastor was the one teaching, not my friend. But I had no desire to learn Greek and just the thought of it seemed nerve-racking to me. I do not consider myself to be the most intelligent guy on the block. I was invited multiple times to go, and each time I made up some excuse.
English is such a general language, much like Hebrew. That's why I believe people can't agree with each other on what the English text is saying, because the English language can be interpreted in different ways. Greek is probably the most exact language there is. I think God chose that language for the New Testament for a reason. I wish they would have made it a requirement for everyone going into the ministry that they would have to master the Greek language before they would be able to teach from the pulpit. It's almost impossible to come up with different meanings from the Greek.
Well, I'm not sure how a Greek scholar can confuse Apostasy with Rapture. I would have called him out on that one.
The reason I asked you about the word generation used in Matthew 24:34 is because you brought up a point about the time frame 1948-1988, and people looking for the rapture in 1988. Many people thought that since Israel became a nation in 1948, and to them, generation meant 40 years, so the rapture must be 1988. But actually, the word generation itself has no association with years at all, unless you put the years with it. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.
Me: "This generation" means THIS generation. It would have to be THOSE THAT WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME JESUS SPOKE THAT. MANY WERE ALREADY OLD. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO THE WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE, it was 40 years. And then we have history showing it below form 30 AD to 70 AD. That THIS is the antecedent and WHO Jesus was speaking of. Yes, 40 is standard Bible numbering. 40 can mean trials, temptations. Children of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus 40 days on the mount being tempted of the devil. Moses goes up 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, comes down breaks all ten commandments (pun intended when he threw the tablets), went back up another 40 days.
Moses at age 40 decides to follow God and not Pharoah.
Moses kilsl the Egyptian and goes on the backside of the desert for 40 years before comiing to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Moses dies 40 more years later.
There are other passages.
Historically speaking, Jesus died in 30 AD, gave Judah 40 more years to repent (those who didn't receive Him as the Messiah) before judgment came int he Great Revolt.
There are more examples.
Three rules in proper exegesis, CONTEXT. CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Jesus was speaking to that generation in 3 previous chapters all about the same thing. There is no way to get around it. There are three different WORLDS in chapter 24 which changes the whole meaning that pre-trib tries to do. What happened in 70 AD is going to happen again- at least that is my take on it but it will be persecution on a worldwide level. I call this the Dual Prophecy method. In other words, futurism, historicism, preterism and partial preterism all have some truths. Much of Matt. 24 was fulfilled but some things will be and on a greater scale.
It has something to do with the Return. Israel gained Statehood in 1948. Gained freedom in the 6 day War. I'm not sure if there's an official date of the Jews returning from the dispersion?
I remember something about 1918 too. I was trying to pray about that date.
I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
(Not Moloch/Molech)
ME: Not sure what you mean by that unless you are speaking of the Balfour Declaration or The Bolshevik Revolution which destroyed Christian Russia and plunged the world into communism. I won't say what race of people were mainly behind that. Look it up for yourself. You will be shocked.
YOU: I do know that Israel's flag was adopted and displayed first time in 1948. I googled that. The emblem is about the Shield of David.
ME: Emblem goes back to the 1850's if not way back to paganism. Actually the STar of David is either the pagan Star of Remphan in the Book of Acts brought back to life or it started in the 1850's under the Rothschild Family which means Red Shield or something like that. David never had a star. Also the hexagram is one fo the two highest symbolism in satanism which you can find in any witch craft book. Why would any church have a flag like that on their property? Lord Rothschild is the one who built the Supreme Court building in 1993 in Israel that has the huge Illuminati pyramid with the eye of Horus (pagan Egyptian god). The ones running that country since 1948 is not who Christians in America think. You can google image this in two seconds. Anything I say can be verified. I don't get paid for giving truth out. It has cost me much over the last 10 years.
I'm telling you pre-trib is as false. They are helping bring antichrist on the scene with this teaching and even donating money to build a third temple. We ARE the temple of God. Helping animal sacrifice begin again is an abomination against Christ Himself and many Christians may not enter heaven over this. It's as if they never read the Book of Hebrews one time. This is a grave sin. God stopped the rebuilding in 363 AD with tornadoes, fire coming from underneath and earthquakes as has been attested to by church fathers, historians, Emperor Julian himself, and a few pagans. YOu can confirm everything. Blessings
Your objections are with My Advocate. He will decide this.
