Carlos Ramirez Trevio on Matthew 24:29 - 4 years ago
To better understand Matthew 24, we should start by reading verses 29-30, then go back to the beginning. And as we read and examine the admonitions of Christ in this Chapter, we should keep reflecting on these two pivotal verses.
It is unquestionably the case, that Matthew is written for the followers of Christ. Whether the theme is the Jewish lineage of Christ or fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy, Matthew was written for the Believer.
And that is how the Chapter begins. Christ outlines the events preceding His Return and the end of the age. These are two conjunctive events that are dependent on eachother.
This is the only place in the entire Bible where it identifies a specific time for the Return of Christ. And it is Christ Himself who tells us, His Disciples, when He will Return.
First, He identifies several things that will happen. One is the spread of the Gospel throughout the world. Then the Revelation of the AntiChrist, as he sits in the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God.
Daniel 7-9, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13, among others, help put this in perspective for us. The Abomination, the AntiChrist enters the Temple to desecrate it, in the middle of the week. That is, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation.
The act that desecrates the Temple, initiates the Great Tribulation. That latter half of the 7 year Tribulation will last approximately 3 1/2 years more.
Then, Jesus emphasizes, then and only then, you will see me Return. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions. I will Return IMMEDIATELY AFTER all these things. Not before, AFTER. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation of those days.
Keep in mind that this is the only place in the entire Bible were we are given a specific time for the Return of Jesus. And it is Jesus Himself who tells us. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions.
After the Great Tribulation we will be gathered up to meet Jesus in the air. See similarities in language with 1 Thess 4 and others.
I agree with you that Matthew 24 is speaking about end time events. Both Chapters 24 and 25 give us the details. You've shared some good information here. The only thing I would see differently is that Jesus is giving us the specific details of a future event, but not giving us the specific time. We don't know the time, only the events that are coming.
Also, from your last statement, it looks like you are saying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation? Well, if we are still alive on this earth when that time comes, I want wish you luck. I plan on being raptured well before that time when God's wrath will be poured out in judgement on a non-believing world.
Jesse, I see your point. However, when I say we know the time, given that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that that day will not creep up on us like a thief, I mean that in Matthew 24:29, Jesus specifically says that He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days.
He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.
In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.
Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.
There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.
Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!
First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?
We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?
I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.
The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.
I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?
Jesse, to take up where I left off, Daniel 7-12 gives us a good picture of who the Restrainer is in 2Thess2:6. He says it is Israel. And he also states that Israel will be defeated when Persia comes against it. And that is what was holding the full flood of destruction against the Church and the Jews. Dan8:24 and 12:7, "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." Compare this to 2Thess2:6, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way." Whom does Daniel say will be shattered, destroyed and taken out of the way? The Jewish nation and the influence of the Church.
In any case, there is no reason to believe that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, since 2:6 is abundantly clear. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM.... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
As I previously mentioned, the AntiChrist doesn't sit in the Holy of Holies to proclaim himself God until the middle of the 7 years week. Daniel 7-12 and Matthew 24 make that clear. But the Rapture is not in the middle of the week. Jesus emphasizes He will come, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation Matt24:21, 29. The 7 years Tribulation begins. Three years into it, the AntiChrist crowns himself God in the Temple. "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never shall be."
What happens after the AntiChrist sits in the Temple? The Great Tribulation. Then what happens? Matt24, Daniel 7-12, 2Thess2. The Gathering. The Rapture. Therefore, according to what has been said in the cited passages, when is the Rapture?
Jesse, first of all, let me apologize for the 'hello'. I don't see where it is, but if it showed in the post you saw, it was totally unintentional. My intent is to have a proper discussion of the matter, not berate or belittle anyone. Capitalization is to highlight for emphasis.
First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.
So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.
However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Rev7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."
The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.
No apology needed. It just seemed sort of odd when I saw that because all your previous posts have all been very cordial. I have actually had that happen to one of my posts where things got added in that I did not type.
I think the most important thing concerning the rapture is that we both agree that there will be a rapture. We don't have to agree with each other on the time.
There are Pre/Mid/Post rapture believers and they all have scripture to back up why they take one of those three positions.
Like I said to Bob, I don't have an issue with whatever of the three positions someone chooses to take.
In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.
If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible
The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST
17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
In Rev. 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!
the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.
I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and I have never once made the claim that there is a second phase of the first resurrection listed in Revelation 20:4-6. Did someone tell you that? There is only one rapture of the church and it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and it takes place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. That is my understanding, and not just mine, but many others.
If you want to believe you will go through God's wrath during the tribulation period, if it happens during our lifetime, I don't have a problem with that. Really, I don't. I don't know why it would bother you that I believe in a pre-trib rapture? From my understanding in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us believers unto wrath, so I do not believe that God is going to pour His judgment out on any believer.
Again, if you believe you're going to be there when His wrath is being poured out, I don't have an issue with that. If I may ask, since you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, are you mid-trib, or post-trib? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with what you are saying. And I hope you are not accusing me of adding to the bible. You are also in disagreement with me, but I would never make such an accusation against anyone for simply disagreeing with my understanding.
Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?
In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation. If you find it let me know.
Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Jesse no one believed in pre trib until 1830 AD believe what you wish but it makes a difference. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt it. Question: How many million Christian died in communism the last 100 years?
Why is the rapture a hotly contested thing? That is a great question Bob. We could also ask why do we disagree on anything the Bible has to say? Believers disagree on all sorts of things that the Bible teaches.
I think disagreements become hotly contested when those in disagreement with each other take the attitude of "I'm right, and you're wrong." It's called human pride. We take our understanding of scripture and we turn ourselves into "Bible scholars." You know, it's like the "Thus saith Jesse," or "Thus saith Bob" approach.
I think another reason why believers disagree with each other so often is because we study our English bibles, and English is such a general language, much like Hebrew.
We can come away with multiple meanings on what the English text is saying because there are multiple meanings to English words. Honestly, I think that's why we have so many denominational churches out there. It's because people can't agree on what the English text is saying.
I think it was God's design that our New Testament be originally written in Greek. Greek is the most exact language there is, and you don't come away with multiple meanings on what the text is saying like we do with the English.
Anyways, that's my thoughts on your question.
I am curious though. If the Tribulation period comes in our lifetime, what will your role be during those 7 years? I don't think it will be to spread the gospel. God already has a plan for that. What will be your function on this earth when God's wrath is being poured out?
Jesse I suspect you do not understand the difference between judgment of the Church, the wrath of satan and the wrath of God. Please allow me to explain.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If anyone chooses to disbelieve that the woman here is the bride of Christ, that is on them. well if there is show me from the scriptures please I want to know.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE one in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
There is only one bride, there is not a Jewish bride and another Christian Gentile brideS
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Getting killed for Christ is not the wrath of God, otherwise Stephen, the prophets and the apostles who were killed suffered the wrath of God which is ridiculous.
Noah was saved in the flood, Daniel was saved in the Lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children were saved in the furnace.
God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked world, just like the plagues of Egypt. God's children did not suffer the plagues of Egypt and neither will his children in the tribulation who survive the wrath of the Satan.
You should do a little history on the fate of the millions of Christians murdered in Communist Russia under Stalin.
Bob Hilt, your observation of the two resurrections is an entirely new and logical argument for me. I had never heard it said that way. The point is well made. If it were not so, there would have to be at least, 3 resurrections. Great point! Thank you.
The Bible is replete with references to the Wrath of God. With reference to the End Times, what exactly is John referring to when he speaks of the Wrath of God?
Additionally, is there a relationship between the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord?
I agree. As we read the Bible, we come up with slightly different perspectives and one of those has to do with the time of the Rapture.
Please, show me your timeline of events recorded in Scripture about the End Time? I will list mine below. Please clarify. Thanks.
1. THE ANTICHRIST. Daniel 7-12
Daniel 9:27 - And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.
2. THE ANTICHRIST EXALTS HIMSELF OVER GOD IN THE TEMPLE.
Matthew 24:15 - when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation
3. THE GREAT TRIBUALTION.
Matthew 24:21 - at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world
Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 20:4 - I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the Beast.
4. THE COMING OF CHRIST and RAPTURE.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him
Matthew 24:3 - when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation
Daniel 7:13 - and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven
1 Thessalonians 4 - we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds
Mark 13:26 - At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.d And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
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It is unquestionably the case, that Matthew is written for the followers of Christ. Whether the theme is the Jewish lineage of Christ or fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy, Matthew was written for the Believer.
And that is how the Chapter begins. Christ outlines the events preceding His Return and the end of the age. These are two conjunctive events that are dependent on eachother.
This is the only place in the entire Bible where it identifies a specific time for the Return of Christ. And it is Christ Himself who tells us, His Disciples, when He will Return.
First, He identifies several things that will happen. One is the spread of the Gospel throughout the world. Then the Revelation of the AntiChrist, as he sits in the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God.
Daniel 7-9, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13, among others, help put this in perspective for us. The Abomination, the AntiChrist enters the Temple to desecrate it, in the middle of the week. That is, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation.
The act that desecrates the Temple, initiates the Great Tribulation. That latter half of the 7 year Tribulation will last approximately 3 1/2 years more.
Then, Jesus emphasizes, then and only then, you will see me Return. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions. I will Return IMMEDIATELY AFTER all these things. Not before, AFTER. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation of those days.
Keep in mind that this is the only place in the entire Bible were we are given a specific time for the Return of Jesus. And it is Jesus Himself who tells us. Don't be fooled, Jesus cautions.
After the Great Tribulation we will be gathered up to meet Jesus in the air. See similarities in language with 1 Thess 4 and others.
I agree with you that Matthew 24 is speaking about end time events. Both Chapters 24 and 25 give us the details. You've shared some good information here. The only thing I would see differently is that Jesus is giving us the specific details of a future event, but not giving us the specific time. We don't know the time, only the events that are coming.
Also, from your last statement, it looks like you are saying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation? Well, if we are still alive on this earth when that time comes, I want wish you luck. I plan on being raptured well before that time when God's wrath will be poured out in judgement on a non-believing world.