Doctrine is very important and if it, like pre-trib, has a track record of ruining lives something is wrong.
How many Christians in the 1970's, and 1980's did little with their lives because they were told Jesus would return by 1988? I can go on and on with this stuff. They could have born more fruit for the kingdom had they left it in God's hands.
Hey, I love you in Jesus. Don't doubt that. If I am hard on something like false doctrine, bare with me if I come off in comments as a hard person. It is more like righteous anger. If you met me in person, I would bless you.
Your objections are with My Advocate. He will decide this."
ME: Of course I like and love you if you are a brother in the Lord and IF YOU ARE MY ENEMY. It doesn't stop with loving just brothers and sisters in Christ. Why wouldn't I? What makes you say that? I think you may have misunderstood something I said. Please give me the chance to explain myself in case I did say something wrongly. If I am wrong, I will repent.
Unless you are a pastor and teaching the pre-trib doctrine AS TRUTH and not a theory when it was never taught until 1830 and based on a 15 year old girl's vision and prophetic utterance, that is something you will have to deal with the Lord on and I would call you to repentance then. Why did you say that? I like all people, all races, all colors, all ethnicities. I DON'T like people teaching false doctrine because souls are lost from it.
Souls were lost in 1844 at The Great Disappointment when many lost their faith because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Souls were lost in the 1930's because brother began to betray brother in China because they were taught pre-trib rapture doctrine and communism became their politics over there.
These are facts.
50 to 100 cults arose out of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. I will name a few. House of Yahweh, 7th Day ADventism, Jehovah Witnesses, Branch Davidians.
Can you show me ONE piece of good fruit from this doctrinal tree? I can show hundreds of bad fruit because I learned it's history, the things pastors and teachers all across America hid from me and millions of others. Jesus said a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Even TEN cults coming out of an ideology or theory is enough bad fruit.
Love you bro. Please make this right before God, you and me.
Are you saying that believing in a Pre-Tribulation rapture can lead to a true genuine born again believer to lose their faith and their soul? These "Souls that were lost," were these saved people?
They were supposedly onfire people. So onfire that they (1844 incident; known as the Millerite Movement and this day was called The Great Disappointment) quit their jobs and sold their belongings. Didn't you ever hear of this? This is only 14 or so years AFTER pre-trib began being taught. Only God knows if some had a false conversion but I highly doubt they were all false converts. Pastor William Miller was a Baptist preacher.
The Bible does teach that there will be a falling away (apostasy) in the end times. Jesus also gave warnings at the time of the 7 churches of Asia Minor that everyone wants to ignore especially the one where He talks about blotting names out. Here you go. You can reinvent the verse if you want. I am not. It says what it says and plain as day.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
It's what Jesus taught. I ignore what most pastors teach when they teach the opposite of what Jesus taught. This is a very clear verse and it is given to people who DID come to Christ and this warning was also given (verse 6) to the other churches. I don't try to reinterpret 'clear' verses. These churches DID exist. They existed in the first two centuries. They are not an extra 7 dispensations on the other 7 to 10 dispensations. Some pre-tribbers actually believe in 14 to 17 dispensations if they add these churches as extra dispensations. It still doesn't change what it says.
Blessings!
Some are already converting to Judaism in the Hebrew Roots Movement.
We had the Emergent Church Movement rise up and really take hold over the last 15 years.
Purpose Driven Movement.
Seeker Friendly Movement.
Just to name a few movements. Got any Pepto Bismol? If there are any more movements, I might need some.
I was doing a whole big study on Lucifer because there's so much schism about it.
But now I think there's too much Bible left in the New Testament alone, that deserves as much comment and explanation to 2020's people. Just today I ran over my favorite dog (spirits) verse, but I lost it again :/ kinda brutal.
:?D
You partially answered my question, so I'll take what I can get. I have heard of the Millerites. But don't know much about them as I never took the time to do any research on that group. Also, I've heard of people being "on-fire" for the Lord. What I have learned over the years, is that most of the people who are "on-fire" people are new believers. I'm not even sure how I would describe someone being on-fire for the Lord? I remember when I was a kid growing up, I walked by a church that had the side door open and inside there were people flailing their arms around, jumping up and down, and screaming things I couldn't understand. It definitely wasn't English. I was pretty young so it scared me. There are things that stick with you your entire life, and that was one of them. I guess you can say they were "on-fire" for the Lord. I've also seen people in church that seemed to be on-fire for the Lord, but that fire seemed to be quenched as soon as they left the parking lot, and they didn't get it back until the following Sunday.
So when I hear of someone being on fire, that does not tell me much because I've seen people on fire burn out and leave after a few months and no longer want anything to do with the Lord. So being on-fire for the Lord does not really prove a person is truly saved. The parable of the sower comes to mind.
If any of those people were saved and had their names recorded in the Lambs book of life, then they remained saved. But only the Lord knows for sure. Thank you for your response.
In the parable of the sower doesn't it say, "and they BELIEVED for a while but when persecution arose for the word's sake, they were offended..."?
they didn't count the cost. Back around 60 to 70 AD, the Romans ran out of trees to crucify Jews on. When Jesus told his disciples to "take up your cross and come follow me", they knew exactly what could happen to them. In North Korea, they tell them if you come to Christ, it may cost you your life tomorrow. totally different than the gospel we have been given in America. This is why I am so concerned about the pre-trib teaching. It has no real warning to those. We are one of the few nations that havent' suffered real persecution. I have had a lot and mostly from churches but I evangelize quite a bit. Some have been put in prison like Kent Hovind was unjustly in 2005 for ten years in Florida. Very few have suffered anything. I hope you subscribe to my channel as I am going to show how many passages have been taken out of context or words added to the verses that are not there in the original languages to make it fit the pre-trib teaching. This is very deceptive. I care about you Jesse. You seem to be a great guy and very sound on a lot of issues. God Bless. I am sure we will talk again sometime.
You partially answered my question, so I'll take what I can get. I have heard of the Millerites. But don't know much about them as I never took the time to do any research on that group. Also, I've heard of people being "on-fire" for the Lord. What I have learned over the years, is that most of the people who are "on-fire" people are new believers. I'm not even sure how I would describe someone being on-fire for the Lord? I remember when I was a kid growing up, I walked by a church that had the side door open and inside there were people flailing their arms around, jumping up and down, and screaming things I couldn't understand. It definitely wasn't English. I was pretty young so it scared me. There are things that stick with you your entire life, and that was one of them. I guess you can say they were "on-fire" for the Lord. I've also seen people in church that seemed to be on-fire for the Lord, but that fire seemed to be quenched as soon as they left the parking lot, and they didn't get it back until the following Sunday.
ME: I actually got saved at a pentecostal church. Some of the stuff going on today in many of those churches might be kundalini. Actually an old grandma praying for the lost her whole Christian walk and sometimes that is all a person is able to do is equally as on-fire as a person preaching the gospel with the anointing.
YOU:
So when I hear of someone being on fire, that does not tell me much because I've seen people on fire burn out and leave after a few months and no longer want anything to do with the Lord. So being on-fire for the Lord does not really prove a person is truly saved. The parable of the sower comes to mind.
ME: A fire can burn low for sure. Jesus tells those of us to come back to your first love.
What does the Bible say? 2 Timothy Chapter 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the (RAPTURE) resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
In other words they we being told they missed the rapture and their faith was overthrown.
This happened 1,900 years ago. Could it not happen again?
Thanks for that piece of scripture. Part of my question was about a person losing their soul, not falling away from the faith. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?
this seems plain that our names can be blotted out of the book of life. If it was already written in, it can be blotted out it seems.
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Moses pled for the Children of Israel in this instance
Exodus Chapter 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Seems not all names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
You seemed to dodge my question, probably unintentional I'm sure, but I'll ask it again. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?
My response to Revelation 3:5: "He that overcomes" is called a Present Participle, which denotes continuous action. It doesn't stop! It's to the one who is overcoming. It is a continuous action. We are overcoming, and we will overcome because we have Christ in us, and He overcame!
To the one who is overcoming, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Christ has promised not to blot anyone that overcomes from out of the book of life. Again, that is a Present Participle. It is a continuous action. Those who truly belong to Christ are the ones who overcome, and they will not be blotted out.
Also, there are references in the O.T. that indicate more than one book of life. The Jews understand that. There was a book of life that every person's name was recorded in when they were physically born. When a person rejects Christ, they will be blotted out of that book, as though they were never born. And then there is the Lamb's book of life which records the names of everyone who has been born of His Spirit. Jesus promises that He will never blot anyone out of the Lamb's book of life. A person who is saved will never be blotted out!