He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.
In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.
Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.
There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.
Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!
First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?
We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?
I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.
The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.
I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?
In any case, there is no reason to believe that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, since 2:6 is abundantly clear. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM.... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
As I previously mentioned, the AntiChrist doesn't sit in the Holy of Holies to proclaim himself God until the middle of the 7 years week. Daniel 7-12 and Matthew 24 make that clear. But the Rapture is not in the middle of the week. Jesus emphasizes He will come, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation Matt24:21, 29. The 7 years Tribulation begins. Three years into it, the AntiChrist crowns himself God in the Temple. "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never shall be."
What happens after the AntiChrist sits in the Temple? The Great Tribulation. Then what happens? Matt24, Daniel 7-12, 2Thess2. The Gathering. The Rapture. Therefore, according to what has been said in the cited passages, when is the Rapture?
First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.
So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.
However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Rev7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."
The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.
No apology needed. It just seemed sort of odd when I saw that because all your previous posts have all been very cordial. I have actually had that happen to one of my posts where things got added in that I did not type.
I think the most important thing concerning the rapture is that we both agree that there will be a rapture. We don't have to agree with each other on the time.
There are Pre/Mid/Post rapture believers and they all have scripture to back up why they take one of those three positions.
Like I said to Bob, I don't have an issue with whatever of the three positions someone chooses to take.
In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.
If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible
The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST
17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
In Rev. 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!
the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.
I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and I have never once made the claim that there is a second phase of the first resurrection listed in Revelation 20:4-6. Did someone tell you that? There is only one rapture of the church and it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and it takes place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. That is my understanding, and not just mine, but many others.
If you want to believe you will go through God's wrath during the tribulation period, if it happens during our lifetime, I don't have a problem with that. Really, I don't. I don't know why it would bother you that I believe in a pre-trib rapture? From my understanding in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us believers unto wrath, so I do not believe that God is going to pour His judgment out on any believer.
Again, if you believe you're going to be there when His wrath is being poured out, I don't have an issue with that. If I may ask, since you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, are you mid-trib, or post-trib? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with what you are saying. And I hope you are not accusing me of adding to the bible. You are also in disagreement with me, but I would never make such an accusation against anyone for simply disagreeing with my understanding.
We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?
In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation. If you find it let me know.
Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Jesse no one believed in pre trib until 1830 AD believe what you wish but it makes a difference. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt it. Question: How many million Christian died in communism the last 100 years?
Why is the rapture a hotly contested thing? That is a great question Bob. We could also ask why do we disagree on anything the Bible has to say? Believers disagree on all sorts of things that the Bible teaches.
I think disagreements become hotly contested when those in disagreement with each other take the attitude of "I'm right, and you're wrong." It's called human pride. We take our understanding of scripture and we turn ourselves into "Bible scholars." You know, it's like the "Thus saith Jesse," or "Thus saith Bob" approach.
I think another reason why believers disagree with each other so often is because we study our English bibles, and English is such a general language, much like Hebrew.
We can come away with multiple meanings on what the English text is saying because there are multiple meanings to English words. Honestly, I think that's why we have so many denominational churches out there. It's because people can't agree on what the English text is saying.
I think it was God's design that our New Testament be originally written in Greek. Greek is the most exact language there is, and you don't come away with multiple meanings on what the text is saying like we do with the English.
Anyways, that's my thoughts on your question.
I am curious though. If the Tribulation period comes in our lifetime, what will your role be during those 7 years? I don't think it will be to spread the gospel. God already has a plan for that. What will be your function on this earth when God's wrath is being poured out?
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If anyone chooses to disbelieve that the woman here is the bride of Christ, that is on them. well if there is show me from the scriptures please I want to know.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE one in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
There is only one bride, there is not a Jewish bride and another Christian Gentile brideS
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Getting killed for Christ is not the wrath of God, otherwise Stephen, the prophets and the apostles who were killed suffered the wrath of God which is ridiculous.
Noah was saved in the flood, Daniel was saved in the Lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children were saved in the furnace.
God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked world, just like the plagues of Egypt. God's children did not suffer the plagues of Egypt and neither will his children in the tribulation who survive the wrath of the Satan.
You should do a little history on the fate of the millions of Christians murdered in Communist Russia under Stalin.
All we hear about is the 6 million.
Additionally, is there a relationship between the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord?
Please, show me your timeline of events recorded in Scripture about the End Time? I will list mine below. Please clarify. Thanks.
1. THE ANTICHRIST. Daniel 7-12
Daniel 9:27 - And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.
2. THE ANTICHRIST EXALTS HIMSELF OVER GOD IN THE TEMPLE.
Matthew 24:15 - when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation
3. THE GREAT TRIBUALTION.
Matthew 24:21 - at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world
Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 20:4 - I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the Beast.
4. THE COMING OF CHRIST and RAPTURE.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him
Matthew 24:3 - when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation
Daniel 7:13 - and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven
1 Thessalonians 4 - we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds
Mark 13:26 - At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.d And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
Revelation 18:4, - Come out of her, My people.
19:1f For the marriage of the Lamb.
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